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HMG Balance Proposal - No Direct nerfs.

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Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 539	Posted - 2015.01.19 00:17:00 - [61] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: The 'stuttering' movement wasnt really intentional. simply how my proposal would (granted, unintentionally) affect the burst HMG. I thought about this briefly, and I came up with a revision id like peoples thoughts on: Burst HMG has no slowdown while firing, but is horrifically inacurate (less accurate than current HMGs when they start shooting) and does not gain accuracy during the burst. In exchange, ADS offers significantly improved accuracy, but at the cost of ADS movement speed. Also, what is everyones thought about having the slowdown affect apply to a reduced degree while moving backwards? This would ease some of the earlier concerns about 'fight or flight'. Then the Burst HMG would be useless against pretty much any suit with any sort of speed (so basically any suit except other heavies.) It is already the only variant that requires any skill to use -- so I still don't see why it would need a slowdown or how this would help the situation.
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.01.20 02:45:00 - [62] - Quote How would that nerf the burst HMG? If anything, its a buff, as the inaccuracy helps hit people that are strafing, and the accuracy while ADSed would help kill harder targets at mid range.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 539	Posted - 2015.01.20 03:20:00 - [63] - Quote Because aiming down sights with an HMG doesn't work on a close target that is moving ANY direction except strait towards you or backwards. Since 99% of the time your target is moving at some angle, the ADS slowdown in aiming will make it so your Burst HMG won't keep up as far as damage application. Even if you raise your ADS sensitivity higher, you are still looking at a smaller narrower view window. Imagine using a light weapon, and when your opponent gets into CQC you go from hipfire to ADS while they are strafing much faster than you. How well that would work for you? :( Burst HMG is designed around the pause in firing. Inaccuracy means that you apply damage to a wider area. So you are more likely to hit, but less likely to do appreciable damage. Meanwhile the target is damaging you constantly. This is the HMG's combat philosophy, High constant damage over a wide area. It emphasizes time spent firing over accuracy. The burst HMG's combat design is extremely high damage in a small area with what amounts to a cooldown. It requires accuracy instead of time. Basically it has a higher skill cap than the other HMGs which are more spray and pray. Liken it to the ARR when it had a super high spoolup time and no one could use it. They changed that super fast. The Burst HMG makes up for it in pure damage though, making it the Heavy equivalent of a tactical weapon. Like the scrambler or Tac AR but without the ability to spam shots due to the forced burst pause. If you revise it as you suggested then the Burst HMG becomes an HMG that forces a pause and can only be used in ADS which, as you may recognize, is not the way to go in CQC. Hence, it becomes worthless. Edit note: I won't lie though -- I am surprised by how much range the Burst HMG has...even if it was shortened it would still do it's job.
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.01.20 03:45:00 - [64] - Quote based on my experiences with the burst HMG, it seems more like an oversized shotgun than a tactical rifle. nothing would force you to ADS with the burst HMG in CQC - besides, the current state of the burst HMG results in the first half of your shots hitting nothing unless at extreme close range vs other heavies. What would be your opinion on retaining the 'no accuracy gain through shooting' aspect i proposed earlier, but with equal or slightly better hipfire accuracy (when compared to the beginning accuracy of regular HMG)? Ofcourse, also maintaining significantly improved accuracy while ADS. It would only be fair, after all, that the burst HMG gets a slight nerf along with the other HMGs, as running into someone using a burst HMG should be survivable - even if you dont kill them you should atleast be able to run away. This way then can either remain mobile to chase targets or strafe close up, and still do ridiculous ammounts of damage if aimed well.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 539	Posted - 2015.01.20 04:34:00 - [65] - Quote That is also a fair analogy - it functions a bit like a shotgun. Like a shotgun you have to hit -- if you miss you do no damage. Accuracy is required. Shotguns less so because people tend to put it right in your back where as Burst HMGs have some range so strafing becomes a factor. But as you said - the current state of the Burst HMG does result in half not hitting unless at close range. Double unless -- you are accurate. If your accuracy is high you can get the full burst in and BLAP the crap outta whatever. I will be honest, I don't know how much accuracy the burst HMG gets during a burst. A blue tag would have to confirm that. As such I cannot have a fair opinion on how an overall basic stability buff/firing nerf combo would affect it. It all depends on how HMG accuracy gains work. When the scrambler first came out everyone thought it gained heat per shot. Then we realized it was time spent firing. The same could be said for the HMGs. Do they gain accuracy per shot fired? Or time spent firing? If it is shot fired then your question means making the burst HMG overall less accurate. If it is time spent firing then your question means making the burst HMG overall more accurate. So I can only /shrug and say, 'I don't know' to that. I agree running into any HMG should be survivable at CQC if you are in a position to, and have the time to, run. Of the HMGs, due to the fact that the Burst takes the most skill to use it, mechanically speaking, is the easiest to escape from. However, HMG user skill can bring this chance down to nil, and of course the assault variant is just plain silly so it is easy to escape that thing. On the surface, as someone who uses the burst mainly because it keeps my aiming skills up, as opposed to the standard, I would say it seems reasonable. However, I am hardly the authority on HMGs. I forge as much as I HMG, and I have only been a heavy (as in my main suit played) for a bit over a year and a half, as opposed to some people who have been heavies for a bit over forever.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6620	Posted - 2015.01.20 08:53:00 - [66] - Quote A lot of the problems with the HMG stem from two things: 1. It benefits greatly from aim assist. I've tested it. I also tend to run HMGs and forges as weapon of choice. 2. I've noticed that the higher the RoF the worse hit detection with the weapon is. So HMGs will fail to damage strafing dancers. This seems to be the same problem the duvolle and small blaster turret has. Aim assist is really the only way it's viable. I remember the HMG being a monster, though not undefeatable between 1200-1800 RPM without aim assist. Right now aim assist is what's making it viable as a weapon. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 540	Posted - 2015.01.20 09:46:00 - [67] - Quote I'm not sure about that. I do equally well with m/MB which has no AA as I do with controller. With all the variants of the HMG. So I'm not sure rpm affects damage applied as far as hit detection goes. Of course higher rpm guns generally have less stability than lower though, smg not withstanding. But assuming you are right Breakin, are you suggesting change have so they fire slower and do more damage per bullet at a rate that is the same or similar dps as to now?
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6620	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:03:00 - [68] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: I'm not sure about that. I do equally well with m/MB which has no AA as I do with controller. With all the variants of the HMG. So I'm not sure rpm affects damage applied as far as hit detection goes. Of course higher rpm guns generally have less stability than lower though, smg not withstanding. But assuming you are right Breakin, are you suggesting change have so they fire slower and do more damage per bullet at a rate that is the same or similar dps as to now? I think slowing them down, cutting a bit of DPS off the top then removing AA. Then restore the old heavy damage mods. That would make up for hit detection futziness. I play m/kb too. I always wondered what the crying about the HMG was all about. Turned on AA and voila. Instant KD spike that sustained well beyond the first match. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 541	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:08:00 - [69] - Quote HDmg mods required to make hmgs viable? That's a bit of a nerf to shield heavies don't you think? Also, why remove AA when other guns get it? O.o
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6620	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:41:00 - [70] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: HDmg mods required to make hmgs viable? That's a bit of a nerf to shield heavies don't you think? Also, why remove AA when other guns get it? O.o (Aa doesn't work with m/kb, on or off doesn't matter, it's off) Because the difference between aa on and aa off is inordinate. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 541	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:46:00 - [71] - Quote Agreed. The AA is huge. I find it less so with HMgs tbh though. My CR on the other hand - omg AA /drool
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6621	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:52:00 - [72] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Agreed. The AA is huge. I find it less so with HMgs tbh though. My CR on the other hand - omg AA /drool That's because HMG dispersion is huge. It wouldn't have to be as huge without AA. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 546	Posted - 2015.01.21 04:09:00 - [73] - Quote Wait - you are saying that AA lowers dispersion? I don't understand. Why do you assert that?
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6643	Posted - 2015.01.21 11:28:00 - [74] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Wait - you are saying that AA lowers dispersion? I don't understand. Why do you assert that? Aim assist isn't reticle magnetism, it's bullet magnetism. A higher percentage of your shots will hit the target within your dispersion range than they would otherwise. It's the difference between having an assault filling 25% of your reticle and thus taking 15% of the potential DPS and having that assault eat 50-75% of your potential DPS. Aim assist jumps up the numbers higher before the reticle tightens, so focusing down on a long burst is even more effective. You lose a lot of fire without the AA. If you're used to using a DS3 at all, try a few matches without AA on and try a few with AA on. you'll se what I mean. It won't help if you swap from mouse to DS3 if you're better with a mouse, because the inputs are thoroughly dissimilar. If you have a xim play a few games without it, then reboot with it connected and try again with AA toggled on. I guarantee you will see a major variation, and it kinda pisses me off. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 551	Posted - 2015.01.22 04:11:00 - [75] - Quote That's a very huge assertion. I run a DS unless I'm forge gunning or laser rifle'ing in which case I mouse. I have run with AA off and on, and with the HMG I have not seen a definite difference. I see a massive difference with other guns of course. However, AA can be programmed to do what you are saying it is sure. I'm just not sure it is. If you are correct then yes, taking off AA with no other HMG changes would make it so that no one ever felt the HMG was OP again. We would need a blue tag to confirm this though.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1813	Posted - 2015.01.22 04:37:00 - [76] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: EDIT: Generic Racism Argument: Why does FG make heavies slower but HMG doesnt? Stop being racist CCP! It does not make it slower its just the animation making it look that way. The same argument has been had about many weapons on many suits. As far as the heavy goes. The problem is more with the HMG and this is a tough thing to crack. The real problem with nerfing it is hit detection problems across the game as well as lag stand to leave it very under powered against many popular play styles. Personally I do not believe the problem with the HMG can be fixed while hit detection is in its current state.
HOLY PERFECTION G.L.O.R.Y General Tso's Alliance 10	Posted - 2015.01.22 05:47:00 - [77] - Quote Check out my forum on heavys need to be buffed. It sort of relates to yours and would be worth looking at and commenting. GO BIG OR GO HOME!
DRT99 Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.01.24 17:09:00 - [78] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Of the HMGs, due to the fact that the Burst takes the most skill to use it, mechanically speaking, is the easiest to escape from. However, HMG user skill can bring this chance down to nil Based on my experiences with the burst so far, it seems accuracy is gained much faster during the burst, and resets on the next burst. With these changes burst HMG becomes far more powerful when in ADS - less ammo wasted and less heat generated per kill at medium range. It remains the most skill intensive HMG, but that skill is (IMO) slightly more rewarded
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6002	Posted - 2015.01.25 04:28:00 - [79] - Quote If mechanical changes prove to be too much to ask, a straight nerf to Damage and/or Range would probably be an excellent start. Or perhaps we could find a happy medium for dispersion, somewhere between today's arguably too easy "no effort needed" pattern and yesterday's arguably too difficult "laser-beam" pattern. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 50	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:23:00 - [80] - Quote Been using militia HMG on a militia minmatar heavy... with only a rep and a recharger. Still feels dirty.

Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 4575	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:49:00 - [81] - Quote I was thinking spool up time like the RR that way it's still good but doesn't insta kill everything. Scouts now have to wait a bit to uncloak and use a weapon so I could see something like spool up time working but idk I'm just a random merc. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 51	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:55:00 - [82] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: It does not make it slower its just the animation making it look that way. The same argument has been had about many weapons on many suits. Just looked again, FG definitely slows down while being charged, 100% speed reduction for one variant, so theres definitely code for it, and its values can definitely be changed Heimdallr69 wrote: I was thinking spool up time like the RR that way it's still good but doesn't insta kill everything. Scouts now have to wait a bit to uncloak and use a weapon so I could see something like spool up time working but idk I'm just a random merc. I think this would be pretty unpopular - basically the only way it would fly is if aiming down sites span up the barrel without firing.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6412	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:58:00 - [83] - Quote I'm with you ^, but I don't run HMG. Breaking Stuff (who does) seemed to think that damage reduction would be a better approach than spool-up time. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 641	Posted - 2015.02.06 06:47:00 - [84] - Quote Personally I am for range changes. The really rage inducing thing, for me, is getting melted by an HMG -- or on the other end, how much of a **** I feel like when I melt someone -- at 30 meters almost as fast as at 10.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5964	Posted - 2015.02.06 18:40:00 - [85] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Personally I am for range changes. The really rage inducing thing, for me, is getting melted by an HMG -- or on the other end, how much of a **** I feel like when I melt someone -- at 30 meters almost as fast as at 10. Falls off very quickly after that. How many HMG kills have you gotten at 40m, and were any of those solo or were you just finishing people who were already on death's door? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 653	Posted - 2015.02.07 02:30:00 - [86] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Personally I am for range changes. The really rage inducing thing, for me, is getting melted by an HMG -- or on the other end, how much of a **** I feel like when I melt someone -- at 30 meters almost as fast as at 10. Falls off very quickly after that. How many HMG kills have you gotten at 40m, and were any of those solo or were you just finishing people who were already on death's door? Yeah, I know the HMG has a very fast fall off. I mentioned in a few other threads how the rate of damage fall off is a hidden stat on guns. But I tend to play my sentinel close to the belt, as in within 15-20 meters. A lot of my arguments and a healthy chunk of my opinion on the heavy is based upon the dispersion of the HMG (as you have no doubt noticed in my posts.) At greater range the dispersion would reduce the number of bullets hitting significantly as well as reduce the damage per bullet. However, lately I have been playing around in a MinAss because it + CR is op and it's fun killing people better than my actual skill allows. And I have noticed that I get caught out and killed at like 30 something meters -- and it's not a slow death. I melt about 85-90% as fast at that range as I do at 15. Which is a complete incongruity to me. I then switched to my sent and tried shooting at people I would normally not waste time taking shots at when I should be running for cover before they range rifle me down. And found myself getting kills on full health opponents, some of which had a lot of HP, at ranges that surprised me. So it implies that the dispersion on an hmg does NOT make bullets go at diagonal angles but infact makes them shoot strait ahead at a variety of starting positions. Like this. ========== <\|. ========== ========== when I thought it fired more like this / / / / <\| - - - \ \ \ \ Cone Ascii art FAIL. (I sux) But if it makes any sense -- and it works like the 1st picture then I must redefine my opinion on the HMG.


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