DUST Search - HMG Balance Proposal

Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:

1: this also makes them open to RE " scrubs " as you put it because most heavies face more then one opponent during conflicts .

2: This might work for those who travel in packs or squads but this idea will kill solo players who play that role .

3: Every answer to issues shouldn't be , " squad up " or " get gud ."

4: There are so many other things that I can think of but I'm not trying to take over your post .

5: I believe with the heating mechanic that's in place one has to constantly be reminded of overheating and that's fine because that causes one to depend more on their sidearm but delays added is kinda overkill .

6: For the most part and most of you know this , if you see packs of heavies ... their in a squad , see heavies and logi combos , their in a squad .

7: Edit : If you think about it for the most part , the response time for a counter from a heavy is extremely long in relation to say the decloak and fire animation , heavies are slow in everything they do .


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DRT 99 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 4	Posted - 2015.01.16 05:32:00 - [1] - Quote So i recently returned to the game and i have noticed that heavies are monsters - now dont get me wrong i completely agree going 1 vs 1 with an HMG heavy at close range should be suicide but this is alittle over the top. Its getting to the point where the only way to play when heavies are around is to be behind them (with either rep tool or shotgun),become one of the RE frizbee scrubs, or get a heavy yourself. So i thought up (what i feel is) a decent way to nerf heavies while retaining that 'OH SH!T A HEAVY!' feeling. With that in mind: What this ISNT: -Nerf Heavies QQ -Nerf HMG DPS -Nerf Heavy HP What im proposing is a reduction to speed while firing an HMG - similar to charging up a forge gun (as well as potentially for a short while after firing - like 0.5s) They can still sprint and move normally while not firing. What this does is make heavies more area denial and less murder-machines, through a reduction in their ability to chase opponents down. This also makes them more vulnerable to certain weapons (MDs, REs, FGs, Snipers, etc) which i believe is a positive thing. Thoughts?
DRT 99 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 6	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:07:00 - [2] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: 1: this also makes them open to RE " scrubs " as you put it because most heavies face more then one opponent during conflicts . 2: This might work for those who travel in packs or squads but this idea will kill solo players who play that role . 3: Every answer to issues shouldn't be , " squad up " or " get gud ." 4: There are so many other things that I can think of but I'm not trying to take over your post . 5: I believe with the heating mechanic that's in place one has to constantly be reminded of overheating and that's fine because that causes one to depend more on their sidearm but delays added is kinda overkill . 6: For the most part and most of you know this , if you see packs of heavies ... their in a squad , see heavies and logi combos , their in a squad . 7: Edit : If you think about it for the most part , the response time for a counter from a heavy is extremely long in relation to say the decloak and fire animation , heavies are slow in everything they do . 1: They would also be more vulnerable to MDs, PLCs, FGs, Snipers, and literally anything when in the open. IMO at close range a FG / PLC shot taking out a heavy is a decent counter. Also, heavies should not be able to win 2v1 at equal skill levels and equal gear levels. 2:Solo players are already getting the short end of the stick. Bandwidth, Proto, squads, and many other features kill solo players - as a frequent solo player myself id rather see the game balanced and a new 'no squads' mode added, though a suppose dust may lack the playerbase for that. 3:Neither of these are in my OP. 4: Im interested in hearing them - lets keep a constructive conversation going. 5: The heat mechanism does nothing to adress how screwed you are in a 1v1 vs a heavy. Also (as said before) im not proposing a fire delay. 6: Not entirely true - a large part of the problem is the solo players who cap the point and then spam heavies to hold it. Dead giveaway is when theres 8+ heavies on a point in dom from one team. 7:all things equal, a heavy will win a 1 vs 1 gunfight at less than 40m against an assault. If the heavy is more skilled the engagement will be closer and more one sided. If the assault is more skilled or extremely lucky, they MAYBE stand a chance. Heavies are slow in everything they do except kill. My proposal simply makes them slower at CHASING targets, not killing them.
DRT 99 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 9	Posted - 2015.01.17 02:21:00 - [3] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: open to be strafed and SG , NK and RE'd by scouts or any suit with speed like a logi Because heavies shouldnt have counters? Also when did logis become fast? someone please explain this to me. Fox Gaden wrote: My only serious concern with this proposal is the "potential" 0.5 second of slow speed after you stop firing (Snip) It would be the Sprint Glitch all over again. In hindsight, that 0.5s was probably unecessary - and when you bring up the sprint glitch... shudders Fox Gaden wrote: It also makes sense that the Sentinel would be slowed while firing as they have to brace themselves against the kick of the HMG to keep it steady. This was actually my inspiration - and its already present on the FG so it should be easy to implement Imp Smash wrote: Movement speed reduction to ADS level when hip firing is totally acceptable Was in a rush and forgot to mention in the OP - ADS speed reduction and firing speed reduction wouldnt stack so theres no penalty to ADSing and Firing. Ill update the OP. Imp Smash wrote: Turn speed reduction is unreasonable though. 100% agreed
DRT 99 Unleashed Hybrid's 11	Posted - 2015.01.17 07:42:00 - [4] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: I also want to ask -- how do you imagine these changes affecting Assault HMG and Burst HMG? Assault HMG is already in need of alittle love - id say buff its damage a tiny bit and either a: keep the increased range and the slowdown b: same range as regular HMG but no / reduced slowdown As far as the burst HMG.... i suppose the heavy would be slowed down during the half second burst, which i suppose would lead to some awkward start/stop movement. From my experiences using the burst HMG so far, it honestly feels broken OP. I hate to say it, but perhaps the slowdown-after-shooting could apply exclusively to the burst HMG? This would lead to steady movement even between bursts. Again, the 0.5s i originally stated was just a ballpark figure to get things rolling, could just as easily be 0.2 or 0.3. Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Op please read what I said before you use my words to misquote me I did read what you said - however, having heavies more easily countered by shotguns and grenades was part of the solution
DRT 99 Unleashed Hybrid's 11	Posted - 2015.01.17 17:57:00 - [5] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: The only think wrong with the Assault HMG is that it needs a dispersion reduction to allow it to be effective about 10m farther out. If you judge the Assault HMG based on how it performs in CQC, then you are doing it wrong. It is a mid range weapon. I would rather have the recent heat buff on the Burst HMG reversed than have even a 0.3 second slowdown after I stop firing. Ive been using the assault HMG at medium range, and thats what im talking about - even in its intended range its ability to be outgunned by other weapons is matched only by the laser rifle at close range. It needs something OTHER than range, else why not just use a Rifle? Im not sure increasing burst HMG heat generation would do very much. It really doesnt matter how often you overheat if your target is dead before that. GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: you said it-" get a heavy yourself " This isnt a solution, weve been through this before and it didnt work: The only counter to tanks is tanks The only counter to Scouts is Scouts
DRT 99 Unleashed Hybrid's 12	Posted - 2015.01.17 20:26:00 - [6] - Quote GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: ASYMETRY is what makes DUST fun, intellect with experience beats asymetry. location dictates tactics, and direct counters along with indirect counters should be increased with additional content. balance is ephemeral given a change in map location. OMNI to advanced gear to counter, should be the community mantra. A heavy in the open is already easy prey, slowing them down will cause them to lurk in CQB even more. PS:it was nice to squad with you last night, welcome back, and good hunting wishes in the future. Asymetry is only fun when youre on the winning side. That being said, asymetry granted through POSITIONING is great - if you die to someone of equal skill and suit cost behind cover while youre in the open, you could have prevented that. you could have been in cover or stayed out of the open. Asymetry because someone in a suit equally / less expensive than yours with equal / lower skill than you has more HP and DPS and killed you because you didnt fit REs is not. Heavies in the open are already easy targets, the point isnt making them easier to kill in the open, its making them easier to avoid close up. Yes, i admit that this will lock heavies to CQC more than they are now - but is that a bad thing? More area denial, less mass murder. Likewise nice squadding with you, hope to see you around.
DRT 99 Unleashed Hybrid's 12	Posted - 2015.01.17 20:34:00 - [7] - Quote GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: Good games last night, and I look forward to seeing you back in game. I am an OMNI and I get frustrated with the typical resistant personalities that most QQ'ers express in the Nerf sub-culture. DUST is an asymetrical game, and I love it for that reason. Asymetry and balance aer unreconcilable, so we counter, but the counters are problematic in that location dictates application of the proper DPS profile. With that said, asymetry-can be trumped by intelligence paired with experience-thus the need to OMNI. A heavy in the open is my favorite prey, calling "heavy in the open" on comms is fun, chewing that heavy up is even better. Slowing them down will only lead to objective loading. Slowing everything down would help hit detection greatly, and I am a huge proponent. An across the board speed and a reflected damage reduction "balancing" cycle would be good. PS: I run a three KINCAT ammar-so in the open...lol By OMNI you mean youre skilled into multiple roles? I agree that some level of asymetry is good - one thing having a counter is excellent. Unfortunately, the only counter to heavies right now is a shotgun or knife to the back of the head or an RE / FG to the face. This proposal wouldnt change that, just make them slightly more vulnerable to those counters, while making facing a heavy less anti-fun for those without the counters, as running away and surviving is now more of a possibility. Edit: I noticed you were moving fast, also noticed that assault HMG. Respect the fact that you actually got it to work, never seems to do anything other than make loud noises when i use it.
DRT 99 Unleashed Hybrid's 12	Posted - 2015.01.18 08:23:00 - [8] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: DRT 99 wrote: Edit: I noticed you were moving fast, also noticed that assault HMG. Respect the fact that you actually got it to work, never seems to do anything other than make loud noises when i use it. On Line Harvest I can do as well with an Assault HMG as any other HMG. I can do well with it on Ashland as well. You need open spaces with sufficient cover scattered about so you can control range. If it had a bit more range it would be useful in a lot more circumstances. Your target needs to be ideally between 20m and 35m away. It sort of sucks in CQC, but since it is meant to be a medium range weapon I don't see a problem with that. You can still kill stuff close up, it just takes longer. Regular HMG still does excellent damage at those ranges - and i wouldnt be surprised if it outDPSed the assault at the majority of that range bracket. I simply didnt see a reason to use it over a rifle.
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.01.20 02:45:00 - [9] - Quote How would that nerf the burst HMG? If anything, its a buff, as the inaccuracy helps hit people that are strafing, and the accuracy while ADSed would help kill harder targets at mid range.
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.01.20 03:45:00 - [10] - Quote based on my experiences with the burst HMG, it seems more like an oversized shotgun than a tactical rifle. nothing would force you to ADS with the burst HMG in CQC - besides, the current state of the burst HMG results in the first half of your shots hitting nothing unless at extreme close range vs other heavies. What would be your opinion on retaining the 'no accuracy gain through shooting' aspect i proposed earlier, but with equal or slightly better hipfire accuracy (when compared to the beginning accuracy of regular HMG)? Ofcourse, also maintaining significantly improved accuracy while ADS. It would only be fair, after all, that the burst HMG gets a slight nerf along with the other HMGs, as running into someone using a burst HMG should be survivable - even if you dont kill them you should atleast be able to run away. This way then can either remain mobile to chase targets or strafe close up, and still do ridiculous ammounts of damage if aimed well.

DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 50	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:23:00 - [11] - Quote Been using militia HMG on a militia minmatar heavy... with only a rep and a recharger. Still feels dirty.
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 51	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:55:00 - [12] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: It does not make it slower its just the animation making it look that way. The same argument has been had about many weapons on many suits. Just looked again, FG definitely slows down while being charged, 100% speed reduction for one variant, so theres definitely code for it, and its values can definitely be changed Heimdallr69 wrote: I was thinking spool up time like the RR that way it's still good but doesn't insta kill everything. Scouts now have to wait a bit to uncloak and use a weapon so I could see something like spool up time working but idk I'm just a random merc. I think this would be pretty unpopular - basically the only way it would fly is if aiming down sites span up the barrel without firing.