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HMG Balance Proposal - No Direct nerfs.

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DRT 99 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 4	Posted - 2015.01.16 05:32:00 - [1] - Quote So i recently returned to the game and i have noticed that heavies are monsters - now dont get me wrong i completely agree going 1 vs 1 with an HMG heavy at close range should be suicide but this is alittle over the top. Its getting to the point where the only way to play when heavies are around is to be behind them (with either rep tool or shotgun),become one of the RE frizbee scrubs, or get a heavy yourself. So i thought up (what i feel is) a decent way to nerf heavies while retaining that 'OH SH!T A HEAVY!' feeling. With that in mind: What this ISNT: -Nerf Heavies QQ -Nerf HMG DPS -Nerf Heavy HP What im proposing is a reduction to speed while firing an HMG - similar to charging up a forge gun (as well as potentially for a short while after firing - like 0.5s) They can still sprint and move normally while not firing. What this does is make heavies more area denial and less murder-machines, through a reduction in their ability to chase opponents down. This also makes them more vulnerable to certain weapons (MDs, REs, FGs, Snipers, etc) which i believe is a positive thing. Thoughts?
Jonny D Buelle Mors Effera 468	Posted - 2015.01.16 06:05:00 - [2] - Quote Usually I hate threads where they ask for some changes or nerfs to heavies. Usually because they are a bunch of whiney noobs that need to 'git gud', learn their ranges and to use cover. Tactics OP. This change, I can handle. Unfortunately a pick up tactic I have with my logi bro will need to be revised (I rush out of cover firing supressive fire, he sticks to my ass till we are at the down guy, suppressive fire on the return). Drink until you can't drink no more. Then grab another bottle and drink some more! - Demetrious 'Jonny' Buelle.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6474	Posted - 2015.01.16 10:49:00 - [3] - Quote Constructive post. +1 Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1715	Posted - 2015.01.16 12:20:00 - [4] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: What im proposing is a reduction to speed while firing an HMG - similar to charging up a forge gun (as well as potentially for a short while after firing - like 0.5s) They can still sprint and move normally while not firing. So your just making it easier for them to be open to SG abuse because that charge time wouldn't allow them to counter fire quick enough and this might lead to a HMG user overheating faster from leaning on the trigger because of knowing about the delay , this also makes them open to RE " scrubs " as you put it because most heavies face more then one opponent during conflicts . This might work for those who travel in packs or squads but this idea will kill solo players who play that role . Every answer to issues shouldn't be , " squad up " or " get gud ." There are so many other things that I can think of but I'm not trying to take over your post . I believe with the heating mechanic that's in place one has to constantly be reminded of overheating and that's fine because that causes one to depend more on their sidearm but delays added is kinda overkill . Most of the complaints from this game are squad based not solo . A lot of players play solo in-game . For the most part and most of you know this , if you see packs of heavies ... their in a squad , see heavies and logi combos , their in a squad . When I played solo logi ( I played all logi's maxed threw respec ) players would always run from me and it made no sense because I supplied the reps and ammo with needles , I also kept a scanner on me but because I was solo I died a lot even trying to keep up with the pack because I was a solo player they devalued me . Like BW lets not implement another feature that will devalue the solo player and experience . Edit : If you think about it for the most part , the response time for a counter from a heavy is extremely long in relation to say the decloak and fire animation , heavies are slow in everything they do . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken Going for the gold 568	Posted - 2015.01.16 14:00:00 - [5] - Quote I got a better idea, increase the cost of heavy suits. Not by much, maybe 20%. I may not have a mic, but trust me, you NEED me in your squad if you want to win. When I'm on a roll, I'm unstoppable.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 159	Posted - 2015.01.16 14:07:00 - [6] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: DRT 99 wrote: What im proposing is a reduction to speed while firing an HMG - similar to charging up a forge gun (as well as potentially for a short while after firing - like 0.5s) They can still sprint and move normally while not firing. So your just making it easier for them to be open to SG abuse because that charge time wouldn't allow them to counter fire quick enough and this might lead to a HMG user overheating faster from leaning on the trigger because of knowing about the delay , this also makes them open to RE " scrubs " as you put it because most heavies face more then one opponent during conflicts . This might work for those who travel in packs or squads but this idea will kill solo players who play that role . Every answer to issues shouldn't be , " squad up " or " get gud ." There are so many other things that I can think of but I'm not trying to take over your post . I believe with the heating mechanic that's in place one has to constantly be reminded of overheating and that's fine because that causes one to depend more on their sidearm but delays added is kinda overkill . Most of the complaints from this game are squad based not solo . A lot of players play solo in-game . For the most part and most of you know this , if you see packs of heavies ... their in a squad , see heavies and logi combos , their in a squad . When I played solo logi ( I played all logi's maxed threw respec ) players would always run from me and it made no sense because I supplied the reps and ammo with needles , I also kept a scanner on me but because I was solo I died a lot even trying to keep up with the pack because I was a solo player they devalued me . Like BW lets not implement another feature that will devalue the solo player and experience . Edit : If you think about it for the most part , the response time for a counter from a heavy is extremely long in relation to say the decloak and fire animation , heavies are slow in everything they do . I think you missunderstood the OPs meaning...they want a movement speed penalty while firing, not a spin-up (the Movement Speed Penalty While Firing would be similar to the Movement Speed Penalty while Charging a FG)...Unless I'm misunderstanding your post Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6476	Posted - 2015.01.16 14:12:00 - [7] - Quote The proposal is making heavy movement speed slower while firing the gun the same way the forge gun slows the firer while charging. Not barrel spin up. Reading comprehension. Get some. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
DRT 99 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 6	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:07:00 - [8] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: 1: this also makes them open to RE " scrubs " as you put it because most heavies face more then one opponent during conflicts . 2: This might work for those who travel in packs or squads but this idea will kill solo players who play that role . 3: Every answer to issues shouldn't be , " squad up " or " get gud ." 4: There are so many other things that I can think of but I'm not trying to take over your post . 5: I believe with the heating mechanic that's in place one has to constantly be reminded of overheating and that's fine because that causes one to depend more on their sidearm but delays added is kinda overkill . 6: For the most part and most of you know this , if you see packs of heavies ... their in a squad , see heavies and logi combos , their in a squad . 7: Edit : If you think about it for the most part , the response time for a counter from a heavy is extremely long in relation to say the decloak and fire animation , heavies are slow in everything they do . 1: They would also be more vulnerable to MDs, PLCs, FGs, Snipers, and literally anything when in the open. IMO at close range a FG / PLC shot taking out a heavy is a decent counter. Also, heavies should not be able to win 2v1 at equal skill levels and equal gear levels. 2:Solo players are already getting the short end of the stick. Bandwidth, Proto, squads, and many other features kill solo players - as a frequent solo player myself id rather see the game balanced and a new 'no squads' mode added, though a suppose dust may lack the playerbase for that. 3:Neither of these are in my OP. 4: Im interested in hearing them - lets keep a constructive conversation going. 5: The heat mechanism does nothing to adress how screwed you are in a 1v1 vs a heavy. Also (as said before) im not proposing a fire delay. 6: Not entirely true - a large part of the problem is the solo players who cap the point and then spam heavies to hold it. Dead giveaway is when theres 8+ heavies on a point in dom from one team. 7:all things equal, a heavy will win a 1 vs 1 gunfight at less than 40m against an assault. If the heavy is more skilled the engagement will be closer and more one sided. If the assault is more skilled or extremely lucky, they MAYBE stand a chance. Heavies are slow in everything they do except kill. My proposal simply makes them slower at CHASING targets, not killing them.
Cavani1EE7 Murphys-Law 856	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:10:00 - [9] - Quote Nice idea but just a thought, along with that I'd reintroduce the rotation speed lowering, but now only while firing. 10100111001 Shield tanking is hard mode /period. 10100111001
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1718	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:38:00 - [10] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The proposal is making heavy movement speed slower while firing the gun the same way the forge gun slows the firer while charging. Not barrel spin up. Reading comprehension. Get some. You know , you are a D1cK ... ADS with an HMG is far more effective then just spraying and praying and already while doing the NO-ONE can run or strafe , so to make the spray movement slower STILL leaves them open to be strafed and SG , NK and RE'd by scouts or any suit with speed like a logi with the same weapons and speed enhancement mods and short range weapons . Having them slow down while just firing sounds like movement while in ADS and I use forges while charging is like moving while in ADS with a HMG . You played the role before bright boy .?. then you should know better instead of being snide but I guess it's just in your nature . You must be one of those people who believe that freedom of speech means , freedom to insult and ridicule ? OP this was the thought process that I was trying to convey , the HMG is much more effective while in ADS having them to move slower while general firing is kinda overkill and leaves them more open to close encounters and they already have that disadvantage by being slow , blind , having the largest hit box and signature , not withstanding being far less effective solo without help by a logi or fellow heavies . Can't balance a suit by a problem that your having in Dom where you already know the tactics that come into play by the opponent , that mode use to be a problem with vehicle spam and now they made changes to it to decrease that problem and like I said , that's a squad focal problem and not solo but your changes would effect the role in general and not just the mode that your having problems with or the solo player who will suffer the most . Most of the people who post are anti-solo so I would expect nothing less , not saying that's you OP but it's the general mood of the forums when reading posts . Most of the time the solo player isn't even considered . Have a problem with squads then something must be done in that regard , something that doesn't handicap the role for everyone . Just because they are already at a disadvantage doesn't give reason to just heap more trouble upon that role . Like you said yourself , they already have to deal with multiple threats ( MD's , FG's , other HMG's , vehicles and so on ) and if you already see that there is some unbalance and it's disproportionate then why would you add to the negative weight ??? That won't lead to balance . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .

Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1718	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:45:00 - [11] - Quote There is just no way that a dedicated heavy can look at this post and not think " nerf " . Look at the language . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
Finn Colman Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 121	Posted - 2015.01.16 17:00:00 - [12] - Quote I think that the movement speed should probably be lowered very slightly while hip-firing, and ADS movement speed should be left alone. I have chased and gotten chased by enough people to know that even a small difference in speed can make a significant difference. I will state that I have a slight bias against HMG heavies, but I have a lot of difficulty trying to play one, since it doesn't fit my usual fast-moving play-style. PSA: Tell players to terminate in order to access mCRUs.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6484	Posted - 2015.01.16 17:54:00 - [13] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: More QQ because Breakin called me on not bothering to read Please cry directly into the bucket. I'll take lessons from you in playing sentinel when hell freezes over you stinking newbie. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5876	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:04:00 - [14] - Quote My only serious concern with this proposal is the 0.5 second of slow speed after you stop firing. In those "OH **!" moments being slowed down while you are trying to dive for cover would be incredibly frustrating. It would be the Sprint Glitch all over again. Fight or Flight!** If I am not firing, I want to be able to run. It is just basic human instinct. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5876	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:30:00 - [15] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: There is just no way that a dedicated heavy can look at this post and not think " nerf " . I hate to break it to you, but a nerf is coming. It is up to the dedicated Sentinel community to determine what that nerf will be, because if we don't come up with a viable proposal, then Rettati will have to come up with something on his own. Just go ask the ADS pilots what happen if you stick your head in the sand and pretend that there is nothing wrong. And for the Record, I play 1 hour solo every weekday morning before down time, while playing in squads whenever I can get on in the evening. I look at this from both a solo and squad perspective. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1719	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:47:00 - [16] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: There is just no way that a dedicated heavy can look at this post and not think " nerf " . I hate to break it to you, but a nerf is coming. It is up to the dedicated Sentinel community to determine what that nerf will be, because if we don't come up with a viable proposal, then Rettati will have to come up with something on his own. Just go ask the ADS pilots what happen if you stick your head in the sand and pretend that there is nothing wrong. And for the Record, I play 1 hour solo every weekday morning before down time, while playing in squads whenever I can get on in the evening. I look at this from both a solo and squad perspective. But did you understand my point ? Or was I being dense ??? Edit : Was my belief too exaggerated or could you understand the concern and the intent ? Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6488	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:48:00 - [17] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: There is just no way that a dedicated heavy can look at this post and not think " nerf " . I hate to break it to you, but a nerf is coming. It is up to the dedicated Sentinel community to determine what that nerf will be, because if we don't come up with a viable proposal, then Rettati will have to come up with something on his own. Just go ask the ADS pilots what happen if you stick your head in the sand and pretend that there is nothing wrong. And for the Record, I play 1 hour solo every weekday morning before down time, while playing in squads whenever I can get on in the evening. I look at this from both a solo and squad perspective. turn off aim assist for all variants of the HMG. then all of the HMG scrubs will be stuck at my level, and I'll be able to kill them, no longer being handicapped against sentinels with no freaking tactical awareness. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1719	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:49:00 - [18] - Quote You can't kill them because YOU are a scrub . Now move on scrub . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6488	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:50:00 - [19] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: You can't kill them because YOU are a scrub . Now move on scrub . You keep talking. And nothing useful is heard. Ever. I run HMG sent without the aim assist handicap. what's YOUR excuse? Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1719	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:50:00 - [20] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: More QQ because Breakin called me on not bothering to read Please cry directly into the bucket. I'll take lessons from you in playing sentinel when hell freezes over you stinking newbie. I promise you on the strength of the shining sun that I would eat you for breakfast one on one , I already KNOW that . Edit : Better have your squad when you talk to me because I know you need it , so hop back in your scout and speed off . You use Assault against me your dead . You definitely use heavy and the same . I'll kick rocks and dirt over your gray carcass . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .

Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6488	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:51:00 - [21] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: More QQ because Breakin called me on not bothering to read Please cry directly into the bucket. I'll take lessons from you in playing sentinel when hell freezes over you stinking newbie. I promise you on the strength of the shining sun that I would eat you for breakfast one on one , I already KNOW that . Doubt it. I wouldn't even bust out the good stuff. just kill you repeatedly in my pink dropsuits to rub salt into the wound. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1719	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:53:00 - [22] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: You can't kill them because YOU are a scrub . Now move on scrub . You keep talking. And nothing useful is heard. Ever. I run HMG sent without the aim assist handicap. what's YOUR excuse? Don't have one and don't need it , like I said ... you better bring help when you address me bud . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1719	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:55:00 - [23] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Doubt it. I wouldn't even bust out the good stuff. just kill you repeatedly in my pink dropsuits to rub salt into the wound. I'll bend you over , open up a can of Quafe and shove it up your @$$ . Kick rocks and dirt over your gray carcass . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2261	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:55:00 - [24] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: You can't kill them because YOU are a scrub . Now move on scrub . You keep talking. And nothing useful is heard. Ever. I run HMG sent without the aim assist handicap. what's YOUR excuse? Don't have one and don't need it , like I said ... you better bring help when you address me bud . Help has arrived. Can confirm. Nothing useful is heard. Home at Last <3
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1719	Posted - 2015.01.16 19:06:00 - [25] - Quote Like I said , he NEEDS it . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
Lightning35 Delta514 48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE 150	Posted - 2015.01.16 19:12:00 - [26] - Quote Not bad. For those who don't like it, think of the slowness becouse of all the recoil and vibration stuff that slows you down. 48th Special Operations Force. "As a team or alone, I dominate the battlefield."
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6489	Posted - 2015.01.16 19:18:00 - [27] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Like I said , he NEEDS it . ZOMG gaiz Interwebz badazz here! Maek wai, maek wai! You do realize that all the posturing in the world isn't going to change the fact that you contribute nothing useful to the forums. Or the game. Or to my sense of apprehension. I find it amusing that you seem to think that your opinion matters to anyone on the internet, or that you think you calling out everyone around you as idiots makes you superior. As far as professional trolls go you're still pretty amateur hour. Learn some subtlety and I might give you some consideration. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 522	Posted - 2015.01.17 00:10:00 - [28] - Quote I gotta go with Fox here. If there is a speed penalty when not moving it'll pretty much kill the HMG and most heavies. When we stop shooting to move we need to move -- we move slow enough as it is... Movement speed reduction to ADS level when hip firing is totally acceptable. It'll have the added bonus of getting casual heavies killed faster too -- as they are now slower and easier to shoot down (increased incoming damage.) A reasonable hit to both offense and defense. Turn speed reduction is unreasonable though.
Megaman Trigger OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 190	Posted - 2015.01.17 01:11:00 - [29] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: My only serious concern with this proposal is the "potential" 0.5 second of slow speed after you stop firing. In those "OH **!" moments being slowed down while you are trying to dive for cover would be incredibly frustrating. It would be the Sprint Glitch all over again. Fight or Flight!** If I am not firing, I want to be able to run. It is just basic human instinct. So... I support this proposal if the slowing effect is only applied when the trigger is held down. It would further reduce the HMG Sentinel's ability to strafe which would tip the scale back toward medium suits a bit more. Experienced Sentinels would learn to burst, move, burst, move etc, but that would still be less effective than current strafing, and people who don't play Sentinel all the time would be easy targets. It also makes sense that the Sentinel would be slowed while firing as they have to brace themselves against the kick of the HMG to keep it steady. +1 Purifier. First Class.
JUDASisMYhomeboy xCosmic Voidx 272	Posted - 2015.01.17 01:13:00 - [30] - Quote I definitely like the idea +1 "In a world gone mad,only a lunatic is truly insane" Homer J Simpson

killertojo42 KnightKiller's inc. 120	Posted - 2015.01.17 01:53:00 - [31] - Quote Decreased moving while shooting but decent increase to HP, less mobility but terrifying as point defense is the objective, also I own two republic BPOs with REs so I see a heavy spam and I spam Because both of us dying as I'm in my nomad BPO is to my benefit
DRT 99 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 9	Posted - 2015.01.17 02:21:00 - [32] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: open to be strafed and SG , NK and RE'd by scouts or any suit with speed like a logi Because heavies shouldnt have counters? Also when did logis become fast? someone please explain this to me. Fox Gaden wrote: My only serious concern with this proposal is the "potential" 0.5 second of slow speed after you stop firing (Snip) It would be the Sprint Glitch all over again. In hindsight, that 0.5s was probably unecessary - and when you bring up the sprint glitch... shudders Fox Gaden wrote: It also makes sense that the Sentinel would be slowed while firing as they have to brace themselves against the kick of the HMG to keep it steady. This was actually my inspiration - and its already present on the FG so it should be easy to implement Imp Smash wrote: Movement speed reduction to ADS level when hip firing is totally acceptable Was in a rush and forgot to mention in the OP - ADS speed reduction and firing speed reduction wouldnt stack so theres no penalty to ADSing and Firing. Ill update the OP. Imp Smash wrote: Turn speed reduction is unreasonable though. 100% agreed
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1773	Posted - 2015.01.17 02:30:00 - [33] - Quote In response to OP: I like the idea. My only concern is that a "while-firing" movement restriction might cause issues with target tracking. We'd have to be careful not to affect rotation speed.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 525	Posted - 2015.01.17 03:11:00 - [34] - Quote I also want to ask -- how do you imagine these changes affecting Assault HMG and Burst HMG?
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1719	Posted - 2015.01.17 04:38:00 - [35] - Quote Op please read what I said before you use my words to misquote me . I actually used some of what you already stated as examples . If you would read what was written before you come to your conclusion and try to use my own words against me you would understand that your misquoting me and if you have a feasible point then you wouldn't need to do that . Please don't follow fools , you were doing so good and you said that you wanted to have a discussion . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
DRT 99 Unleashed Hybrid's 11	Posted - 2015.01.17 07:42:00 - [36] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: I also want to ask -- how do you imagine these changes affecting Assault HMG and Burst HMG? Assault HMG is already in need of alittle love - id say buff its damage a tiny bit and either a: keep the increased range and the slowdown b: same range as regular HMG but no / reduced slowdown As far as the burst HMG.... i suppose the heavy would be slowed down during the half second burst, which i suppose would lead to some awkward start/stop movement. From my experiences using the burst HMG so far, it honestly feels broken OP. I hate to say it, but perhaps the slowdown-after-shooting could apply exclusively to the burst HMG? This would lead to steady movement even between bursts. Again, the 0.5s i originally stated was just a ballpark figure to get things rolling, could just as easily be 0.2 or 0.3. Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Op please read what I said before you use my words to misquote me I did read what you said - however, having heavies more easily countered by shotguns and grenades was part of the solution
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6535	Posted - 2015.01.17 08:29:00 - [37] - Quote Just drop heavy machinegun base damage by 10% and turn off aim assist. I'm not joking. AA has an inordinately large effect on the performance of the HMG. You could literally dump AA, do the 10% base nerf and rebuff the Heavy Damage Mods to 10% and still have killable sentinels that cannot simply own cqc rather than being powerful in CQC. You could even revert the heat changes. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Lady MDK Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 258	Posted - 2015.01.17 10:27:00 - [38] - Quote The issue as i see is the weapon not the suit. Sentinals were billed as anti vehicle platforms which is fine the forge gun does this job well. The commando is a heavy class that can field multiple light weapons and does its job well. The issue is that the game then has allows an anti vehicle platform to field an anti infantry weapon like the hmg. Of course a heavy should take out a medium suit, but from my angle all i often see are groups of sentinals with hmg's. The rep is sometimes an issue but only because the combo used can normally mow down any opposition with little danger. IMO make sent weaponry more AV especially if you are thinking of bringing back other HAV's and let commandos be the heavy anti infantry that they are. Flame on.... Anyone getting annoyed by reading of the above post should consider the following. I don't care so neither should you :)
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6539	Posted - 2015.01.17 10:47:00 - [39] - Quote I'd flame but I'm actually brainstorming sentinel AV weapons. They are intended to be able to be used on infantry with two caveats: 1: they are a minimum of 200 DPS behind the HMG 2: they do not benefit from aim assist. Rather like the forge gun if you want to kill foot nerds, you need to be a relatively good shot. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Megaman Trigger OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 190	Posted - 2015.01.17 11:03:00 - [40] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I'd flame but I'm actually brainstorming sentinel AV weapons. They are intended to be able to be used on infantry with two caveats: 1: they are a minimum of 200 DPS behind the HMG 2: they do not benefit from aim assist. Rather like the forge gun if you want to kill foot nerds, you need to be a relatively good shot. Nothing quite like smacking a sniper in the face with a ~~Mega Buster~~ Forge Gun charge shot Purifier. First Class.

Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6555	Posted - 2015.01.17 12:45:00 - [41] - Quote Exactly Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5896	Posted - 2015.01.17 16:55:00 - [42] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: Imp Smash wrote: I also want to ask -- how do you imagine these changes affecting Assault HMG and Burst HMG? Assault HMG is already in need of alittle love - id say buff its damage a tiny bit and either a: keep the increased range and the slowdown b: same range as regular HMG but no / reduced slowdown As far as the burst HMG.... i suppose the heavy would be slowed down during the half second burst, which i suppose would lead to some awkward start/stop movement. From my experiences using the burst HMG so far, it honestly feels broken OP. I hate to say it, but perhaps the slowdown-after-shooting could apply exclusively to the burst HMG? This would lead to steady movement even between bursts. Again, the 0.5s i originally stated was just a ballpark figure to get things rolling, could just as easily be 0.2 or 0.3. Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Op please read what I said before you use my words to misquote me I did read what you said - however, having heavies more easily countered by shotguns and grenades was part of the solution The only think wrong with the Assault HMG is that it needs a dispersion reduction to allow it to be effective about 10m farther out. If you judge the Assault HMG based on how it performs in CQC, then you are doing it wrong. It is a mid range weapon. I would rather have the recent heat buff on the Burst HMG reversed than have even a 0.3 second slowdown after I stop firing. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5896	Posted - 2015.01.17 16:59:00 - [43] - Quote Lady MDK wrote: The issue as i see is the weapon not the suit. Sentinals were billed as anti vehicle platforms which is fine the forge gun does this job well. The commando is a heavy class that can field multiple light weapons and does its job well. The issue is that the game then has allows an anti vehicle platform to field an anti infantry weapon like the hmg. Of course a heavy should take out a medium suit, but from my angle all i often see are groups of sentinals with hmg's. The rep is sometimes an issue but only because the combo used can normally mow down any opposition with little danger. IMO make sent weaponry more AV especially if you are thinking of bringing back other HAV's and let commandos be the heavy anti infantry that they are. Flame on.... Never heard of the Sentinel Suit referred to as an AV platform before, and I have been playing DUST for 2 years. I mean, yes there has always been the Forge Gun, but that is just one of many AV weapons. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE Consolidated Dust 143	Posted - 2015.01.17 17:18:00 - [44] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: So i recently returned to the game and i have noticed that heavies are monsters - now dont get me wrong i completely agree going 1 vs 1 with an HMG heavy at close range should be suicide but this is alittle over the top. Its getting to the point where the only way to play when heavies are around is to be behind them (with either rep tool or shotgun),become one of the RE frizbee scrubs, or get a heavy yourself. So i thought up (what i feel is) a decent way to nerf heavies while retaining that 'OH SH!T A HEAVY!' feeling. With that in mind: What this ISNT: -Nerf Heavies QQ -Nerf HMG DPS -Nerf Heavy HP What im proposing is a reduction to speed while firing an HMG - similar to charging up a forge gun (~~as well as potentially for a short while after firing - like 0.5s~~) They can still sprint and move normally while not firing. Additionally, penalties for shooting and ADSing wouldnt stack, meaning that shooting, ADSing and Shooting while ADS all allow the same amount of movement. What this does is make heavies more area denial and less murder-machines, through a reduction in their ability to chase opponents down. This also makes them more vulnerable to certain weapons (MDs, REs, FGs, Snipers, etc) which i believe is a positive thing. Thoughts? You said it-" get a heavy yourself " EDIT: Generic Racism Argument: Why does FG make heavies slower but HMG doesnt? Stop being racist CCP! you said it-" get a heavy yourself "
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6557	Posted - 2015.01.17 17:33:00 - [45] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Lady MDK wrote: The issue as i see is the weapon not the suit. Sentinals were billed as anti vehicle platforms which is fine the forge gun does this job well. The commando is a heavy class that can field multiple light weapons and does its job well. The issue is that the game then has allows an anti vehicle platform to field an anti infantry weapon like the hmg. Of course a heavy should take out a medium suit, but from my angle all i often see are groups of sentinals with hmg's. The rep is sometimes an issue but only because the combo used can normally mow down any opposition with little danger. IMO make sent weaponry more AV especially if you are thinking of bringing back other HAV's and let commandos be the heavy anti infantry that they are. Flame on.... Never heard of the Sentinel Suit referred to as an AV platform before, and I have been playing DUST for 2 years. I mean, yes there has always been the Forge Gun, but that is just one of many AV weapons. You've head me call it the ideal Av weapons platform more than once. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
DRT 99 Unleashed Hybrid's 11	Posted - 2015.01.17 17:57:00 - [46] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: The only think wrong with the Assault HMG is that it needs a dispersion reduction to allow it to be effective about 10m farther out. If you judge the Assault HMG based on how it performs in CQC, then you are doing it wrong. It is a mid range weapon. I would rather have the recent heat buff on the Burst HMG reversed than have even a 0.3 second slowdown after I stop firing. Ive been using the assault HMG at medium range, and thats what im talking about - even in its intended range its ability to be outgunned by other weapons is matched only by the laser rifle at close range. It needs something OTHER than range, else why not just use a Rifle? Im not sure increasing burst HMG heat generation would do very much. It really doesnt matter how often you overheat if your target is dead before that. GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: you said it-" get a heavy yourself " This isnt a solution, weve been through this before and it didnt work: The only counter to tanks is tanks The only counter to Scouts is Scouts
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5896	Posted - 2015.01.17 18:04:00 - [47] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Lady MDK wrote: The issue as i see is the weapon not the suit. Sentinals were billed as anti vehicle platforms which is fine the forge gun does this job well. The commando is a heavy class that can field multiple light weapons and does its job well. The issue is that the game then has allows an anti vehicle platform to field an anti infantry weapon like the hmg. Of course a heavy should take out a medium suit, but from my angle all i often see are groups of sentinals with hmg's. The rep is sometimes an issue but only because the combo used can normally mow down any opposition with little danger. IMO make sent weaponry more AV especially if you are thinking of bringing back other HAV's and let commandos be the heavy anti infantry that they are. Flame on.... Never heard of the Sentinel Suit referred to as an AV platform before, and I have been playing DUST for 2 years. I mean, yes there has always been the Forge Gun, but that is just one of many AV weapons. You've head me call it the ideal Av weapons platform more than once. And I have called the Scout an ideal AV platform more than once. He was giving the impression that the Sentinel was designed only for AV, and I had never heard that before. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5896	Posted - 2015.01.17 18:10:00 - [48] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: Im not sure increasing burst HMG heat generation would do very much. It really doesnt matter how often you overheat if your target is dead before that. Well, it seemed like there was only a handful of us still using it after the Delta Heat nerf. So the heat nerf must have done something, as it was a very popular weapon before Delta. I am simply saying that I will not use a weapon that prevents me from switching from fight to flight. I am fine with a slowing effect when you are shooting, but I want to be able to drops my weapon and dash for cover when the **** hits the fan. Adding a slowdown effect that lingers after I stop firing would ruin the weapon for me. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE Consolidated Dust 143	Posted - 2015.01.17 18:46:00 - [49] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: The only think wrong with the Assault HMG is that it needs a dispersion reduction to allow it to be effective about 10m farther out. If you judge the Assault HMG based on how it performs in CQC, then you are doing it wrong. It is a mid range weapon. I would rather have the recent heat buff on the Burst HMG reversed than have even a 0.3 second slowdown after I stop firing. Ive been using the assault HMG at medium range, and thats what im talking about - even in its intended range its ability to be outgunned by other weapons is matched only by the laser rifle at close range. It needs something OTHER than range, else why not just use a Rifle? Im not sure increasing burst HMG heat generation would do very much. It really doesnt matter how often you overheat if your target is dead before that. GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: you said it-" get a heavy yourself " This isnt a solution, weve been through this before and it didnt work: The only counter to tanks is tanks The only counter to Scouts is Scouts ASYMETRY is what makes DUST fun, intellect with experience beats asymetry. location dictates tactics, and direct counters along with indirect counters should be increased with additional content. balance is ephemeral given a change in map location. OMNI to advanced gear to counter, should be the community mantra. A heavy in the open is already easy prey, slowing them down will cause them to lurk in CQB even more.
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE Consolidated Dust 143	Posted - 2015.01.17 20:16:00 - [50] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: The only think wrong with the Assault HMG is that it needs a dispersion reduction to allow it to be effective about 10m farther out. If you judge the Assault HMG based on how it performs in CQC, then you are doing it wrong. It is a mid range weapon. I would rather have the recent heat buff on the Burst HMG reversed than have even a 0.3 second slowdown after I stop firing. Ive been using the assault HMG at medium range, and thats what im talking about - even in its intended range its ability to be outgunned by other weapons is matched only by the laser rifle at close range. It needs something OTHER than range, else why not just use a Rifle? Im not sure increasing burst HMG heat generation would do very much. It really doesnt matter how often you overheat if your target is dead before that. GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: you said it-" get a heavy yourself " This isnt a solution, weve been through this before and it didnt work: The only counter to tanks is tanks The only counter to Scouts is Scouts Good games last night, and I look forward to seeing you back in game. I am an OMNI and I get frustrated with the typical resistant personalities that most QQ'ers express in the Nerf sub-culture. DUST is an asymetrical game, and I love it for that reason. Asymetry and balance aer unreconcilable, so we counter, but the counters are problematic in that location dictates application of the proper DPS profile. With that said, asymetry-can be trumped by intelligence paired with experience-thus the need to OMNI. A heavy in the open is my favorite prey, calling "heavy in the open" on comms is fun, chewing that heavy up is even better. Slowing them down will only lead to objective loading. Slowing everything down would help hit detection greatly, and I am a huge proponent. An across the board speed and a reflected damage reduction "balancing" cycle would be good. PS: I run a three KINCAT ammar-so in the open...lol

DRT 99 Unleashed Hybrid's 12	Posted - 2015.01.17 20:26:00 - [51] - Quote GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: ASYMETRY is what makes DUST fun, intellect with experience beats asymetry. location dictates tactics, and direct counters along with indirect counters should be increased with additional content. balance is ephemeral given a change in map location. OMNI to advanced gear to counter, should be the community mantra. A heavy in the open is already easy prey, slowing them down will cause them to lurk in CQB even more. PS:it was nice to squad with you last night, welcome back, and good hunting wishes in the future. Asymetry is only fun when youre on the winning side. That being said, asymetry granted through POSITIONING is great - if you die to someone of equal skill and suit cost behind cover while youre in the open, you could have prevented that. you could have been in cover or stayed out of the open. Asymetry because someone in a suit equally / less expensive than yours with equal / lower skill than you has more HP and DPS and killed you because you didnt fit REs is not. Heavies in the open are already easy targets, the point isnt making them easier to kill in the open, its making them easier to avoid close up. Yes, i admit that this will lock heavies to CQC more than they are now - but is that a bad thing? More area denial, less mass murder. Likewise nice squadding with you, hope to see you around.
DRT 99 Unleashed Hybrid's 12	Posted - 2015.01.17 20:34:00 - [52] - Quote GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: Good games last night, and I look forward to seeing you back in game. I am an OMNI and I get frustrated with the typical resistant personalities that most QQ'ers express in the Nerf sub-culture. DUST is an asymetrical game, and I love it for that reason. Asymetry and balance aer unreconcilable, so we counter, but the counters are problematic in that location dictates application of the proper DPS profile. With that said, asymetry-can be trumped by intelligence paired with experience-thus the need to OMNI. A heavy in the open is my favorite prey, calling "heavy in the open" on comms is fun, chewing that heavy up is even better. Slowing them down will only lead to objective loading. Slowing everything down would help hit detection greatly, and I am a huge proponent. An across the board speed and a reflected damage reduction "balancing" cycle would be good. PS: I run a three KINCAT ammar-so in the open...lol By OMNI you mean youre skilled into multiple roles? I agree that some level of asymetry is good - one thing having a counter is excellent. Unfortunately, the only counter to heavies right now is a shotgun or knife to the back of the head or an RE / FG to the face. This proposal wouldnt change that, just make them slightly more vulnerable to those counters, while making facing a heavy less anti-fun for those without the counters, as running away and surviving is now more of a possibility. Edit: I noticed you were moving fast, also noticed that assault HMG. Respect the fact that you actually got it to work, never seems to do anything other than make loud noises when i use it.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5896	Posted - 2015.01.17 20:45:00 - [53] - Quote I was thinking about the Burst HMG mechanics while walking the dog, and I realized that it can be handled the same as the regular HMG. The key is to consider the pause between burst as part of the firing cycle. So the slowing effect would be in effect from the time you pull the trigger to the time the last round fires, including the pauses in between. The important thing though is that once that last round fires the slowing effect stops. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE Consolidated Dust 143	Posted - 2015.01.17 21:01:00 - [54] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: Good games last night, and I look forward to seeing you back in game. I am an OMNI and I get frustrated with the typical resistant personalities that most QQ'ers express in the Nerf sub-culture. DUST is an asymetrical game, and I love it for that reason. Asymetry and balance aer unreconcilable, so we counter, but the counters are problematic in that location dictates application of the proper DPS profile. With that said, asymetry-can be trumped by intelligence paired with experience-thus the need to OMNI. A heavy in the open is my favorite prey, calling "heavy in the open" on comms is fun, chewing that heavy up is even better. Slowing them down will only lead to objective loading. Slowing everything down would help hit detection greatly, and I am a huge proponent. An across the board speed and a reflected damage reduction "balancing" cycle would be good. PS: I run a three KINCAT ammar-so in the open...lol By OMNI you mean youre skilled into multiple roles? I agree that some level of asymetry is good - one thing having a counter is excellent. Unfortunately, the only counter to heavies right now is a shotgun or knife to the back of the head or an RE / FG to the face. This proposal wouldnt change that, just make them slightly more vulnerable to those counters, while making facing a heavy less anti-fun for those without the counters, as running away and surviving is now more of a possibility. Edit: I noticed you were moving fast, also noticed that assault HMG. Respect the fact that you actually got it to work, never seems to do anything other than make loud noises when i use it. I do understand the hmg frustration, because I lived it. here is an example of indirect counter caused by location and map design. Harvest line Domination- a heavy is not a good choice a medium is better. CCP needs to rethink these really big sockets ( performance, expense, delay, inhibits map size, new map rollouts take to long) and use terrain with line of fire obstruction that could be used as concealment and not cover. Having new maps, and i don't care if some are throw away or beta work in progress designs-that would change or be pulled out of rotation before they are mastered by the player base-this would fix nerf-buff, because you can't dominate unknown ground, maybe an objective but not the battle space.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5896	Posted - 2015.01.17 21:04:00 - [55] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: ASYMETRY is what makes DUST fun, intellect with experience beats asymetry. location dictates tactics, and direct counters along with indirect counters should be increased with additional content. balance is ephemeral given a change in map location. OMNI to advanced gear to counter, should be the community mantra. A heavy in the open is already easy prey, slowing them down will cause them to lurk in CQB even more. PS:it was nice to squad with you last night, welcome back, and good hunting wishes in the future. Asymetry is only fun when youre on the winning side. That being said, asymetry granted through POSITIONING is great - if you die to someone of equal skill and suit cost behind cover while youre in the open, you could have prevented that. you could have been in cover or stayed out of the open. Asymetry because someone in a suit equally / less expensive than yours with equal / lower skill than you has more HP and DPS and killed you because you didnt fit REs is not. Heavies in the open are already easy targets, the point isnt making them easier to kill in the open, its making them easier to avoid close up. Yes, i admit that this will lock heavies to CQC more than they are now - but is that a bad thing? More area denial, less mass murder. Likewise nice squadding with you, hope to see you around. I agree with his Asymmetry premise, but the advantages should not be too great. What I like about this slowing while firing proposal is that it would reduce the gap between Medium Frames and Sentinels, but is not severe enough to eliminate that gap. Sentinels would still have the HP and DPS advantage, while Medium Frames will be able to strafe more effectively. The way it is supposed to work is: Scout beats Sentinel. Sentinel beats Medium Frame. Assault beats Scout. There is still some work to be done on that last part. But the other point is that system is a generalization. It reflects where the advantage should lay in a non tactical encounter. What makes it fun is that you can use tactics to overcome the advantage of other suits. The issue you are addressing in this thread is that the advantages the HMG Sentinel has seems to be slightly greater than they should be. The slowing effect would give the strafing advantage to the medium and small frame suits, without impacting the SentinelGÇÖs main strengths. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5896	Posted - 2015.01.17 21:12:00 - [56] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: Edit: I noticed you were moving fast, also noticed that assault HMG. Respect the fact that you actually got it to work, never seems to do anything other than make loud noises when i use it. On Line Harvest I can do as well with an Assault HMG as any other HMG. I can do well with it on Ashland as well. You need open spaces with sufficient cover scattered about so you can control range. If it had a bit more range it would be useful in a lot more circumstances. Your target needs to be ideally between 20m and 35m away. It sort of sucks in CQC, but since it is meant to be a medium range weapon I don't see a problem with that. You can still kill stuff close up, it just takes longer. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 527	Posted - 2015.01.17 23:53:00 - [57] - Quote I don't think it can work like Paper Rock Sissors. Heavy>Ass>Sc>Hea It will always be a case of Paper Rock Shotgun. Hence our current nerf buff cycle. Dust IS designed to be Environment+Weaponry+Equipment+Teammates=Combat Dogma. The idea that 1 frame type beats another is...narrow I guess I would say. it oversimplifies the complexity of the game which in turn drops context from the equation leading to imbalance. Let me clarify my question about HMG alternates. 1. Would you expect a movement slowdown effect to be applied to the Assault HMG/Burst HMGs when they are used? Assault HMG really isn't that good. The problem isn't that it is lackluster up close. It's an extended range HMG, so that is to be expected. It's just that the range at which it is effective is a bit narrow and comes up rarely. Essentially the instances where a heavy will be at the right range to use said Assault HMG are far and few between. So no one loads it out for that. If it had more effective range then maybe it would be equipped more often. Add to that the Assault is a mid range weapon -- which implies more open areas. So a slowdown effect would be further detrimental to those situations. Take the burst. The HMG that requires the most skill to use. Why would you create a stutter effect? You don't see many Burst HMGs -- and I'll be honest -- the Burst HMG is much better than the standard right now. Even after the last change. I say change because everyone thinks it was nerfed when it was not. So they stopped using it. It just requires more skill to use now. But add a stutter effect to it, and you'll be unable to aim with it, so I don't see how a slowdown would help there.
DRT 99 Unleashed Hybrid's 12	Posted - 2015.01.18 08:23:00 - [58] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: DRT 99 wrote: Edit: I noticed you were moving fast, also noticed that assault HMG. Respect the fact that you actually got it to work, never seems to do anything other than make loud noises when i use it. On Line Harvest I can do as well with an Assault HMG as any other HMG. I can do well with it on Ashland as well. You need open spaces with sufficient cover scattered about so you can control range. If it had a bit more range it would be useful in a lot more circumstances. Your target needs to be ideally between 20m and 35m away. It sort of sucks in CQC, but since it is meant to be a medium range weapon I don't see a problem with that. You can still kill stuff close up, it just takes longer. Regular HMG still does excellent damage at those ranges - and i wouldnt be surprised if it outDPSed the assault at the majority of that range bracket. I simply didnt see a reason to use it over a rifle.
Lady MDK Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 259	Posted - 2015.01.18 08:35:00 - [59] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Lady MDK wrote: The issue as i see is the weapon not the suit. Sentinals were billed as anti vehicle platforms which is fine the forge gun does this job well. The commando is a heavy class that can field multiple light weapons and does its job well. The issue is that the game then has allows an anti vehicle platform to field an anti infantry weapon like the hmg. Of course a heavy should take out a medium suit, but from my angle all i often see are groups of sentinals with hmg's. The rep is sometimes an issue but only because the combo used can normally mow down any opposition with little danger. IMO make sent weaponry more AV especially if you are thinking of bringing back other HAV's and let commandos be the heavy anti infantry that they are. Flame on.... Never heard of the Sentinel Suit referred to as an AV platform before, and I have been playing DUST for 2 years. I mean, yes there has always been the Forge Gun, but that is just one of many AV weapons. Look at the suit description... It says something like 'the only suit that can go toe to toe with armoured vehicles and survive '. It just seems a little odd to me that they would put this and then give it an anti personel weapon like the hmg. Anyone getting annoyed by reading of the above post should consider the following. I don't care so neither should you :)
Kierkegaard Soren Eridani Light Horse Striker 651	Posted - 2015.01.18 11:05:00 - [60] - Quote Really like the idea. I have no real issue with heavies, but I find that HMG as it is has no real drawbacks comparative to its killing power. Rattati has tried to balance it around heat and I don't think it's worked. Anyway, +1 to OP proposal. Also, regarding the assault variant; considerably lower DPS, tight dispersion, better range, improved mobility when firing. A weapon designed to suppress from range and allow the heavy to engage in a limited fashion targets that are out in the open. Dedicated Commando. CEO of Eridani Light Horse Strikers. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 539	Posted - 2015.01.19 00:17:00 - [61] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: The 'stuttering' movement wasnt really intentional. simply how my proposal would (granted, unintentionally) affect the burst HMG. I thought about this briefly, and I came up with a revision id like peoples thoughts on: Burst HMG has no slowdown while firing, but is horrifically inacurate (less accurate than current HMGs when they start shooting) and does not gain accuracy during the burst. In exchange, ADS offers significantly improved accuracy, but at the cost of ADS movement speed. Also, what is everyones thought about having the slowdown affect apply to a reduced degree while moving backwards? This would ease some of the earlier concerns about 'fight or flight'. Then the Burst HMG would be useless against pretty much any suit with any sort of speed (so basically any suit except other heavies.) It is already the only variant that requires any skill to use -- so I still don't see why it would need a slowdown or how this would help the situation.
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.01.20 02:45:00 - [62] - Quote How would that nerf the burst HMG? If anything, its a buff, as the inaccuracy helps hit people that are strafing, and the accuracy while ADSed would help kill harder targets at mid range.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 539	Posted - 2015.01.20 03:20:00 - [63] - Quote Because aiming down sights with an HMG doesn't work on a close target that is moving ANY direction except strait towards you or backwards. Since 99% of the time your target is moving at some angle, the ADS slowdown in aiming will make it so your Burst HMG won't keep up as far as damage application. Even if you raise your ADS sensitivity higher, you are still looking at a smaller narrower view window. Imagine using a light weapon, and when your opponent gets into CQC you go from hipfire to ADS while they are strafing much faster than you. How well that would work for you? :( Burst HMG is designed around the pause in firing. Inaccuracy means that you apply damage to a wider area. So you are more likely to hit, but less likely to do appreciable damage. Meanwhile the target is damaging you constantly. This is the HMG's combat philosophy, High constant damage over a wide area. It emphasizes time spent firing over accuracy. The burst HMG's combat design is extremely high damage in a small area with what amounts to a cooldown. It requires accuracy instead of time. Basically it has a higher skill cap than the other HMGs which are more spray and pray. Liken it to the ARR when it had a super high spoolup time and no one could use it. They changed that super fast. The Burst HMG makes up for it in pure damage though, making it the Heavy equivalent of a tactical weapon. Like the scrambler or Tac AR but without the ability to spam shots due to the forced burst pause. If you revise it as you suggested then the Burst HMG becomes an HMG that forces a pause and can only be used in ADS which, as you may recognize, is not the way to go in CQC. Hence, it becomes worthless. Edit note: I won't lie though -- I am surprised by how much range the Burst HMG has...even if it was shortened it would still do it's job.
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.01.20 03:45:00 - [64] - Quote based on my experiences with the burst HMG, it seems more like an oversized shotgun than a tactical rifle. nothing would force you to ADS with the burst HMG in CQC - besides, the current state of the burst HMG results in the first half of your shots hitting nothing unless at extreme close range vs other heavies. What would be your opinion on retaining the 'no accuracy gain through shooting' aspect i proposed earlier, but with equal or slightly better hipfire accuracy (when compared to the beginning accuracy of regular HMG)? Ofcourse, also maintaining significantly improved accuracy while ADS. It would only be fair, after all, that the burst HMG gets a slight nerf along with the other HMGs, as running into someone using a burst HMG should be survivable - even if you dont kill them you should atleast be able to run away. This way then can either remain mobile to chase targets or strafe close up, and still do ridiculous ammounts of damage if aimed well.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 539	Posted - 2015.01.20 04:34:00 - [65] - Quote That is also a fair analogy - it functions a bit like a shotgun. Like a shotgun you have to hit -- if you miss you do no damage. Accuracy is required. Shotguns less so because people tend to put it right in your back where as Burst HMGs have some range so strafing becomes a factor. But as you said - the current state of the Burst HMG does result in half not hitting unless at close range. Double unless -- you are accurate. If your accuracy is high you can get the full burst in and BLAP the crap outta whatever. I will be honest, I don't know how much accuracy the burst HMG gets during a burst. A blue tag would have to confirm that. As such I cannot have a fair opinion on how an overall basic stability buff/firing nerf combo would affect it. It all depends on how HMG accuracy gains work. When the scrambler first came out everyone thought it gained heat per shot. Then we realized it was time spent firing. The same could be said for the HMGs. Do they gain accuracy per shot fired? Or time spent firing? If it is shot fired then your question means making the burst HMG overall less accurate. If it is time spent firing then your question means making the burst HMG overall more accurate. So I can only /shrug and say, 'I don't know' to that. I agree running into any HMG should be survivable at CQC if you are in a position to, and have the time to, run. Of the HMGs, due to the fact that the Burst takes the most skill to use it, mechanically speaking, is the easiest to escape from. However, HMG user skill can bring this chance down to nil, and of course the assault variant is just plain silly so it is easy to escape that thing. On the surface, as someone who uses the burst mainly because it keeps my aiming skills up, as opposed to the standard, I would say it seems reasonable. However, I am hardly the authority on HMGs. I forge as much as I HMG, and I have only been a heavy (as in my main suit played) for a bit over a year and a half, as opposed to some people who have been heavies for a bit over forever.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6620	Posted - 2015.01.20 08:53:00 - [66] - Quote A lot of the problems with the HMG stem from two things: 1. It benefits greatly from aim assist. I've tested it. I also tend to run HMGs and forges as weapon of choice. 2. I've noticed that the higher the RoF the worse hit detection with the weapon is. So HMGs will fail to damage strafing dancers. This seems to be the same problem the duvolle and small blaster turret has. Aim assist is really the only way it's viable. I remember the HMG being a monster, though not undefeatable between 1200-1800 RPM without aim assist. Right now aim assist is what's making it viable as a weapon. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 540	Posted - 2015.01.20 09:46:00 - [67] - Quote I'm not sure about that. I do equally well with m/MB which has no AA as I do with controller. With all the variants of the HMG. So I'm not sure rpm affects damage applied as far as hit detection goes. Of course higher rpm guns generally have less stability than lower though, smg not withstanding. But assuming you are right Breakin, are you suggesting change have so they fire slower and do more damage per bullet at a rate that is the same or similar dps as to now?
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6620	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:03:00 - [68] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: I'm not sure about that. I do equally well with m/MB which has no AA as I do with controller. With all the variants of the HMG. So I'm not sure rpm affects damage applied as far as hit detection goes. Of course higher rpm guns generally have less stability than lower though, smg not withstanding. But assuming you are right Breakin, are you suggesting change have so they fire slower and do more damage per bullet at a rate that is the same or similar dps as to now? I think slowing them down, cutting a bit of DPS off the top then removing AA. Then restore the old heavy damage mods. That would make up for hit detection futziness. I play m/kb too. I always wondered what the crying about the HMG was all about. Turned on AA and voila. Instant KD spike that sustained well beyond the first match. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 541	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:08:00 - [69] - Quote HDmg mods required to make hmgs viable? That's a bit of a nerf to shield heavies don't you think? Also, why remove AA when other guns get it? O.o
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6620	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:41:00 - [70] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: HDmg mods required to make hmgs viable? That's a bit of a nerf to shield heavies don't you think? Also, why remove AA when other guns get it? O.o (Aa doesn't work with m/kb, on or off doesn't matter, it's off) Because the difference between aa on and aa off is inordinate. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 541	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:46:00 - [71] - Quote Agreed. The AA is huge. I find it less so with HMgs tbh though. My CR on the other hand - omg AA /drool
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6621	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:52:00 - [72] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Agreed. The AA is huge. I find it less so with HMgs tbh though. My CR on the other hand - omg AA /drool That's because HMG dispersion is huge. It wouldn't have to be as huge without AA. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 546	Posted - 2015.01.21 04:09:00 - [73] - Quote Wait - you are saying that AA lowers dispersion? I don't understand. Why do you assert that?
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6643	Posted - 2015.01.21 11:28:00 - [74] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Wait - you are saying that AA lowers dispersion? I don't understand. Why do you assert that? Aim assist isn't reticle magnetism, it's bullet magnetism. A higher percentage of your shots will hit the target within your dispersion range than they would otherwise. It's the difference between having an assault filling 25% of your reticle and thus taking 15% of the potential DPS and having that assault eat 50-75% of your potential DPS. Aim assist jumps up the numbers higher before the reticle tightens, so focusing down on a long burst is even more effective. You lose a lot of fire without the AA. If you're used to using a DS3 at all, try a few matches without AA on and try a few with AA on. you'll se what I mean. It won't help if you swap from mouse to DS3 if you're better with a mouse, because the inputs are thoroughly dissimilar. If you have a xim play a few games without it, then reboot with it connected and try again with AA toggled on. I guarantee you will see a major variation, and it kinda pisses me off. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 551	Posted - 2015.01.22 04:11:00 - [75] - Quote That's a very huge assertion. I run a DS unless I'm forge gunning or laser rifle'ing in which case I mouse. I have run with AA off and on, and with the HMG I have not seen a definite difference. I see a massive difference with other guns of course. However, AA can be programmed to do what you are saying it is sure. I'm just not sure it is. If you are correct then yes, taking off AA with no other HMG changes would make it so that no one ever felt the HMG was OP again. We would need a blue tag to confirm this though.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1813	Posted - 2015.01.22 04:37:00 - [76] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: EDIT: Generic Racism Argument: Why does FG make heavies slower but HMG doesnt? Stop being racist CCP! It does not make it slower its just the animation making it look that way. The same argument has been had about many weapons on many suits. As far as the heavy goes. The problem is more with the HMG and this is a tough thing to crack. The real problem with nerfing it is hit detection problems across the game as well as lag stand to leave it very under powered against many popular play styles. Personally I do not believe the problem with the HMG can be fixed while hit detection is in its current state.
HOLY PERFECTION G.L.O.R.Y General Tso's Alliance 10	Posted - 2015.01.22 05:47:00 - [77] - Quote Check out my forum on heavys need to be buffed. It sort of relates to yours and would be worth looking at and commenting. GO BIG OR GO HOME!
DRT99 Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.01.24 17:09:00 - [78] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Of the HMGs, due to the fact that the Burst takes the most skill to use it, mechanically speaking, is the easiest to escape from. However, HMG user skill can bring this chance down to nil Based on my experiences with the burst so far, it seems accuracy is gained much faster during the burst, and resets on the next burst. With these changes burst HMG becomes far more powerful when in ADS - less ammo wasted and less heat generated per kill at medium range. It remains the most skill intensive HMG, but that skill is (IMO) slightly more rewarded
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6002	Posted - 2015.01.25 04:28:00 - [79] - Quote If mechanical changes prove to be too much to ask, a straight nerf to Damage and/or Range would probably be an excellent start. Or perhaps we could find a happy medium for dispersion, somewhere between today's arguably too easy "no effort needed" pattern and yesterday's arguably too difficult "laser-beam" pattern. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 50	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:23:00 - [80] - Quote Been using militia HMG on a militia minmatar heavy... with only a rep and a recharger. Still feels dirty.

Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 4575	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:49:00 - [81] - Quote I was thinking spool up time like the RR that way it's still good but doesn't insta kill everything. Scouts now have to wait a bit to uncloak and use a weapon so I could see something like spool up time working but idk I'm just a random merc. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 51	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:55:00 - [82] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: It does not make it slower its just the animation making it look that way. The same argument has been had about many weapons on many suits. Just looked again, FG definitely slows down while being charged, 100% speed reduction for one variant, so theres definitely code for it, and its values can definitely be changed Heimdallr69 wrote: I was thinking spool up time like the RR that way it's still good but doesn't insta kill everything. Scouts now have to wait a bit to uncloak and use a weapon so I could see something like spool up time working but idk I'm just a random merc. I think this would be pretty unpopular - basically the only way it would fly is if aiming down sites span up the barrel without firing.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6412	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:58:00 - [83] - Quote I'm with you ^, but I don't run HMG. Breaking Stuff (who does) seemed to think that damage reduction would be a better approach than spool-up time. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 641	Posted - 2015.02.06 06:47:00 - [84] - Quote Personally I am for range changes. The really rage inducing thing, for me, is getting melted by an HMG -- or on the other end, how much of a **** I feel like when I melt someone -- at 30 meters almost as fast as at 10.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5964	Posted - 2015.02.06 18:40:00 - [85] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Personally I am for range changes. The really rage inducing thing, for me, is getting melted by an HMG -- or on the other end, how much of a **** I feel like when I melt someone -- at 30 meters almost as fast as at 10. Falls off very quickly after that. How many HMG kills have you gotten at 40m, and were any of those solo or were you just finishing people who were already on death's door? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 653	Posted - 2015.02.07 02:30:00 - [86] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Personally I am for range changes. The really rage inducing thing, for me, is getting melted by an HMG -- or on the other end, how much of a **** I feel like when I melt someone -- at 30 meters almost as fast as at 10. Falls off very quickly after that. How many HMG kills have you gotten at 40m, and were any of those solo or were you just finishing people who were already on death's door? Yeah, I know the HMG has a very fast fall off. I mentioned in a few other threads how the rate of damage fall off is a hidden stat on guns. But I tend to play my sentinel close to the belt, as in within 15-20 meters. A lot of my arguments and a healthy chunk of my opinion on the heavy is based upon the dispersion of the HMG (as you have no doubt noticed in my posts.) At greater range the dispersion would reduce the number of bullets hitting significantly as well as reduce the damage per bullet. However, lately I have been playing around in a MinAss because it + CR is op and it's fun killing people better than my actual skill allows. And I have noticed that I get caught out and killed at like 30 something meters -- and it's not a slow death. I melt about 85-90% as fast at that range as I do at 15. Which is a complete incongruity to me. I then switched to my sent and tried shooting at people I would normally not waste time taking shots at when I should be running for cover before they range rifle me down. And found myself getting kills on full health opponents, some of which had a lot of HP, at ranges that surprised me. So it implies that the dispersion on an hmg does NOT make bullets go at diagonal angles but infact makes them shoot strait ahead at a variety of starting positions. Like this. ========== <\|. ========== ========== when I thought it fired more like this / / / / <\| - - - \ \ \ \ Cone Ascii art FAIL. (I sux) But if it makes any sense -- and it works like the 1st picture then I must redefine my opinion on the HMG.


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