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Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 294	Posted - 2015.01.29 16:02:00 - [601] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I currently do not see any numbers of the Natural Shield Regen Rate for the Gunnlogi. Do you intend to keep this as is, or change it? This is fairly important because 1. It's currently way too high, and 2. If it is lowered, many pilots will want to be able to boost this back up, and it may be preferential for a slot to be dedicated to a shield recharger or booster. Additionally I'm looking at what you have for bonuses. DHAV seems to imply that is has a +20% Large Turret Bonus, so I'll assume this is +4% a level which is reasonable. However the UHAV Bonus seems to have HP values associated with it but vary between each tier. Could you explain what the per-level bonus for that is supposed to me? The current regen is way to high on Gunnlogis. With the recharge delay Gunlogis have on shields, if it takes any more than one low cost module to bring them to the same levels they are now and Madrugar hardeners get any love, then the instant repair of the armor repairer could get abused with 5 low slots. I'm sure the shield recharge rate of all the hulls would be lowered, but that delay after damage threshold has been broken is not present in armor repairers. Armor hardeners have a much longer duration than shields and the effect of increasing amount of damage repped per second when active. Not much you will be able to do against a plate, 2 hardners, 2 reppers and nitro if the hardener get any love. It's the same as dropsuits, you can at least tank some armor on most of them that have low shield recharge rates ie Cal logi, but once you start removing low slots you become more shield dependant, thus cover and recharge dependant, thus hiding away from battle dependant. There is no comparison when a gallente heavy pushes up on a caldari heavy of equal skill, the Gallente heavy will win with most of thier armor immediately repping after the battle. The nice part about tanks is there is no repping nanohive or repping logi further squewing the battle in armors favor. tl/dr: Recharge delay necessitates a high shield recharge, 4 seconds of zero reps vs 4 seconds of 300+ reps, with hardeners essentially 500 hps instant repaired ( I can't into exact math ). So outside of redline Caldari = run away, Madrugar = keep applying damage every 3 seconds while a Nova Knifer runs over to make a YouTube vid.
H0riz0n Unlimit Dead Man's Game 376	Posted - 2015.01.29 16:11:00 - [602] - Quote Armor hardner has a lower percentage of resistance and quite all AV weapon have bonus against armour so i think shield hardner is bettwr than armour hardner and if you have core vehicles upgrade maxed you recharge modules faster... Vote "Stucazz" for new gallente HAV. "H0riZ0n, spaghetti, pizza , pomodoro" cit.BLACK HEART 555
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4632	Posted - 2015.01.29 16:11:00 - [603] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: all i know, is that I want to drive both uhavs and havs. i can imagine the rush of speeding around, almost lav speed, and just blasting tanks, in and out. I think it could be a great way to break out of a camp, keep moving and pick your targets wisely. Isn't this also about making tank combat a little more fun? I agree, I think people are underestimating the power that speed offers an HAV. Slap an Overdrive and Tracking Enhancer on, get up close, and take out the UHAV from close range, moving faster than it can track. You can already do this to some effect with a Blaster fighting a rail up close, and it's awesome. It's kind of like playing as a scout back when Heavies had reduced turn speed. You had crap for health but you could literally dance circles around the heavy and he wouldn't be able to touch you. As for the base stats on the DHAV...it has the reduced slots as well as the reduced base HP. I agree with either of these...but not sure if I agree with having them both at the same time, it might be a little too extreme, but time will tell. Stick with both, but I'd remain open to the idea of bumping the base HP up again if the DHAV's defense proove to be a little TOO weak. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6839	Posted - 2015.01.29 16:15:00 - [604] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: all i know, is that I want to drive both uhavs and havs. i can imagine the rush of speeding around, almost lav speed, and just blasting tanks, in and out. I think it could be a great way to break out of a camp, keep moving and pick your targets wisely. Isn't this also about making tank combat a little more fun? I agree, I think people are underestimating the power that speed offers an HAV. Slap an Overdrive and Tracking Enhancer on, get up close, and take out the UHAV from close range, moving faster than it can track. You can already do this to some effect with a Blaster fighting a rail up close, and it's awesome. It's kind of like playing as a scout back when Heavies had reduced turn speed. You had crap for health but you could literally dance circles around the heavy and he wouldn't be able to touch you. As for the base stats on the DHAV...it has the reduced slots as well as the reduced base HP. I agree with either of these...but not sure if I agree with having them both at the same time, it might be a little too extreme, but time will tell. Stick with both, but I'd remain open to the idea of bumping the base HP up again if the DHAV's defense proove to be a little TOO weak. If the DHAVs are well done I'd skill this character into HAVs JUST for DHAVS. I love doing lots of damage then dying in glorious fire AV
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4632	Posted - 2015.01.29 16:33:00 - [605] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: With the recharge delay Gunlogis have on shields, if it takes any more than one low cost module to bring them to the same levels they are now and Madrugar hardeners get any love, then the instant repair of the armor repairer could get abused with 5 low slots. I'm sure the shield recharge rate of all the hulls would be lowered, but that delay after damage threshold has been broken is not present in armor repairers. Armor hardeners have a much longer duration than shields and the effect of increasing amount of damage repped per second when active. Not much you will be able to do against a plate, 2 hardners, 2 reppers and nitro if the hardener get any love. It's the same as dropsuits, you can at least tank some armor on most of them that have low shield recharge rates ie Cal logi, but once you start removing low slots you become more shield dependant, thus cover and recharge dependant, thus hiding away from battle dependant. There is no comparison when a gallente heavy pushes up on a caldari heavy of equal skill, the Gallente heavy will win with most of thier armor immediately repping after the battle. The nice part about tanks is there is no repping nanohive or repping logi further squewing the battle in armors favor. tl/dr: Recharge delay necessitates a high shield recharge, 4 seconds of zero reps vs 4 seconds of 300+ reps, with hardeners essentially 500 hps instant repaired ( I can't into exact math ). So outside of redline Caldari = run away, Madrugar = keep applying damage every 3 seconds while a Nova Knifer runs over to make a YouTube vid. First of all, 4 seconds is not that long, and Regulators are being added which will drop that lower. Secondly, while I think passive armor reps should remain, they should be less effective. Active Armor Reps which run on a Duration/Cooldown need to be reintroduce and have a similar HP/s to existing passives when spread out over their duration and cooldown. Given the speed of vehicles, the duration of the shield hardener is sufficient for nearly any situation and will allow the HAV to kill the AVer, tank, or simply escape. Shield Hardeners are also a significnatly higher % resistance, meaning much of its eHP is tied to resists, not HP like the Madrugar. Because of this, the Gunnlogi takes less damage per damage applied, meaning that it has less HP to recover. This means that the effective Recharge Rate is significantly higher than the base 169HP/s. As an example: Tank A has 200 HP and no resists Tank B has 100 HP and 50% resists They both have 200eHP, and repair at 10HP/s If we apply 100 damage to each tank Tank A loses 100 HP Tank B resists the damage and loses 50 HP It will take tank A 10 seconds to fully recover It will take Tank B 5 seconds to fully recover Same eHP, same HP/s recovery rate, but Tank B recovers all of its HP faster than A. As you can see, when it comes to HP recovery, Damage Resistance >> HP. So in the case of a Gunnlogi, a 40% hardener pushes the effective recharge rate from 169 HP/s to 237 eHP/s, and can fit two hardeners at the same time which pushes it even higher depending on usage. The Madrugar with its one 25% rep goes from 137HP/s to 172 eHP/s and currently can only fit a single hardener on typical fits. Also you're making a very poorly designed argument. "Recharge delay necessitates a high shield recharge, 4 seconds of zero reps vs 4 seconds of 300+ reps, with hardeners essentially 500 hps instant repaired ( I can't into exact math )." If the Madrugar has 300+ HP/s that means it has dedicated all 3 of its slots to armor repairers. Not only is this a FailFit, but you're comparing it to the Gunnlogi that is using 0 modules to bolster its regen. You're saying an HAV that dedicates 3 slots to regen....regens better than an HAV that dedicates no slots to regen....well of course its going to be better! That's like saying it's wrong that a Minmatar Sentinel that stacks HP mods have more HP than an Amarr Sentinel that doesnt have any. If you factor in a Shield Booster vs a single Complex Armor Rep, the Gunnlogi can negate the shield recharge delay if it wants with the booster, instantly giving it 1950 HP and starting the recharge of 169HP/s. This means in the first 5 seconds the Gunnlogi Recovers ~1950+5(169) = 2795HP, the Madrugar would recover 845. Pretty massive difference, exchanging high regen for constant and reliable reps. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 294	Posted - 2015.01.29 16:34:00 - [606] - Quote H0riz0n Unlimit wrote: Armor hardner has a lower percentage of resistance and quite all AV weapon have bonus against armour so i think shield hardner is bettwr than armour hardner and if you have core vehicles upgrade maxed you recharge modules faster... There was talk of improving armor hardener, which I think makes sense, right now its only advantage is duration, but nerfing shield regen at the same time could squew tank battles.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4632	Posted - 2015.01.29 17:02:00 - [607] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: H0riz0n Unlimit wrote: Armor hardner has a lower percentage of resistance and quite all AV weapon have bonus against armour so i think shield hardner is bettwr than armour hardner and if you have core vehicles upgrade maxed you recharge modules faster... There was talk of improving armor hardener, which I think makes sense, right now its only advantage is duration, but nerfing shield regen at the same time could squew tank battles. From an EVE perspective... Armor Hardener 55% Reduction 30GJ Activation 20s Duration Shield Hardener 55% Reduction 20GJ Activation 10s Duration For a Dust context, I don't see why we couldn't go with a model where they both have the same resists, the armor longer with a longer cooldown and the shield last shorter with a shorter cooldown. The massive difference in % resistance causes serious balancing issues between armor and shields. Id rather see any difference be in the duration and cooldown, not in the resistance itself. I could see perhaps a small difference in resists (~5%) but overall they need to be closer to one another. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 294	Posted - 2015.01.29 17:37:00 - [608] - Quote I can see armor at 30% and shield at 40% , it's that shield delay combined with nearly half the duration and the possibility of armor repping more hp/sec immediately after taking damage, also the armor tank has a shield buffer which is more useful than the shield tanks armor.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4632	Posted - 2015.01.29 17:44:00 - [609] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: I can see armor at 30% and shield at 40% , it's that shield delay combined with nearly half the duration and the possibility of armor repping more hp/sec immediately after taking damage, also the armor tank has a shield buffer which is more useful than the shield tanks armor. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing I will agree however that shield regen on the Madrugar is too damn high. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 294	Posted - 2015.01.29 18:11:00 - [610] - Quote [qknow the new hulls have different =Pokey Dravon] Doc DDD wrote: I can see armor at 30% and shield at 40% , it's delay combined with nearly half tGunlogisration and the possibility of armor repping more hp/sec immediately after taking damage, also the armor tank has a shield buffer which is more useful than the shield tanks armor. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KPXFzLUtbfpCLyCjAoDnoML7L8Nh7VZXMF1Bdhqajdo/edit?usp=sharing I will agree however that shield regen on the Madrugar is too damn high.[/quote] I understand the point you are trying to make with the spreadsheet however; You are comparing the time it takes to rep 4000 armor to 2650 shield, and it takes 10 more seconds to rep 1350 extra hp? If you add another armor repper you are repping 50% more hp faster than shields commencing immediately after taking damage, plus getting your shields repped with no modules, plus the gunlogi has no armor repairing ability unless it has some wierd fit. I know the new hulls have different armor/shield numbers, try redoing the chart with the new base numbers, and most importantly look at what tank has a higher percentage of it's original hp back if they are at 0/0 shield armor and start Regen it over the next 6 seconds...

Harpyja Legio DXIV 2297	Posted - 2015.01.29 18:14:00 - [611] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Doc DDD wrote: H0riz0n Unlimit wrote: Armor hardner has a lower percentage of resistance and quite all AV weapon have bonus against armour so i think shield hardner is bettwr than armour hardner and if you have core vehicles upgrade maxed you recharge modules faster... There was talk of improving armor hardener, which I think makes sense, right now its only advantage is duration, but nerfing shield regen at the same time could squew tank battles. From an EVE perspective... Armor Hardener 55% Reduction 30GJ Activation 20s Duration Shield Hardener 55% Reduction 20GJ Activation 10s Duration For a Dust context, I don't see why we couldn't go with a model where they both have the same resists, the armor longer with a longer cooldown and the shield last shorter with a shorter cooldown. The massive difference in % resistance causes serious balancing issues between armor and shields. Id rather see any difference be in the duration and cooldown, not in the resistance itself. I could see perhaps a small difference in resists (~5%) but overall they need to be closer to one another. Keep in mind that EVE does things differently to balance shield vs armor. As far as I remember, Caldari ships frequently ran extenders one size above their ship class, and that shield regen is always passively recharging at a variable rate, which is also increased through extenders and not just modules designed to lower the recharge time, "By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4632	Posted - 2015.01.29 18:22:00 - [612] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: I understand the point you are trying to make with the spreadsheet however; You are comparing the time it takes to rep 4000 armor to 2650 shield, and it takes 10 more seconds to rep 1350 extra hp? If you add another armor repper you are repping 50% more hp faster than shields commencing immediately after taking damage, plus getting your shields repped with no modules, plus the gunlogi has no armor repairing ability unless it has some wierd fit. I know the new hulls have different armor/shield numbers, try redoing the chart with the new base numbers, and most importantly look at what tank has a higher percentage of it's original hp back if they are at 0/0 shield armor and start Regen it over the next 6 seconds... No my point is that even though the raw HP is different, the eHP of those two fits is very similar, meaning that the Gunnlogi recovers eHP far faster than the Madrugar, while having an equal (and sometimes superior) eHP. And you can argue that you can fit 2 reppers, but that is typically an non-viable fit and would drop the eHP of the Madrugar even more sharply. And keep in mind that the Madrugar still has to fit multiple modules just so it can beat the regen of the Gunnlogi using 0 regen modules. That's my main gripe. (Under the old model) if the Gunnlogi had to fit 1 proto module to get the 169 HP/s, I would be FAR more comfortable with it. As for the new model, I can do that, but looking at the first few seconds after depletion isn't a really clear picture since that is specifically the weakest part of the shield regen. Regardless I think passive shield recharge and passive armor reps need to nerfed into the ground and bring back proper active modules. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 932	Posted - 2015.01.29 18:47:00 - [613] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I am not following the "damage mods" discussion, we already have damage amps in high, I am not changing any of that. But I do want them to be active. The basic question is this, what is the incentive to fitting X new module over an additional damage mod or additional modules that increase my eHP? It's a question of whether or not the additional properties are going to be worth sacrificing those aspects for. You mentioned active dispersion decreasing modules in the other thread, which is something that I hadn't seen mentioned yet. This is great! This is the type of module that adds a very real and tangible benefit to Large Blaster tanks assuming it gave them limited infantry slaying ability during activation. Im only questioning the overall usefulness of the other proposed active modules. A lot of this is hinged on the insane fitting power of the Gunnlogi at the moment. The thing can fit everything without the need for any sort of PG or CPU upgrade. I would honestly support bringing it down to the level of the Maddy (basically bottlenecking its PG in the same way that the Maddy is CPU bottlenecked) so they could stop being omni-tanked monstrosities. The reason, I imagine, that their PG is as high as it is because of the high fitting cost of Heavy Shield Boosters. But given that Shield Boosters can be interrupted half way through the boosting process its much more reliable to stick a heavy plate/hardener in the lows instead. Secondary questions include, whats the proposed slot layout for these modules? At the moment there's a distinct lack of utility based low slot modules that allow a tank to be able to comfortably stack shields while gaining some secondary battlefield utility. My suggestion would be : Active Dispersion Module - High Slot, on the basis that Maddys are Gallente and Gallente are Blasters. You don't want people comfortably stacking damage mods and the infantry slaying dispersion module as well. Active Heat Sink - Low Slot, so the Gunnlogi can focus on its shields while gaining the benefit of better Rails. Yep, I have raised the low slot issue in this thread and unfair fitting between ca and ga, and both heat sinks and disp modules work for rails and missiles, blaster can use both. There was a whole page of pure dmg mods that i just didnt get I was suggesting that each active module get a passive variant. Active versions in high slots, passive in low slots. Every turret related module should do this, just like it did before. This way, Gal and Cal HAV's aren't imblalanced in terms of utility, as both have their own versions of the same module to use. OK May I refer the discussion on active/passive variants of currently existing modules to this thread? Thanks.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 294	Posted - 2015.01.29 18:49:00 - [614] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Doc DDD wrote: I understand the point you are trying to make with the spreadsheet however; You are comparing the time it takes to rep 4000 armor to 2650 shield, and it takes 10 more seconds to rep 1350 extra hp? If you add another armor repper you are repping 50% more hp faster than shields commencing immediately after taking damage, plus getting your shields repped with no modules, plus the gunlogi has no armor repairing ability unless it has some wierd fit. I know the new hulls have different armor/shield numbers, try redoing the chart with the new base numbers, and most importantly look at what tank has a higher percentage of it's original hp back if they are at 0/0 shield armor and start Regen it over the next 6 seconds... No my point is that even though the raw HP is different, the eHP of those two fits is very similar, meaning that the Gunnlogi recovers eHP far faster than the Madrugar, while having an equal (and sometimes superior) eHP. And you can argue that you can fit 2 reppers, but that is typically an non-viable fit and would drop the eHP of the Madrugar even more sharply. And keep in mind that the Madrugar still has to fit multiple modules just so it can beat the regen of the Gunnlogi using 0 regen modules. That's my main gripe. (Under the old model) if the Gunnlogi had to fit 1 proto module to get the 169 HP/s, I would be FAR more comfortable with it. As for the new model, I can do that, but looking at the first few seconds after depletion isn't a really clear picture since that is specifically the weakest part of the shield regen. Regardless I think passive shield recharge and passive armor reps need to nerfed into the ground and bring back proper active modules. I can't agree with much of that sorry, yes the gunlogi reps with no module. I agree. but the gunlogi can never get more reps the gunlogi has to wait 4 seconds to start getting reps and as per your spread sheet the one repping module on the Madrugar out reps all damage done to a similarly damaged gunlogi. While the base 'tank' of the Madrugar is also higher.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4633	Posted - 2015.01.29 18:55:00 - [615] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: I can't agree with much of that sorry, yes the gunlogi reps with no module. I agree. but the gunlogi can never get more reps the gunlogi has to wait 4 seconds to start getting reps and as per your spread sheet the one repping module on the Madrugar out reps all damage done to a similarly damaged gunlogi. While the base 'tank' of the Madrugar is also higher. I'm saying the strength of the passive reps is too strong. I'd love to add modules to increase the passive rep so that 1 module vs 1 module, the Gunnlogi would still rep faster than the Madrugar, instead of the 0 to 1 we have now. This would also allow the Gunnlogi to get more passive reps if it wanted. Do you think its unfair to require the Gunnlogi to use 1 passive module to beat the Madrugar's 1 passive module? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 294	Posted - 2015.01.29 19:42:00 - [616] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Doc DDD wrote: I can't agree with much of that sorry, yes the gunlogi reps with no module. I agree. but the gunlogi can never get more reps the gunlogi has to wait 4 seconds to start getting reps and as per your spread sheet the one repping module on the Madrugar out reps all damage done to a similarly damaged gunlogi. While the base 'tank' of the Madrugar is also higher. I'm saying the strength of the passive reps is too strong. I'd love to add modules to increase the passive rep so that 1 module vs 1 module, the Gunnlogi would still rep faster than the Madrugar, instead of the 0 to 1 we have now. This would also allow the Gunnlogi to get more passive reps if it wanted. Do you think its unfair to require the Gunnlogi to use 1 passive module to beat the Madrugar's 1 passive module? Then we would need to look at - adding a 4 second delay to armor reps, - reduce starting armor level to the same as the starting level of the shield tanks - penalizing armor repair delays for every plate added. - remove any passive reps on the shields of armor tanks. This would make everything 'fair' , which seems to be your arguement. I don't want to homogenize armor and shield, they are both different and have different positives and negatives. 5 low slots is going to be huge for armor tanks, if they are repping faster than shields then I feel we have gone wrong somewhere. Your chart shows that even now, one armor repairer madrugar outreps a gunlogi and the madrugar has more hp. I wouldn't push for any of the above points as I wouldn't push for lower shield reps on the gunlogi. But if rattati sees something we don't then who am I to argue, as long as it makes sense.
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 157	Posted - 2015.01.29 19:54:00 - [617] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: duster 35000 wrote: The-Errorist wrote: ... I want that to change and here's what I'd like it to be (from my thread/spreadsheet): (LAV and dropship stats in thread/spreadsheet) [HAVs]: Caldari: 110 HP/s Minmatar: 88 HP/s Amarr/Gallente: 66 HP/s I also want vehicles to have natural passive reps: [HAVs] Gallente: 25 HP/s Armarr & Minmatar: 22.5 HP/s Caldari: HAV: 20 HP/s If CCP does this, adds regulators, and rechargers, vehicle regen would be in a much more balanced state. 110 hp/s is like a armor rep, along with armor repping shields at 66 hp/s... I don't know what your point is and what you mean by armor repping shields, so I'll try my best to reply to what you said. Yes 110 HP/s shield recharge rate is like a complex heavy armor rep and 66 HP/s shield recharge rate is in-between an advanced and complex light rep. I also said I want vehicles to have base armor repair and with that, vehicles with an armor rep can rep faster than base shield recharge. Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Yep, I have raised the low slot issue in this thread and unfair fitting between ca and ga, and both heat sinks and disp modules work for rails and missiles, blaster can use both. There was a whole page of pure dmg mods that i just didnt get Perhaps I'm confused, but currently missiles pretty much hit where you aim. Are you adding in missile dispersion so they can make use of the dispersion reduction modules? Right now, the faster you fire the large missile turret, the more dispersion it gains. Why does armor get to rep faster than shield? assuming no passive shield regen mod. Choo Choo
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4637	Posted - 2015.01.29 19:58:00 - [618] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Stuff I'll take that as along winded "Gunnlogi should not have to fit any modules or train any skills to outrep a Madrugar using a maxed out proto module with max skills". Ok, thanks for your feedback. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 157	Posted - 2015.01.29 19:59:00 - [619] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any thoughts on the preliminary Hull numbers? Besides the feedback I gave on armor repair and shield recharge rates, I have these: It's not fair how Gallente tanks have more of their main tank to use than the Caldari, make it balanced like it is for Cal & Gal dropsuits. Caldari tanks have 36% (1,500) of their total HP (4,150) as armor and only 64% (2,650) as shields; I would like it to be the reverse ratio compared to Gallente tanks: ~23% (958) armor and ~77% (3192) shields. I still would like tanks to have 6 total slots instead of the current 5; 4/2 for Cal, 2/4 for Gal/AM, and 3/3 for Min. Lastly, the total HP, speed, PG/CPU, and other hull stats look fine. duster 35000 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I currently do not see any numbers of the Natural Shield Regen Rate for the Gunnlogi. Do you intend to keep this as is, or change it? This is fairly important because 1. It's currently way too high, and 2. If it is lowered, many pilots will want to be able to boost this back up, and it may be preferential for a slot to be dedicated to a shield recharger or booster. Additionally I'm looking at what you have for bonuses. DHAV seems to imply that is has a +20% Large Turret Bonus, so I'll assume this is +4% a level which is reasonable. However the UHAV Bonus seems to have HP values associated with it but vary between each tier. Could you explain what the per-level bonus for that is supposed to me? The current regen is way to high on Gunnlogis. How, exactly? It has a 4 second recharge delay... He meant shield recharge rates not the delay. 137 reps for armor, 168 for shields. armor has no delay. shields do. Choo Choo
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 294	Posted - 2015.01.29 20:24:00 - [620] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Doc DDD wrote: Stuff I'll take that as along winded "Gunnlogi should not have to fit any modules or train any skills to outrep a Madrugar using a maxed out proto module with max skills". Ok, thanks for your feedback. If you don't want to respond to any of my points that's fine, I took the time to respond to yours. And as per your spread sheet a maxed out madrugar with maxed out skills and a module outreps a gunlogi with no skills. You seem fixated on 'repped to full shields vs repped to full armor' when the total values of what's being repped are not even close to the same. I understand if this is confusing for you, how 4000 is a larger number than 2685, and how waiting 4 seconds before reps start is a penalty for having innate reps. But we are here to help you understand. If I can add 2 shield regulars in a shield tanks low slots to have zero wait for my shields to start repping at 275 points a second while repping my armor for 50 hps, then sure, that would be fair to reduce innate reps, but that would be rediculous. Funny thing is 2 modules will get a Madrugar's reps to 275 points immediately while it's shields rep without a module, AND YOU CAN ADD MORE REPAIR MODULES. So you are right, I don't think shields need a reduction to regeneration rate without using a module. We agree.

The-Errorist 982	Posted - 2015.01.29 20:31:00 - [621] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: H0riz0n Unlimit wrote: Armor hardner has a lower percentage of resistance and quite all AV weapon have bonus against armour so i think shield hardner is bettwr than armour hardner and if you have core vehicles upgrade maxed you recharge modules faster... There was talk of improving armor hardener, which I think makes sense, right now its only advantage is duration, but nerfing shield regen at the same time could squew tank battles. Doing any big change to vehicles will skew tank battles. Doc DDD wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Doc DDD wrote: I can't agree with much of that sorry, yes the gunlogi reps with no module. I agree. but the gunlogi can never get more reps the gunlogi has to wait 4 seconds to start getting reps and as per your spread sheet the one repping module on the Madrugar out reps all damage done to a similarly damaged gunlogi. While the base 'tank' of the Madrugar is also higher. I'm saying the strength of the passive reps is too strong. I'd love to add modules to increase the passive rep so that 1 module vs 1 module, the Gunnlogi would still rep faster than the Madrugar, instead of the 0 to 1 we have now. This would also allow the Gunnlogi to get more passive reps if it wanted. Do you think its unfair to require the Gunnlogi to use 1 passive module to beat the Madrugar's 1 passive module? Then we would need to look at - adding a 4 second delay to armor reps, - reduce starting armor level to the same as the starting level of the shield tanks - penalizing armor repair delays for every plate added. - remove any passive reps on the shields of armor tanks. This would make everything 'fair' , which seems to be your arguement. I don't want to homogenize armor and shield, they are both different and have different positives and negatives. 5 low slots is going to be huge for armor tanks, if they are repping faster than shields then I feel we have gone wrong somewhere. Your chart shows that even now, one armor repairer madrugar outreps a gunlogi and the madrugar has more hp. I wouldn't push for any of the above points as I wouldn't push for lower shield reps on the gunlogi. But if rattati sees something we don't then who am I to argue, as long as it makes sense. His chart does not show that on his chart, the max rep rate using an armor rep is 137.5 HP/s, the shield recharge rate for Gunnlogi is 168 HP/s. Also the bluegreen cells are the point where it would finish regenerating base HP and the sand colored cells are when it regened a typical HP fit. The Gunnlogi wins both (the 2nd by a longshot). Also his argument is about making things fair under normal shield/armor constraints and what you're suggesting wouldn't. What he, and many others feel is the most fair model for how things should work: Natural Shield Regen < Fitted Armor Armor Repair < Fitted Shield Regen. If we can't get to that point, I'm willing to compromise by reducing shield recharge rates by at least 18 HP/s, but still leaving them stronger than 1 complex heavy rep with max skills. Then rebalanced shield recharge rates on other race's tanks. One thing is clear though, base shield recharge on shield tanks is too high. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill AKA Enkouyami (Main PSN).
The-Errorist 982	Posted - 2015.01.29 20:37:00 - [622] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: ... With the recharge delay Gunlogis have on shields, if it takes any more than one low cost module to bring them to the same levels they are now and Madrugar hardeners get any love, then the instant repair of the armor repairer could get abused with 5 low slots. .... Madrugars wont get 5 low slots, 5 is the total high+low slots tanks have. Based on what's on the spreadsheet, they will probably get 1 high and 4 lows. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill AKA Enkouyami (Main PSN).
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 294	Posted - 2015.01.29 20:48:00 - [623] - Quote I think you might need some help reading spreadsheets. Apart from one second, the madrugar outreps the gunlogi total hps for every second, with a basic rep. Yes 4000 takes longer to rep than 2685, not a surprise. AS PER HIS OWN SPREADSHEET. I'm pretty sure rattati said the gunlogi would be 5 high 2 low, madrugar 2 high 5 low. As per his spreadsheet.
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1620	Posted - 2015.01.29 21:04:00 - [624] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: all i know, is that I want to drive both uhavs and havs. i can imagine the rush of speeding around, almost lav speed, and just blasting tanks, in and out. I think it could be a great way to break out of a camp, keep moving and pick your targets wisely. Isn't this also about making tank combat a little more fun? So what are the disadvantages of the UHAV, do they track slower? Turn slower? Accelerate slower? Have a lower top speed? Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 828	Posted - 2015.01.29 21:09:00 - [625] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: all i know, is that I want to drive both uhavs and havs. i can imagine the rush of speeding around, almost lav speed, and just blasting tanks, in and out. I think it could be a great way to break out of a camp, keep moving and pick your targets wisely. Isn't this also about making tank combat a little more fun? sure. but we also want tanks to matter. tanks have no role. logi lavs and dropships had a role to heal infantry and tanks. lavs are basically taxis. ADS is close ground support. but tanks? what is there currently that everyone can point to and say..."we need a tank for this?" tanks used to be used to gain an advantage by killing RDVs but now they disappear before we can kill them most of the time. please, let this be only the beginning of the work for vehicles and not a one shot fix. We need a reason for calling in tanks in the first place.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 294	Posted - 2015.01.29 21:09:00 - [626] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: all i know, is that I want to drive both uhavs and havs. i can imagine the rush of speeding around, almost lav speed, and just blasting tanks, in and out. I think it could be a great way to break out of a camp, keep moving and pick your targets wisely. Isn't this also about making tank combat a little more fun? So what are the disadvantages of the UHAV, do they track slower? Turn slower? Accelerate slower? Have a lower top speed? Slower, No damage bonus to large turret Probably more is Less slots 2 small turrets
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4639	Posted - 2015.01.29 21:39:00 - [627] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: If you don't want to respond to any of my points that's fine, I took the time to respond to yours. And as per your spread sheet a maxed out madrugar with maxed out skills and a module outreps a gunlogi with no skills. You seem fixated on 'repped to full shields vs repped to full armor' when the total values of what's being repped are not even close to the same. I understand if this is confusing for you, how 4000 is a larger number than 2685, and how waiting 4 seconds before reps start is a penalty for having innate reps. But we are here to help you understand. Oh dear, no need to be rude. The point you're failing to recognize is that while the RAW HP of the Gunnlogi is indeed lower than the Madrugar, the fact that the Gunnlogi has 40% resists (15% more than the Madrugar) paired with the fact that they can fit 2 hardeners, means that even with the lower raw HP, their average total eHP is very similar to that of the Madrugar. If you had clicked the link in the chart, you can see the math I used to reach that conclusion. So if the max eHP is similar, what we're really looking at is "How much time does it take to recover 100% of their raw HP first?" because at 100% raw HP, eHP has been completely recovered, right? So if the Gunnlogi regenerates to its full HP faster than the Madrugar, that means it reaches the peak of its eHP faster, yes? So I'm not looking at the raw regen values, and I'm looking at the raw HP values. What I'm looking at is "How much time does it take for the vehicle recover all of its eHP?" That being said, the Gunnlogi does this significantly faster than the Madrugar. I'm sorry if my explanation was not sufficient. As for fitting more repair modules, you have to understand than on a 3 main rack system, 2 reppers is almost always a very bad idea. It means you're typically giving up additional buffer, which given Armor's terrible Hardeners and the fact that it suffers from a severe lack of CPU, your fit is greatly hindered by 2 or 3 repairers. But regardless, that's changing so it doesn't really matter. What DOES matter is that you should totally get modules which boost passive shield recharge, so you can increase the rate further if you want. I know I've posted this before but I'll repeat it again, in order from Slowest Reps to Fastest Reps (assuming equal tiers): Natural Armor Repair (None) Natural Shield Recharge (Constant, with delay) Passive Armor Repair Module (Constant) Passive Shield Recharger Module (constant, with delay) Active Armor Repair Module (Moderate Reps, High duration) Active Shield Booster Module (High Reps, Moderate duration) Active Ancillary Shield Booster (Very High Reps, short duration) Bear in mind that both the passive shield recharge and the passive armor repair modules, would see a significant drop in HP/s. Active modules would tend to have the same average HP/s rate as current reps, but 'crammed together' into a duration and then no reps during cooldown. So for example an armor repairer may have 1 second of uptime for every 3 seconds of downtime, so it would rep at (4137.5)=548/s for 10 seconds, and then cooldown for 30. And yes the tradeoff for the shield recharge delay is the fact that you don't have to fit a module to do maintenance on your primary tank, whereas armor has to. "That little s*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 211	Posted - 2015.01.29 22:04:00 - [628] - Quote Yo Doc.... I would listen to Pokey if I were you. He's usually right and this is no exception. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Up and coming Python pilot. The awnser is always XT missiles....
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4640	Posted - 2015.01.29 22:11:00 - [629] - Quote I don't mean to be argumentative, and I welcome you to point out if my math is wrong. But I think you're missing the point of my chart. If my analysis is wrong I'd be glad to discuss it, but by what you're saying I think you're misunderstanding a key point to my analysis. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2753	Posted - 2015.01.29 22:13:00 - [630] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Doc DDD wrote: If you don't want to respond to any of my points that's fine, I took the time to respond to yours. And as per your spread sheet a maxed out madrugar with maxed out skills and a module outreps a gunlogi with no skills. You seem fixated on 'repped to full shields vs repped to full armor' when the total values of what's being repped are not even close to the same. I understand if this is confusing for you, how 4000 is a larger number than 2685, and how waiting 4 seconds before reps start is a penalty for having innate reps. But we are here to help you understand. Nice comeback using logic. Basically this. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-



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