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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9475
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Posted - 2015.04.17 02:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Scan Stuff
Logis out-support all else Assaults out-slay all else Heavies out-tank all else Do Scouts out-scan all else? Inner Rings are all more or less created equal; run a precision enhancer or two, and spot everything that gets within 5 or so meters. Outer Rings are all more or less created equal; if a unit makes any effort to dampen, that unit will not be picked up in Outer Rings. So is the Middle Ring that sets the Scout apart from the pack? I'd argue a single Active Scanner scanner out-recons any recon Scout. Enter the GalLogi, and there is truly no comparison. If scans are intended to set Scouts apart, then I believe scans need to be overhauled. You don't have to be the best at something to get WP and contribute. I'd dispute the out slay all else. Assault players are your bro's who don't really have the best of anything, just are close to everything, at least scouts have visual cloaking, very potent biotic modules, and adaptability over most other classes.
Of those things you mentioned towards the end, Assaults can use just as well, if not in many cases better, with the exception of the cloak. Which in many cases is highly visible, and given the nature of the cloak delay, becomes an overly significant draw back (The delay of switch is actually something like 3 seconds, with a decloak delay of a couple seconds, so that you are essentially visible for 1 second before being able to fire. If you are spotted while cloaked, you essentially have a 3 second delay before being able to defend yourself, all while having a fraction of the HP).
This game heavily rewards HP more than EWAR in its current state.
Every suit should have a role, and Scouts really don't anymore. We can neither beat all scans, nor out scan. We can't stealthily engage in CQC, nor do we have the HP to bother ambushing mercs at range. Everything we can do that is special, Assaults can do well enough that when adding their other advantages, diminishes the strategic incentives for using a Scout suit instead.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9508
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Posted - 2015.04.18 00:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Did a little research.
The numbers he is quoting are the original numbers from the original post on the subject here.
He is likely unaware that the numbers changed after that point, and the numbers in game are now different.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9508
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Posted - 2015.04.18 00:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Thx, OEK. True Adamance wasn't up-to-speed on scans either. I need to be more careful not to jump down people's throats when they claim that "everything is fine" or "scouts should be scouting". It is possible that many more folks out there are simply unaware that EWAR has changed, not to mention how hard the EWAR nerfs hit Scouts.
Especially when so many people who at one point ran scouts never cared about the EWAR anyways. Those of us whose games revolved around it were hurt more than those that weren't.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9510
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Posted - 2015.04.18 01:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I still scout and it feels fine.
Maybe you're using scouts wrong? Assaults are light fighters, scouts are more highly mobile support- harassing the enemy indirectly by hacking ****, squashing hidden uplinks, and hunting snipers/swarms.
If you get into a fight as a scout that doesn't involve you killing someone before they know what's going on, you're doing it wrong.
That is just it.
If you are chasing an Assault that happens to be only slightly less fast than you, while having 2 or 3 times the HP, you are going to pop up on their system and there is no way around it. They should be vulnerable, but they aren't because of their speed and the inner circle. They will know I am chasing them before I can reasonably be able to do something.
And then we are back to the face to face point again.
I don't want to be equal in a face to face encounter, but I don't want encounters fundamentally involving stealth and flanking turning into a face to face battle and having no counter to that.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9515
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Posted - 2015.04.18 02:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Racro 01 Arifistan wrote:profile damps are stronger in percentage bonus than precision enhancments.
if an assault fits one precsion enhancement. and your scout hasn't put any damps on its understandable that the assult can see you.
if iam right at max skills for precision and dampening an assault has 41/41. a compelx enhancement makes this 36/41.
if an assult is seeing you with this your DEFENTLY doing it wrong.
heres the gall scout at max skills running 1 precision and 2 damps. (complex)
gall scout 26/16.
gall assault 32/41.
no way in hell even in cqc will the assult see the scout comeing. HOWEVER visually spoting the scout will always beat your radar(tacnet)
even if the assult was running 2 complex precisions and 3 complex damps.
27/20 I think it is.
compared to the gall scout
26/16.
if anything the scouts.....minus the caldari (we all know about your hitbox) are in a good spot right now. if the caldari scouts hitbox was increased to the size of the gall everything would be fine.
You aren't taking inner rings into account...
The lowest any Scout can get, is 13dB, which is a Gal Scout with max skills and 4 Complex Dampeners. Any Medium Frame only needs 2 Complex Enhancers to achieve inner circle precision of 13 dB.
This means that a Medium Frame has to sacrifice just half of the number of module slots, and can easily have 2 or 3 times the HP of the Scout, and in the case of Assaults, roughly the same speed.
And this is the MOST GENEROUS scenario for Scouts. Amarr, Minmatar, and Caldari don't have the same luxury, as they can't get below 15/16.
You can throw on a cloak, but that will require decloaking, which will leave you lit up for an entire second without being able to retaliate. At that point the cloak is not only useless, but a detriment.
If your assumptions were correct, that would be fine. And they are fine if you were talking pre circle EWAR, but we aren't.
There is zero ability to defeat inner ring scans, with limited sacrifices on behalf of Medium Frames despite significant sacrifices of scouts, on top of other inherent disadvantages.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9525
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Posted - 2015.04.18 19:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
I'm of the opinion that High HP and High Mobility should not coexist. These two stats contribute more to survivability than any other,
Having a scaled inverse relationship between those two with Scouts at one end and Sentinels at the other makes sense to me. And I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one.  0.02 ISK Cross The problem with the statement here is minmatar suits if you speed spike them are almost as fragile as a scout If you armor them up they lose the speed advantage. If you brick 'em they're almost as easy to hit as a sentinel. Min suits can do a little but of everything. But if you do that you wind up being someone's punch dummy. If you specialize the fit you lose the versatility factor. The gallente suit is the other fast suit, and bluntly the insistance that gallente weapons be universally CQC means if you choose to use them you have to be able to fast attack. Scouts? Speed spiked scouts can be inside your guard before they register on the scanner. The only time I have an easy time of them us when they jump at me. Thank you myofib spam. Damped scouts are weird. Bluntly the scanner mechanics are pretty much boned. They need to have a margin for error randomizer so scout damping isn't utterly dependent upon having as low a DB as possible. Honestly the suits themselves have never been horrible. The mechanics orbiting the suits, however...
I think you under estimate what the HP difference of Min Scouts/Assaults are, and how that factors into actual game play.
I have a M-1 Assault that I simply dampen, and throw on a CR and Flaylock, and have significantly more survivability in terms of scoutly type play. I can flank, engage, and overcome any HP disadvantages with stealth (aside from heavies, but that is as it should be).
Because I have a weapon which has an effective range greater than the scans that would pick me up, it is really not a problem. And because of the innate speed, I really don't even need to speed tank, just dampen.
On my Minja, not only do I have to dampen to make Knifing even remotely viable, I have so little HP that I often cannot even make any evasive maneuvers before being killed once spotted. I try constantly to find cover, and usually die as soon as I am spotted. And cloaking helps only marginally in the open given how visible being cloaked still is.
To suggest that Scouts have always been "fine" goes against what we know given the pre 1.8 history. At the very least, Assaults are over performing at the moment, which needs addressing, and perhaps that will be sufficient.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9550
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Posted - 2015.04.20 01:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
RedPencil wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:..... Rattati's spent more time on the forums discussing Nova Knives than any other sidearm..... This is exactly why NK canGÇÖt have anything more than what it currently has. It would jeopardize the NK. Ratati already buff this weapon to be viable. Thank to what he did, the knife itself still viable when you compare it to other sidearm. It may be less effective than before, but the overall, it still be a competitive weapon. So I donGÇÖt think he would focus on this.
It all depends on what his K/S say.
If knifers are having problems, he will make changes. Its that simple.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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