Redline rails don't do much anymore short of defend their redline from red vehicles, I'm not going to get in a pi@@ing contest to see who plays more as I am interested in bettering vehicles as a whole rather than hurl insults.

10% more damage to missiles will put them around 7100 damage per clip, now add a damage mod and you are around 8500, another brings it near 10000 damage when you hold down one button, which is emptied in about a second. No difference if one of these sits in the redline to a rail tank sitting in the redline doing under 2000 damage per shot.

Now you are telling me that you are worried about 200 more damage coming out of a rail then you are 10000 damage from a Missile tank, or are you hoping no one is going to figure out the math so you can laugh at rails trying to hit your triple damage modded Missile tank cowering in the redline.

This is the problem with opening the forums up for discussion with every type of player, more often than not 6 or 7 will try and push their agenda thru and Rattati has to sift thru all the garbage and try and figure out who is lying to him.

Large Rail Turrets should receive the bonus to deal with the new turrets having their own bonus. If it ends up being a problem it could always be removed. But let's be realistic, 10000 damage from just holding a button down and you are concerned with 200.

Just to clarify for you the stats between Missiles vs Rails:

Missiles are explosive, -20/+20 (i kow it says projectile in protofits, but rattati changed them to explosive dmg profile)
Rails are hybrid, -10/+10

- Pro Missiles XT-201 539.5 damage per missile x 12 shots per clip = 6,474.5 base 5179.2 vs shield 7769.4 vs armor

- Proto Rail 1885 damage per shot x 9 shots = 16,965 damage base 15,268 vs shield 18,661.5 vs armor

But I know Rails over heat in 5 shots so in five shots = 9,425 damage base 8506.8 vs shields 10,367 vs armor

You are already putting out in 5 shots with a rail turret 1,656 base damage MORE than an entire XT201 Missile launcher Clip can do vs Armor.


Without sacrificing any HP for damage mods, in 5 shots you can already out-DPS in your own proposed glass cannon Missle Tank.

But you are not happy with this , so you want rail tanks to do in 5 shots +10%

10,367 damage base, 9425 damage vs shield, 11,404 damage vs armor without damage mods.

because missile tanks may do per clip +10%

7121 damage base 5697 vs shields 8545 damage vs armor

and you think this is balance. Because of you're mythical triple damage modded "redline missile tank" with 150m optimal, damage dropoff, missile travle time, inaacuracy, and the need to land every single round to get damage even comparable to a rail tank which has 300m range, no damage drop off, pinpoint accuaracy, no travel time, and can put out enough damage to kill any vehicle without overheating.

" This is the problem with opening the forums up for discussion with every type of player, more often than not 6 or 7 will try and push their agenda thru and Rattati has to sift thru all the garbage and try and figure out who is lying to him."

Yep, and i'm looking right at you.

Just to clarify for you the stats between Missiles vs Rails:

Missiles are explosive, -20/+20 (i kow it says projectile in protofits, but rattati changed them to explosive dmg profile)
Rails are hybrid, -10/+10

- Pro Missiles XT-201 539.5 damage per missile x 12 shots per clip = 6,474.5 base 5179.2 vs shield 7769.4 vs armor

- Proto Rail 1885 damage per shot x 9 shots = 16,965 damage base 15,268 vs shield 18,661.5 vs armor

But I know Rails over heat in 5 shots so in five shots = 9,425 damage base 8506.8 vs shields 10,367 vs armor

You are already putting out in 5 shots with a rail turret 1,656 base damage MORE than an entire XT201 Missile launcher Clip can do vs Armor.


Without sacrificing any HP for damage mods, in 5 shots you can already out-DPS in your own proposed glass cannon Missle Tank.

But you are not happy with this , so you want rail tanks to do in 5 shots +10%

10,367 damage base, 9425 damage vs shield, 11,404 damage vs armor without damage mods.

because missile tanks may do per clip +10%

7121 damage base 5697 vs shields 8545 damage vs armor

and you think this is balance. Because of you're mythical triple damage modded "redline missile tank" with 150m optimal, damage dropoff, missile travle time, inaacuracy, and the need to land every single round to get damage even comparable to a rail tank which has 300m range, no damage drop off, pinpoint accuaracy, no travel time, and can put out enough damage to kill any vehicle without overheating.

" This is the problem with opening the forums up for discussion with every type of player, more often than not 6 or 7 will try and push their agenda thru and Rattati has to sift thru all the garbage and try and figure out who is lying to him."

Yep, and i'm looking right at you.

I'm not getting into a debate with someone that thinks rails get 5 shots off before overheating.

I'm not getting into a debate with someone that thinks a rail can shoot 5 shots in the time it takes 12 missiles to fire.

In the time it takes a rail turret to shoot 9 shots the missile tank can empty it's clip twice.

Keep trying to pull for the next iteration of Dust 514 to be triple damage modded missle tanks driving around.

The rail turret needs the 10% bonus to keep up with the bonus received by the blaster and missiles.

You aren't really answering why 5 Rail rounds that do 2,951 more base damage than a full clip of Missiles, 3,327 more shield damage than missiles, and 2,597 more armor damage than missiles needs a 10% damage buff.


You also haven't been paying attention, i have been asking for armor tank hardeners to be buffed as a defense against getting instapopped by missiles.

You should try to show why rails need to put out even more damage to "keep up" with other turrets it already surpasses. Rails don't need anymore love. You wanted to compare it to the damage missiles do, here you go.

Now that you know for a fact that rails do far more damage than missiles do, are you ready to accept that Rails are in a great place right now and don't need a buff?

Posted in the Barbershop. I am fairly certain we can get numbers for you.

@ Godin

I think you are overly concerned with the side arms and weapons they are talking about adding. No one complains that NKs being able to do 50% damage has been a problem for tanks, and I certainly thought it would when it was announced.

I also don't think anyone is suggesting a single merc should be able to unload his ScP ammo at a tank and take it down.

If a Solo HAV pulls up to a defended objective that has no supply depot, it seems reasonable to me that 5 or 6 mercs should be able to scare it off. If the fool decides to just sit there for 20 or 30 seconds and try and take them all down, then he should deserve to be heavily damaged or blown up.

In that example, a Solo HAV should see he is outnumbered, and provided he has no squad support to attack the defenders while they aren't paying attention, should be forced to flee.

If the HAV had multiple manned turrets and a decent pilot, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to fight off the defenders before significant damage is done to the HAV.

Dropships and LAVs shouldn't even need to worry given the limited range and utility of the weapons Rattati is talking about adding.

Its not like it is being said that the CRs and RRs should do 100% damage, then I could understand your concerns.

You aren't really answering why 5 Rail rounds that do 2,951 more base damage than a full clip of Missiles, 3,327 more shield damage than missiles, and 2,597 more armor damage than missiles needs a 10% damage buff.


You also haven't been paying attention, i have been asking for armor tank hardeners to be buffed as a defense against getting instapopped by missiles.

You should try to show why rails need to put out even more damage to "keep up" with other turrets it already surpasses. Rails don't need anymore love. You wanted to compare it to the damage missiles do, here you go.

Now that you know for a fact that rails do far more damage than missiles do, are you ready to accept that Rails are in a great place right now and don't need a buff?

Gonna start out with correcting some of your statistics...80 GJ Particle Cannon (Proto Railgun) has a base damage of 1696.5 (Source: Show Info on the 80 GJ Particle Cannon) and will overheat on the fourth shot if you just hold down the trigger (Source, just hopped into a match to make sure before posting), giving the 80GJ Particle Cannon a damage to overheat of 6786 vs the missile turret's damage per burst of 6476, or a more sustainable damage model for the railgun of 5089.5.

Additionally "Missile" Turrets can empty their entire magazines before the rail turret gets off its second shot (1.8 Seconds for the entirety of a missile turret's mag to be emtpy, vs the Rail Turrets 0.35 Spool Up, then 1.6 Fire Delay + 0.35 Spoolup). With heat statistics the way they are, the "Missile" turrets can get just over 2 magazines off (due to the reload type of the "Missile" turrets) before the Rail tank can get the entirety of its magazine off.

This doesn't negate your concerns about the "Handling" of each of the weapons (which is a valid concern), but you damage statistics are only showing the variable are only showing the data favorable to the Missile Turrets (and some of your data is out of date, or you where mistaken when posting). Saying that the D-HAV bonus shouldn't affect rail turrets is like saying the Commando Bonus (Caldari) shouldn't work on sniper rifles (Which there are cases for and against), and I'm personally in favor of consistency in this case.

My source is Protofits and CCP 1.7 devblog and there hasn't been any hotifx to change the large rail numbers.

Like i said, rail turrets do not need 9 shots to kill any tank. Whereas the overheat is managable, 5 shots are usually what i manage in a tank fight before overheating, but no matter what, fighting with missiles means dropping the whole magazine and waiting to reload.

I'll switch it to your scenario, whereas both tankers spam shots like crazy.

With your numbers 12 missiles still do 6,474.5 base 5179.2 vs shield 7769.4 vs armor
Rail in 4 shots 6785 base 6107 vs shield 7463 vs armor.

Rail still has a signifcant advantage in damage output and application, 5 hits and the fight is well and trully over.

We are getting into the nitty gritty, of why the rail is still much more powerful than missiles, the balance philosphy reason why i dont want a damage bonus for the DHAV to rails is that i don't want have combination of high speed, high manueverablity, long range, high damage tank. the only con would be relativly low eHP, but it would have enough speeed to traverse the redline anyway.

Risk vs Reward for DHAVs was that they would be rewarded for close range fights as they would put out some serious damage but they'd risk getting into serious trouble vs AV infantry. Take away the close range requirements, and we have just another purpose built redline sniper tank.

If the client based show info panes are out-of-date, that's something that needs to be hotfixed ASAP...

but as I said, the damage numbers don't entirely negate your arguments, particularly about the handling (and application) of each of the weapons. But bear in mind that the "Missile" Turrets are designed to be an alpha (by way of quick burst) weapon,
which should rightly have a lowered sustained and/or applied DPS than a more sustained DPS Weapon.

and as stated, they are very similar to the arguments against the Calmando getting a bonus to Sniper Rifle Damage...and avoiding a "Purpose built" Redline tank is something that needs to be considered when building the DHAVs...

I have never stated that your concerns weren't valid, just that your data wasn't entirely accurate (Just based on what the client showed), and that the difference between the turrets isn't as pronounced.

If the issue is the redline why not simply institute mechanics that prevent firing and damage application in the redline and for units like tanks a weapon systems delay to prevent them simply popping in and out.

HAV need range........it's a core piece of functionality of any tank.

All flaylocks 125 ROF

There is only one breach, it has 54.55 ROF.

All NK: 66.67 ROF

Rattati would you like me to do number builds for the scrambler lance, plasma mortar, autocannon and arc cannon adapted to 1.10 AV DPS standards that I had in my chrome build spreadsheet? It's an easy conversion.

Thanks to you guys who found this. I appreciate the help.

I can finish now. Would you all like me to hit turrets next?

If rattati doesn't already have those up we're going to need them.

Since Rattati seems to be nowhere near finished tweaking the hulls up I'll save the theorycrafting for later.

Practical application first.

Go ahead, but be warned that is a phase 2 or even 3 addition to HAV's. Hulls, modules and existing Weapons need to come first and be balanced.

1. Tesfa has proven why its a bad idea for infantry to talk about vehicle related subjects - Really i dont think you could have been anymore wrong and just proves that you dont use vehicles at all let alone turrets

2. Doc is right about opening a subject to everyone because as we have seen non pilots are trying to talk about something they do not know

3. AV/infantry now want all light weapons to do damage to vehicles - Really in todays terms that is like asking for an AK-47 to damage and destroy a Challenger tank - No to mention that if all weapons do damage then the DS and especially the LAV are then even weaker than before
3a. This is really double standards - My large missile which fires 6ft missiles doesnt even have enough splash let alone damage to kill a scout and they want laser rifles to damage a vehicle
3b. More double standards - My large blaster could kill infantry once upon a time, now it cant even hit a bunny hopping sentinal let alone a vehicle at 50m

4. Flux grenades should be flux grenades and not have a 2nd ability because all shield vehicles would be worse off espc if they lose 1500shield and cant move

5. Webifiers - Make it into a tool of some sorts so you have to hold it into place

Point 3 is not bad, if every weapon deal damage to LAV, it means less murder taxi

I very much appreciate the spreadsheet. The tone of this reply is more or less, however, much of the same, case in point 4 and 5 indicate willful misunderstanding. If you ever get banned it will be for breaking the forum rules, but you don't need to be banned to be ignored. My hope is that you can find a constructive way to post and help vehicle users.

We do, which is essentially demanding the PG, CPU, shield and armor skills restored, more slots than are proposed; lots of people have told Breakin many times that your vision for the ultra heavy is a massive amount of armor, but no matter how many times we pointed that out, he had his own vision of what they should be and was actively ignoring it.

Who use a LAV for something different from murder taxi or Jlav now?

Who use a LAV for something different from murder taxi or Jlav now?

1. Tesfa has proven why its a bad idea for infantry to talk about vehicle related subjects - Really i dont think you could have been anymore wrong and just proves that you dont use vehicles at all let alone turrets

1. How about skip to the post where you think rails overheat in 5shots
1a. How about skip to the post where you think rails do 1885damage per shot
1b. How about skip to the part where you think the railgun can fire all shots before the missile turret can
1c. How about you skip to the part where all your maths are wrong because you dont know about turret mechanics

1. How about skip to the post where you think rails overheat in 5shots
1a. How about skip to the post where you think rails do 1885damage per shot
1b. How about skip to the part where you think the railgun can fire all shots before the missile turret can
1c. How about you skip to the part where all your maths are wrong because you dont know about turret mechanics