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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
997
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Posted - 2015.04.15 11:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote: Then let's set the math aside.
What functional, logical, immersive, or performance gaining reason do you have for having BPO's in PC? What is their functional purpose other than exploiting a defensive move to freely defend a district you know you are going to lose and forcing the enemy to incur ISK losses by doing so? How is that in any way fair for the attackers who have to deal with it?
Are you saying that scorched earth tactics are an exploit? To that sounds like a war of economy. To me, it seems incredibly meta to use cheap/free gear in order to dupe the enemy into incurring more losses than they intended. If I know I'm going to lose a battle, I'm going to make damn sure that I make the guy taking my stuff suffer as much as possible. I think that in of itself, New Eden at its finest. Now don't get me wrong, in the current state of PC with this being the ONLY profitability in a district....it's not a good thing. However pending upcoming changes, I could see it as a valid tactic in winning the ISK war (since innate profitability will be baked into owning a district outside of ISK) Scorched Earth tactics are burning everything as you fall back to prevent the enemy from using it. Scorched Earth tactics are -NOT- letting them have it anyway and giving them a run for their money with absolutely no risk on your end. It'd be cool if it were a choice factor but this is an obvious choice. If I lose the first battle for the district, the second is where I start weighing my options. If I feel it's absolutely necessary to keep the district, I'll fight - otherwise, why bother wasting ISK? It's not a choice, it's a default, and every PC entity -ever- will make that choice; thereby, it's not so much a choice as a "use this tactic always and forever". It's going to get old -real freaggin quick- and, again, I see absolutely no reason why it should be a thing. The entire point of all of this was to offer good fights, wasn't it? Why sacrifice or risk those good fights by giving a mechanic like this when the simple solution is to simply prevent BPO's and APEX suits from being used in PC? Every time I brought up BPOs and APEXs, I heard "we don't have an economy for them to affect". Okay, well, we have player trading. We have asset selling. How far back are we going to move this goal post before we start seriously considering the implications that riskless, lossless assets have on the game? EDIT: Long story short, you're just taking one terrible meta (players giving up early and just letting their enemies have the district) and replacing it with another (fielding BPOs and doing damage with no risk/loss). The only players losing with this new mechanic are the attackers.
youll lose ISK either way. BPO's or not, they can still use militia gear. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1000
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Posted - 2015.04.15 20:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote: Then let's set the math aside.
What functional, logical, immersive, or performance gaining reason do you have for having BPO's in PC? What is their functional purpose other than exploiting a defensive move to freely defend a district you know you are going to lose and forcing the enemy to incur ISK losses by doing so? How is that in any way fair for the attackers who have to deal with it?
Are you saying that scorched earth tactics are an exploit? To that sounds like a war of economy. To me, it seems incredibly meta to use cheap/free gear in order to dupe the enemy into incurring more losses than they intended. If I know I'm going to lose a battle, I'm going to make damn sure that I make the guy taking my stuff suffer as much as possible. I think that in of itself, New Eden at its finest. Now don't get me wrong, in the current state of PC with this being the ONLY profitability in a district....it's not a good thing. However pending upcoming changes, I could see it as a valid tactic in winning the ISK war (since innate profitability will be baked into owning a district outside of ISK) Scorched Earth tactics are burning everything as you fall back to prevent the enemy from using it. Scorched Earth tactics are -NOT- letting them have it anyway and giving them a run for their money with absolutely no risk on your end. It'd be cool if it were a choice factor but this is an obvious choice. If I lose the first battle for the district, the second is where I start weighing my options. If I feel it's absolutely necessary to keep the district, I'll fight - otherwise, why bother wasting ISK? It's not a choice, it's a default, and every PC entity -ever- will make that choice; thereby, it's not so much a choice as a "use this tactic always and forever". It's going to get old -real freaggin quick- and, again, I see absolutely no reason why it should be a thing. The entire point of all of this was to offer good fights, wasn't it? Why sacrifice or risk those good fights by giving a mechanic like this when the simple solution is to simply prevent BPO's and APEX suits from being used in PC? Every time I brought up BPOs and APEXs, I heard "we don't have an economy for them to affect". Okay, well, we have player trading. We have asset selling. How far back are we going to move this goal post before we start seriously considering the implications that riskless, lossless assets have on the game? EDIT: Long story short, you're just taking one terrible meta (players giving up early and just letting their enemies have the district) and replacing it with another (fielding BPOs and doing damage with no risk/loss). The only players losing with this new mechanic are the attackers. youll lose ISK either way. BPO's or not, they can still use militia gear. Militia gear still has an ISK loss. I'll take all militia gear over all BPO's any day. A marginal loss to my opponent's wallet is worth far more than absolutely nothing but gains for them. EDIT: Not to mention, it's harder to fit and usually comes with stuff like reduced magazine sizes and what not. So it's better all around than riskless BPO's which are on-par with Standard gear. S'whatever, I've said my piece. If I do start doing PCs again I'll just abstain from ever participating in a second/third match because it will be utter BS.
You can still force them out of BPO gear by using vehicles. If they want to cause isk losses to you then they'll need proto av. They can fling BPO av at you for WP but they'll be hard pressed to get a kill. Escalate the match and be smart. You can always run BPO yourself after securing a victory to deny them a payout
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1001
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Posted - 2015.04.16 02:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
The only people who'll be running BPO's in PC are noobs that don't know what they're doing, and vets that know exactly what they're doing.
I'm going to make sure I win the match, but I'll do it as efficiently as possible. If I know you suck... And lots of you do even in proto, I'll just murder you in BPO gear. This is great because I've always played this way.
The only people going to suffer from this are the ones who only do well while wear proto. The guys that'll make isk by the boat load are the guys that kill you in your proto while they're wearing apex suits.
Proto gear < skill < experience
Stop embarrassing yourselves with all the complaints that you can't make isk in proto anymore. The best of us are isk positive no matter what we wear or use. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1004
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Posted - 2015.04.16 06:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Silver Strike44 wrote:I just played two PC battles between high level corps. In both battles, a decent amount of clones, all in proto gear as far as I know, were lost and the team I was on won. The first game I earned about 1.1 million ISK and lost 8 suits, I believe. Each of the suits I lost cost me around 190k ISK. That is a net loss of around 400k ISK. In the next battle, I earned around 1 million ISK and lost 5 of those 190k ISK suits. That is a net gain of around 50k ISK. Over the course of two PCs where only proto was used between two high level corps and I wouldnt say I died more than a reasonable amount of times, I lost a few hundred thousand ISK. The corp I played for earned nothing in the way of ISK, just a meaningless district and none of the people on my team gained a significant amount of ISK if they earned ISK at all. Is this not ridiculous?
Thinking back to how you performed in those matches and what you accomplished, was a proto suit necessary to do it? Could you have accomplished the same tasks in a cheaper suit?
I average about 5 deaths a match. Pub, fw, PC, it doesn't matter. I average those 5 deaths whether I'm wearing apex, adv, or proto. So knowing this, I'll say that the gear I use is irrelevant to my performance. I average 13 kills a match. If I can do it in apex, why use proto? |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1004
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Posted - 2015.04.16 12:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Look, there is no justifying the use of BPO's or APEX's in PC.
The entire point of both of those were for players to accumulate ISK - citing we didn't have an economy to screw over - and that's the entire reason for them existing now while looking cool. The looking cool bit is being hashed out with SKINs and we now have player trading and asset selling which is, essentially, a rudimentary economy. We have trade forums now and this only strengthens the argument that the economy is now in play.
I feel like I'm repeating myself with this (maybe because it wasn't properly tackled the last time I brought it up, for whatever reason).
In PC though? They're fundamentally unnecessary. Looking cool? SKINs. Accumulating ISK? You should not be doing this in PC and as Pokey keeps bringing up, profitability isn't in ISK with PC 2.0 (even though he admits that right now it's not in play and the system is derp). I'm -REALLY- having serious doubts as to why BPO's and APEX's should have any role at all in PC other than the inevitable: Weaponized Boredom through lack of good fights, and Cheapskating using an exploited, gamed system of "Keep What You Kill".
So the enemy team wants to use cheap stuff... Who cares right? Well, when the only thing holding them back from attacking your district is the clones to actually assault it than what's to stop them from starting a War of Attrition on you and just burning you out of both ISK and patience? Instead of asking "Why would they use BPOs", ask "Why -WOULDN'T- they use BPOs?"
They can assault you with riskless/lossless BPO's/APEX's as long as they have clones and if you attack them they'll just use all the ISK they've saved up from kicking your hind quarters to field the best gear. If they look like they're losing? They'll just default back to the BPO, give you a run for your money at no cost to them, and then you have more territory than you can feasible defend and they just repeat the process until they get their districts back - but now with a bank of ISK they generated from kicking you while you're down.
Give it time. Once people start realizing that there's no other way to make ISK in PC and PC is fundamentally worthless otherwise until -MAYBE- a tentative June/July release (according to the roadmap Trello) they're just going to default to the easiest option available: BPO's, Attrition, Boredom, and Bull****.
Again, I've seen a lot of justification for why a person would -want- to use them but absolutely no justification as to why they should be in PC for any reason other than exploiting a gamed system.
BPO's need to be in PC because they serve as entry level for new corps to try things out. BPO's combined with warbages producing clones will allow active corps with Command Points, a point of entry into PC.
BPO's in PC is no different than using Rookie Ships in sov warfare in eve. |
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