I think we should also consider the effect skills have on a dropsuit.

Basic level player:

Armor Plating I
Dropsuit Armor Upgrades I

+5% base dropsuit armor HP, + 2% armor module HP

Combat Rifle Proficiency 0
Augmented Ammo 0

+15% damage vs armor

Proto level player:

Armor Plating 5
Dropsuit Armor Upgrades 5

+25% base dropsuit armor HP, + 10% armor module HP

Combat Rifle Proficiency 5
Augmented Ammo 5

+35% damage vs armor

Just with these two players in the exact same same loadout, the vet gets 20% more hp from their suit and 8% more hp from their modules, and does 20% more damage. How many more shots does the newberry have to land on the vet (edit: compared to the vet on the newberry) to take them out? What other FPSs can you think of that give vets such an advantage?

"But that's just the way of New Eden"

This system works in Eve because you can pick your fights. There is no d-scan to see what's in that plex in Dust. There is no pulling range and warping off in Dust. You fight against who and whatever Scotty tells you to.

I realize this won't be a popular opinion but to me it's just crazy for Dust to not have some sort of mode where all stats are equalized. A mode where I don't have to think 'did I just die because I got outplayed or because that guy just has more hp and does more damage than me?'

---

I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem.

I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers.

Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has:
288 Shield HP
271 Armor HP
and does:
24 HP/round damage to Shield
32.8 HP/round damage to Armor

Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has:
335.1 Shield HP
314.5 Armor HP
and does:
25.2 HP/round damage to shield
39.6 HP/round damage to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds

Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top.

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Looks like today is going to be a numbers day for me. Keep in mind that what I outlined almost never happens, that is a vet going into a pub in STD gear.

Keeping the new player in STD gear (because let's face it, isk and SP limits are real for them) and;

Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at ADV level gives them:
372.5 Shield HP
347.5 Armor HP
and they do:
27.3 HP/round to Shield
43.1 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (372.5/24) + (347.5/32.8) =~ 26.1 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/27.3) + (271/43.1) =~ 16.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in ADV gear needs to land about 55% more shots to come out on top.

Now things get nasty
Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at PRO level gives them:
407.7 Shield HP
402.5 Armor HP
and they do:
30.45 HP/round to Shield
46.8 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/30.45) + (271/46.8) =~ 15.2 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear needs to land about 93% more shots to come out on top.


I admit this is a rare(ish) case, but if the vet puts on their try hard pants and pulls out an officer weapon:

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/33.6) + (271/51.5) =~ 13.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear with an OFC weapon needs to land about 112% more shots to come out on top.

To the OP. People wouldn't risk their proto/officer gear even half as much if they aren't squaded up ( other than Thales ect. ) prolly never officer gear solo.

One or two people running good gear won't cause a stomp, squading in pubs is much more powerful. Most people will never know the feeling of seeing 12+ people from the same Corp opposing them in pubs... I saw it for years.

The playerbase is to small to divide it further. Get rid of fire teams in pubs and people will be forced to play what they can afford. Just because some people want to go full lemming at the objective and don't care about strategy because they only run cheap gear dosnt mean we all want to play that way. This isn't call of duty **** costs isk.

I agree that this is a problem, a fairly big one earlier in the game's life. I have often wondered why the bonuses are not more flattened. For example, EVE did a massive re-work on their skills. It used to be that X Missile Operation would give you 2% damage per level and X Missile Specialization gave you like 5% more damage per level. Now Operation was an easier skill to level than Specialization, so it was easy to get a small benefit and very hard to get the huge benefit. The change made it to where the easier skill would give you the bigger number and the harder skill the smaller number. They did it with most weapon skills.

DUST could certainly do the same thing. Buff Shield, Armor, CPU, and PG on Suits but lower the effectiveness on Engineering, Electronics, and the skills that govern defensive stats. It would mean that the difference between "I have 2 million SP" and "I have 15 million SP unspent because I have everything I want" would be smaller but one would still clearly be better. Engineering would be nerfed to be only 10% PG rather than 25% but every suit would have a PG buff so that Level 5 Engineering would be the same but people with lower skills invested would have a bigger benefit.

The change can also be done by front loading skills. The first level would give you 50% of the total bonus and the next 4 levels would fill in the rest. IE, Engineering would give 12.5% more PG at level 1 but levels 2, 3, 4, and 5 would only give 3.125%. Total is still 25%.



And if DUST weren't fully dependent on like 2,200ish veterans that continue to play, I think it would be a bigger concern. There are virtually no new players coming into the game. Anyone who is still playing this game at this point is a veteran. The people that are still playing have probably been playing long enough to have amassed enough money to run prototype. It is the same thing that happened to me when I finally realized "Why am I still using Standard gear when I have 80,000,000 ISK?" That wasn't "locked PC" or "playing in Squads"; that was just "I played the game long enough that it built up." If my mediocre ass can do it, I assure that anyone can.

Trying to help the newer player now is like trying to figure out the best way to prevent white rhinos from killing people; there is a larger concern here.

While I appreciate the math in the OP, the TTK disparity between a given newbro and a given vet is not necessarily a "constant" shared among all newbros and vets. HP levels vary by class, by tier and by loadout. A PRO Assault unit, for example, can fit high-end HP modules whereas a STD Assault unit cannot. Directly buffing shield extenders, for example, would benefit both the PRO and STD Cal Assault units, though the PRO unit would benefit by greater degree as the delta at complex tier would exceed that at standard or advanced tier. And compared to a Cal Commando, for instance, our Cal Assault units would benefit by far greater degree, due to difference in slot count between the two classes.

Adjustments to TTK -- whether up or down -- do not impact all classes, loadouts and tiers by the same degree.

Ever seen sax's video " one squad 140 kills " yeah totally not a thing.

MAKE IT HAPPEN MAKE IT HAPPEN MAKE IT HAPPEN

lol Today I was playing a match, then I realized there was a protostomp team on the other end. At the end of the game, I mailed him asking not to use proto gear in pubs, and told him that he was ruining the game. He gave me the classic middle finger. I was laughing because this guy got all his points from Warbarges and Core Locuses, and he told me to F off. This guy xD

If you have only been playing for 2 months, then I need to step up my forum game. You've got more likes than me xD

We can normalize hp modules like weapons,
Std module
adv module + 7%
Pro module + 3% (or just 10% more than std)

This means that a pro suit fit the same as a Std suit but pro, will have 10% more hp and damage

We can change proficiency to reduce counter profile loss instead of bonusing its profile damage

Eg: combat rifle proficiency
3% damage to armor per level
Becomes
+3% reduction to shield penalty per level
(20%reduction per level)
Eg: laser rifle
3% damage to shields per level
Becomes
+4% reduction to armor penalty per level
(20% reduction per level)

2 months and you'r complaining Jesus. I was complaining about proto stomps 2 years ago. I now have the experience to form an opinion.

You have no idea how much more balanced it is now than then. Ever been Thales (or rail turret or missiled for that matter) sniped from 599m? I have. I doubt you even have all your core skills, one suit, one weapon, a sidearm, and one piece of equipment to max.

2 months and you even think for one second you know this game better than someone who has earned over 250 million sp solo?

Your knowledge of the game is ****, you don't know what the **** your talking about. I've tried to point out the real problem but your a moron. I may just delete all my low end fittings (3/4 of my fits) and build just proto and officer fits only just to spite you personally.

Ever seen the first dust advertising videos... PvE is the main reason I started playing... It will never happen.

Was here long before you, il be here long after.

Because any suit encountering a handful of randoms will still get melted. A squad however can choose to have a buffer tanked slayer and a logi with them.

The tactical advantages of teamwork in this game are far more important than any individual fit. A squad of 100 million SP players should have almost every role covered. They become a highly flexible lawn mower for unsquaded players.

If you really double down and think about it, there are many factors that play into the imbalance of games.

• For one, there are the exploits in which higher tiered players can get put in a match vs lower tiered players just from having a low tier player as their squad leader.
• Another issue is that of Scotty randomly filling matches because there is such a huge divide between solo players vs squads. If we had a mechanic for solo players to queue into matches where there are only other solo players that would be a viable fix and also a means for actually testing the theory that "squads are too op"
• Toss in the next issue being that people don't usually run conventional suits in pubs. Lezbehonest....pubs are a breeding ground for testing which fits work vs which don't.
• Along with the point above, lets look into the fact that I can GUARANTEE that close to half of the player base don't know what a proper fit looks like for their racial class.
• Lets also take a look at the fact that people test other roles that may have piqued their interests and don't quite understand how the role is actually SUPPOSED to be played.
• Then there are people with absolutely no brain that don't understand you have to pay attention to what's going on around you and adapt to various situations.
• There are also people who have good gun game, and those who can't aim to save their lives and Auto Aim can't even help them. (Telling these players to give up or quit is not a solution, maybe we should be encouraging them to try another role such as uplink deployment, or speed hacking, or even just a transport role. Fly an ADS or drive an LAV around with a mobile CRU)
• Among many other reasons I won't continue to list, there is the fact that MANY don't understand tactics or how certain maps are supposed to be played. This has EVERYTHING to do with the way you approach the objective(s) to flanking, to uplink deployment (i hate you assholes who put uplinks super high on towers right above the enemy where the only way to get down is hopping down into a whole mass of red)

The list honestly goes on and on, but what it comes down to is a need for compromise on both ends. Adding in a seperate solo mode and also the community stepping up to help the noobs out.

I gave some fresh newbie a Spartan Assault BPO so that he could see a semi-decent fit on a Gal Assault, but also so that he could make some money and take all the risks he wanted with no penalty (but only to his KDR which is not evenrelevant statistic)

We're to busy bending your mom like an accordion... How's her back?

I agree with you but chill man, chill.

Chill out dudes. Everyone has their reasons for thinking what they think.

I can see where the people that say squads contribute to pubstomping are coming from - If you know your mate is going to run proto then you're more likely to yourself. Apart from shared scans, any other advantages that squads give (communication, organizing roles, etc.) are not unique to Dust and so are unlikely to be a contributor to pubstomping. So if tiers were locked then squads in Dust would function as they do in every other fps and IMO wouldn't need changing/removing. Having said that, I do agree that a solo queue would give Scotty a better chance at balancing matches as far as MU goes.

Oh, so your reference point about proto and standard balance was from before they gave standard suits a ton of slots.

That is an irrelevant comparison.

In the game that we are actually playing that 800 hp gap doesn't exist.

What is a tryhard to you? Because the way you seem to be using it would imply that it is anyone who can afford to run better gear longer than you can.

That is not a tryhard, just someone who is doing better at the fiscal side of the game.

I'd just like to point out that:

1) Rattati has been working on excising the "power gap" from the game (slot normalization, possible power core in the future)
2) EVE has been engaging in tiericide to lessen the "power gap" (or so I've been led to believe)
3) DUSTs "power gap" was implemented by incompetent developers that are no longer working on DUST because they were bad
4) This pace is shltpost central

Carry on engaging in uncivil discourse.

You haven't tried it yet? It's awesome. At range it is completely useless but up close it is beastly.

Pro stompers don't care about the community. They care about themselves.

Also, they're are players that squad up and step up to the challenge against pro stompers. I do it all the time with a strong squad. Those stompers hate me, or any player with the backbone to fight back in equal gear.

They claim they want new players, and want the game to grow. In reality they don't want a challenge. They just want more targets, and shorter Queues lol!

That's why alot of them run mods. They're not actually that good. If they were they wouldn't mod. It's really quite simple.

What's broken in this game more than proto stomping is the lack of team work! Before complaining about stomps get in squad ffs! You guys cry about this solo mode bs because you lack teamwork and tactics. You don't want to think or slow down enough to work together. You should see some of these "PC" teams now lol! Guys substituting tactics and teamwork for mods and glitches lol!

I call it the domination syndrome! If anything, every mode should have friendly fire! I mean just the other day I was playing a PC where I was thankful I was Gallente for my rep bonus lol! I had pubstars leaping around with Mass drivers and Bons shotguns smh. I spent more time running away from undisciplined panic fire than I did the enemy lol ...

P.F.T.C. ... CCP, every noobs isn't ready for every weapon. There should be a certain level of tactical play reached before you can unlock bon's, core Nade, and MD's lol! Js

The playerbase lacks tactics and control, especially in PC. I got it, guys have mods and use glitches, but it doesn't make them unstoppable. I believe it causes lag, but all these overly biased tech wannabes keep claiming it's all CCP's fault lol! *shrugs*

All things equal, if they didn't use mods alot of you will still lose because you never work together in the 1st darn place?! You run pubs all day, mostly dom, then squad up 16 deep, tell dumb*ss jokes, make stupid racial comments, and lose horribly?! Promptly after getting completely redlined you return to dom to make yourself feel better by camping a roof with a MD lol!

While you're complaining about guys who proto stomp, you've failed to realized your true problem. A serious lack of communication!

I've been running with friends, conversing, and helping some newer players with fits and tactics in my channel "fighthouse". Anyone can join and chit chat. Everyone is welcome! All I ask is keep the topics on the game, and the hate to a minimum. For vets who truly want to help new players, or players looking for solid advice. The chat isn't password protected, and is open to anyone.

In the last couple of days we've discussed tons of tactics, dropsuits, and vehicles. Helping me, or really me helping him, is Tread loudly 2 and a few others dropping in and out. We just discuss tactics and run squad. Talk about all sorts of stuff, and I've found out that alot of players just don't know tons! To any new players out there... READ THE STATS!

Look if you guys are looking for an easy game go play COD.... or play dom?!

If you want to get into some challenging fights learn to work as a team, and play FW and PC.

All I ask is you don't take away the game the rest of us love because you're too lazy to read, and too socially awkward to squad.

Now I know the modding is a nuisance, believe me, but honestly you guys allow it more than CCP! Just don't play with or against them. *shrugs*

Guys complain about guys leaving battle, but honestly I don't blame them sometimes. I'm not playing repeated matches against kaizuka sniper lol! Not gone happen. He's gotta log off at some point, and dust isn't my job. When he's gone or bored of waiting for someone to cheat, he'll leave. *shrugs*

While we wait for CCP to realize the playerbase is dwindling, let's help mitigate the bs. It may take CCP awhile to realize the community is against such activity. It took them forever to figure out that the community actually wanted to keep this game alive lol! So bare with them on the issue.

In the meantime just know that some poor saps in this game have been tricked, like black people and nikes, into believing KD is more than just a number on the TV screen lol! Let em have it I say!

If you want the game to be better than help out, and stop complaining just to complain.

Good job playerbase.

Soraya 2.0 only worse. Let's make Dust only appeal to people who hate themselves and want fun to come in the form of misery and grinding.

And let's be clear kids. This guy does not play Dust. He has no idea how these things are affecting gameplay aside from a spreadsheet shared with him by CCP. Honestly can you imagine how hard it would be for most of this playerbase if the only thing they could do for ISK generation was militia gear in pub matches? Oh yeah, we saw that for 2.5 years. It was clear for a long time that the only people that could afford to step up their gear were players willing to spend lots of AUR or had ridiculous KDRs, now that that's not the case some dude who doesn't even play Dust wants to take it all away.

Why not take babby steps into fixing that MLT/STD/ADV/Proto/Officer disparity like is currently being done with Officer gear?
Have mechanics in place to drain the current supply SLOWLY OVER TIME and incentivizing a switch to tiericide. If there was a proper market with Buy & Sell orders like EVE has, I think this process could be sped up to spread out the current supply of gear among many players whom will then use it up, as opposed to powerful gear being in the hands of few that drain it slowly.
TLDR, have mechanics to very slowly get rid of the currently existing gear and incentivize switching to a tiericide model

The people advocating for stripping the game down want a free call of duty clone with poor performance, sloppy controls, and bad maps I guess.