Scorched Earth tactics are burning everything as you fall back to prevent the enemy from using it.

Scorched Earth tactics are -NOT- letting them have it anyway and giving them a run for their money with absolutely no risk on your end.

It'd be cool if it were a choice factor but this is an obvious choice. If I lose the first battle for the district, the second is where I start weighing my options. If I feel it's absolutely necessary to keep the district, I'll fight - otherwise, why bother wasting ISK? It's not a choice, it's a default, and every PC entity -ever- will make that choice; thereby, it's not so much a choice as a "use this tactic always and forever".

It's going to get old -real freaggin quick- and, again, I see absolutely no reason why it should be a thing. The entire point of all of this was to offer good fights, wasn't it? Why sacrifice or risk those good fights by giving a mechanic like this when the simple solution is to simply prevent BPO's and APEX suits from being used in PC?

Every time I brought up BPOs and APEXs, I heard "we don't have an economy for them to affect". Okay, well, we have player trading. We have asset selling. How far back are we going to move this goal post before we start seriously considering the implications that riskless, lossless assets have on the game?

EDIT: Long story short, you're just taking one terrible meta (players giving up early and just letting their enemies have the district) and replacing it with another (fielding BPOs and doing damage with no risk/loss). The only players losing with this new mechanic are the attackers.

That lowers the payout for all match types (outside of FW) since earnings are directly effected by the value of assets destroyed in match.

youll lose ISK either way. BPO's or not, they can still use militia gear.

Bleed their ISK...BLEED IT!!!

Planning to do things is well and good but there is an extremely well established history of things coming "Soon" that either never do OR take way too long to happen. Meanwhile, the game suffers. Missing the pilot suits or all racial vehicles is one thing, this is supposed to be the top-level, flagship gamemode. And it just became no different than pubs except, as Regnyum^ pointed out, in the setup time.


And I don't see how this helps small groups, who from what I've seen often already run bpo's. Hey, geniuses! Isk attrition works both ways . You really think this sort of scheme is an advantage for you?? The rank-and-file mercs take a hit on the pay side while the leaders outright pocket or skim silly profits from clones sold off districts you aren't getting paid worth a **** to protect? Average payouts- direct to merc isk- on wins was 3-5 MILLION PER battle, plus whatever worthwhile salvage there is. No middle-manning, you just have to WIN. Compete Successfully, Get Paid. Now, if you're unsuccessful, you get paid off cheap gear and if you are successful you also get paid off cheap gear.


How does any actual working merc not see the paycut here?

I gave the numbers in my prior post and there is no way to make the millions you describe.
There are 150 clones per side, that is one hard limit, and the approximate value of a STD BPO fit is 10,125 (not the 32,000 minimum I mentioned, because to hit that value figure you'd have to be running something more that BPOs).

Even at the 32,000 figure, which again requires real ISK fits not BPOs, the max income is 4,800,000 ISK total for the entire team combined. So using your 4 man farm team context, and assuming a logi for uplinks as you described, that's 960,000 ISK per player. If it takes ~15 sec per kill, 4 kills per cycle that's about 10 minutes for those guys to farm up that much ISK assuming ideal conditions and willing participants on the other side. Also excluding the times for opening deployment and set up. The thing is that ~960k can only be made if the other team is using ISK fits and thus losing money.
Using the BPO value of 10,125 or less gives us a max of 1,518,750 again divided by your proposed team of 5.
303,750. So that's still a decent take, but also much more of a pub level take, it requires players willing to respawn and be shot like clock work over and over again in that time, requires set up etc and even then is still an inflated figure because it doesn't account for the time of initial deployment.

Even beyond that these figures assume that you can deploy 4-5 people into one side (or both sides) of a battle and have it spin up and work properly which while it's how things work now may change.

lol, says the CapAq guy.

Scorched Earth tactics are burning everything as you fall back to prevent the enemy from using it.

Scorched Earth tactics are -NOT- letting them have it anyway and giving them a run for their money with absolutely no risk on your end.

It'd be cool if it were a choice factor but this is an obvious choice. If I lose the first battle for the district, the second is where I start weighing my options. If I feel it's absolutely necessary to keep the district, I'll fight - otherwise, why bother wasting ISK? It's not a choice, it's a default, and every PC entity -ever- will make that choice; thereby, it's not so much a choice as a "use this tactic always and forever".

It's going to get old -real freaggin quick- and, again, I see absolutely no reason why it should be a thing. The entire point of all of this was to offer good fights, wasn't it? Why sacrifice or risk those good fights by giving a mechanic like this when the simple solution is to simply prevent BPO's and APEX suits from being used in PC?

Every time I brought up BPOs and APEXs, I heard "we don't have an economy for them to affect". Okay, well, we have player trading. We have asset selling. How far back are we going to move this goal post before we start seriously considering the implications that riskless, lossless assets have on the game?

EDIT: Long story short, you're just taking one terrible meta (players giving up early and just letting their enemies have the district) and replacing it with another (fielding BPOs and doing damage with no risk/loss). The only players losing with this new mechanic are the attackers.

lol, says the CapAq guy.

Well since the primary profitability within PC in Rattatis new design has absolutely nothing to do with ISK at all, that aspect is non-issue.

I'm not entirely sure what you're worried about. People using cheap gear? Doesn't that simply encourage the opposing side to use cheaper gear as well? What it does is encourage a sense of "use the bare minimum of what is necessary to win" . If one team is using BPOs, then you should use BPOs as well. Don't have a BPO? Use a standard ISK suits.

Worried about losing money that way? You could literally mulch yourself in a PC match, and make all of the money you lost from running standard in a single pub match. The lost profitability from the other team running BPOs is simply not that much compared to them running standard suits and militia modules.

Or are you worried you'll need to use proto gear to beat a team using BPOs? Well then you probably shouldn't be in PC.

So again, under the new system, this simply allows people to use cheap gear to wear the enemy down if they want to. However since ownership of the district will actually provide benefit that isn't tied to ISK, what you end up with is a system where ISK is the means to fight the battle, but if you want to win, you're going to use the best you have because owning the district is valuable to you. So the moral of the story is, don't use more than you have to, but you might want to up it up a notch to secure the win if you want the true profit, which is in district ownership.

Awesome! Especially since I planned to get into PC in a few days time. Be warned, Y.A.M.A.H is coming!

This isn't some pub match, this is the end game meta. If there is one mode where the best of the best is encouraged to be used, this is it. Your idea on what PC should be is just wrong. There should be absolutely no incentive to run cheap gear, yet here it is.

This isn't just some glorified PUB match, where if you are losing, just switch to cheap fits and try to cause what little pain you can. You don't give up until those last few ticks, and even then you usually don't stop. All the while running proto.

This mode is for the elite of dust, go big or go home. Now it's just another PUB match until they come out with their "soon" changes that will make it worth it. Just stupid, they could have brought this change out with other incentives. Nope, overnight, hey guess what guys, you now make even less out of PC cause we NEEDED to fix this exploit priority.

Was it really that important that it need to be done NOW?

If they don't care about the win, they'll use cheap gear and try to dupe you into burning ISK on expensive stuff.

And I think many are missing the fundemental of what PC is. It's not about bringing cheap stuff to make a profit. You aren't hurting anyone by doing that. Sure you might get a larger than normal payout (by LOSING mind you), but what was the point of the battle. This shouldn't be some pub you go afk in.

We bring the best, and always will, and care little for the isk. Sometimes we don't even make a profit off a win. It's not about the isk for most of us, it's about the fight. And by encouraging the use of lesser gear to make a larger profit, there won't be many good fights.

This idea that people get caught up in that PC has been about isk are just crazy. Sure for a select few it was (and we wiped a few of those off the starmap ourselves), but not for all. This sudden change will have more negative affects than it will positive.

Sure it's easy to say chill out when you(and many others) aren't even involved in this mode. This didn't need to happen right this moment. I get that other changes are on the way, but without those changes, the only people that suffer are those that are already heavily invested into PC. And for what reason?????

Yeah, I'm pissed, and others like me have every right to be. This isn't hurting the corps, but the PLAYERS.

And I think many are missing the fundemental of what PC is. It's not about bringing cheap stuff to make a profit. You aren't hurting anyone by doing that. Sure you might get a larger than normal payout (by LOSING mind you), but what was the point of the battle. This shouldn't be some pub you go afk in.

We bring the best, and always will, and care little for the isk. Sometimes we don't even make a profit off a win. It's not about the isk for most of us, it's about the fight. And by encouraging the use of lesser gear to make a larger profit, there won't be many good fights.

This idea that people get caught up in that PC has been about isk are just crazy. Sure for a select few it was (and we wiped a few of those off the starmap ourselves), but not for all. This sudden change will have more negative affects than it will positive.

Sure it's easy to say chill out when you(and many others) aren't even involved in this mode. This didn't need to happen right this moment. I get that other changes are on the way, but without those changes, the only people that suffer are those that are already heavily invested into PC. And for what reason?????

Yeah, I'm pissed, and others like me have every right to be. This isn't hurting the corps, but the PLAYERS.

Well since the primary profitability within PC in Rattatis new design has absolutely nothing to do with ISK at all, that aspect is non-issue.

I'm not entirely sure what you're worried about. People using cheap gear? Doesn't that simply encourage the opposing side to use cheaper gear as well? What it does is encourage a sense of "use the bare minimum of what is necessary to win" . If one team is using BPOs, then you should use BPOs as well. Don't have a BPO? Use a standard ISK suits.

Worried about losing money that way? You could literally mulch yourself in a PC match, and make all of the money you lost from running standard in a single pub match. The lost profitability from the other team running BPOs is simply not that much compared to them running standard suits and militia modules.

Or are you worried you'll need to use proto gear to beat a team using BPOs? Well then you probably shouldn't be in PC.

So again, under the new system, this simply allows people to use cheap gear to wear the enemy down if they want to. However since ownership of the district will actually provide benefit that isn't tied to ISK, what you end up with is a system where ISK is the means to fight the battle, but if you want to win, you're going to use the best you have because owning the district is valuable to you. So the moral of the story is, don't use more than you have to, but you might want to up it up a notch to secure the win if you want the true profit, which is in district ownership.

Militia gear still has an ISK loss. I'll take all militia gear over all BPO's any day. A marginal loss to my opponent's wallet is worth far more than absolutely nothing but gains for them. EDIT: Not to mention, it's harder to fit and usually comes with stuff like reduced magazine sizes and what not. So it's better all around than riskless BPO's which are on-par with Standard gear.

S'whatever, I've said my piece. If I do start doing PCs again I'll just abstain from ever participating in a second/third match because it will be utter BS.

I guess I don't see PC as "Must use Proto or it isn't fun" but rather a war of economy. Do you feel that the quality of gameplay in PC would be lessened if everyone ran something less than proto? I guess for me, a gun is a gun, tier just defines how much damage it does but the amount of needed damage also depends on how much defense the dude I'm shooting has.

Now you could make the argument that lower suits have less flexibility and fun because of lack of slots, totally with you on that, which is why I support flatlined slot layouts, that's a different issue entirely.

I guess I don't see it as "encouraging you to use the cheapest gear possible. If ISK isn't the issue, isn't it more an encouragement to use whatever gear is necessary to beat the enemy? And if the enemy really wants to win and take your district, won't they use the best they can?

you are taking out roles that ccp intended to be played in every game, there is no such thing as a cheap logi suit that would be viable, bpo links why? 15 seconds can not be used tactically . tanks forget about it, so there for av role is gone. theres 3 roles automatically thrown out of pc. its pretty much the same now as an ambush game mode just with an objective.

Would you not define PC as endgame content? I think most would. Endgame content consists of using what assets (skills points) you have amassed in order to be competitive with others or be challenged in another way. Since Dust is a strictly multiplayer game, it the endgame content should be highly competitive and require the highest level of everything (skill and gear) in order to compete.

...welcome to #lolPUBS 2.0 ;)

You do realize that there will be profitability in PC 2.0 besides ISK right? Profitability that can be used to recoup losses from using higher tiered gear in battles.




Then use the highest level gear you can, either your enemy will do the same, or you will crush them.

Gear is not a function of skill or ability, it's entirely based off of how much time you've spent playing the game, and how much ISK you have.

---

The point I'll make before I leave the thread is basically....yes it sucks now, not sure why they decided to do this before the 2.0 rollout....likely to set expectations for ISK payouts. But the fact remains that profitability in PC 2.0 is not tied to ISK, in fact it's almost entirely NOT ISK. That being said, getting upset over a drastic change in ISK payout is pointless because you'll be recouping your costs via other means. You will still be expected and able to run Proto gear because owning the district actually produces far more profit, than battle to battle earnings.

If you want to be profitable in the long run, hold the district. If you want to hold the district, use what it takes to hold the district. That is where you bread and butter is.

If people attack your district and harass you with cheap gear, then use cheap gear against them and win. If they really want to take the district, which is the real source of income, they wont be using BPOs. So will you have to deal with people trying to raid you using BPOs? Yes. That's part of defending your turf, so don't use more than you have to to fend them off. However it's the people that bring the Proto because they're looking to take your district, that's the true End-Game.

So does it suck right now? Yes. But quite honestly it seems like many of the people who are freaking out are not really seeing and comprehending the whole picture of what PC 2.0 is supposed to entail. You won't be seeing BPO vs BPO battles for district control, because if the defender wants to hold their ****, they're going to bring out bigger guns, and if the attackers want to take that ****, they'll do the same. For the battles that actually matter, you'll still see the best of the best throwing everything they have against each other.

Pokey, the more commentary I read from you in tryng to justify this the more utterly divorced from the reality of the topic I realize you are.

We've seen bpo's fielded in PC ever since bpo's were available. "Serious" battles or otherwise.

"Battle to battle earnings" has been by far the best and fairest payment system to date. Paid for performance, direct to the merc. No passive accrual, no active generation reliant on however many different people to get a merc PAID for a battle.

There is NO profitability without isk. ANY other, extra means or ethergoo or w/e ultimately is converted to ISK and every single step in between Fighting and Gettin' Paid is a timewaster, a chance to not be paid properly OR BOTH.

...people are freaking out because the profit isn't going to be in their pockets immediately at the end of battle. However if you're getting BMKs deposited into your account because you've continued to successfully defended (sic) your district, you're still getting paid in a currency which allows you to buy the same damn thing that you would have with isk. I honestly do not see how that is problematic (pending actual final numbers of course)