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[Suggesting] Kindly Buff Scouts

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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8803	Posted - 2015.04.16 21:49:00 - [1] - Quote Or nerf Assaults. The imbalance is plain as day from my POV; the tougher the fight, the more obvious the imbalance. I can only imagine that kill/spawn efficiency data is showing same as market data. It shouldn't take much. Dialing back Assault mobility will probably do the trick. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood Rise Of Legion. 329	Posted - 2015.04.16 22:10:00 - [2] - Quote Assault assaulting? Head on 1v1? Hard fight for the lighter guy? Idk man... Feels about right tbh. ....... Cal assault gets a nerf in that too... Yknow how sad it'll be? :(( The ADS tourney! Join today!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8806	Posted - 2015.04.16 22:36:00 - [3] - Quote Shamarskii Simon wrote: Assault assaulting? Assaults can be the very best at their performing role without being OP, just like HMG Heavies. Shamarskii Simon wrote: Head on 1v1? Hard fight for the lighter guy? I've been at this for awhile, but if you want to tell me I'm doing it wrong, I won't try to persuade you otherwise. Shamarskii Simon wrote: Idk man... Feels about right tbh. If Assault kill/spawn efficiency looks anything like usage rates, something's going to have to give. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace Ready to Play 320	Posted - 2015.04.16 22:46:00 - [4] - Quote Hey! quit trying to jump to the front of the queue! -A logi in the "Getting buffed 'Soon' line." The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8806	Posted - 2015.04.16 22:49:00 - [5] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Hey! quit trying to jump to the front of the queue! -A logi in the "Getting buffed 'Soon' line." Agreed. Buffing Scouts isn't the optimal path. Gently nerfing Assaults would be more efficient. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Godin Thekiller Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 3095	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:05:00 - [6] - Quote OR Scouts should be based on doing actual Scout work, and EWAR. It's great to see people moving faster. I just wish the game supported this kind of movement more. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8807	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:14:00 - [7] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: OR Scouts should be based on doing actual Scout work, and EWAR. It's great to see people moving faster. I just wish the game supported this kind of movement more. I must've missed the part where Rattati reversed Scout EWAR nerfs, removed Falloff, removed team share from Active Scanners, replaced the GalLogi bonus, and added Recon Assist WP for Scout Passive Scans. When did all that happen? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5887	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:16:00 - [8] - Quote Hmmmm I dunno. While this is entirely anecdotal, I find myself being killed by Scouts far more often than I do Assaults. The issue I seem to be encountering the most is wiggle wiggle strafing fits, namely scouts and Min Assaults. Other assaults seem to be fairly balanced against what I typically use which is the Commando. They're a bit on the strong side vs Commando, but that's more of a commando problem than Assault. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8810	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:36:00 - [9] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Hmmmm I dunno. While this is entirely anecdotal, I find myself being killed by Scouts far more often than I do Assaults. The issue I seem to be encountering the most is wiggle wiggle strafing fits, namely scouts and Min Assaults. Other assaults seem to be fairly balanced against what I typically use which is the Commando. They're a bit on the strong side vs Commando, but that's more of a commando problem than Assault. o/ Pokey There's an entirely different dynamic at play in Scout v Commando and Scout v Assault. I'd argue that Commandos are UP in that their HP levels do not appropriately reflect their significant mobility limitations and EWAR ineptitude. Assaults, on the other hand, are often tankier than Commandos, move at substantially higher speeds and need only fit one precision enhancer to have shot at detecting and parrying a sneak attack before it even happens. I can count on one hand the number of times per day a good Commando successfully parries my shotgun flank attack. By contrast, taking out a good Assault player from behind is a toss up. Even when I'm successful, my position has been compromised to all of his squadmates. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5890	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:53:00 - [10] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Hmmmm I dunno. While this is entirely anecdotal, I find myself being killed by Scouts far more often than I do Assaults. The issue I seem to be encountering the most is wiggle wiggle strafing fits, namely scouts and Min Assaults. Other assaults seem to be fairly balanced against what I typically use which is the Commando. They're a bit on the strong side vs Commando, but that's more of a commando problem than Assault. o/ Pokey There's an entirely different dynamic at play in Scout v Commando and Scout v Assault. I'd argue that Commandos are UP in that their HP levels do not appropriately reflect their significant mobility limitations and EWAR ineptitude. Assaults, on the other hand, are often tankier than Commandos, move at substantially higher speeds and need only fit one precision enhancer to have shot at detecting and parrying any sneak attack before it even happens. I can count on one hand the number of times per day a good Commando successfully parries my shotgun flank attack. Taking out a decent Assault from behind is a toss up; against good players, I get turned on and smashed as often as I don't. Even when I'm successful, the engagements are almost always protracted and my position is compromised to his squadmates. I'm not saying that killing from behind should be easy; I'm saying that Assaults have too much going for them right now. I strongly suspect that their Kill/Spawn efficiency will back up my observations. If I'm right, I'd recommend addressing the mobility factor first. HP and Speed must share an inverse relationship; when they don't, we get FoTM. See MN Assault. Agreed, Commandos need some work so my personal experience is of course skewed by running a UP suit. I suppose the point I was getting at is that I tend to die more often from a scout than I do an assault, mostly due to struggling to deal with strafing speed. It's actually what has driven me to use the Mass Driver on the Minmmando because its the most effective counter to high strafe fits. I have heard that Rattati is working on some grand HP to Mobility ratio which will hopefully address some of the concerns I think we both have. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 784	Posted - 2015.04.17 00:01:00 - [11] - Quote As an Amarr assault I die to scouts more than any other class. Also anecdotal -- but no less true.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8811	Posted - 2015.04.17 00:03:00 - [12] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I have heard that Rattati is working on some grand HP to Mobility ratio which will hopefully address some of the concerns I think we both have. CCP Rattati wrote: I want each frame to have mass, each module to have mass, and speed is dynamically related to mass. base speed = 6 at zero mass Scout = 100 (could substitute mass for hp) base speed 100/X = 5.2 plate = 10 1 plate = 10% speed reduction 5 plates = 50% reduction new speed = base speed * penalty Sentinel = 500 base speed = 500/X = 4.5 plate = 10 1 plate = 2% speed reduction 5 plates = 10% reduction new speed = base speed * penalty penalty wouldn't have to be linear I already have some calculations and ideas without a true encumbrance model, I can share that Posted: 2014.12.03 05:31 I don't know that such a model would be well received. I imagine there are a great number of players who enjoy moving fast while pushing 800HP. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8811	Posted - 2015.04.17 00:07:00 - [13] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: As an Amarr assault I die to scouts more than any other class. Also anecdotal -- but no less true. I ran AM Assault for a 'bit last month. To be frank, you've got no excuse if you're dying to Scouts in that suit. Run a precision enhancer, grab a vanilla scrambler rifle and pay attention. With balance as it is today, you should be killing the Scouts who get the drop on you 2x to 3x more often than they kill you. If you aren't keen on watching your TacNet, MyoFibs come in handy as well. Get shotgunned in the back. Hop away. Inst-melt the Scout. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 356	Posted - 2015.04.17 00:27:00 - [14] - Quote Undoing the cloak nerfs would put them in perfect balance IMO. Or perfect imbalance, which is optimal. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8816	Posted - 2015.04.17 00:31:00 - [15] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Undoing the cloak nerfs would put them in perfect balance IMO. Which Cloak Nerfs? * Reduced Profile Bonus * Reduced Duration * Decloak Delay * Cloak Blind Fire-from-cloak was a serious problem. TacNet immune, 600+ HP GalScouts were too. In my opinion, Mass:Movement tradeoffs would make for a better fix (meaning, nerf Assault mobility). Returning Scouts to an OP state won't magically balance Assaults; there are other units to consider. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 359	Posted - 2015.04.17 00:33:00 - [16] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Undoing the cloak nerfs would put them in perfect balance IMO. Which Cloak Nerfs? * Reduced Profile Bonus * Reduced Duration * Decloak Delay * Cloak Blind Fire-from-cloak was a serious problem. In my opinion, Mass:Movement tradeoffs would make for a better fix. Fire from cloak was a serious problem when people could be 1 shotted. I was thinking all of those TBH other than perhaps duration. Current duration is fine as is IMO. But I also haven't run a cloak in ages...damn things hurt more than help, esp. with the fire delay. You're a free goddamn kill. EDIT:If switch was reduced a lot, and profile bonus buffed, I think that would be a great start. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Godin Thekiller Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 3095	Posted - 2015.04.17 00:38:00 - [17] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: OR Scouts should be based on doing actual Scout work, and EWAR. It's great to see people moving faster. I just wish the game supported this kind of movement more. I must've missed the part where Rattati reversed Scout EWAR nerfs, removed Falloff, removed team share from Active Scanners, replaced the GalLogi bonus, and added Recon Assist WP for Scout Passive Scans. When did all that happen? You're stating scanning changes, I said EWAR. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8816	Posted - 2015.04.17 00:46:00 - [18] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: OR Scouts should be based on doing actual Scout work, and EWAR. It's great to see people moving faster. I just wish the game supported this kind of movement more. I must've missed the part where Rattati reversed Scout EWAR nerfs, removed Falloff, removed team share from Active Scanners, replaced the GalLogi bonus, and added Recon Assist WP for Scout Passive Scans. When did all that happen? You're stating scanning changes, I said EWAR. If not scanning, what exactly do you mean by Scout work and EWAR? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 2054	Posted - 2015.04.17 01:46:00 - [19] - Quote Shamarskii Simon wrote: Assault assaulting? Head on 1v1? Hard fight for the lighter guy? Idk man... Feels about right tbh. ....... Cal assault gets a nerf in that too... Yknow how sad it'll be? :(( Oh look, assaults are for assaulting right? Therefore assaults should be THE best beast mode assault machine to a point nobody comes even close. Okay. Scouts are for Scouting I guess? Explain me one thing, how does a scout get WP for scouting? Also, Assault suits are almost equal to scouts in EWAR capabilities while retaining twice as much HP. Seems like the only thing scouts have is a cloak which is also useless AF because snipers can get headshots on cloaked scouts from hundreds of meters away. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18301	Posted - 2015.04.17 02:05:00 - [20] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Shamarskii Simon wrote: Assault assaulting? Head on 1v1? Hard fight for the lighter guy? Idk man... Feels about right tbh. ....... Cal assault gets a nerf in that too... Yknow how sad it'll be? :(( Oh look, assaults are for assaulting right? Therefore assaults should be THE best beast mode assault machine to a point nobody comes even close. Okay. Scouts are for Scouting I guess? Explain me one thing, how does a scout get WP for scouting? Also, Assault suits are almost equal to scouts in EWAR capabilities while retaining twice as much HP. Seems like the only thing scouts have is a cloak which is also useless AF because snipers can get headshots on cloaked scouts from hundreds of meters away. Scan Stuff, Hack Stuff, Knife the occasional guy, set traps, yell **** at the assault to get their arses in gear and steal their kills. Pretty much how I'd do it. GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8819	Posted - 2015.04.17 02:13:00 - [21] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Scan Stuff Assaults out-slay all else. Heavies out-tank all else. Logis out-support all else. Do Scouts out-scan all else? Inner Rings are all more or less created equal; run a precision enhancer or two, and spot anything and everything that gets within 5 or so meters of you. Similarly, Outer Rings are all more or less created equal; if a unit makes any effort to dampen, that unit will not be picked up by your Outer Rings. So it must be the Middle Ring that sets the Scout apart from the pack. I'd argue a single Active Scanner scanner can provide higher quality recon than any Recon Scout's Middle Ring. Enter the GalLogi, and there is truly no comparison. If scans are intended to set Scouts apart, then scans need to be overhauled. And in that overhaul, we must work in WP for passive recon. And after the overhaul, "role bleed" will remain in that anything a Recon Scout can do, a GalLogi can do far better. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18303	Posted - 2015.04.17 02:19:00 - [22] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: Scan Stuff Logis out-support all else Assaults out-slay all else Heavies out-tank all else Do Scouts out-scan all else? Inner Rings are all more or less created equal; run a precision enhancer or two, and spot everything that gets within 5 or so meters. Outer Rings are all more or less created equal; if a unit makes any effort to dampen, that unit will not be picked up in Outer Rings. So is the Middle Ring that sets the Scout apart from the pack? I'd argue a single Active Scanner scanner out-recons any recon Scout. Enter the GalLogi, and there is truly no comparison. If scans are intended to set Scouts apart, then I believe scans need to be overhauled. You don't have to be the best at something to get WP and contribute. I'd dispute the out slay all else. Assault players are your bro's who don't really have the best of anything, just are close to everything, at least scouts have visual cloaking, very potent biotic modules, and adaptability over most other classes. GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8819	Posted - 2015.04.17 02:24:00 - [23] - Quote True Adamance wrote: You don't have to be the best at something to get WP and contribute. I'd dispute the out slay all else. Assault players are your bro's who don't really have the best of anything, just are close to everything, at least scouts have visual cloaking, very potent biotic modules, and adaptability over most other classes. I agree with you in that cloaking is the one and only thing that sets Scouts apart. Most Newbro Scouts can't fit it. Most veteran Scouts won't run it. There's work to be done there as well. So many little things to tune to bring these units up-to-speed with Assaults. And the same goes for Logis and Commandos. We could tune lots and lots of things, or we could Assault Mobility. Why be inefficient? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 9475	Posted - 2015.04.17 02:29:00 - [24] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: Scan Stuff Logis out-support all else Assaults out-slay all else Heavies out-tank all else Do Scouts out-scan all else? Inner Rings are all more or less created equal; run a precision enhancer or two, and spot everything that gets within 5 or so meters. Outer Rings are all more or less created equal; if a unit makes any effort to dampen, that unit will not be picked up in Outer Rings. So is the Middle Ring that sets the Scout apart from the pack? I'd argue a single Active Scanner scanner out-recons any recon Scout. Enter the GalLogi, and there is truly no comparison. If scans are intended to set Scouts apart, then I believe scans need to be overhauled. You don't have to be the best at something to get WP and contribute. I'd dispute the out slay all else. Assault players are your bro's who don't really have the best of anything, just are close to everything, at least scouts have visual cloaking, very potent biotic modules, and adaptability over most other classes. Of those things you mentioned towards the end, Assaults can use just as well, if not in many cases better, with the exception of the cloak. Which in many cases is highly visible, and given the nature of the cloak delay, becomes an overly significant draw back (The delay of switch is actually something like 3 seconds, with a decloak delay of a couple seconds, so that you are essentially visible for 1 second before being able to fire. If you are spotted while cloaked, you essentially have a 3 second delay before being able to defend yourself, all while having a fraction of the HP). This game heavily rewards HP more than EWAR in its current state. Every suit should have a role, and Scouts really don't anymore. We can neither beat all scans, nor out scan. We can't stealthily engage in CQC, nor do we have the HP to bother ambushing mercs at range. Everything we can do that is special, Assaults can do well enough that when adding their other advantages, diminishes the strategic incentives for using a Scout suit instead. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8819	Posted - 2015.04.17 02:44:00 - [25] - Quote @ OEK I could be wrong, but I don't think that Passive Scans or Recon Scouts are going make a comeback. I suspect that today's Scouts are supposed to be the squishy, sneaky, and highly mobile flank attack class. The one and only reason we aren't excelling in this capacity is Assault Mobility. Even if Falloff were to remain unchanged, if these High HP units suddenly began to move like other High HP units, we could get our licks in and get the heck out quickly enough to be competitively viable. I don't think that Scouts need to be overhauled to be unique or competitive. I suspect that all we need to do is widen the speed gap; there's a good chance that one change will fix Assault v Scout balance. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18308	Posted - 2015.04.17 04:04:00 - [26] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: True Adamance wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: Scan Stuff Logis out-support all else Assaults out-slay all else Heavies out-tank all else Do Scouts out-scan all else? Inner Rings are all more or less created equal; run a precision enhancer or two, and spot everything that gets within 5 or so meters. Outer Rings are all more or less created equal; if a unit makes any effort to dampen, that unit will not be picked up in Outer Rings. So is the Middle Ring that sets the Scout apart from the pack? I'd argue a single Active Scanner scanner out-recons any recon Scout. Enter the GalLogi, and there is truly no comparison. If scans are intended to set Scouts apart, then I believe scans need to be overhauled. You don't have to be the best at something to get WP and contribute. I'd dispute the out slay all else. Assault players are your bro's who don't really have the best of anything, just are close to everything, at least scouts have visual cloaking, very potent biotic modules, and adaptability over most other classes. Of those things you mentioned towards the end, Assaults can use just as well, if not in many cases better, with the exception of the cloak. Which in many cases is highly visible, and given the nature of the cloak delay, becomes an overly significant draw back (The delay of switch is actually something like 3 seconds, with a decloak delay of a couple seconds, so that you are essentially visible for 1 second before being able to fire. If you are spotted while cloaked, you essentially have a 3 second delay before being able to defend yourself, all while having a fraction of the HP). This game heavily rewards HP more than EWAR in its current state. Every suit should have a role, and Scouts really don't anymore. We can neither beat all scans, nor out scan. We can't stealthily engage in CQC, nor do we have the HP to bother ambushing mercs at range. Everything we can do that is special, Assaults can do well enough that when adding their other advantages, diminishes the strategic incentives for using a Scout suit instead. Hmmmm I suppose given your role as a scout my voice means comparatively little however I have to point out that the scanning thing I think is a little over played on your part. Yeah I get the frustration of not being able to avoid all scans when your role is stealth however in this game there must be some kind of scanner that can reveal you. There is not suit that deserves TACNET invisibility at all times under all circumstances. However I somewhat understand you dilemma, a fair few....not a lot of people have skilled permascanning Gal Scout to counter top tier scout invisibility, kind of like how everyone and their mother in this game has Wyrkomi's (and they aren't as soft as most people make them to be). I don't really want to complain though because without them though since if they didn't have them I would have an ungodly advantage over most players. GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City
The Dark Cloud The Rainbow Effect 4452	Posted - 2015.04.17 04:06:00 - [27] - Quote No. im allready getting more then enough times shotgunned in the back. Do not want to make the scout population higher then it allready is. I make the scrubs scream and the vets cry.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 614	Posted - 2015.04.17 04:19:00 - [28] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Or nerf Assaults. The imbalance is plain as day from my POV; the tougher the fight, the more obvious the imbalance. I can only imagine that kill/spawn efficiency data is mirroring usage data. It shouldn't take much. Dialing back Assault mobility would be a great start, and might just do the trick. I think the only assault with too much mobility is the minmatar, and that mobility nerf could be accomplished by nerfing its stam gain (and buffing amarr scout base speeds)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8822	Posted - 2015.04.17 04:25:00 - [29] - Quote True Adamance wrote: One Eyed King wrote: True Adamance wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: Scan Stuff Logis out-support all else Assaults out-slay all else Heavies out-tank all else Do Scouts out-scan all else? Inner Rings are all more or less created equal; run a precision enhancer or two, and spot everything that gets within 5 or so meters. Outer Rings are all more or less created equal; if a unit makes any effort to dampen, that unit will not be picked up in Outer Rings. So is the Middle Ring that sets the Scout apart from the pack? I'd argue a single Active Scanner scanner out-recons any recon Scout. Enter the GalLogi, and there is truly no comparison. If scans are intended to set Scouts apart, then I believe scans need to be overhauled. You don't have to be the best at something to get WP and contribute. I'd dispute the out slay all else. Assault players are your bro's who don't really have the best of anything, just are close to everything, at least scouts have visual cloaking, very potent biotic modules, and adaptability over most other classes. Of those things you mentioned towards the end, Assaults can use just as well, if not in many cases better, with the exception of the cloak. Which in many cases is highly visible, and given the nature of the cloak delay, becomes an overly significant draw back (The delay of switch is actually something like 3 seconds, with a decloak delay of a couple seconds, so that you are essentially visible for 1 second before being able to fire. If you are spotted while cloaked, you essentially have a 3 second delay before being able to defend yourself, all while having a fraction of the HP). This game heavily rewards HP more than EWAR in its current state. Every suit should have a role, and Scouts really don't anymore. We can neither beat all scans, nor out scan. We can't stealthily engage in CQC, nor do we have the HP to bother ambushing mercs at range. Everything we can do that is special, Assaults can do well enough that when adding their other advantages, diminishes the strategic incentives for using a Scout suit instead. Hmmmm I suppose given your role as a scout my voice means comparatively little however I have to point out that the scanning thing I think is a little over played on your part. Yeah I get the frustration of not being able to avoid all scans when your role is stealth however in this game there must be some kind of scanner that can reveal you. There is not suit that deserves TACNET invisibility at all times under all circumstances. However I somewhat understand you dilemma, a fair few....not a lot of people have skilled permascanning Gal Scout to counter top tier scout invisibility, kind of like how everyone and their mother in this game has Wyrkomi's (and they aren't as soft as most people make them to be). I don't really want to complain though because without them though since if they didn't have them I would have an ungodly advantage over most players. This reads as though you aren't up-to-date with current in-game mechanics. Avoiding detection isn't limited to dodging GalLogi scans. Any MedFrame who runs just one precision enhancer will scan even the most heavily dampened Scout before that Scout gets within optimal shotgun or knifing. That intel is relayed to all squadmates; even if the medframe dies, the Scout's position was still compromised. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18311	Posted - 2015.04.17 04:27:00 - [30] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: This reads as though you aren't up-to-date with current in-game mechanics. Avoiding detection isn't limited to dodging GalLogi scans. Any MedFrame who runs just one precision enhancer will scan even the most heavily dampened Scout before that Scout gets within optimal shotgun or knifing. That intel is relayed to all squadmates; even if the medframe dies, the Scout's position was still compromised. For realsies? GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8822	Posted - 2015.04.17 04:32:00 - [31] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: This reads as though you aren't up-to-date with current in-game mechanics. Avoiding detection isn't limited to dodging GalLogi scans. Any MedFrame who runs just one precision enhancer will scan even the most heavily dampened Scout before that Scout gets within optimal shotgun or knifing. That intel is relayed to all squadmates; even if the medframe dies, the Scout's position was still compromised. For realsies? Are you being serious? I have lots of math for you if so: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zVbDLXDU5gpKjx1YmE9ODVYHxlE40vhNz-L7gBTcY4Y/edit This has been the case since December. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18312	Posted - 2015.04.17 04:35:00 - [32] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: This reads as though you aren't up-to-date with current in-game mechanics. Avoiding detection isn't limited to dodging GalLogi scans. Any MedFrame who runs just one precision enhancer will scan even the most heavily dampened Scout before that Scout gets within optimal shotgun or knifing. That intel is relayed to all squadmates; even if the medframe dies, the Scout's position was still compromised. For realsies? Are you being serious? I have lots of math for you if so: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zVbDLXDU5gpKjx1YmE9ODVYHxlE40vhNz-L7gBTcY4Y/edit This has been the case since December. NO MATH! I YIELD! GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8822	Posted - 2015.04.17 04:38:00 - [33] - Quote True Adamance wrote: NO MATH! I YIELD! OK, without maths ... Medframe equips 1 complex precision enhancer. If he's an Assault, he now scans at 16dB out to 6 meters. If he's a Logi, he now scans at 16dB out to 8 meters. His scans are shared with his squad. Say you're a Scout, and you want to backstab this guy without blipping on his squad's TacNet ... CA Scout - Impossible MN Scout - Impossible AM Scout - Needs 4 complex damps GA Scout - Needs 3 complex damps Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8822	Posted - 2015.04.17 04:53:00 - [34] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Or nerf Assaults. The imbalance is plain as day from my POV; the tougher the fight, the more obvious the imbalance. I can only imagine that kill/spawn efficiency data is mirroring usage data. It shouldn't take much. Dialing back Assault mobility would be a great start, and might just do the trick. I think the only assault with too much mobility is the minmatar, and that mobility nerf could be accomplished by nerfing its stam gain (and buffing amarr scout base speeds) The MN Assault is no doubt the worst offender. MN Assault speed aside, the class as a whole is moving too fast. If an Assault is packing more HP than a Commando, why is he still moving so much faster than a Commando? If an Assault is running straight biotics and out-sprinting Scouts, why is doing so with > 2x the HP of a Scout? Assaults are simultaneously attaining High HP and High Mobility. There should be more of a tradeoff. Not just for MN Assaults. For all Assaults. For everyone. Uparmored Scouts included. Be fast or be tanked. Not both. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 422	Posted - 2015.04.17 08:08:00 - [35] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Or nerf Assaults. The imbalance is plain as day from my POV; the tougher the fight, the more obvious the imbalance. I'm willing to bet that kill/spawn efficiency data is mirroring usage data. It shouldn't take much. Dialing back Assault mobility would be a great start, and might just do the trick. Scouts were never supposed to be the end-all-be-all Just because your SPEEDTEST.net shows a good connection, doesn't mean you are not a lagging f*ck
Starlight Burner Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 209	Posted - 2015.04.17 08:18:00 - [36] - Quote I say no to buffing scouts. I honestly feel that most Scout users are not correctly playing the 'scout' role. A scout is not supposed to win a 1v1 head on. I usually to always win a 1v1 scout situation when taken head on in my Assualt Gk.0 suit. This is balanced correctly. I normally to frequently lose to a scout suit when they attack me from behind; however, the point in how they attack and come out of the cloak is niche skill. Is it impossible? No, just takes practice just like anything else. I get killed by scouts all the time. Normally, I always die to scouts because ain't no one got good aim. (Sorry Combat Rifle users, your OP gun does not put you in my definition of 'good' players.) I don't think scouts need a buff. I think you should run with some frequent PC Scout players. Scouts are doing just fine. Stop attacking from the front because you're supposed to be a scout. Scout definition: a soldier or other person sent out ahead of a main force so as to gather information about the enemy's position, strength, or movements. CCP Rattati, stop buffing things based on use! Unemployed, LFC Thank you CCP for DUST 514!
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 423	Posted - 2015.04.17 08:21:00 - [37] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: Scout definition: a soldier or other person sent out ahead of a main force so as to gather information about the enemy's position, strength, or movements. Passive scans with scouts were big. I hated the eWar nerf due to that Just because your SPEEDTEST.net shows a good connection, doesn't mean you are not a lagging f*ck
Haerr Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 2755	Posted - 2015.04.17 09:05:00 - [38] - Quote Scouts are fine(-ish). But I'll agree on the HP vs. Movement Speed bit, Assaults could stand to be slightly slower, Commandos could do with a slot more or a bit more HP, and Logistics could have a bit higher movement speed. Haerr's Handel GÇö Marketplace
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8136	Posted - 2015.04.17 10:09:00 - [39] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Or nerf Assaults. The imbalance is plain as day from my POV; the tougher the fight, the more obvious the imbalance. I'm willing to bet that kill/spawn efficiency data is mirroring usage data. It shouldn't take much. Dialing back Assault mobility would be a great start, and might just do the trick. Hahahahaha. No. Assaults are supposed to be the combat front line. Sentinels and scouts are support units. Get used to the idea. AV
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8844	Posted - 2015.04.17 12:10:00 - [40] - Quote SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: Scouts were never supposed to be the end-all-be-all The very same could and should be said for Assaults. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 2151	Posted - 2015.04.17 12:11:00 - [41] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: NO MATH! I YIELD! OK, without maths ... Medframe equips 1 complex precision enhancer. If he's an Assault, he now scans at 16dB out to 6 meters. If he's a Logi, he now scans at 16dB out to 8 meters. Say you're a Scout, and you want to backstab this guy without blipping on his and his entire squad's TacNet ... CA Scout - Impossible MN Scout - Impossible AM Scout - Needs 4 complex damps GA Scout - Needs 3 complex damps It's not so much the blipping on his squad's tacnet that I care about. It's up to me to have an escape route and enough stamina left to get out of dodge. I feel that is a skillful thing that comes of experience, practice and good situational awareness. What I do care about is the blipping on this guy's tacnet, rendering my skillful approach, flank and stab-twist-kill finish completely useless. Frankly, any squad worth their salt will be on comms and this guy will verbally tell everyone where he just died to the dirty scout....assuming he just died and wasn't able to utilise his First Strike mechanic to raise a middle finger and smite the dirty scout ;-) Anyway bottom line: I agree with addressing the mobility imbalance before anything else. The way that is set up feels instinctively wrong. Inverse HP <--> Mobility feels instinctively right. Apart from different class baselines, class is irrelevant. That HP module just added %age mobility penalty.
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 2151	Posted - 2015.04.17 12:20:00 - [42] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: A scout is not supposed to win a 1v1 head on. I usually to always win a 1v1 scout situation when taken head on in my Assualt Gk.0 suit. This is balanced correctly. [...] Stop attacking from the front because you're supposed to be a scout. I don't think you read or understood the argument. What I just paraphrased from you I agree with. What is being advocated is not designed to allows scouts to go frontal assault. Starlight Burner wrote: Scout definition: a soldier or other person sent out ahead of a main force so as to gather information about the enemy's position, strength, or movements. Dude you can't pull a definition from anywhere you like and say that is what it should be. If you read the DUST description it is different to this. I won't even argue for implementing what the DUST definition says. I would urge you to consider what will happen if you make the scout what you want it to be. There won't be any scouts. Nobody wants to play an FPS where they are not supposed to kill. You may not realise you made a wish, but be careful what you wish for.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8844	Posted - 2015.04.17 12:20:00 - [43] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: I say no to buffing scouts. I honestly feel that most Scout users are not correctly playing the 'scout' role ... Scout definition: a soldier or other person sent out ahead of a main force so as to gather information about the enemy's position, strength, or movements. Please read this thread. It is where Scouts requested to remain Scoutly, and were denied. Starlight Burner wrote: A scout is not supposed to win a 1v1 head on. I usually to always win a 1v1 scout situation when taken head on in my Assualt Gk.0 suit. This is balanced correctly. Agreed. The problem is that against a competent Assault unit, a 1v1 attack from behind as often as not promptly becomes a 1v1 head-on engagement. High mobility, combined with high HP and intense short range scans permits Assaults to too easily turn the table on units who get the drop on them. This is imbalanced. Starlight Burner wrote: Is it impossible? No, just takes practice just like anything else. I get killed by scouts all the time. Normally, I always die to scouts because ain't no one got good aim. Scouts are doing just fine. Stop attacking from the front because you're supposed to be a scout. Please read above. Starlight Burner wrote: I don't think scouts need a buff. I think you should run with some frequent PC Scout players. You can learn alot watching a stompsquad mop up a pub, but you won't learn much about role interplay or balance. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 2151	Posted - 2015.04.17 12:22:00 - [44] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Or nerf Assaults. The imbalance is plain as day from my POV; the tougher the fight, the more obvious the imbalance. I'm willing to bet that kill/spawn efficiency data is mirroring usage data. It shouldn't take much. Dialing back Assault mobility would be a great start, and might just do the trick. Hahahahaha. No. Assaults are supposed to be the combat front line. Sentinels and scouts are support units. Get used to the idea. Mr Breakin Stuff, I usually look at your posts and think they are objective and add to the debate, but I can't fathom where you are getting the idea that what is being advocated here is to put scouts on the combat front line. As I said to the other guy earlier, if you read and understood the argument and what is being advocated for, you would see it is not to make scouts good at frontal assaulting.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8844	Posted - 2015.04.17 12:27:00 - [45] - Quote SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: Starlight Burner wrote: Scout definition: a soldier or other person sent out ahead of a main force so as to gather information about the enemy's position, strength, or movements. Passive scans with scouts were big. I hated the eWar nerf due to that You and I both. Scout EWAR was not to blame Assault Lite out-assaulting Assault. The right path then is the same as the right path now: The more HP a unit packs, the less mobile he becomes. This would have fixed Assault Lite rolebleed then. This would fix Scout Lite rolebleed now. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8844	Posted - 2015.04.17 12:35:00 - [46] - Quote Haerr wrote: Scouts are fine(-ish). But I'll agree on the HP vs. Movement Speed bit, Assaults could stand to be slightly slower, Commandos could do with a slot more or a bit more HP, and Logistics could have a bit higher movement speed. I believe we agree on all points. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Mobius Wyvern Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 6095	Posted - 2015.04.17 15:27:00 - [47] - Quote Never again. We all remember post-1.8 when Assault Suits pretty much died out. There is no way in which an Assault Suit can be OP in its role. That's like saying your Scout suit is OP because my Assault Suit can't get scans as good as your's or fit a cloak easily. Why is current Assault mobility so offensive? Pretty sure even though I use Ferroscales that Smoky the Bear could paste me before I react, and that's from running with him in FW against full queue-syncs. I support Keshava for Gallente Specialist HAV R.I.P. Kesha
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8848	Posted - 2015.04.17 15:54:00 - [48] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Never again. We all remember post-1.8 when Assault Suits pretty much died out. No one clamored more productively for Scout nerfs than Scouts following 1.8. We probably took it too far. Mobius Wyvern wrote: There is no way in which an Assault Suit can be OP in its role. That's like saying your Scout suit is OP because my Assault Suit can't get scans as good as your's or fit a cloak easily. Just like everything else, Assaults can absolutely be "too good" at doing what they do. Assaults don't have to be broken to be the best slayers. A 300HP speedy unit shouldn't have a hard time keeping up with (or running away from) an 800HP slayer unit. When they do -- which is the case today -- one of the two units broken. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 618	Posted - 2015.04.17 16:22:00 - [49] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Or nerf Assaults. The imbalance is plain as day from my POV; the tougher the fight, the more obvious the imbalance. I can only imagine that kill/spawn efficiency data is mirroring usage data. It shouldn't take much. Dialing back Assault mobility would be a great start, and might just do the trick. I think the only assault with too much mobility is the minmatar, and that mobility nerf could be accomplished by nerfing its stam gain (and buffing amarr scout base speeds) The MN Assault is no doubt the worst offender. MN Assault speed aside, the class as a whole is moving too fast. If an Assault is packing more HP than a Commando, why is he still moving so much faster than a Commando? If an Assault is running straight biotics and out-sprinting Scouts, why is doing so with > 2x the HP of a Scout? Assaults are simultaneously attaining High HP and High Mobility. There should be more of a tradeoff. Not just for MN Assaults. For all Assaults. For everyone. Uparmored Scouts included. Be fast or be tanked. Not both. HP and Mobility should be inversely related. Current Max HP: Heavy > Assault > Commando > Logi > Scout Mobility: Heavy < Commando < Logi < Assault < Scout Suggested Max HP: Heavy > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout Mobility: Heavy < Commando < Assault < Logi < Scout How To * Add a Low Slot to Commandos (all races, all tiers) * Swap Logi and Assault base movement speeds * Slightly increase mobility penalties for vanilla and reactive plates * Add slight mobility penalties to ferroscale * Amplify plate penalties when worn by Light Frames * Reduce plate penalties when worn by Heavy Frames Back to your point, can't speak to Stamina, but I believe MN Assault base movement was entered in error and should be reduced from 5.30 to 5.20. Here are the numbers. Min stamina regen is 2.5x the regen of gallente and caldari assaults, and 1.6x (fuzzier on this number) the regen of amarr assault. I think this is a pattern that repeats on all the min suits, but is only really noticable and overpowered when paired with the high speeds of min assaults and min scouts. As for commandos, they just need a buff somehow all around, they should be premier damage dealers, but right now they are too squishy and their damage bonus does not make up for that in any meaningful way, and for the amarr commando the damage bonus is way outclassed by the heat bonus the ak.0 assault gets (which results in a far bigger damage bonus). I think the real problem with assault HP is that HP modules still have no stacking penalties for some reason. This is just mind boggling to me, if there were stacking penalties we wouldnt see all these 1.1k health assaults running around breaking the game mechanics by stacking as much health as they can. Meanwhile stacking penalties on HP mods would be an indirect buff for commandos, scouts, AND heavies that arent stacking plates. I dont understand why everything but HP has a stacking penalty, when HP is probably one of the biggest factors in game balance and stacking HP is gamebreaking and boring when alot of people do it on the same team. Edit: to clarify I'd like to see assaults generally hitting around 600-800 hp, which I think would end up being perfectly fine, scouts should be 300-500, commandos 700-900 or so, heavies 1100-1300 or so. I think the only one that doesnt fit into these numbers are assaults or bricked scouts (which would also be disallowed by diminishing returns and are ineffective anyway), so hurrah?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8849	Posted - 2015.04.17 16:48:00 - [50] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Anyway bottom line: I agree with addressing the mobility imbalance before anything else. The way that is set up feels instinctively wrong. Inverse HP <--> Mobility feels instinctively right. Apart from different class baselines, class is irrelevant. That HP module just added %age mobility penalty. Completely agree. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8849	Posted - 2015.04.17 16:53:00 - [51] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: ... to clarify I'd like to see assaults generally hitting around 600-800 hp, which I think would end up being perfectly fine, scouts should be 300-500, commandos 700-900 or so, heavies 1100-1300 or so. I think the only one that doesnt fit into these numbers are assaults or bricked scouts (which would also be disallowed by diminishing returns and are ineffective anyway), so hurrah? I'd add Logis in there somewhere between Scouts and Assaults, perhaps 400-600 range. The scale makes sense to me, so long as 800HP guys aren't running around at comparable speeds as the 300HP guys. Perhaps diminishing on plates is the way to go; perhaps increased mobility penalties for plates would work as well. I'd only add that the drawbacks of stacking plates should affect Light Frames more than Medium Frames, and Medium Frames more than Heavy Frames (or altogether exclude Heavy Frames from the drawbacks). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
DDx77 The Exemplars 200	Posted - 2015.04.17 17:55:00 - [52] - Quote Assaults are generally in a good place (cough cal kinda crappy cough minmatar slightly OP) I wouldn't go backwards with them The only thing I would "buff" for scouts is actually returning the cal and gal ewar bonus' to what they once were The minmatar may need some ewar love too ( but it is a very efficient killer so I may be very wrong here) You might be experiencing the debacle that was the scan overhaul that took place about three or four updates ago. Ratt changed the way scans well scan. It is worse now than it was imo Also the team viewing active scanner thing is hilariously bad (Gal logi ftw) These changes made the Amarr scout from great to useless virtually overnight for example . Aside from reviewing/ revising scout ewar and maybe looking at loosening the leash on the cloak I think they are in a good place May the Dark shine your way
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 620	Posted - 2015.04.17 18:25:00 - [53] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: ... to clarify I'd like to see assaults generally hitting around 600-800 hp, which I think would end up being perfectly fine, scouts should be 300-500, commandos 700-900 or so, heavies 1100-1300 or so. I think the only one that doesnt fit into these numbers are assaults or bricked scouts (which would also be disallowed by diminishing returns and are ineffective anyway), so hurrah? I'd add Logis in there somewhere between Scouts and Assaults, perhaps 400-600 range. The scale makes sense to me, so long as 800HP guys aren't running around at comparable speeds as the 300HP guys. In other words, as HP inclines along the scale Mobility should decline. Increasing plate penalties/drawbacks might work, but we'd have to be careful not to upset intra-class racial balance, overpenalize heavy frames, or underpenalize Light Frames (no one wants another round of Assault Lite). I think it'd be safer to first swap Assault and Logi speeds, then tune HP modules should additional tuning be warranted. I dont think logis belong in the speed>hp continuum, and to a lesser extent commandos dont really fit directly into it either. Reason being they are balanced by other factors. Commandos (should) have a significant damage advantage over other classes when using light weapons, and Logis have massive force multipliers when using equipment effectively. Both of these factors push them outside a raw hp vs. speed scale. In addition scouts see kind of the same effect, since their real advantage is dampening and scanning, not necessarily speed. In fact if we're talking about raw hp/speed/killing power, assaults clearly dominate scouts across the board, since you can fit x2 kincats on any assault suit, have the same number of modules remaining as a scout has base, and still have significantly higher base HP, so scouts dont really belong either. This is why I dont like the hp v. speed scale, because while I agree some classes might need to be toned up or down, I dont agree that it should be a uniform rule across all classes. Logis are fine as is. They dont need speed buffs. Commandos are **** right now. Giving them more speed isnt going to fix it. Scouts are... I dont know, they might actually need another module slot or something. But just giving them more speed or more hp or nerfing assault speed or hp isnt going to make them compete with assaults in an interesting way (i.e. not competing directly, but having a niche to excel in anyway).
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 2162	Posted - 2015.04.17 18:36:00 - [54] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: ... to clarify I'd like to see assaults generally hitting around 600-800 hp, which I think would end up being perfectly fine, scouts should be 300-500, commandos 700-900 or so, heavies 1100-1300 or so. I think the only one that doesnt fit into these numbers are assaults or bricked scouts (which would also be disallowed by diminishing returns and are ineffective anyway), so hurrah? I'd add Logis in there somewhere between Scouts and Assaults, perhaps 400-600 range. The scale makes sense to me, so long as 800HP guys aren't running around at comparable speeds as the 300HP guys. In other words, as HP inclines along the scale Mobility should decline. Increasing plate penalties/drawbacks might work, but we'd have to be careful not to upset intra-class racial balance, overpenalize heavy frames, or underpenalize Light Frames (no one wants another round of Assault Lite). I think it'd be safer to first swap Assault and Logi speeds, then tune HP modules should additional tuning be warranted. I dont think logis belong in the speed>hp continuum, and to a lesser extent commandos dont really fit directly into it either. Reason being they are balanced by other factors. Commandos (should) have a significant damage advantage over other classes when using light weapons, and Logis have massive force multipliers when using equipment effectively. Both of these factors push them outside a raw hp vs. speed scale. In addition scouts see kind of the same effect, since their real advantage is dampening and scanning, not necessarily speed. In fact if we're talking about raw hp/speed/killing power, assaults clearly dominate scouts across the board, since you can fit x2 kincats on any assault suit, have the same number of modules remaining as a scout has base, and still have significantly higher base HP, so scouts dont really belong either. This is why I dont like the hp v. speed scale, because while I agree some classes might need to be toned up or down, I dont agree that it should be a uniform rule across all classes. Logis are fine as is. They dont need speed buffs. Commandos are **** right now. Giving them more speed isnt going to fix it. Scouts are... I dont know, they might actually need another module slot or something. But just giving them more speed or more hp or nerfing assault speed or hp isnt going to make them compete with assaults in an interesting way (i.e. not competing directly, but having a niche to excel in anyway). I have to disagree with you regarding a scout's advantage is not in speed - it absolutely should be one of their strengths. They are the light class. They must play to their strengths, which should include mobility. The things I can do with a Minja at ~300HP and 10.38 m/s is absolutely a niche playstyle. I base my tactics around it.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8141	Posted - 2015.04.17 18:37:00 - [55] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Or nerf Assaults. The imbalance is plain as day from my POV; the tougher the fight, the more obvious the imbalance. I'm willing to bet that kill/spawn efficiency data is mirroring usage data. It shouldn't take much. Dialing back Assault mobility would be a great start, and might just do the trick. Hahahahaha. No. Assaults are supposed to be the combat front line. Sentinels and scouts are support units. Get used to the idea. Mr Breakin Stuff, I usually look at your posts and think they are objective and add to the debate, but I can't fathom where you are getting the idea that what is being advocated here is to put scouts on the combat front line. As I said to the other guy earlier, if you read and understood the argument and what is being advocated for, you would see it is not to make scouts good at frontal assaulting. Mr. Nothi has been adamant over the course of several threads in the assertion that Assaults should not be the most popular class, and has used purchase stats to back his position. Unfortunately for his assertion that it is unfair, Assaults ARE intended to be frontline fighters. They ARE intended to take a pounding and fight back. it's a circle of life that goes kind of like this: Assaults prey on scouts who prey on Sentinels who prey upon assaults who prey upon scouts... and everyone eats logis like hors'odeurves. I find the idea that an assault should be an easier target than a lumbering fatty for a scout to be nothing short of hilarious. Just like I find the idea that a sentinel should be able to catch a scout easily is hilarious. but unless there is some synergy, with each suit having the counterpoint, then we drop back to (insert OPness here). But the fact remains, the assault is meant to be main-line infantry. Saying that it should not be a popular option is not only hilarious, but ludicrous. Never mind if you want to kill an assault the best way isn't the shotty rush, RE or nova knife. Put a rifle on it, and creep around the field and play opportunistic ambusher. It's how I do the job when I go full crazy and run scout. It's remarkably effective. Creep to about 30-50m, aim, kill an assault, relocate. Shotguns work amazingly for sentinels, but they're no longer the omniweapon anymore. I personally feel this is a good trend. P.S. Quit trying to raptor strike me with myofibs you idiots, you're making AHMG headshot kills entirely too easy. AV
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8856	Posted - 2015.04.17 18:41:00 - [56] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: But the fact remains, the assault is meant to be main-line infantry. Saying that it should not be a popular option is not only hilarious, but ludicrous. I've never claimed that Assaults should be less popular than other classes. Most players play the role of slayer, and Assaults are the go-to slayer suit. It is natural that their usage rates outweigh those of other classes. What isn't natural is an 800HP unit running around at 9 m/s. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8141	Posted - 2015.04.17 18:42:00 - [57] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: But the fact remains, the assault is meant to be main-line infantry. Saying that it should not be a popular option is not only hilarious, but ludicrous. I've never claimed that Assaults should be less popular than other classes. Most players play the role of slayer, and Assaults should be the go-to slayer suit. It is natural that their usage rates outweigh those of other classes. What isn't natural is 800HP units moving at 9 m/s. If they could cloak, I'd agree with you. But given the interaction I described, I'm glad that scouts cannot trivially prey upon the assault class anymore. This was a good change. AV
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8857	Posted - 2015.04.17 18:53:00 - [58] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: But the fact remains, the assault is meant to be main-line infantry. Saying that it should not be a popular option is not only hilarious, but ludicrous. I've never claimed that Assaults should be less popular than other classes. Most players play the role of slayer, and Assaults should be the go-to slayer suit. It is natural that their usage rates outweigh those of other classes. What isn't natural is 800HP units moving at 9 m/s. If they could cloak, I'd agree with you. But given the interaction I described, I'm glad that scouts cannot trivially prey upon the assault class anymore. This was a good change. I expect Assault usage rates to be higher than all else, but that doesn't mean that we should turn a blind eye to overuse, overperformance or role bleed. 800HP units outrunning 300HP units should not happen. Yet it does. And when it does, cloak makes zero difference. Give Scouts a cloak that works, and I might agree with you. What we have now is a sad gimmick that is more often a handicap than it is a boon. Newbros can't fit it and many vets won't run it. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
DDx77 The Exemplars 200	Posted - 2015.04.17 19:06:00 - [59] - Quote Way off topic.... Nothi Nova knife winner? I was under the impression it was Mr Mustard that won Therefore............. ARE YOU THE MYTHICAL UNICORN KNOWN AS MR MUSTARD? May the Dark shine your way
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8860	Posted - 2015.04.17 19:12:00 - [60] - Quote DDx77 wrote: Way off topic.... Nothi Nova knife winner? I was under the impression it was Mr Mustard that won Therefore............. ARE YOU THE MYTHICAL UNICORN KNOWN AS MR MUSTARD? Cap'n Musturd = CEO of the Nos Nothi Nos Nothi = We Bastards Original Bastards = Pre-1.8 Scouts (not mr musturd, but I did name this meme after his corp) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 621	Posted - 2015.04.17 19:49:00 - [61] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: ... to clarify I'd like to see assaults generally hitting around 600-800 hp, which I think would end up being perfectly fine, scouts should be 300-500, commandos 700-900 or so, heavies 1100-1300 or so. I think the only one that doesnt fit into these numbers are assaults or bricked scouts (which would also be disallowed by diminishing returns and are ineffective anyway), so hurrah? I'd add Logis in there somewhere between Scouts and Assaults, perhaps 400-600 range. The scale makes sense to me, so long as 800HP guys aren't running around at comparable speeds as the 300HP guys. In other words, as HP inclines along the scale Mobility should decline. Increasing plate penalties/drawbacks might work, but we'd have to be careful not to upset intra-class racial balance, overpenalize heavy frames, or underpenalize Light Frames (no one wants another round of Assault Lite). I think it'd be safer to first swap Assault and Logi speeds, then tune HP modules should additional tuning be warranted. I dont think logis belong in the speed>hp continuum, and to a lesser extent commandos dont really fit directly into it either. Reason being they are balanced by other factors. Commandos (should) have a significant damage advantage over other classes when using light weapons, and Logis have massive force multipliers when using equipment effectively. Both of these factors push them outside a raw hp vs. speed scale. In addition scouts see kind of the same effect, since their real advantage is dampening and scanning, not necessarily speed. In fact if we're talking about raw hp/speed/killing power, assaults clearly dominate scouts across the board, since you can fit x2 kincats on any assault suit, have the same number of modules remaining as a scout has base, and still have significantly higher base HP, so scouts dont really belong either. This is why I dont like the hp v. speed scale, because while I agree some classes might need to be toned up or down, I dont agree that it should be a uniform rule across all classes. Logis are fine as is. They dont need speed buffs. Commandos are **** right now. Giving them more speed isnt going to fix it. Scouts are... I dont know, they might actually need another module slot or something. But just giving them more speed or more hp or nerfing assault speed or hp isnt going to make them compete with assaults in an interesting way (i.e. not competing directly, but having a niche to excel in anyway). I have to disagree with you regarding a scout's advantage is not in speed - it absolutely should be one of their strengths. They are the light class. They must play to their strengths, which should include mobility. The things I can do with a Minja at ~300HP and 10.38 m/s is absolutely a niche playstyle. I base my tactics around it. Yes, but again minja's have the same OP stamina regen as the min assault, and the less well endowed scouts compete directly with min/cal/gal assault in terms of speed and stamina regen, which forces them to compete in EWAR instead since they just dont have enough slots to compete. Im not sure if this is intended or not, and I definately think min assault needs its mobility nerfed (some say speed, I'd like to start with stamina, who knows), and amarr scout needs its mobility improved with a speed boost, and I think cal/gal scouts need stamina boosts.
RedPencil Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 176	Posted - 2015.04.17 20:09:00 - [62] - Quote I would say the short range Passive Scan need to be nerf. This is ridiculous, scout has to fit all low slot (2+ Comp Damp) to get under Assault radar which has no Precision mod but only skill LV5. BTW, Assault that has base sprint speed greater than Amarr scout is nonsense. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 2057	Posted - 2015.04.17 20:23:00 - [63] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Shamarskii Simon wrote: Assault assaulting? Head on 1v1? Hard fight for the lighter guy? Idk man... Feels about right tbh. ....... Cal assault gets a nerf in that too... Yknow how sad it'll be? :(( Oh look, assaults are for assaulting right? Therefore assaults should be THE best beast mode assault machine to a point nobody comes even close. Okay. Scouts are for Scouting I guess? Explain me one thing, how does a scout get WP for scouting? Also, Assault suits are almost equal to scouts in EWAR capabilities while retaining twice as much HP. Seems like the only thing scouts have is a cloak which is also useless AF because snipers can get headshots on cloaked scouts from hundreds of meters away. Scan Stuff, Hack Stuff, Knife the occasional guy, set traps, yell **** at the assault to get their arses in gear and steal their kills. Pretty much how I'd do it. And how is the better than assault? I can do all of that in an assault suit. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8865	Posted - 2015.04.17 21:06:00 - [64] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: ... I definately think min assault needs its mobility nerfed (some say speed, I'd like to start with stamina, who knows) Just watched a MN Assault hop 50ft into the air literally 5x in a row, all the while spamming MD rounds. At maximum, he should get 2 of those ridiculous jumps before his stamina pool is completely drained. So yes, you're right, nerf MN Assault stamina pool. Also, reduce its base movement from 5.30 to 5.20 to normalize comparative speed progressions. Finally, swap Assault and Logi movement speeds. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Francisco Walker Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2	Posted - 2015.04.17 21:34:00 - [65] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: NO MATH! I YIELD! OK, without maths ... Medframe equips 1 complex precision enhancer. If he's an Assault, he now scans at 16dB out to 6 meters. If he's a Logi, he now scans at 16dB out to 8 meters. Say you're a Scout, and you want to backstab this guy without blipping on his and his entire squad's TacNet ... CA Scout - Impossible MN Scout - Impossible AM Scout - Needs 4 complex damps GA Scout - Needs 3 complex damps I think the values your are using for Falloff Precision (Short, Medium, Long) (50%, 100%, 130%) respectively are incorrect. I don't know where to find the correct values, but I am sure that the correct ones are (90%, 100%, 110%) respectively. Thus, with max skills and 1 complex precision enhancer an Assault has 29.16 dB passive scan at short range.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4338	Posted - 2015.04.17 21:53:00 - [66] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Hmmmm I dunno. While this is entirely anecdotal, I find myself being killed by Scouts far more often than I do Assaults. The issue I seem to be encountering the most is wiggle wiggle strafing fits, namely scouts and Min Assaults. Other assaults seem to be fairly balanced against what I typically use which is the Commando. They're a bit on the strong side vs Commando, but that's more of a commando problem than Assault. I think based on the info I have the Min Assault is the stand out case here beyond the scouts or the other racial assaults. I could be wrong but AFAIK that was the case prior to the Myo change and has been even more the case after the Myo change (which with their slot layout is really no surprise once you think about it). Could be a case much like the "slayer logi" of old, where the problems were addressed "with logi" while it was the Cal Logi bonus that was an issue. In this case the problem being seen is either "quick fits" or "jump fits" or "Assault fits" of which the Min Assault is a prime example in each case. Thus even if it is the only one actually breaking the curve it could give the impression of all of them having trouble spots (which I guess as long as it remains a poster child for each I suppose they technically may). I'd be inclined to look at the Min Assault and what is impacting its use trends and move first from there before taking broader action. 0.02 ISK Cross CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8871	Posted - 2015.04.17 21:54:00 - [67] - Quote Francisco Walker wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: True Adamance wrote: NO MATH! I YIELD! OK, without maths ... Medframe equips 1 complex precision enhancer. If he's an Assault, he now scans at 16dB out to 6 meters. If he's a Logi, he now scans at 16dB out to 8 meters. Say you're a Scout, and you want to backstab this guy without blipping on his and his entire squad's TacNet ... CA Scout - Impossible MN Scout - Impossible AM Scout - Needs 4 complex damps GA Scout - Needs 3 complex damps I think the values your are using for Falloff Precision (Short, Medium, Long) (50%, 100%, 130%) respectively are incorrect. I don't know where to find the correct values, but I am sure that the correct ones are (90%, 100%, 110%) respectively. Thus, with max skills and 1 complex precision enhancer an Assault has 29.16 dB passive scan at short range. Negative! 41dB - Assault with max passives (mid range) 32dB - Assault with max passives, +1 complex precision enhancer (mid range) 16dB - Assault with max passives, +1 complex precision enhancer (short range) Click the 1.10 Calculations tab for my maths: Google Doc Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8871	Posted - 2015.04.17 21:57:00 - [68] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I'd be inclined to look at the Min Assault and what is impacting its use trends and move first from there before taking broader action. High HP + High Mobility = FoTM Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
ToRgUe77 19	Posted - 2015.04.17 23:52:00 - [69] - Quote if you're 1v1 an assault head on you're doing it wrong and should just give up. scouts aren't supposed to be able to take out assaults head on,that's why they are fast and sneaky. scouts are meant to out play they're foes not tank through damage.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8871	Posted - 2015.04.18 00:01:00 - [70] - Quote ToRgUe77 wrote: if you're 1v1 an assault head on you're doing it wrong and should just give up. scouts aren't supposed to be able to take out assaults head on,that's why they are fast and sneaky. scouts are meant to out play they're foes not tank through damage. For the 3rd time. Let's say you're a Shotgun Scout and I'm an Assault. You flank me, you stalk me, you're ready strike. You sneak up from behind and ... ... if I'm running 1 Precision, I spot you behind me at 6m. I spin around and now we're in a "head on" fight. ... if I'm running KinCats, you shotgun me in the back. I sprint into a hop and now we're in a "head on" fight. ... if I'm running HP, you shotgun me in the back. I spin around and now we're in a "head on" fight. ... if I'm running Myofib, you shotgun me in the back. I hop out of your range and now we're in a "head on" fight. ... if you manage to hit me the req'd 2x to 3x and win, now you're in a "head on" fight with my squad. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8871	Posted - 2015.04.18 00:04:00 - [71] - Quote Francisco Walker wrote: , but I am sure that the correct ones are (90%, 100%, 110%) respectively. Where did you get numbers? When did they change from the original 50%, 100%, 130% outlined by Rattati in the Falloff documentation and Patch Notes? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2491888#post2491888 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j0uAKk-PtFUgV62QANDe0lJ02Ukc-jQuhcLdwhG4J1Q/edit#gid=18624413 http://dust514.com/news/2014/12/uprising-1.10-overview-patch-notes/ (I don't believe that any changes have been made to Falloff since its release in December.) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 9508	Posted - 2015.04.18 00:49:00 - [72] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Francisco Walker wrote: , but I am sure that the correct ones are (90%, 100%, 110%) respectively. Where did you get 90%, 100%, 110%? When did these numbers change from the original 50%, 100%, 130% outlined by Rattati in the Falloff documentation and Patch Notes? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2491888#post2491888 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j0uAKk-PtFUgV62QANDe0lJ02Ukc-jQuhcLdwhG4J1Q/edit#gid=18624413 http://dust514.com/news/2014/12/uprising-1.10-overview-patch-notes/ I don't believe that any changes have been made to Falloff since its release in December (Uprising 1.10). Did I miss something? Did a little research. The numbers he is quoting are the original numbers from the original post on the subject here. He is likely unaware that the numbers changed after that point, and the numbers in game are now different. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8877	Posted - 2015.04.18 00:53:00 - [73] - Quote Thx, OEK. True Adamance wasn't up-to-speed on scans either. I need to be more careful not to jump down people's throats when they claim that "everything is fine" or "scouts should be scouting". It is possible that many more folks out there are simply unaware that EWAR has changed, not to mention how hard the EWAR nerfs hit Scouts. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 9508	Posted - 2015.04.18 00:57:00 - [74] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thx, OEK. True Adamance wasn't up-to-speed on scans either. I need to be more careful not to jump down people's throats when they claim that "everything is fine" or "scouts should be scouting". It is possible that many more folks out there are simply unaware that EWAR has changed, not to mention how hard the EWAR nerfs hit Scouts. Especially when so many people who at one point ran scouts never cared about the EWAR anyways. Those of us whose games revolved around it were hurt more than those that weren't. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 791	Posted - 2015.04.18 01:00:00 - [75] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Commandos are **** right now. Giving them more speed isnt going to fix it. . Yep.. Agree 100%. I love some of the flexibility of Commando but when Assaults have the same HP and twice the speed, flexibility doesn't mean much. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8877	Posted - 2015.04.18 01:07:00 - [76] - Quote Thokk Nightshade wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Commandos are **** right now. Giving them more speed isnt going to fix it. . Yep.. Agree 100%. I love some of the flexibility of Commando but when Assaults have the same HP and twice the speed, flexibility doesn't mean much. +1 Low Slot, all races all tiers (and enough PG/CPU to put something in it). Combine that with Assault mobility better reflecting their HP levels, and Commandos will very likely be balanced against Assaults. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Francisco Walker Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2	Posted - 2015.04.18 01:17:00 - [77] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Francisco Walker wrote: , but I am sure that the correct ones are (90%, 100%, 110%) respectively. Where did you get 90%, 100%, 110%? When did these numbers change from the original 50%, 100%, 130% outlined by Rattati in the Falloff documentation and Patch Notes? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2491888#post2491888 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j0uAKk-PtFUgV62QANDe0lJ02Ukc-jQuhcLdwhG4J1Q/edit#gid=18624413 http://dust514.com/news/2014/12/uprising-1.10-overview-patch-notes/ I don't believe that any changes have been made to Falloff since its release in December (Uprising 1.10). Did I miss something? Did a little research. The numbers he is quoting are the original numbers from the original post on the subject here. He is likely unaware that the numbers changed after that point, and the numbers in game are now different. 1. I get the numbers form http://www.protofits.com/ (I believe it use the most recent values and it is very reliable) 2. I have a fitting with 2 complex precision enhancers (CPE) and it not scans things as you said. Very often I have been killed by scouts and it's just too late when I hear the sound of someone decloacking. 3. If it is really powerful as you said, there is no reason to use more than one CPE, and also there is no reason to use active scanners.
Scheneighnay McBob And the ButtPirates 6078	Posted - 2015.04.18 01:32:00 - [78] - Quote I still scout and it feels fine. Maybe you're using scouts wrong? Assaults are light fighters, scouts are more highly mobile support- harassing the enemy indirectly by hacking ****, squashing hidden uplinks, and hunting snipers/swarms. If you get into a fight as a scout that doesn't involve you killing someone before they know what's going on, you're doing it wrong. Some details can be ignored
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8877	Posted - 2015.04.18 01:34:00 - [79] - Quote Francisco Walker wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Francisco Walker wrote: , but I am sure that the correct ones are (90%, 100%, 110%) respectively. Where did you get 90%, 100%, 110%? When did these numbers change from the original 50%, 100%, 130% outlined by Rattati in the Falloff documentation and Patch Notes? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2491888#post2491888 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j0uAKk-PtFUgV62QANDe0lJ02Ukc-jQuhcLdwhG4J1Q/edit#gid=18624413 http://dust514.com/news/2014/12/uprising-1.10-overview-patch-notes/ I don't believe that any changes have been made to Falloff since its release in December (Uprising 1.10). Did I miss something? Did a little research. The numbers he is quoting are the original numbers from the original post on the subject here. He is likely unaware that the numbers changed after that point, and the numbers in game are now different. 1. I get the numbers form http://www.protofits.com/ (I believe it use the most recent values and it is very reliable) 2. I have a fitting with 2 complex precision enhancers (CPE) and it not scans things as you said. Very often I have been killed by scouts and it's just too late when I hear the sound of someone decloacking. 3. If it is really powerful as you said, there is no reason to use more than one CPE, and also there is no reason to use active scanners. 1. Looks like Protofits is wrong. I'll poke Cyrus to let him know. 2. No unit can beat your 13dB scans; the only explanation I can think of is that you either failed to notice the blip or TacNet failed to paint the blip to your HUD in a timely manner (perhaps due to latency). 3. Disagreed. Passives of Assault gk.0 +2 cPE are roughly equal to Scout gk.0 +1 cPE. Those are extremely good scans as far as passive scans go. But we're talking about extremely short ranges here. Prototype Active Scanners provide much higher quality recon than mid-range and long-range passives, especially if they're coming from a GalLogi. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 9510	Posted - 2015.04.18 01:43:00 - [80] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I still scout and it feels fine. Maybe you're using scouts wrong? Assaults are light fighters, scouts are more highly mobile support- harassing the enemy indirectly by hacking ****, squashing hidden uplinks, and hunting snipers/swarms. If you get into a fight as a scout that doesn't involve you killing someone before they know what's going on, you're doing it wrong. That is just it. If you are chasing an Assault that happens to be only slightly less fast than you, while having 2 or 3 times the HP, you are going to pop up on their system and there is no way around it. They should be vulnerable, but they aren't because of their speed and the inner circle. They will know I am chasing them before I can reasonably be able to do something. And then we are back to the face to face point again. I don't want to be equal in a face to face encounter, but I don't want encounters fundamentally involving stealth and flanking turning into a face to face battle and having no counter to that. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

Racro 01 Arifistan Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 530	Posted - 2015.04.18 01:56:00 - [81] - Quote profile damps are stronger in percentage bonus than precision enhancments. if an assault fits one precsion enhancement. and your scout hasn't put any damps on its understandable that the assult can see you. if iam right at max skills for precision and dampening an assault has 41/41. a compelx enhancement makes this 36/41. if an assult is seeing you with this your DEFENTLY doing it wrong. heres the gall scout at max skills running 1 precision and 2 damps. (complex) gall scout 26/16. gall assault 32/41. no way in hell even in cqc will the assult see the scout comeing. HOWEVER visually spoting the scout will always beat your radar(tacnet) even if the assult was running 2 complex precisions and 3 complex damps. 27/20 I think it is. compared to the gall scout 26/16. if anything the scouts.....minus the caldari (we all know about your hitbox) are in a good spot right now. if the caldari scouts hitbox was increased to the size of the gall everything would be fine. *Elite Gallenten Soldier*
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8884	Posted - 2015.04.18 02:43:00 - [82] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: Derp Just in case you aren't trolling ... If an Assault fits 1 cmp precision enhancer, he'll scan at 16dB out to 6m. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8884	Posted - 2015.04.18 02:47:00 - [83] - Quote Francisco Walker wrote: 1. I get the numbers form http://www.protofits.com/ (I believe it use the most recent values and it is very reliable) Thanks a bunch for pointing this out, Francisco. Cyrus has updated protofits: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2729965#post2729965 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 9515	Posted - 2015.04.18 02:54:00 - [84] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: profile damps are stronger in percentage bonus than precision enhancments. if an assault fits one precsion enhancement. and your scout hasn't put any damps on its understandable that the assult can see you. if iam right at max skills for precision and dampening an assault has 41/41. a compelx enhancement makes this 36/41. if an assult is seeing you with this your DEFENTLY doing it wrong. heres the gall scout at max skills running 1 precision and 2 damps. (complex) gall scout 26/16. gall assault 32/41. no way in hell even in cqc will the assult see the scout comeing. HOWEVER visually spoting the scout will always beat your radar(tacnet) even if the assult was running 2 complex precisions and 3 complex damps. 27/20 I think it is. compared to the gall scout 26/16. if anything the scouts.....minus the caldari (we all know about your hitbox) are in a good spot right now. if the caldari scouts hitbox was increased to the size of the gall everything would be fine. You aren't taking inner rings into account... The lowest any Scout can get, is 13dB, which is a Gal Scout with max skills and 4 Complex Dampeners. Any Medium Frame only needs 2 Complex Enhancers to achieve inner circle precision of 13 dB. This means that a Medium Frame has to sacrifice just half of the number of module slots, and can easily have 2 or 3 times the HP of the Scout, and in the case of Assaults, roughly the same speed. And this is the MOST GENEROUS scenario for Scouts. Amarr, Minmatar, and Caldari don't have the same luxury, as they can't get below 15/16. You can throw on a cloak, but that will require decloaking, which will leave you lit up for an entire second without being able to retaliate. At that point the cloak is not only useless, but a detriment. If your assumptions were correct, that would be fine. And they are fine if you were talking pre circle EWAR, but we aren't. There is zero ability to defeat inner ring scans, with limited sacrifices on behalf of Medium Frames despite significant sacrifices of scouts, on top of other inherent disadvantages. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 625	Posted - 2015.04.18 03:15:00 - [85] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: ... I definately think min assault needs its mobility nerfed (some say speed, I'd like to start with stamina, who knows) Just watched a 600HP MN Assault hop 50ft into the air literally 5x in a row. At maximum, he should get 2 of those ridiculous (4x myo) jumps before his stamina pool is completely drained. So yes, you're right, nerf MN Assault stamina pool. Also, reduce its base movement from 5.30 to 5.20 to normalize comparative speed progressions. Finally, swap Assault and Logi movement speeds. Pretty sure nobody in any suit can jump more than 3 times in a row without stopping for a few seconds for stam regen, so Ill take your comments with a grain of salt.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8885	Posted - 2015.04.18 03:34:00 - [86] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: ... I definately think min assault needs its mobility nerfed (some say speed, I'd like to start with stamina, who knows) Just watched a 600HP MN Assault hop 50ft into the air literally 5x in a row. At maximum, he should get 2 of those ridiculous (4x myo) jumps before his stamina pool is completely drained. So yes, you're right, nerf MN Assault stamina pool. Also, reduce its base movement from 5.30 to 5.20 to normalize comparative speed progressions. Finally, swap Assault and Logi movement speeds. Pretty sure nobody in any suit can jump more than 3 times in a row without stopping for a few seconds for stam regen, so Ill take your comments with a grain of salt. Watched it with my own eyes, and I don't make stuff up. Jump. Fire mass driver. Land. Rinse/Repeat x5. He was running an Assault mk.0. Might've been 3x myo-fibs, but I'm pretty sure he was running 4x given the height he was reaching and the damage he was doing to himself. No way to tell whether or not he was running a CardReg, but I'll be glad to test both with and without. I just respec'd out of MN Assault, so I can't reverse engineer his suit. Closest thing I have is a 4x myo CalScout. Will test with and without CardRegs. I'm wondering if his stamina was partially recharging during his descents. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Vyuru Algintal Core Gallente Federation 122	Posted - 2015.04.18 03:43:00 - [87] - Quote I dunno. I would like to see some changes, I am just not quite sure what I'd like to see. For my particular play style, I think scouts tend to be fine, for the most part. I do have to sacrifice more than I would like on some scout suits for proto galogi scans, but that's currently my only major beef with scout suits. I think I'd like to see some racial scout suits with suit specific bonuses. I know someone posted some good ideas awhile ago. I think it was a sidearm only scout with bonuses to cloaks and something else. Like I said, dunno exactly. There are alot of things I think would be good ideas, but don't know if we'd see them (like allowing scouts to set up some sort of firewall on hackable objects to slow down enemy hackers, stuff like that) EDIT Just saw the above post: Quote: Closest thing I have is a 4x myo CalScout. Will test with and without CardRegs. I'm wondering if his stamina was partially recharging during his descents. I "think" what was happening was this: Stamina does not regen during falling, I do know (and sometimes curse) this. However, if while jumping, the more consecutive jumps you do, the more stamina will be drained for each jump. I want to say you can get roughly 3x or 4x consecutive jumps before your stamina is depleted. If I remember right, this is with or without a CardReg, but don't quote me on that part. HOWEVER! If you jump, take a step or two (basically wait like a half second to second) and then jump again, you only use the initial amount of stamina for the first jump, allowing you to get more jumps in. That's what it sounds like he was doing at anyrate. Toss in a CardReg for fast stamina regen, I'd be willing to guess that he can make his stamina last a very long time with lots of jumps.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 625	Posted - 2015.04.18 03:48:00 - [88] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: ... I definately think min assault needs its mobility nerfed (some say speed, I'd like to start with stamina, who knows) Just watched a 600HP MN Assault hop 50ft into the air literally 5x in a row. At maximum, he should get 2 of those ridiculous (4x myo) jumps before his stamina pool is completely drained. So yes, you're right, nerf MN Assault stamina pool. Also, reduce its base movement from 5.30 to 5.20 to normalize comparative speed progressions. Finally, swap Assault and Logi movement speeds. Pretty sure nobody in any suit can jump more than 3 times in a row without stopping for a few seconds for stam regen, so Ill take your comments with a grain of salt. I don't make stuff up, friend. Watched it with my own eyes, and it was pretty obnoxious. Jump. Fire mass driver. Land. Rinse/Repeat x5. He may have paused briefly between bounds, but if he was, it was an extremely brief pause. He was running an Assault mk.0. Might've been 3x myo-fibs, but I'm pretty sure he was running 4x given the height he was reaching and the damage he was doing to himself. No way to tell whether or not he was running a CardReg, but I'll be glad to test both with and without. I just respec'd out of MN Assault, so I can't reverse engineer his exact suit. Closest thing I have is a 4x myo CalScout. Will test with and without CardRegs. (I'm wondering if his stamina was partially recharging during his descents.) I dont think the stam regen mechanic works like that, pretty sure it pauses if you are jumping or falling regardless of how long it takes for you to hit ground.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8885	Posted - 2015.04.18 03:51:00 - [89] - Quote 4x myo CalScout w/0 cardreg: ~4 jumps before before stamina depletes; stamina recharge does not begin until landed. 4x myo CalScout w/1 cardreg: ~8 jumps before stamina depletes; stamina recharge does not begin until landed. Conclusion: The jumping MN Assault was running a CardReg, and Vesta owes me an apology :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8885	Posted - 2015.04.18 03:52:00 - [90] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: I dont think the stam regen mechanic works like that, pretty sure it pauses if you are jumping or falling regardless of how long it takes for you to hit ground. Correct. This was my observation as well. Stamina began to regen shortly after landing. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8885	Posted - 2015.04.18 03:54:00 - [91] - Quote Vyuru wrote: That's what it sounds like he was doing at anyrate. Toss in a CardReg for fast stamina regen, I'd be willing to guess that he can make his stamina last a very long time with lots of jumps. 1 complex cardreg doubles the number of times you can jump. I didn't realize that this was the case until testing it a few minutes ago. If the hopping gets out of hand, I'd propose that Rattati either fix the jump cost at 25% of stamina pool (meaning cardregs would have no effect on jump count) or wire myofib-aided jumps such that the higher the jump, the greater the stamina cost. Example: Run 0x myofibs and get 4 normal jumps from your stamina pool Run 2x myofibs and get 2 large jumps from your stamina pool Run 4x myo and get 1 massive jump with your stamina pool (8 back-to-back massive jumps at the cost of 1 cardreg is a 'bit silly) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4346	Posted - 2015.04.18 04:02:00 - [92] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm of the opinion that High HP and High Mobility should not coexist. These two stats contribute more to survivability than any other, Having a scaled inverse relationship between those two with Scouts at one end and Sentinels at the other makes sense to me. And I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one. 0.02 ISK Cross CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 2165	Posted - 2015.04.18 08:09:00 - [93] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I still scout and it feels fine. Maybe you're using scouts wrong? Assaults are light fighters, scouts are more highly mobile support- harassing the enemy indirectly by hacking **, squashing hidden uplinks, and hunting snipers/swarms. If you get into a fight as a scout that doesn't involve you killing someone before they know what's going on, you're doing it wrong. Would be interested to know what your idea of doing it right is? You appear to imply our descriptions of encounters in this thread is doing it wrong....what's the right way? ToRgUe77 wrote:** if you're 1v1 an assault head on you're doing it wrong and should just give up. scouts aren't supposed to be able to take out assaults head on,that's why they are fast and sneaky. scouts are meant to out play they're foes not tank through damage. Another one that thinks this suggestion is advocating frontal assaults as a viable style for scouts. What leads you to believe that is what is being suggested here? I'm genuinely interested because you are at least the third person to think this.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8154	Posted - 2015.04.18 09:54:00 - [94] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm of the opinion that High HP and High Mobility should not coexist. These two stats contribute more to survivability than any other, Having a scaled inverse relationship between those two with Scouts at one end and Sentinels at the other makes sense to me. And I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one. 0.02 ISK Cross The problem with the statement here is minmatar suits if you speed spike them are almost as fragile as a scout If you armor them up they lose the speed advantage. If you brick 'em they're almost as easy to hit as a sentinel. Min suits can do a little but of everything. But if you do that you wind up being someone's punch dummy. If you specialize the fit you lose the versatility factor. The gallente suit is the other fast suit, and bluntly the insistance that gallente weapons be universally CQC means if you choose to use them you have to be able to fast attack. Scouts? Speed spiked scouts can be inside your guard before they register on the scanner. The only time I have an easy time of them us when they jump at me. Thank you myofib spam. Damped scouts are weird. Bluntly the scanner mechanics are pretty much boned. They need to have a margin for error randomizer so scout damping isn't utterly dependent upon having as low a DB as possible. Honestly the suits themselves have never been horrible. The mechanics orbiting the suits, however... AV
Godin Thekiller Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 3108	Posted - 2015.04.18 12:35:00 - [95] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: OR Scouts should be based on doing actual Scout work, and EWAR. It's great to see people moving faster. I just wish the game supported this kind of movement more. I must've missed the part where Rattati reversed Scout EWAR nerfs, removed Falloff, removed team share from Active Scanners, replaced the GalLogi bonus, and added Recon Assist WP for Scout Passive Scans. When did all that happen? You're stating scanning changes, I said EWAR. If not scanning, what exactly do you mean by Scout work and EWAR? Do you not know what a scout is, and what EWAR is? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Slave of MORTE 381	Posted - 2015.04.18 13:42:00 - [96] - Quote I have both scout and assault roles the balance is fine ..gg I'm her slave because amarrians are the best in the sheets #stamina
Slave of MORTE 381	Posted - 2015.04.18 13:45:00 - [97] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: As an Amarr assault I die to scouts more than any other class. Also anecdotal -- but no less true. Fit a pe.. I'm her slave because amarrians are the best in the sheets #stamina
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4350	Posted - 2015.04.18 15:19:00 - [98] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm of the opinion that High HP and High Mobility should not coexist. These two stats contribute more to survivability than any other, Having a scaled inverse relationship between those two with Scouts at one end and Sentinels at the other makes sense to me. And I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one. 0.02 ISK Cross The problem with the statement here is minmatar suits if you speed spike them are almost as fragile as a scout If you armor them up they lose the speed advantage. If you brick 'em they're almost as easy to hit as a sentinel. Min suits can do a little but of everything. But if you do that you wind up being someone's punch dummy. If you specialize the fit you lose the versatility factor. The gallente suit is the other fast suit, and bluntly the insistance that gallente weapons be universally CQC means if you choose to use them you have to be able to fast attack. Scouts? Speed spiked scouts can be inside your guard before they register on the scanner. The only time I have an easy time of them us when they jump at me. Thank you myofib spam. Damped scouts are weird. Bluntly the scanner mechanics are pretty much boned. They need to have a margin for error randomizer so scout damping isn't utterly dependent upon having as low a DB as possible. Honestly the suits themselves have never been horrible. The mechanics orbiting the suits, however... Not sure how any of these highlights a problem with the above statement Racial paradigms are another 'axis of shift' that should be considered of course, but even within that have a general trend of trade off between speed and raw HP buffer not only seems sensible it seems like an already established general (if not quite universal/polished) method already in place within Dust from the earliest days, one need look no further than the light to heavy progression and the conceptualization of same that has been put forward to see that. Now whether or not that is iterated correctly at this point is an entirely separate matter, and that needs to be addressed of course because without it there's no actual balance, but it not being done well doesn't impugn the fundamental concept. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8910	Posted - 2015.04.18 16:18:00 - [99] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Now whether or not that is iterated correctly at this point is an entirely separate matter ... Spitballing ... Objectives * Max HP: Sentinel > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout * Mobility: Sentinel < Commando < Assault < Logi < Scout Approach A 1. Implement Rattati's mass:movement model Benefits Meets objectives most elegantly; not a "quick fix"; very easily fine tuned Drawbacks Significant design and implementation time; expensive; likely a long wait Approach B 1. Reduce Assault base HP and/or slot count Benefits Meets objectives Drawbacks Risks return of Assault Lite out-slaying Assaults; upsets Heavy v Assault interplay Approach C 1. Reduce Assault base speeds by a fixed percentage 2. Add low-slot to commandos to increase max HP potential 3. Increase and retool plate penalties by Frame (high penalty to Light, low penalty to Heavy) Benefits Meets objectives; Assault Lite resurgence deterred; Heavy interplay largely unaffected Drawbacks Potentially upsets intra-class armor v. shield parity (if shields v armor are presently in balance) Approach D 1. Swap Logi and Assault base speeds 2. Add low-slot to commandos to increase max HP potential 3. Increase and retool plate penalties by Frame (high penalty to Light, low penalty to Heavy) Benefits Meets objectives; Assault Lite resurgence deterred; Heavy interplay largely unaffected; Logi survivability improved Drawbacks Potentially upsets intra-class armor v. shield parity (if shields v armor are presently in balance) My two cents: Approach A would be ideal, but it'd also be alot of work. Approach D (or something like it) is the best "quick fix" I can think of; I'm of the opinion that "brick up" is the prevailing meta, and that increased drawbacks to plates would bring shields v armor closer to parity. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Francisco Walker Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 4	Posted - 2015.04.18 16:33:00 - [100] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Francisco Walker wrote: 1. I get the numbers form http://www.protofits.com/ (I believe it use the most recent values and it is very reliable) Thanks a bunch for pointing this out, Francisco. Cyrus has updated protofits: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2729965#post2729965 Nice! Sometimes is hard to know what is real parameters and if they are correct, and in fact, applying to the game. I agree with you about your comments on points 2 and 3 in my last post. Don't you think that a distance of 6 m is too close to give any response when someone is attacking from behind?

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8915	Posted - 2015.04.18 16:58:00 - [101] - Quote Francisco Walker wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Francisco Walker wrote: 1. I get the numbers form http://www.protofits.com/ (I believe it use the most recent values and it is very reliable) Thanks a bunch for pointing this out, Francisco. Cyrus has updated protofits: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2729965#post2729965 Nice! Sometimes is hard to know what is real parameters and if they are correct, and in fact, applying to the game. I agree with you about your comments on points 2 and 3 in my last post. Don't you think that a distance of 6 m is too close to give any response when someone is attacking from behind? That's an excellent question. In instances where a target is standing still and a CQC Scout is rushing in from behind, that Scout blips only briefly on the target's TacNet. The target himself will likely not notice the brief blip before being engaged. Stationary, lone targets are ideal for quick takedown, though a successful takedown/escape even in these optimal cases is by no means guaranteed. Explanation. Ideal targets (lone, stationary) are the exception. There's safety in numbers, and competent units tend to both travel and hold/take positions in groups. In instances where a competent unit is alone, he is almost always on the move. If I'm on the move and you're behind me, you and I will be traveling in the same direction. If your Scout sprints 0.5 m/s faster than my Assault, you will be on my TacNet for a full 2 seconds between 6m and 4m (shotgun range) and 7 seconds between 6m and 2.5m (NK range). As a rule of thumb, it is a bad idea to chase down any Assault. And it is an especially a bad idea to try to chase down MN Assaults; these are typically both faster than double damp'd Scouts and have comparable stamina. They've twice your HP, you can't catch them, and they pause to rest no more often than you do. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Forced Death Corrosive Synergy Rise Of Legion. 575	Posted - 2015.04.18 17:54:00 - [102] - Quote As long as I see Minmatar Assaults running faster than my scout, shotgunning people, have more HP, and never be found, I will say that scouts need a buff or assaults need a nerf STD Active Scanner with Scan Profile of 46db too OP
DR DEESE NUTS 79	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:33:00 - [103] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: ... I definately think min assault needs its mobility nerfed (some say speed, I'd like to start with stamina, who knows) Just watched a 600HP MN Assault hop 50ft into the air literally 5x in a row. At maximum, he should get 2 of those ridiculous (4x myo) jumps before his stamina pool is completely drained. So yes, you're right, nerf MN Assault stamina pool. Also, reduce its base movement from 5.30 to 5.20 to normalize comparative speed progressions. Finally, swap Assault and Logi movement speeds. Guess someone wants to the new fotm. The USS m`dick
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 9525	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:37:00 - [104] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm of the opinion that High HP and High Mobility should not coexist. These two stats contribute more to survivability than any other, Having a scaled inverse relationship between those two with Scouts at one end and Sentinels at the other makes sense to me. And I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one. 0.02 ISK Cross The problem with the statement here is minmatar suits if you speed spike them are almost as fragile as a scout If you armor them up they lose the speed advantage. If you brick 'em they're almost as easy to hit as a sentinel. Min suits can do a little but of everything. But if you do that you wind up being someone's punch dummy. If you specialize the fit you lose the versatility factor. The gallente suit is the other fast suit, and bluntly the insistance that gallente weapons be universally CQC means if you choose to use them you have to be able to fast attack. Scouts? Speed spiked scouts can be inside your guard before they register on the scanner. The only time I have an easy time of them us when they jump at me. Thank you myofib spam. Damped scouts are weird. Bluntly the scanner mechanics are pretty much boned. They need to have a margin for error randomizer so scout damping isn't utterly dependent upon having as low a DB as possible. Honestly the suits themselves have never been horrible. The mechanics orbiting the suits, however... I think you under estimate what the HP difference of Min Scouts/Assaults are, and how that factors into actual game play. I have a M-1 Assault that I simply dampen, and throw on a CR and Flaylock, and have significantly more survivability in terms of scoutly type play. I can flank, engage, and overcome any HP disadvantages with stealth (aside from heavies, but that is as it should be). Because I have a weapon which has an effective range greater than the scans that would pick me up, it is really not a problem. And because of the innate speed, I really don't even need to speed tank, just dampen. On my Minja, not only do I have to dampen to make Knifing even remotely viable, I have so little HP that I often cannot even make any evasive maneuvers before being killed once spotted. I try constantly to find cover, and usually die as soon as I am spotted. And cloaking helps only marginally in the open given how visible being cloaked still is. To suggest that Scouts have always been "fine" goes against what we know given the pre 1.8 history. At the very least, Assaults are over performing at the moment, which needs addressing, and perhaps that will be sufficient. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8926	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:42:00 - [105] - Quote DR DEESE NUTS wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: ... I definately think min assault needs its mobility nerfed (some say speed, I'd like to start with stamina, who knows) Just watched a 600HP MN Assault hop 50ft into the air literally 5x in a row. At maximum, he should get 2 of those ridiculous (4x myo) jumps before his stamina pool is completely drained. So yes, you're right, nerf MN Assault stamina pool. Also, reduce its base movement from 5.30 to 5.20 to normalize comparative speed progressions. Finally, swap Assault and Logi movement speeds. Guess someone wants to [be] the new fotm. I want Dust to be the best it can be, and I believe that role balance plays a big part in that. The very last thing I want is another round of FoTM / OP Scouts. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 2178	Posted - 2015.04.18 20:24:00 - [106] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: OR Scouts should be based on doing actual Scout work, and EWAR. It's great to see people moving faster. I just wish the game supported this kind of movement more. I must've missed the part where Rattati reversed Scout EWAR nerfs, removed Falloff, removed team share from Active Scanners, replaced the GalLogi bonus, and added Recon Assist WP for Scout Passive Scans. When did all that happen? You're stating scanning changes, I said EWAR. If not scanning, what exactly do you mean by Scout work and EWAR? Do you not know what a scout is, and what EWAR is? Blubby hell dude - just answer the question. This sort of retort is silly. I don't know the answer to your question either. Talk straight.
Vyuru Algintal Core Gallente Federation 123	Posted - 2015.04.18 23:58:00 - [107] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: OR Scouts should be based on doing actual Scout work, and EWAR. It's great to see people moving faster. I just wish the game supported this kind of movement more. I must've missed the part where Rattati reversed Scout EWAR nerfs, removed Falloff, removed team share from Active Scanners, replaced the GalLogi bonus, and added Recon Assist WP for Scout Passive Scans. When did all that happen? You're stating scanning changes, I said EWAR. If not scanning, what exactly do you mean by Scout work and EWAR? Do you not know what a scout is, and what EWAR is? Allright, gloves off, I am sick and tired of this "do you not know what EWAR is?" stuff that certain people like to toss around, and like to use as a pedestal why scouts are supposedly "ok". Do you even scout? Do YOU even know what EWAR means? Now I'm going to use Eve as an example here for EWAR. For EWAR, we have: Energy Neuts Energy Vampires Targeted ECMs Burst ECMs Signal Distortion Amps Tracking Disruptors Remote Sensor Damps Target Painters Sensor Boosters Remote Sensor Boosters Cloaks Warp Disruptors Warp Scramblers Stasis Webifiers Command Ships, and assorted skills/modules EWAR Drones Some of the above serve multiple roles. For example, Sensor Boosters require scripts to use, and you can either load it with +tracking speed scripts, or +range scripts. So the variety of EWAR that Eve has is actually more than the above list takes into account. THEN there are all of the counters to the above that I haven't even listed. The above, is actual EWAR. Now, kindly tell me what EWAR functionality there is in Dust 514. Let's see if I got this right, Dust 514 has: Cloaks Damps Scanners Precision Enhancers Range Amps <<< which are effectively worthless according to 90% of the community. So really, the only form of EWAR Dust 514 has going for it is whether or not, or how soon, you show up on the radar, and cloaks that still render you highly visible. And all of that means jack squat if someone gets eyes on you. WOOOOOO! Go Dust 514 EWAR! Dust 514's EWAR is in an incredibly rudimentary state, it is so basic it's almost not even worth calling EWAR. I would LOVE for Dust 514 to have it's EWAR capability to be expanded. And I would love to have Scout and Logistic suits to be tweaked to be the EWAR suits, maybe even Commando suits too. However, to claim that an entire suit class is "balanced" around this nonexistant EWAR, is ludicrous, at best. And when you can have Gal Logi's lighting everything up for what, 100 meters? Not much room for that scout to do any, you know, scouting work.
RedPencil Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 177	Posted - 2015.04.19 02:09:00 - [108] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: All Approach A - D... Did you forget about the Precision inner ring? Correct ones are (50%, 100%, 130%) respectively. Change to (70%, 100%, 130%) respectively. So, Assault 0 Precision mod pickup Scout 0 Damp under inner ring. And, Assault 1 Precision mod pickup Scout 1 Damp under inner ring. Last, Assault 2 Precision mod will not pickup Scout 2+ Damp under inner ring. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Starlight Burner Arrary of Clusters 213	Posted - 2015.04.19 02:23:00 - [109] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: All Approach A - D... Did you forget about the Precision inner ring? Correct ones are (50%, 100%, 130%) respectively. Change to (70%, 100%, 130%) respectively. So, Assault 0 Precision mod pickup Scout 0 Damp under inner ring. And, Assault 1 Precision mod pickup Scout 1 Damp under inner ring. Last, Assault 2 Precision mod will not pickup Scout 2+ Damp under inner ring. No, I don't agree with that. If you're right up on me, I should be able to pick you up. Seriously, this doesn't need to get changed. CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today! Thank you for DUST
RedPencil Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 177	Posted - 2015.04.19 02:39:00 - [110] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: RedPencil wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: All Approach A - D... Did you forget about the Precision inner ring? Correct ones are (50%, 100%, 130%) respectively. Change to (70%, 100%, 130%) respectively. So, Assault 0 Precision mod pickup Scout 0 Damp under inner ring. And, Assault 1 Precision mod pickup Scout 1 Damp under inner ring. Last, Assault 2 Precision mod will not pickup Scout 2+ Damp under inner ring. No, I don't agree with that. If you're right up on me, I should be able to pick you up. Seriously, this doesn't need to get changed. Then tell me why we have EWAR in the first place? The original propose from Rattati was to make EWAR viable for all the suit not only scout, BUT REQUIRE TO EQUIP A MODULE TO DO SO. BTW, you still able to pickup a Scout if you equip a Pricision enhance. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8931	Posted - 2015.04.19 04:01:00 - [111] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: All Approach A - D... Did you forget about the Precision inner ring? Better to fix the biggest problem first. I'm painfully aware of the problems created by Falloff, but I believe that the present lack of tradeoff between HP and Mobility represents a greater problem. Regardless of what changes are or are not made to EWAR, if 600-800HP slayer units are still keeping pace with 300-400HP speed/stealth units, then classes will remain out-of-balance. In my opinion, we should start with mass:movement; if interplay issues persist, then we should move on to tuning lesser problems. Intense inner rings get alot of hate from CQC Scouts, but they were introduced for a good reason. Even after decloak/fire delay and cloakblind, shotgun kill/spawn efficiency was still too high when compared to other weapons. Nerfing range obviously wouldn't have been an option, and nerfing damage or RoF would've given heavies a free pass. Through Falloff, Rattati found a way to introduce new risk factors and decrease shotgun kill/spawn efficiency without directly nerfing the weapon. Compared to the available alternatives, this was a good move. The biggest drawback to intense inner rings is that NK Scouts (like you) took an undeserved hit on account of SG Scouts (like me). Then FoTM MN Assault spam happened, and we both got boned. Then myofibs happened, and we both got boned again. Lol. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8931	Posted - 2015.04.19 04:23:00 - [112] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: RedPencil wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: All Approach A - D... Did you forget about the Precision inner ring? Correct ones are (50%, 100%, 130%) respectively. Change to (70%, 100%, 130%) respectively. So, Assault 0 Precision mod pickup Scout 0 Damp under inner ring. And, Assault 1 Precision mod pickup Scout 1 Damp under inner ring. Last, Assault 2 Precision mod will not pickup Scout 2+ Damp under inner ring. No, I don't agree with that. If you're right up on me, I should be able to pick you up. Seriously, this doesn't need to get changed. No other competitive FPS I've ever played alerts players to an incoming backstab. When another player manages to get the drop on me then sneak up within a few meters of my arse and pull the trigger, I know I deserve to die. I'd die in any other shooter. It's called getting outplayed. What you have now -- what you say "doesn't need to get changed" -- is called a free pass. You get outsmarted and you get outplayed, yet you get an opportunity to overcome. It's pretty much BS by any competitive standard. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
VALCORE72 Vengeance Unbound RUST415 292	Posted - 2015.04.19 12:59:00 - [113] - Quote scouts had 6 months of bull sht lol there good right where there at . asian haters united lol .
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 507	Posted - 2015.04.19 13:18:00 - [114] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Or nerf Assaults. The imbalance between the two is plain as day from my POV; the tougher the fight, the more obvious the imbalance. I'm willing to bet that kill/spawn efficiency data is mirroring usage data. It shouldn't take much. Dialing back Assault mobility would be a great start, and might just do the trick. So you want scouts to always be number 1 as far as being OP. Rock /Paper/Scissor .The problem is the paper scout is heavier then the Rock and sharper than the scissor. Or is this about Jumping scouts vs Jumping assaults is this what this thread is about? Don't both have the same amount of time in the Air.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 507	Posted - 2015.04.19 13:26:00 - [115] - Quote Forced Death wrote: As long as I see Minmatar Assaults running faster than my scout, shotgunning people, have more HP, and never be found, I will say that scouts need a buff or assaults need a nerf Then Heavy needs to be able to see (Increased scan Precision) and or given a extra 500 hp they are dying too quickly And I don't know how to buff logi without making it a slayer.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8952	Posted - 2015.04.19 16:31:00 - [116] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: All Approach A - D... Did you forget about the Precision inner ring? Correct ones are (50%, 100%, 130%) respectively. Change to (70%, 100%, 130%) respectively. So, Assault 0 Precision mod pickup Scout 0 Damp under inner ring. And, Assault 1 Precision mod pickup Scout 1 Damp under inner ring. Last, Assault 2 Precision mod will not pickup Scout 2+ Damp under inner ring. Still thinking about this, RedPencil. Put together some maths, as well as a couple alternative spitballs: Google Doc Under 50/100/130 ---> 70/100/130, you'll see that Gallente and Caldari Scouts would be able to duck even amplified passives with only one dampener. This could lead to the "invisible monster" problem which we observed following 1.8 (heavily tanked, TacNet immune GalScouts and CalScouts). Just like high-speed + high-hp causes balance problems, high-hp + stealth does the same. Further, the increased risk to shotgunners under 50/100/130 is the only thing keeping the shotgun from becoming overly efficient again. The Shotgun factor got me thinking. The whole point of 50/100/130 is to add risk to shotgunning to keep SG efficiency in check. Unfortunately, the same risk increase applies to Nova Knives. So what if wielding Nova Knives reduced one's profile? See NK-based Profile Modifier for specific maths. Another (likely unpopular) option would be to simply nerf Assault Scan Precision. If Rattati were to rule that Assault mobility and HP potential must remain as is, then tuning precision might be the next best option. This would make Assaults more vulnerable when caught offguard by dampened Scouts, which would ease the imbalance between the two classes. I like this approach better than 70/100/130 as current interplay between Logi and Scout is maintained. See Assault Precision: 45dB ---> 50dB for specific maths. TL;DR: Still think Mass:Mobility is the key to Assault v Scout balance, but you've got me thinking about backup plans :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8953	Posted - 2015.04.19 16:47:00 - [117] - Quote VALCORE72 wrote: scouts had 6 months of bull sht lol there good right where there at . Which of these is not like the other? Months of months of Broken AR-514: "Everything is fine", said the vast majority of AR-514. Months of months of Broken Slayer Logis: "Everything is fine", said the vast majority of Slayers. Months of months of Broken HAV and ADS: "Everything is fine", said the vast majority of Pilots. Months of months of Broken HMGs: "Everything is fine", said the vast majority of Heavies. Months of months of Broken Rail Rifles: "Everything is fine", said the vast majority of RR users. Months of months of Broken Scrambler Rifles: "Everything is fine", said the vast majority of ScR users. Months of months of Broken MN Assaults: "Everything is fine", said the vast majority of MN Assaults. Months of months of Broken Scouts: "Here are some nerfs which will fix us", said the vast majority of Scouts. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 2191	Posted - 2015.04.19 22:51:00 - [118] - Quote VALCORE72 wrote: scouts had 6 months of bull sht lol there good right where there at . wow. You think classes should take it in turns to be OP? Never heard a worse argument against a balance proposal. Thank goodness you're not running things.
RedPencil Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 179	Posted - 2015.04.19 23:05:00 - [119] - Quote - I think NK is in the critical spot. Any more than the current state will make it OP. - I hold on to the idea of a tradeoff. I used to have 7+ fits just for Min scout alone and another 3 fits for Gal Scout, so that I can adapt base on the situation. Right now, it down to just only 2 + 1(Jumpy lol) for Min Scout and 1 fit for Gal Scout. The rest got deleted because it ainGÇÖt viable anymore. - Yes, I still think 70/100/130 is solid. Here is my intent, A lazy MidFrame who has no precision mod will see some lazy scout. But if he willing to sacrifice his H slots to equip precision mods, he will see most scout and his whole team will also see it too. However, if he fit 2+ Precision mod but still canGÇÖt see an incoming scout, that only mean 2 thing. Either he is really suck or a scout was forced to sacrifice 2+ L slots to get under his radar. Off topic - All above are just my opinion, but one thing I know for sure, and I dare to bet 100ISK on isGÇª GÇ£Rattati wonGÇÖt do anything about this at least for the next 3 months.GÇ¥ Scout was on the top place, but now itGÇÖs time for the MidFrame to enjoy their glory. - BTW, I would urge everyone tho watch Pyrex EP4.42 This like a big slap on Rattati face. I hope we weak up soon lol. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8964	Posted - 2015.04.19 23:49:00 - [120] - Quote RedPencil wrote: - I think NK is in the critical spot. Any more than the current state will make it OP. Perhaps I was unclear about Nova Knives. I'm not suggesting that we make them stronger. I'm saying, what if equipping knives reduced a unit's scan profile? This would work around the current constraints of Falloff, which is aimed at preventing shotgun kill/spawn over-efficiency but likely contributes Nova Knife under-efficiency. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

RedPencil Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 180	Posted - 2015.04.20 00:27:00 - [121] - Quote Even a small change like falloff buff on KN could lead people to think it is OP. So I would rather not to put it to be jeopardized. On top of that, Rattati would totally refuse to apply a specific treatment like this as it clearly showed in the past (moving speed when hold NK). Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 799	Posted - 2015.04.20 00:39:00 - [122] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Imp Smash wrote: As an Amarr assault I die to scouts more than any other class. Also anecdotal -- but no less true. I ran AM Assault for a 'bit last month. To be frank, you've got no excuse if you're dying to Scouts in that suit. Run a precision enhancer, grab a vanilla scrambler rifle and pay attention. You should be killing the Scouts who get the drop on you far, far more often than they kill you. If you aren't keen on watching your TacNet, MyoFibs are another option. Get shotgunned in the back. Hop away. If you didn't inst-melt the Scout by reflex alone, he now has three bad options. Run away and try to find cover , "1v1 head-on fight" you with a sidearm, or try to rush through your ScR hipfire to get back into shotgun range ... at which point you need only hop again. I run a laser though...so yeah...none of that other stuff is an option. But hey, kudos on you for saying the exact same basic stuff everyone says and applies to all suits as though it applies more so to scouts somehow...
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8967	Posted - 2015.04.20 00:39:00 - [123] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Even a small change like falloff buff on KN could lead people to think it is OP. So I would rather not to put it to be jeopardized. On top of that, Rattati would totally refuse to apply a specific treatment like this as it clearly showed in the past (moving speed when hold NK). Not sure what you're getting at. Rattati's spent more time on the forums discussing Nova Knives than any other sidearm, and he has been consistent in his support of NK viability. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8967	Posted - 2015.04.20 00:49:00 - [124] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Imp Smash wrote: As an Amarr assault I die to scouts more than any other class. Also anecdotal -- but no less true. I ran AM Assault for a 'bit last month. To be frank, you've got no excuse if you're dying to Scouts in that suit. Run a precision enhancer, grab a vanilla scrambler rifle and pay attention. You should be killing the Scouts who get the drop on you far, far more often than they kill you. If you aren't keen on watching your TacNet, MyoFibs are another option. Get shotgunned in the back. Hop away. If you didn't inst-melt the Scout by reflex alone, he now has three bad options. Run away and try to find cover , "1v1 head-on fight" you with a sidearm, or try to rush through your ScR hipfire to get back into shotgun range ... at which point you need only hop again. I run a laser though...so yeah...none of that other stuff is an option. But hey, kudos on you for saying the exact same basic stuff everyone says and applies to all suits as though it applies more so to scouts somehow... Laser Rifle, huh? Yeah, you're pretty much screwed if a SG Scout catches you alone and gets in close, just like a Sniper or Forge Gunner. That said, you could equip a couple Myofibs and run a TY-5. That thing rips through pretty much every one of my Scout fits. Get hit in the back. Hop away. Pop the Scout as he tries to re-close the gap. Your odds of a successful parry won't be as imbalanced as they'd be with an ScR, but they'll be better way better than zero. You could also put down the Laser Rifle :P Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
RedPencil Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 180	Posted - 2015.04.20 01:13:00 - [125] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: ..... Rattati's spent more time on the forums discussing Nova Knives than any other sidearm..... This is exactly why NK canGÇÖt have anything more than what it currently has. It would jeopardize the NK. Ratati already buff this weapon to be viable. Thank to what he did, the knife itself still viable when you compare it to other sidearm. It may be less effective than before, but the overall, it still be a competitive weapon. So I donGÇÖt think he would focus on this. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 9550	Posted - 2015.04.20 01:20:00 - [126] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: ..... Rattati's spent more time on the forums discussing Nova Knives than any other sidearm..... This is exactly why NK canGÇÖt have anything more than what it currently has. It would jeopardize the NK. Ratati already buff this weapon to be viable. Thank to what he did, the knife itself still viable when you compare it to other sidearm. It may be less effective than before, but the overall, it still be a competitive weapon. So I donGÇÖt think he would focus on this. It all depends on what his K/S say. If knifers are having problems, he will make changes. Its that simple. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 799	Posted - 2015.04.20 03:09:00 - [127] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Imp Smash wrote: As an Amarr assault I die to scouts more than any other class. Also anecdotal -- but no less true. I ran AM Assault for a 'bit last month. To be frank, you've got no excuse if you're dying to Scouts in that suit. Run a precision enhancer, grab a vanilla scrambler rifle and pay attention. You should be killing the Scouts who get the drop on you far, far more often than they kill you. If you aren't keen on watching your TacNet, MyoFibs are another option. Get shotgunned in the back. Hop away. If you didn't inst-melt the Scout by reflex alone, he now has three bad options. Run away and try to find cover , "1v1 head-on fight" you with a sidearm, or try to rush through your ScR hipfire to get back into shotgun range ... at which point you need only hop again. I run a laser though...so yeah...none of that other stuff is an option. But hey, kudos on you for saying the exact same basic stuff everyone says and applies to all suits as though it applies more so to scouts somehow... Laser Rifle, huh? Yeah, you're pretty much screwed if a SG Scout catches you alone and gets in close, just like a Sniper or Forge Gunner. That said, you could equip a couple Myofibs and run a TY-5. That thing rips through pretty much every one of my Scout fits. Get hit in the back. Hop away. Pop the Scout as he tries to re-close the gap. Your odds of a successful parry won't be as imbalanced as they'd be with an ScR, but they'll be better way better than zero. You could also put down the Laser Rifle :P 1, I shouldn't have to and 2, Dodging the point. I assert that scouts still can slay decently. In fact I know they can because I see it. You ask for scout buffs -- that would allow them to slay better. I rebut. You dodge the point with a somewhat poorly disguised piece of advice that is, essentially, like saying, "just shoot!" Asking for scout buffs after the Scout 514 debacle, dodging the point on rebuttals. Less than impressive <.< mic drop /emote 'On to other things'
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 8977	Posted - 2015.04.20 04:00:00 - [128] - Quote Srsly? You "shouldn't have to" what? You shouldn't have to watch your six? You shouldn't have to put effort into surviving when you fail to do so? You shouldn't have to plan for the massive disadvantage you find yourself in when a CQC unit catches you off-guard and from behind while you're wielding a long-range weapon with negligible effect at close range? I can't help you, friend, if you're unwilling to help yourself. But I do hope you find a way get good. Also, I hope you actually read the arguments in this thread if/when you have time; they're less about buffing Scouts than you think. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley


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"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.