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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
522
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Posted - 2015.01.17 00:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
I gotta go with Fox here. If there is a speed penalty when not moving it'll pretty much kill the HMG and most heavies. When we stop shooting to move we need to move -- we move slow enough as it is...
Movement speed reduction to ADS level when hip firing is totally acceptable. It'll have the added bonus of getting casual heavies killed faster too -- as they are now slower and easier to shoot down (increased incoming damage.) A reasonable hit to both offense and defense.
Turn speed reduction is unreasonable though. |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
525
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 03:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
I also want to ask -- how do you imagine these changes affecting Assault HMG and Burst HMG? |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
527
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 23:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't think it can work like Paper Rock Sissors. Heavy>Ass>Sc>Hea
It will always be a case of Paper Rock Shotgun. Hence our current nerf buff cycle.
Dust IS designed to be Environment+Weaponry+Equipment+Teammates=Combat Dogma. The idea that 1 frame type beats another is...narrow I guess I would say. it oversimplifies the complexity of the game which in turn drops context from the equation leading to imbalance.
Let me clarify my question about HMG alternates.
1. Would you expect a movement slowdown effect to be applied to the Assault HMG/Burst HMGs when they are used?
Assault HMG really isn't that good. The problem isn't that it is lackluster up close. It's an extended range HMG, so that is to be expected. It's just that the range at which it is effective is a bit narrow and comes up rarely. Essentially the instances where a heavy will be at the right range to use said Assault HMG are far and few between. So no one loads it out for that. If it had more effective range then maybe it would be equipped more often.
Add to that the Assault is a mid range weapon -- which implies more open areas. So a slowdown effect would be further detrimental to those situations.
Take the burst. The HMG that requires the most skill to use. Why would you create a stutter effect? You don't see many Burst HMGs -- and I'll be honest -- the Burst HMG is much better than the standard right now. Even after the last change. I say change because everyone thinks it was nerfed when it was not. So they stopped using it. It just requires more skill to use now.
But add a stutter effect to it, and you'll be unable to aim with it, so I don't see how a slowdown would help there.
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
539
|
Posted - 2015.01.19 00:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
DRT 99 wrote:The 'stuttering' movement wasnt really intentional. simply how my proposal would (granted, unintentionally) affect the burst HMG.
I thought about this briefly, and I came up with a revision id like peoples thoughts on:
Burst HMG has no slowdown while firing, but is horrifically inacurate (less accurate than current HMGs when they start shooting) and does not gain accuracy during the burst. In exchange, ADS offers significantly improved accuracy, but at the cost of ADS movement speed.
Also, what is everyones thought about having the slowdown affect apply to a reduced degree while moving backwards? This would ease some of the earlier concerns about 'fight or flight'.
Then the Burst HMG would be useless against pretty much any suit with any sort of speed (so basically any suit except other heavies.) It is already the only variant that requires any skill to use -- so I still don't see why it would need a slowdown or how this would help the situation. |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
539
|
Posted - 2015.01.20 03:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Because aiming down sights with an HMG doesn't work on a close target that is moving ANY direction except strait towards you or backwards. Since 99% of the time your target is moving at some angle, the ADS slowdown in aiming will make it so your Burst HMG won't keep up as far as damage application. Even if you raise your ADS sensitivity higher, you are still looking at a smaller narrower view window.
Imagine using a light weapon, and when your opponent gets into CQC you go from hipfire to ADS while they are strafing much faster than you. How well that would work for you? :(
Burst HMG is designed around the pause in firing. Inaccuracy means that you apply damage to a wider area. So you are more likely to hit, but less likely to do appreciable damage. Meanwhile the target is damaging you constantly. This is the HMG's combat philosophy, High constant damage over a wide area. It emphasizes time spent firing over accuracy.
The burst HMG's combat design is extremely high damage in a small area with what amounts to a cooldown. It requires accuracy instead of time. Basically it has a higher skill cap than the other HMGs which are more spray and pray.
Liken it to the ARR when it had a super high spoolup time and no one could use it. They changed that super fast. The Burst HMG makes up for it in pure damage though, making it the Heavy equivalent of a tactical weapon. Like the scrambler or Tac AR but without the ability to spam shots due to the forced burst pause.
If you revise it as you suggested then the Burst HMG becomes an HMG that forces a pause and can only be used in ADS which, as you may recognize, is not the way to go in CQC. Hence, it becomes worthless.
Edit note: I won't lie though -- I am surprised by how much range the Burst HMG has...even if it was shortened it would still do it's job. |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
539
|
Posted - 2015.01.20 04:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
That is also a fair analogy - it functions a bit like a shotgun. Like a shotgun you have to hit -- if you miss you do no damage. Accuracy is required. Shotguns less so because people tend to put it right in your back where as Burst HMGs have some range so strafing becomes a factor.
But as you said - the current state of the Burst HMG does result in half not hitting unless at close range. Double unless -- you are accurate. If your accuracy is high you can get the full burst in and BLAP the crap outta whatever.
I will be honest, I don't know how much accuracy the burst HMG gets during a burst. A blue tag would have to confirm that. As such I cannot have a fair opinion on how an overall basic stability buff/firing nerf combo would affect it. It all depends on how HMG accuracy gains work.
When the scrambler first came out everyone thought it gained heat per shot. Then we realized it was time spent firing. The same could be said for the HMGs. Do they gain accuracy per shot fired? Or time spent firing? If it is shot fired then your question means making the burst HMG overall less accurate. If it is time spent firing then your question means making the burst HMG overall more accurate. So I can only /shrug and say, 'I don't know' to that.
I agree running into any HMG should be survivable at CQC if you are in a position to, and have the time to, run. Of the HMGs, due to the fact that the Burst takes the most skill to use it, mechanically speaking, is the easiest to escape from. However, HMG user skill can bring this chance down to nil, and of course the assault variant is just plain silly so it is easy to escape that thing.
On the surface, as someone who uses the burst mainly because it keeps my aiming skills up, as opposed to the standard, I would say it seems reasonable. However, I am hardly the authority on HMGs. I forge as much as I HMG, and I have only been a heavy (as in my main suit played) for a bit over a year and a half, as opposed to some people who have been heavies for a bit over forever. |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
540
|
Posted - 2015.01.20 09:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'm not sure about that. I do equally well with m/MB which has no AA as I do with controller. With all the variants of the HMG. So I'm not sure rpm affects damage applied as far as hit detection goes. Of course higher rpm guns generally have less stability than lower though, smg not withstanding.
But assuming you are right Breakin, are you suggesting change have so they fire slower and do more damage per bullet at a rate that is the same or similar dps as to now? |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
541
|
Posted - 2015.01.20 10:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
HDmg mods required to make hmgs viable? That's a bit of a nerf to shield heavies don't you think?
Also, why remove AA when other guns get it? O.o |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
541
|
Posted - 2015.01.20 10:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Agreed. The AA is huge. I find it less so with HMgs tbh though. My CR on the other hand - omg AA /drool |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
546
|
Posted - 2015.01.21 04:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Wait - you are saying that AA lowers dispersion? I don't understand. Why do you assert that? |
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
551
|
Posted - 2015.01.22 04:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
That's a very huge assertion. I run a DS unless I'm forge gunning or laser rifle'ing in which case I mouse. I have run with AA off and on, and with the HMG I have not seen a definite difference. I see a massive difference with other guns of course. However, AA can be programmed to do what you are saying it is sure. I'm just not sure it is.
If you are correct then yes, taking off AA with no other HMG changes would make it so that no one ever felt the HMG was OP again. We would need a blue tag to confirm this though. |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
641
|
Posted - 2015.02.06 06:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Personally I am for range changes. The really rage inducing thing, for me, is getting melted by an HMG -- or on the other end, how much of a **** I feel like when I melt someone -- at 30 meters almost as fast as at 10. |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
653
|
Posted - 2015.02.07 02:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Imp Smash wrote:Personally I am for range changes. The really rage inducing thing, for me, is getting melted by an HMG -- or on the other end, how much of a **** I feel like when I melt someone -- at 30 meters almost as fast as at 10. Falls off very quickly after that. How many HMG kills have you gotten at 40m, and were any of those solo or were you just finishing people who were already on death's door?
Yeah, I know the HMG has a very fast fall off. I mentioned in a few other threads how the rate of damage fall off is a hidden stat on guns.
But I tend to play my sentinel close to the belt, as in within 15-20 meters.
A lot of my arguments and a healthy chunk of my opinion on the heavy is based upon the dispersion of the HMG (as you have no doubt noticed in my posts.) At greater range the dispersion would reduce the number of bullets hitting significantly as well as reduce the damage per bullet.
However, lately I have been playing around in a MinAss because it + CR is op and it's fun killing people better than my actual skill allows. And I have noticed that I get caught out and killed at like 30 something meters -- and it's not a slow death. I melt about 85-90% as fast at that range as I do at 15. Which is a complete incongruity to me. I then switched to my sent and tried shooting at people I would normally not waste time taking shots at when I should be running for cover before they range rifle me down. And found myself getting kills on full health opponents, some of which had a lot of HP, at ranges that surprised me.
So it implies that the dispersion on an hmg does NOT make bullets go at diagonal angles but infact makes them shoot strait ahead at a variety of starting positions. Like this.
==========
<|. ==========
==========
when I thought it fired more like this
/ /
/ /
<| - - -
\ \
\ \
Cone Ascii art FAIL. (I sux) But if it makes any sense -- and it works like the 1st picture then I must redefine my opinion on the HMG. |
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