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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
2647
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Posted - 2015.04.05 19:00:00 -
[61] - Quote
Luther Mandrix wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:I think it's in a good place right now, but I'm not a CEO.
Looking forward to seeing what PC can change and become. Just so long as we don't see a return to the days of nobody fighting and the big blue donut. There is an exploit that needs to be stamped out. If everyone wants to just hold hands and sing kumbaya, I still don't think I have an answer for that Sansha,Jove, NPCs like Pirates should start battles using Pub Base as needed. To keep things moving. Npcs should be able to take districts also.Maybe someone in CCP Shanghi can start attacks for NPCS in PC Love this. If nobody is raiding the PC landholders, popup special contracts from the npc pirate corps.
PSN: RationalSpark
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
11423
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Posted - 2015.04.05 19:03:00 -
[62] - Quote
I'm sure CCP has models for jet fighters since they were originally available to players back during the very-early days of closed beta or maybe alpha. Though I'm not sure how a rudimentary AI would be able to handle jet fighters if they are ever used as pirate NPC attacking PC districts.
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6476
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Posted - 2015.04.05 19:08:00 -
[63] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Luther Mandrix wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:I think it's in a good place right now, but I'm not a CEO.
Looking forward to seeing what PC can change and become. Just so long as we don't see a return to the days of nobody fighting and the big blue donut. There is an exploit that needs to be stamped out. If everyone wants to just hold hands and sing kumbaya, I still don't think I have an answer for that Sansha,Jove, NPCs like Pirates should start battles using Pub Base as needed. To keep things moving. Npcs should be able to take districts also.Maybe someone in CCP Shanghi can start attacks for NPCS in PC Love this. If nobody is raiding the PC landholders, popup special contracts from the npc pirate corps.
No showing raids makes districts vulnerable. If vulnerable districts aren't attacked within 24 hours then NPC corp flips it, making it flip able by simply launching a raid.
I don't think this would happen much, as I think as long as raids are potentially lucrative you would have a lot of activity at the bottom end of PC. If there isn't enough activity by the current landholders, you'd start to see new faces enter the fray.
These people wouldn't even have to be successful as landholders to make their own mark in PC. You'd still have the try hard PC battles, but you'd have to always be dealing with peasants pestering you. I can't help but imagine groups stepping up their game quickly working as a team in raids on a persistent basis.
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
2647
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Posted - 2015.04.05 19:09:00 -
[64] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Cross Atu wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:I think it's in a good place right now, but I'm not a CEO.
Looking forward to seeing what PC can change and become. Just so long as we don't see a return to the days of nobody fighting and the big blue donut. There is an exploit that needs to be stamped out. If everyone wants to just hold hands and sing kumbaya, I still don't think I have an answer for that Kumbaya makes drones very angry I mean, that requires drones which we don't have right now but hey, drones hate peace and tend to have suddenly violent AI so it makes some kind of sense right? I used to want nothing more than drones in this game. Now? I PRAY we never get them. Poorly animated drones with Turret AI? Lmfao No. Been spending a few days mulling over an idea for a completely different game mode: Let players run the drones.
Keep it as simple as possible: 3 drone models with a few loadouts each. It would be a completely separate account/character and while playing the drone a player would be anonymous(or maybe with a unique drone ID, not sure). Drone battles would not let you choose where to fight or who to fight.
No profit or loss just free experience.
That's the guts of it. Might be a great way to introduce players to PC-like battles.
PSN: RationalSpark
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6476
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Posted - 2015.04.05 19:11:00 -
[65] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I'm sure CCP has models for jet fighters since they were originally available to players back during the very-early days of closed beta or maybe alpha. Though I'm not sure how a rudimentary AI would be able to handle jet fighters if they are ever used as pirate NPC attacking PC districts.
I think the notion of adding controllable drones and things of that nature on this hardware is ridiculous.
Might as well ask for them to make your Johnson bigger. |
Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6476
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Posted - 2015.04.05 19:12:00 -
[66] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Cross Atu wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:I think it's in a good place right now, but I'm not a CEO.
Looking forward to seeing what PC can change and become. Just so long as we don't see a return to the days of nobody fighting and the big blue donut. There is an exploit that needs to be stamped out. If everyone wants to just hold hands and sing kumbaya, I still don't think I have an answer for that Kumbaya makes drones very angry I mean, that requires drones which we don't have right now but hey, drones hate peace and tend to have suddenly violent AI so it makes some kind of sense right? I used to want nothing more than drones in this game. Now? I PRAY we never get them. Poorly animated drones with Turret AI? Lmfao No. Been spending a few days mulling over an idea for a completely different game mode: Let players run the drones. Keep it as simple as possible: 3 drone models with a few loadouts each. It would be a completely separate account/character and while playing the drone a player would be anonymous(or maybe with a unique drone ID, not sure). Drone battles would not let you choose where to fight or who to fight. No profit or loss just free experience. That's the guts of it. Might be a great way to introduce players to PC-like battles.
This would prepare you for PC battles as much as playing Mario Cart would.
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Lady MDK
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
346
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Posted - 2015.04.05 19:23:00 -
[67] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I'm sure CCP has models for jet fighters since they were originally available to players back during the very-early days of closed beta or maybe alpha. Though I'm not sure how a rudimentary AI would be able to handle jet fighters if they are ever used as pirate NPC attacking PC districts.
Simplistic drones or drone infested vehicles (a simple reskin) might be easier (only if the AI understands terrain that is). Use the AI for turrets to pick targets (something that has shot the drone/got within a certain range) and make it relative idle until actvated then it tries to move into its optimal range/maintain its range.
Anyone getting annoyed by reading of the above post should consider the following.
I don't care so neither should you :)
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DUST Fiend
16253
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Posted - 2015.04.05 19:25:00 -
[68] - Quote
Lady MDK wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:I'm sure CCP has models for jet fighters since they were originally available to players back during the very-early days of closed beta or maybe alpha. Though I'm not sure how a rudimentary AI would be able to handle jet fighters if they are ever used as pirate NPC attacking PC districts. Simplistic drones or drone infested vehicles (a simple reskin) might be easier (only if the AI understands terrain that is). Use the AI for turrets to pick targets (something that has shot the drone/got within a certain range) and make it relative idle until actvated then it tries to move into its optimal range/maintain its range. If it used turret AI all you'd have to do is stand next to them and they wouldn't target you
Contests, Sales, Writing etc
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2476
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Posted - 2015.04.05 19:28:00 -
[69] - Quote
All this talk of drones
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
2647
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Posted - 2015.04.05 19:55:00 -
[70] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote: ...... This would prepare you for PC battles as much as playing Mario Cart would.
I understand what you're saying but disagree in a sense.
With pubs separated by mu and assuming someday viable and engaging PC & FW, a player-drone mode might well be the only way new players can be exposed to older players playing at the top of the game. That will be an eye opener for many.
Give the drones a 500 'clone' count, solid ehp/regen and instant respawn and some peeps will learn through observation/repetition. Because there's nothing to lose or fittings to puzzle over everything comes down to strategy, teamwork, tactics and gungame.
PSN: RationalSpark
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
2647
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Posted - 2015.04.05 19:58:00 -
[71] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:I'm sure CCP has models for jet fighters since they were originally available to players back during the very-early days of closed beta or maybe alpha. Though I'm not sure how a rudimentary AI would be able to handle jet fighters if they are ever used as pirate NPC attacking PC districts. I think the notion of adding controllable drones and things of that nature on this hardware is ridiculous. Might as well ask for them to make your Johnson bigger. It's prolly less resource intensive than animating mercs.
Anyway i'm gonna drop the drone thing now, it's borderline off-topic and everything important has already been said.
PSN: RationalSpark
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RolyatDerTeufel
NOMAD.
1847
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Posted - 2015.04.05 20:02:00 -
[72] - Quote
*favorites* *has read to this point*
On phone or I'd actually respond.
LIVE on Royal.TV
Transmission Holocron
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Vell0cet
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2912
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Posted - 2015.04.05 20:27:00 -
[73] - Quote
I'm not a CEO and never plan to be. I don't have strong opinions about any particular PC implementation detail, but I do have a set of heuristics that might be useful for guiding design.
1. Corps should be incentivized to field as many players as they can instead of an elite core team of 16-32 players. You shouldn't be punished for fielding only 16 if you want to, but if corp A only uses 16 players and corp B uses 60 unique players over the course of many battles, corp B should have some sort of significant advantage/benefit. Unique players should be counted across multiple accounts (via IP address or something), in other words 1 player using 4 accounts still only counts as 1 player for this purpose.
2. Ringing should be possible, but again the incentives should be set-up so that there is a significant benefit to using a player on your "junior varsity" squad instead of pulling someone in from another corp.
3. There should be some notion of spreading yourself too thin. So it's more advantageous to hold a small cluster of districts, than to spread yourself across a wide area. Distance and proximity should be meaningful. As a result of this some districts may have more strategic value for a corp than others.
4. I'd love to see bases be these modular things (with CPG/PG) that CEOs upgrade with various structures on the map (similar to planetary interaction in EVE). Obviously this is completely beyond the scope of anything currently possible, but perhaps we can work towards this direction. It would be cool if there were ISK sinks for district ownership. Maybe we start small, and allow CEO's to upgrade turrets on the districts (take longer for enemies to hack, faster for allies to hack). Maybe they do more damage, have more hit points, larger aggro radius, and begin the match already blue to the defenders with AI that fires on enemy infantry when it gets in range instead of only firing when fired upon.
This could be the kind of thing raiding does to weaken the enemy defenses. You raid and win several battles and the upgrades that the defenders had paid ISK for are lost. That would create opportunities for a push to capture the district itself.
5. There should be a benefit to owning land. That benefit has to be reasonably balanced. It should primarily be an active benefit and not a passive one.
6. It should be reasonably easy for a new corp to get involved in PC. This mechanism shouldn't be exploitable to allow corps to make shadow corps to pressure their enemies.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
5619
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Posted - 2015.04.05 20:33:00 -
[74] - Quote
There is no such thing as a passive benefit in PC.
If you own land, its going to be threatened. That means you're active enough to defend it, or you're not.
The mere concept of passive isk only ever applied to Nyain San because they were able to sit behind timers nobody could bother with.
Usually banned for being too awesome.
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
1120
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Posted - 2015.04.05 20:37:00 -
[75] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:There is no such thing as a passive benefit in PC.
If you own land, its going to be threatened. That means you're active enough to defend it, or you're not.
The mere concept of passive isk only ever applied to Nyain San because they were able to sit behind timers nobody could bother with. There can be though, if a group of players gather enough above average players to take over. Precedent is still precedent even though the community has undergone massive changes.
The Japanese corps get a lot of passive benefit because they've allied themselves and there's not enough opposition in other timezones that will mitigate it.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Alena Ventrallis
Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback
2948
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Posted - 2015.04.05 20:41:00 -
[76] - Quote
Here's the problem with PC. The only reason to egt into PC... is to do PC. I gain no benefit of PC outside of doing even more PC. As mentioned earlier it becomes "I do raids in order to get better gear to go do more raids." What can PC give me that pubs do not?
Now we could have owning districts give bonuses in Dust, like extra damage, more health, better regen, cheaper item costs, etc. But then we widen the gulf between the haves and the have-nots. The reason sovereignty and wars work (well, somewhat) in Eve is because there is so much more to do in Eve than PVP. There's mining, ratting, industry, missioning, all kinds of activities that aren't about killing other players. So by owning systems in nullsec, I can provide an area to have miners get resources for my industry moguls, who then build ships and modules for me to go gain even more systems. All of the considerations of war, from the fighting to the logitics and supply lines, are player-controlled. Dust has no such variety. We can kill other players in pubs, kill other players in FW, or kill other players in PC. No other options for gameplay exist. No industry, no mining, no PVE content... Only PVP, PVP, PVP. So any bonus we give to districts either is OP, like a damage bonus for owning a district, separating the rich from the poor even more, or you give a bonus to clone packs or other PC logistics, which returns us to the "I raid to get gear to raid with" circle.
What we need, and honestly should have had from the beginning, is non-PVP gameplay in Dust. Clearing rogue drones, maybe some form of industry, or maybe helping Eve players gain salvage in special sites, as proposed in a thread that came out before Rattati came along. Sadly, these will likely never happen. But until we have something to do other than kill other players, any bonus that districts give will either be OP or not worth the effort.
Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
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RolyatDerTeufel
NOMAD.
1848
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Posted - 2015.04.05 20:50:00 -
[77] - Quote
Circular logic is best logic, because it is circular?
LIVE on Royal.TV
Transmission Holocron
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DanielCM
TO THE DEATH
14
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:02:00 -
[78] - Quote
More like eve. Don't need to be a no lifer protobear just attack when you want for **** n giggles which is what raids are hinting at |
Luther Mandrix
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
476
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:28:00 -
[79] - Quote
How about Gear level restricted systems and planets. 0.6-0.8 SYSTEM Milita gear System Standard 0.5 System Advanced 0.4 System Advanced 0.3 System Advanced 0.2 and 0.1 Proto 0.0 Above proto
0.6-0.8 Conservation Districts or the Slums where poor Corps can have a more of a chance to hold districts,Gear restricted Systems.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3157
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:43:00 -
[80] - Quote
Work on FW first, that would likely have a bigger playerbase than PC.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
1122
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:45:00 -
[81] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Work on FW first, that would likely have a bigger playerbase than PC. Unless PC is set up so that all corps can participate. That want to at least.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9546
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:48:00 -
[82] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Work on FW first, that would likely have a bigger playerbase than PC. Unless PC is set up so that all corps can participate. That want to at least. But how many corps really want to have a schedule to play Dust?
Amarr are the good guys
Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
1122
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:49:00 -
[83] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Work on FW first, that would likely have a bigger playerbase than PC. Unless PC is set up so that all corps can participate. That want to at least. But how many corps really want to have a schedule to play Dust? IF there is a schedule involved...
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Kevall Longstride
DUST University Ivy League
2707
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:49:00 -
[84] - Quote
OK.
My general disregard for all things PC related is reasonably well documented. D-UNI tried it and by the time I decided to pull us out of it, the egos, histrionics, drama, epeen and exploits damn well near broke me personally and made me dread logging on lest I got dragged into yet another bitchfest of which my caring about was precisely zero. I very nearly quit the game entirely because of it.
PC is played by a minority of the player base, a passionate and vocal minority but minority nevertheless.
Any examination of the mechanics of PC is I feel not going fully service its potential, without addressing the question as to why its not as popular as it should be is kind of silly. Yes potential, I might not be its biggest fan but I know it could be something special if its failings a force multiplier for player participation are addressed and dealt with.
Rattati asked in the OP, 'Please, pass the message forward, and especially if you or your corporation was active in PC, and quit for whatever reason.' (my underlining).
It's vitally important that we use the opportunity that we have now, to find those reasons to quit and see what can be done about them now rather than later.
Was it logistical, time consuming, a failure in UI or explanation? Time pressures, technical problems or just plain odd boring?
Let CCP know.
CPM 1 member
CEO of DUST University
Vist dustcpm.com
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6481
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:49:00 -
[85] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Work on FW first, that would likely have a bigger playerbase than PC. Unless PC is set up so that all corps can participate. That want to at least.
Seems about as logical as introducing American football to Europe by starting out with a pro league. Google NFL Europe to check out how that worked out. |
maluble
Art.of.Death
246
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:51:00 -
[86] - Quote
With alot of the top corp players having 100's of millions and even billions of isk per player i dont see alot of room for improvement. Just like the matchmaking it was let go for to long, this should have been fixed before these players were able to exploit a broken system. At this point in pc bigger corps are giving districts to little corps to then attack and farm them. So unless your gonna take a portion of that isk away any changea will still result in these top corps dominating all others. |
gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
1122
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:55:00 -
[87] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Work on FW first, that would likely have a bigger playerbase than PC. Unless PC is set up so that all corps can participate. That want to at least. Seems about as logical as introducing American football to Europe by starting out with a pro league. Google NFL Europe to check out how that worked out. I don't see an issue opening up various planets where corp rating will affect an attack. It's introducing a new sport, it's opening up more leagues.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6481
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:56:00 -
[88] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:OK.
My general disregard for all things PC related is reasonably well documented. D-UNI tried it and by the time I decided to pull us out of it, the egos, histrionics, drama, epeen and exploits damn well near broke me personally and made me dread logging on lest I got dragged into yet another bitchfest of which my caring about was precisely zero. I very nearly quit the game entirely because of it.
PC is played by a minority of the player base, a passionate and vocal minority but minority nevertheless.
Any examination of the mechanics of PC is I feel not going fully service its potential, without addressing the question as to why its not as popular as it should be. Yes potential, I might not be its biggest fan but I know it could be something special if its failings a force multiplier for player participation are addressed and dealt with.
Rattati asked in the OP, 'Please, pass the message forward, and especially if you or your corporation was active in PC, and quit for whatever reason.' (my underlining).
It's vitally important that we use the opportunity that we have now, to find those reasons to quit and see what can be done about them now rather than later.
Was it logistical, time consuming, a failure in UI or explanation? Time pressures, technical problems or just plain odd boring?
Let CCP know.
I can tell you with a 100% certainty that it simply came down to so few being able to logistical handle dominating the entire PC landscape. People could manage their districts and still ring in various other battles.
People just wanted to play as much PC as they could, but ended up pushing people out of it. Imagine the complaints about pubs, but add in millions invested and lost individually. You think you've got it going on and you are going to take a district and there's a team full of ringers there instead. After a while people figured it was best to give up and join the more successful groups or quit PC altogether.
The key is to make that more difficult. If that isn't addressed them it'll just repeat itself. |
Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9546
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Posted - 2015.04.05 21:58:00 -
[89] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Here's the problem with PC. The only reason to egt into PC... is to do PC. I gain no benefit of PC outside of doing even more PC. As mentioned earlier it becomes "I do raids in order to get better gear to go do more raids." What can PC give me that pubs do not?
Now we could have owning districts give bonuses in Dust, like extra damage, more health, better regen, cheaper item costs, etc. But then we widen the gulf between the haves and the have-nots. The reason sovereignty and wars work (well, somewhat) in Eve is because there is so much more to do in Eve than PVP. There's mining, ratting, industry, missioning, all kinds of activities that aren't about killing other players. So by owning systems in nullsec, I can provide an area to have miners get resources for my industry moguls, who then build ships and modules for me to go gain even more systems. All of the considerations of war, from the fighting to the logitics and supply lines, are player-controlled. Dust has no such variety. We can kill other players in pubs, kill other players in FW, or kill other players in PC. No other options for gameplay exist. No industry, no mining, no PVE content... Only PVP, PVP, PVP. So any bonus we give to districts either is OP, like a damage bonus for owning a district, separating the rich from the poor even more, or you give a bonus to clone packs or other PC logistics, which returns us to the "I raid to get gear to raid with" circle.
What we need, and honestly should have had from the beginning, is non-PVP gameplay in Dust. Clearing rogue drones, maybe some form of industry, or maybe helping Eve players gain salvage in special sites, as proposed in a thread that came out before Rattati came along. Sadly, these will likely never happen. But until we have something to do other than kill other players, any bonus that districts give will either be OP or not worth the effort. This needs to be quoted. A good solution in my opinion would be like you said, add a PVE element for salvage which leads to industry. You could play PVE publicly in high sec for common materials, but for rarer materials you would need to go to null sec owned by pc corps.
Way too resource intensive though.
Amarr are the good guys
Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1620
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Posted - 2015.04.05 22:32:00 -
[90] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Nothing Certain wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:I think it's in a good place right now, but I'm not a CEO.
Looking forward to seeing what PC can change and become. Just so long as we don't see a return to the days of nobody fighting and the big blue donut. There is an exploit that needs to be stamped out. If everyone wants to just hold hands and sing kumbaya, I still don't think I have an answer for that I think there needs to be a ranking of districts. If District A and District B are the same, why fight? Corp. A can keep District A and Corp. B keep B. If District A is better than B though they have a reason to always fight, even if it is just prestige. The other big problem with PC is the same 16 guys can dominate the whole thing, certainly a 100 or so can, and do. The solution is to force players to be stationed on a limited number of districts and only can defend those districts. Corporations should be able to have unlimited districts, but they have to hold each with different players. This would mean that a 200 man corp wouldn't have the same 16 guys playing every PC and new corps could have a chance against the Team B and Team C districts. What is being proposed was too complicated for me to figure out but I didn't see those two problems being addressed and they are the two that kept me from PC. On point 1, no. No one will care about the prestige of anything. We don't now, and we won't later. on point 2, you will never stop people from holding lots of land through artificial player limitation. We will just use alts, and we will hate CCP for making us do that. But we will do it all the same. You'll be pissed off, we'll be pissed off. That's a lose-lose suggestion.
How do you suggest we stop a relative handful of players from controlling PC. That is the problem. No offense, but I don't think FA vets understand that problem.
You can create maybe 5 alts that are PC worthy, I don't see a problem with that. I think having another corp. owning the top district and rubbing your nose in it in the war room will motivate people.
Because, that's why.
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