What do you mean AV/HAVs need to be balances with other vehicles?

Dropships should not have the EHP of a tank.

LAVs are too tanky, they should be suicide vs. AV unless properly tanked (which I think three people who still play do)

We have no intent to shoehorn in an exact playstyle.

Players have been asking, "what is the role of the ADS", and to that I only have one answer, "we provide the sandbox, you play in it".

However, we can define some gameplay where the ADS should excel. Of course the Apache is the "blueprint" for the Close Combat Infantry suppression and/or Tank hunting, and the AC-130 for long range suppression.

A) First contact. ADS, being the most mobile unit, rapidly deploys two 2 man units on Objectives with uplinks, while the rest wait to spawn, or even 3-4 solo units. It can then reinforce weak spots and support infantry, that in turn supports the ADS against infantry AV.

B) Harass and Suppress enemy airforces by destroying recently delivered dropships on the ground

C) Destroy enemy HAVs - the firepower should be enough to to identify a hostile target, and take it out in a single run, even under light Anti-Air resistance. If an HAV is deployed in the middle of the map, the ADS should be able to take it out unless 2 Anti-Air units are defending it (give or take), if an HAV is deployed in the redzone and comes rumbling into battle, the ADS should be able to put a hurt on even the toughest Madrugar. If the ADS flies into a trap and 2 Small Turret gunners pop out with Forges or Swarms, the ADS should probably be destroyed.

D) Recon - Utilizing speed and equipping scanners to provide intel

E) Objective Suppression, stay out of the 175 meter lock range, at 300 out of Forge Range and pummel an objective or spawnpoint with missile fire/rail fire

F) All the Delta changes were intended to do was reduce the ADS's OP efficiency at almost everything, Now we can carefully bring tactically chosen efficiencies back.

These are a few playstyles that should work. I hear that the Incubus ROF is not enough currently to properly be able to do C). What is the effective ROF necessary at full skills, to be able to kill a fully skilled solo Madrugar in a "single" strafing run, or DPS necessary? Can it be done by Pilot alone? At 2 or 3 gunners, it should be relatively easy as you have invested 3 players to kill 1 in the HAV, the HAV should then have 2 Anti Air infantry to defend him. Tank players, where is your line, you don't want to be instapopped do you?

Please support your ROF/DPS proposals with the fits you are using and also the Madrugar/Gunnlogi you are attacking.

3) Forges are sniping even over 400m, I wrote that this is to cool for AV operators and suggested to intruduce some deviation in forge projectiles.

Every time someone pulls out swarms against an ads we have no warning of imminent impact, I understand tanks have a proximity explosive beeping warning, that is why I believe one simple and incredibly useful countermeasure that does not affect ads stats would be the introduction of a "lock warning" similar to most if not all modern aircraft. The swarm is not a random fire weapon and therefore it's lock should be detected as a precursor to impact.

This would also in fact help get rid of the problem of swarms not rendering as not only will swarmers be unable to have 2 volleys in the air before a pilot realises he is in for certain death, but also it will highlight potentially dangerous areas to pilots, allowing for more tactical gameplay between the av deterrent and the ads threat. Forge guns do not have a proximity warning as they are skilful and player targeted weapons. Having swarms that deal lethal damage without warning is similar to a heat seeking bolt pistol... A bolt pistol needs only 3 rounds to kill most medium tank frames, why would you allow such a ludicrously easy weapon to exist...

My second point is about ads manouverability

Lastly I feel that swarms need a slight tone down in terms of either maximum flight range or manouverability/speed aspects...

The afterburner claims to provide a 150% thrust increase yet swarms still catch up rather easily with an afterburner on in a dropship speeding away as fast as possible.

[...]
I agree that ADS (and NDS) manoeuvrability could do with some modification. Primarily, the issue is that when hit by AV the dropship bucks wildly requiring skill to regain control (depending on how violent the impulse effect is) and can quite often force a retreat after a single hit renders the DS (A or N, regardless) is incapable of steadying long enough to fire, because the next shot is inbound already.
[...]

Just a note about this point, as an ADS pilot, I would prefer the wild bucking of the ship STAY when getting hit by weapons that merit the behavior. I personally find it adds way more to the immersion and wouldn't be fun to have this removed. It adds risk to flying too close to the ground or to walls when AV might be present, and it gives even the militia variants of a weapon a CHANCE to take me out if he hits me at just the right angle to make me hit something in my surroundings.

I knew, but the community refused to propose ideas or numbers to affect the decision. Noone can be an expert in everything and I don't pretend to. However, thinking that my ability with the ADS or that I need to see something with my own eyes, to properly balance, is silly. You are the experts, you describe the problem and how to change it, or in this case, you admit there is a problem and propose ways to reduce the problem.

The reason we cannot define the problem with numbers is because, on paper, everything looks balanced. Our problem with flying, although sometimes over-dramatized, come from the real game experience.

For example, a one on one fight between an ADS and AV may look balanced on TTK and the ability to escape, but due to a multitude of issues such as hit detection with vehicles and Rendering problems, its difficult to accurately determine the situation.

nothing about your statistics also claim for the Jet Ramming that has become an issue for pilots. even though you have superior movement and speed, they can easily sneak up on you from above, as you cannot hear or see them until it is too late to react.

Numbers are only half the battle, to understand the game fully, you need to listen to the pilots personal experiences.

Getting out of lock range should be the priority, not outrunning the second volley. Outrunning swarms isn't something that should be a thing.

However, the counterpoint to that statement is that I had been hoping CCP would drop the swarm turn rate from 90 to 60, maybe 65/70. Maneuvering should be en route not at the target point. They should also chase the dropship itself not the last place they had direct line of sight then correct.

That way swarms become a skillshot weapon. IE the dropship pilots, tank and LAV drivers can deny you your shot by being skilled.

This makes swarms more useful at the longer lock ranges but problematic to pump rounds into a fast-maneuvering ADS on top of you. In short, a fight ensues rather than a mugging.

Pilots and anti-Pilots

some numbers are in.

Overall it seems that we successfully toned down the Assault Dropship power, and buffed the Dropship power.

Looking at dropships compared to other vehicles, we are fairly happy with how the Python is playing out right now.

There is a good solid spike of efficiency for the Small Blaster as well, correlating with the Grimsnes taking a leap upwards.

The Incubus is still very powerful but not as powerful as the Python.

The Myron is just not very good at all, and nothing changed with the increased EHP/PG/CAP and Turret changes.

Let's explore together simple ways to tweak these two.

Personally, not a fan of the rapid fire railgun turrets, please keep that in mind.

Also keep in mind that the ROF on railLAV's was reduced on purpose, due to infantry sniping.

Maybe a combination of increasing the Incubus bonus to ROF slightly, or simply removing the 70% rail turret inefficiency against vehicles and then increasing chargeup time rather than decreasing ROF to balance? Or heat?

On the Myron/Grimsnes, someone advocated more maneuverability without increased speed, sounds like a fine idea.

Experienced Myron pilots, what about it's fitting style or bonuses makes it so much worse than the Python.


(A similar question but off topic, the Gunnlogi is quite less efficient than the Madrugar, bonus points to explain why)


Appreciate the feedback

So after Delta came out, I've hardly touched my vehicle character. Why would I? There's nothing left that's even worth using it for. My Incubus V, Small Railgun V, Reload V, Prof V, Fitting OP V and Ammo V is completely useless now. Even though the bullshit bugs that I had to endure, auto-repeating lagging railgun of overheat?

Yet you give the Incubus a bonus to the WORST turret that could possibly go onto the front turret of an ADS. I've spent entire matches trying to only use an Ion Cannon on the front of my Incubus and It's so difficult to do it's not even worth my time. You can't kill vehicles, you can't kill infantry so what's it for?

Hell I've dropped more ISK on vehicles than 99% of the people who've played DUST will ever even see, yet you listen to the 10 day old character who's ****** militia tank I just killed? Thanks CCP.

Tanks are ****.
Dropships are ****.
LAVs are ****

Thanks

I have shield fitting skills maxed, but I don't have a competitive Myron fit.

The differences between the two fittings are:
- The Myron has worse armament (STD vs PRO)

I think we should also establish a few rules of thumb

Small Turrets

Blaster: Anti-Infantry
Railgun: Anti-Vehicle
Missiles: Dual Purpose

Current Best to Worst by Type

Anti Infantry
Pilot: Missiles, Blaster, Rails
Sidegunner - Dropship: Blaster, Missile, Rails
Sidegunner - ADS:Blaster, Missile, Rails

Anti Air
Pilot: Missiles, Rails, Blaster
Sidegunner - Dropship: Rails, Missile, Blaster
Sidegunner - ADS: Rails, Missile, Blaster

Anti Vehicle
Pilot: Missiles, Rails, Blaster
Sidegunner - Dropship: Rails, Missile, Blaster
Sidegunner - ADS: Rails, Missile, Blaster


Or something along those lines, to see if there are holes/unintended inefficiencies.

Feel free to edit this, or expand, this is just to get the discussion going, please don't go off the rails because of my selections.

Pilots and anti-Pilots

some numbers are in.

Overall it seems that we successfully toned down the Assault Dropship power, and buffed the Dropship power.

Looking at dropships compared to other vehicles, we are fairly happy with how the Python is playing out right now.

There is a good solid spike of efficiency for the Small Blaster as well, correlating with the Grimsnes taking a leap upwards.

The Incubus is still very powerful but not as powerful as the Python.

The Myron is just not very good at all, and nothing changed with the increased EHP/PG/CAP and Turret changes.

Let's explore together simple ways to tweak these two.

Personally, not a fan of the rapid fire railgun turrets, please keep that in mind.

Also keep in mind that the ROF on railLAV's was reduced on purpose, due to infantry sniping.

Maybe a combination of increasing the Incubus bonus to ROF slightly, or simply removing the 70% rail turret inefficiency against vehicles and then increasing chargeup time rather than decreasing ROF to balance? Or heat?

On the Myron/Grimsnes, someone advocated more maneuverability without increased speed, sounds like a fine idea.

Experienced Myron pilots, what about it's fitting style or bonuses makes it so much worse than the Python.


(A similar question but off topic, the Gunnlogi is quite less efficient than the Madrugar, bonus points to explain why)


Appreciate the feedback

Turret rotation is the same on a madrugar. If you run a blaster it rotates the fastest. Rails rotate slowest if I recall.

Turret type dictates tracking speed, not hull type.

Well not to be rude but you didn't read my entire post I said that it is not this type of rotation but it is how far up/down it is able to move it's cannon