Pilots and anti-Pilots

The Myron is just not very good at all, and nothing changed with the increased EHP/PG/CAP and Turret changes...


...(A similar question but off topic, the Gunnlogi is quite less efficient than the Madrugar, bonus points to explain why)


Appreciate the feedback

I do hope CCP Rattati is looking at this thread.

I'm still listening

I'm still listening

I'm still listening

I'm still listening

Honest answer. It entirely depends who you're talking to.

My opinion, it will take a bit of... how shall we say, time to explain.

The rail incubus got it in the butt... hard. I can say nothing more on that.

My next issue is this, the rocket incubus is still better than the python, here's why:

The rockets has a raw ROF of 1.20 seconds, let's take a look at what that is on the python:

Python Rof: 1.20-.18=1.08
incubus ROF: 1.20

It has a minimal ROF difference for the SP cost of a proto suit.

Next issue, despite being more resistant to most meta forms of AV, Python is still vastly outclassed by incubus:

You'll have to look at the below fits to see what I'm talking about.
My incubus fit
My python fit, I call her Laira

As it is right now, the incubus can fit all proto modules on low and high with level 4 armor optimization. You'll have to take into account protofits hasn't yet put the reduced PG/CPU of the turrets, which is why I put points into optimization, which aren't needed at all.

My issue is that no matter what I do, I cannot fit all proto modules on my python. No amount of fitting optimizations or vehicle shield optimization will help. Admittedly, I have shield OP at 3, but I didn't need more than 2.

Next issue at hand, despite the python being resistant to most forms of meta AV, the tank on the incubus more than makes up for it.

The regen on the incubus is instant, where on the python I have to wait a few seconds to get the regen kicking, admittedly it is more per second, but that 3-7 seconds my python is out of shields, she's screwed if a sniper shoots my unshielded hull (yes, light weaponry has full effect on shield ADS armor). the incubus does not have this issue.

An incubus may be slower, but by sinking SP into that skill that lowers the weight of plates (I don't remember the name), it can be lowered to 5%, which on an ADS is negligible.

My other issue is collision damage. We all know incubus can fly into walls without a problem sometimes, but do that crap with a python and you'll be singing "the roof is on fire" pretty quick. Especially on that God forsaken Gallente research facility, the collision is completely ridiculous on that map.

So my honest question to you is this. If you were a diehard pilot, which makes more sense to fly?

I still fly the python out of principle, but I think the evidence speaks for itself.

My honest answer to your above is this, I do have a personal agenda on this, but I do believe it is a well founded personal agenda.

I'm still listening

There is nothing to listen to anymore here.
ADS is still effective at taking out infantry, not so viable for taking out tanks anymore, but it should be like that. Tanks can't shhot up on a hovering dropship.

CCP Rattati, is it possible via a hotfix to attach nanohive resupply properties to a vehicle? Example being while a Eynx has a toon active it can provide resupply like a supply depot? Is something like that a client side adjustment? Also if possible can that property be attached to a active module?

Also, do we have code for firing from dropships without a client side update? I know that has been thrown around by other devs but we never seen anything of it.

CCP Rattati, I think it would be faster to go in game and get another player to lend you ADSs to experience it for yourself. Don't ask me because I'd charge you isk for each one.

Trying to balance the interactions between A and B while only having experience with A seems... difficult.

Yes, I would like to deploy a few tactical tweaks over next two weeks, concerning the viability of dropships.

Let's state a few data points.

1) Fact. The sky did not fall down, the ADS is not being instapopped all over the place, that much is clear. So swarm vs ADS does not need any specific attention. It's scarier for sure for pilots, but not untenable.

2) Small Blaster Turrets are better in Delta, our data shows that clearly

3) Incubus is less efficient than the Python, in effective kills per spawn, or K/S. (i.e. Shield better than Armor)

4) Myron is less efficient than the Grimsnes in K/S. (Shield better than Armor)

3 and 4a) K/S is not an absolute measure of dropship efficiency as they are used for different things, but they are still a useful metric. WP/S is another and ISK destroyed/ISK lost is the third. Any other smart metric that comes to mind?

3a) Can a veteran pilot please post indisputably competitive fits for all 4 dropships for us to study internally. Protofits link will do nicely.

4) Yet, people complain that the Python is worse than the Incubus, even after the rail ROF nerf.

Let's get to some more discussions.

Players have been asking, "what is the role of the ADS", and to that I only have one answer, "we provide the sandbox, you play in it". We have no intent to shoehorn in an exact playstyle. We have broadly defined the HAV Large Turrets to be "AV", and that's it. Same goes for the Dropships, they should be durable and slow, and be able to deliver their payload of a full squad to an objective while under fire, and while suppressing enemy infantry, basically a Huey.

However, we can define some gameplay where the ADS should excel. Of course the Apache is the "blueprint" for the Close Combat Infantry suppression and/or Tank hunting, and the AC-130 for long range suppression.

A) First contact. ADS, being the most mobile unit, rapidly deploys two 2 man units on Objectives with uplinks, while the rest wait to spawn, or even 3-4 solo units. It can then reinforce weak spots and support infantry, that in turn supports the ADS against infantry AV.

B) Harass and Suppress enemy airforces by destroying recently delivered dropships on the ground

C) Destroy enemy HAVs - the firepower should be enough to to identify a hostile target, and take it out in a single run, even under light Anti-Air resistance. If an HAV is deployed in the middle of the map, the ADS should be able to take it out unless 2 Anti-Air units are defending it (give or take), if an HAV is deployed in the redzone and comes rumbling into battle, the ADS should be able to put a hurt on even the toughest Madrugar. If the ADS flies into a trap and 2 Small Turret gunners pop out with Forges or Swarms, the ADS should probably be destroyed.

D) Recon - Utilizing speed and equipping scanners to provide intel

E) Objective Suppression, stay out of the 175 meter lock range, at 300 out of Forge Range and pummel an objective or spawnpoint with missile fire/rail fire

F) All the Delta changes were intended to do was reduce the ADS's OP efficiency at almost everything, Now we can carefully bring tactically chosen efficiencies back.

These are a few playstyles that should work. I hear that the Incubus ROF is not enough currently to properly be able to do C). What is the effective ROF necessary at full skills, to be able to kill a fully skilled solo Madrugar in a "single" strafing run, or DPS necessary? Can it be done by Pilot alone? At 2 or 3 gunners, it should be relatively easy as you have invested 3 players to kill 1 in the HAV, the HAV should then have 2 Anti Air infantry to defend him. Tank players, where is your line, you don't want to be instapopped do you?

Please support your ROF/DPS proposals with the fits you are using and also the Madrugar/Gunnlogi you are attacking.

Let's get one thing straight, this is not about me. Period.

Yes, I would like to deploy a few tactical tweaks over next two weeks, concerning the viability of dropships.

Let's state a few data points.

1) Fact. The sky did not fall down, the ADS is not being instapopped all over the place, that much is clear. So swarm vs ADS does not need any specific attention. It's scarier for sure for pilots, but not untenable.

2) Small Blaster Turrets are better in Delta, our data shows that clearly

3) Incubus is less efficient than the Python, in effective kills per spawn, or K/S. (i.e. Shield better than Armor)

4) Myron is less efficient than the Grimsnes in K/S. (Shield better than Armor)

3 and 4a) K/S is not an absolute measure of dropship efficiency as they are used for different things, but they are still a useful metric. WP/S is another and ISK destroyed/ISK lost is the third. Any other smart metric that comes to mind?

3a) Can a veteran pilot please post indisputably competitive fits for all 4 dropships for us to study internally. Protofits link will do nicely.

4) Yet, people complain that the Python is worse than the Incubus, even after the rail ROF nerf.

Let's get to some more discussions.

Players have been asking, "what is the role of the ADS", and to that I only have one answer, "we provide the sandbox, you play in it". We have no intent to shoehorn in an exact playstyle. We have broadly defined the HAV Large Turrets to be "AV", and that's it. Same goes for the Dropships, they should be durable and slow, and be able to deliver their payload of a full squad to an objective while under fire, and while suppressing enemy infantry, basically a Huey.

However, we can define some gameplay where the ADS should excel. Of course the Apache is the "blueprint" for the Close Combat Infantry suppression and/or Tank hunting, and the AC-130 for long range suppression.

A) First contact. ADS, being the most mobile unit, rapidly deploys two 2 man units on Objectives with uplinks, while the rest wait to spawn, or even 3-4 solo units. It can then reinforce weak spots and support infantry, that in turn supports the ADS against infantry AV.

B) Harass and Suppress enemy airforces by destroying recently delivered dropships on the ground

C) Destroy enemy HAVs - the firepower should be enough to to identify a hostile target, and take it out in a single run, even under light Anti-Air resistance. If an HAV is deployed in the middle of the map, the ADS should be able to take it out unless 2 Anti-Air units are defending it (give or take), if an HAV is deployed in the redzone and comes rumbling into battle, the ADS should be able to put a hurt on even the toughest Madrugar. If the ADS flies into a trap and 2 Small Turret gunners pop out with Forges or Swarms, the ADS should probably be destroyed.

D) Recon - Utilizing speed and equipping scanners to provide intel

E) Objective Suppression, stay out of the 175 meter lock range, at 300 out of Forge Range and pummel an objective or spawnpoint with missile fire/rail fire

F) All the Delta changes were intended to do was reduce the ADS's OP efficiency at almost everything, Now we can carefully bring tactically chosen efficiencies back.

These are a few playstyles that should work. I hear that the Incubus ROF is not enough currently to properly be able to do C). What is the effective ROF necessary at full skills, to be able to kill a fully skilled solo Madrugar in a "single" strafing run, or DPS necessary? Can it be done by Pilot alone? At 2 or 3 gunners, it should be relatively easy as you have invested 3 players to kill 1 in the HAV, the HAV should then have 2 Anti Air infantry to defend him. Tank players, where is your line, you don't want to be instapopped do you?

Please support your ROF/DPS proposals with the fits you are using and also the Madrugar/Gunnlogi you are attacking.

It's about trying to achieve balance, the job you were tasked with.

If you took offence to my post, know that it was not written with the intent as an insult. I was merely suggesting a method of getting a better view of the "bigger picture". And you are putting effort into seeing a "bigger picture" to achieve a more balanced game; I respect that.

You were right in that the ADS rate of fire bonus was oddly high. But you lacked the ADS experience to know how adversely it would affect ADS's effectiveness against other vehicles. Having experience with not only ADS, but all items in Dust514 will go a long way in helping you balance items.

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Increasing the rate of fire bonus isn't the only solution to increasing ADS effectiveness against vehicles. For example, you could tweak the damage efficiencies against vehicles; although I am strongly against that idea because it's counter intuitive.

Yes, I would like to deploy a few tactical tweaks over next two weeks, concerning the viability of dropships.

Let's state a few data points.

1) Fact. The sky did not fall down, the ADS is not being instapopped all over the place, that much is clear. So swarm vs ADS does not need any specific attention. It's scarier for sure for pilots, but not untenable.

2) Small Blaster Turrets are better in Delta, our data shows that clearly

3) Incubus is less efficient than the Python, in effective kills per spawn, or K/S. (i.e. Shield better than Armor)

4) Myron is less efficient than the Grimsnes in K/S. (Shield better than Armor)

3 and 4a) K/S is not an absolute measure of dropship efficiency as they are used for different things, but they are still a useful metric. WP/S is another and ISK destroyed/ISK lost is the third. Any other smart metric that comes to mind?

3a) Can a veteran pilot please post indisputably competitive fits for all 4 dropships for us to study internally. Protofits link will do nicely.

4) Yet, people complain that the Python is worse than the Incubus, even after the rail ROF nerf.

Let's get to some more discussions.

Players have been asking, "what is the role of the ADS", and to that I only have one answer, "we provide the sandbox, you play in it". We have no intent to shoehorn in an exact playstyle. We have broadly defined the HAV Large Turrets to be "AV", and that's it. Same goes for the Dropships, they should be durable and slow, and be able to deliver their payload of a full squad to an objective while under fire, and while suppressing enemy infantry, basically a Huey.

However, we can define some gameplay where the ADS should excel. Of course the Apache is the "blueprint" for the Close Combat Infantry suppression and/or Tank hunting, and the AC-130 for long range suppression.

A) First contact. ADS, being the most mobile unit, rapidly deploys two 2 man units on Objectives with uplinks, while the rest wait to spawn, or even 3-4 solo units. It can then reinforce weak spots and support infantry, that in turn supports the ADS against infantry AV.

B) Harass and Suppress enemy airforces by destroying recently delivered dropships on the ground

C) Destroy enemy HAVs - the firepower should be enough to to identify a hostile target, and take it out in a single run, even under light Anti-Air resistance. If an HAV is deployed in the middle of the map, the ADS should be able to take it out unless 2 Anti-Air units are defending it (give or take), if an HAV is deployed in the redzone and comes rumbling into battle, the ADS should be able to put a hurt on even the toughest Madrugar. If the ADS flies into a trap and 2 Small Turret gunners pop out with Forges or Swarms, the ADS should probably be destroyed.

D) Recon - Utilizing speed and equipping scanners to provide intel

E) Objective Suppression, stay out of the 175 meter lock range, at 300 out of Forge Range and pummel an objective or spawnpoint with missile fire/rail fire

F) All the Delta changes were intended to do was reduce the ADS's OP efficiency at almost everything, Now we can carefully bring tactically chosen efficiencies back.

These are a few playstyles that should work. I hear that the Incubus ROF is not enough currently to properly be able to do C). What is the effective ROF necessary at full skills, to be able to kill a fully skilled solo Madrugar in a "single" strafing run, or DPS necessary? Can it be done by Pilot alone? At 2 or 3 gunners, it should be relatively easy as you have invested 3 players to kill 1 in the HAV, the HAV should then have 2 Anti Air infantry to defend him. Tank players, where is your line, you don't want to be instapopped do you?

Please support your ROF/DPS proposals with the fits you are using and also the Madrugar/Gunnlogi you are attacking.

Finally!!!!!!

A) I think this shouldn't be a function of the ADS. It should be an attack vehicle with no passenger support save a gunner. Apache's job is to kill, Huey's is to transport.

B and C) that's going to necessitate returning things to how they were. Or how about this:

Here's the thing, you can't have a gun be both AV and AP. That's the large blaster with no dispersion. So what you need to do is specialize each drop ship with a role. Python is about infantry suppression with missiles. Therefore, give them a splash radius bonus instead of ROF. Say 10% per level, like the old ROF skill. This ups a 2.5m splash to 3.75m, which if I remember correctly is about the range of a standard nanohives resupply for visual aid. Now it can kill infantry easy, but suffers against vehicles, lacking the DPS to break their tank. Now the incubus could be the vehicle buster. In order to bust vehicles in a single run, you either need to return the ROF bonus and unnerf small rails to their old ROF, or you need to give incubi a large (~12.5%) bonus to hybrid damage. It needs high DPs to bust tanks in a single run. There is no way around it.

D) Again, ADS are Apache's. They don't do recon, they attack. You call them in after the recon ship provides the Intel. I'd say a return of SLAVs would fill this role nicely.

E) Again, this would be the Python's role. The incubus could do it, but the Python would do it better. With a splash radius bonus, it makes suppression much easier.

F) And again, if you want them to kill tanks in a single pass, we need to way ramp up their DPs, which means they will slaughter infantry. There's no way to stop this. My suggestions mean that the high DPs one will have some difficulty engaging infantry, but in the end, the high DPs needed to bust tanks is high enough to rip apart infantry.

Here are some of my favorite fits:

Myron: Decent passive buffer. Strong active tank. Only problem (as I have said before) is that the hardener visual affect blocks a gunners view too much, making it extremely difficult to fight back AV. If it could be removed from turrets or (more likely) toned down and made more transparent, it would help a lot.

Active Grimsnes: Haven't tried this, was just theorycrafting but it looks pretty good. Extra shielding in a pinch, armor hardener increases reps to about 167ehp/s. 5767ehp before reps. However, it also has the problem of hardeners blocking gunners' view.

Python: The tried and true. Best fit imo. I have noticed other pilots using a complex light shield booster over the light extender and have been wanting to try it myself. I've considered changing my tactic to always have an AB running and retreat when it's recharging, using the booster as emergency ehp.

The "Rattati Semapi Noticed Me": Haven't really had much success as far as team usage, but I still think it's worth keeping around. Maybe one day it will. (Though I still want a PG reduction for the mCRU to fit a better AB, among other reasons)

Incubus: Best Incubus fit. Can fit all proto turrets. (Requires armor fitting 3 with basic AB, 4 for ADV AB).

I'll post a proper reply later today, I have classes for now.

One thing I'd wish you'd consider is introducing turret variants to fill specific roles.

Some ideas:

Accelerated Missile: AV specialized; high direct damage, low splash damage and radius, faster with longer range for air-to-air.

Fragmented Missiles: AI specialized; larger radius and moderate splash damage, lower direct damage, shorter range (150-175 perhaps).

Scattered Blaster: For LAVs and tanks; very high rof and moderate RoF (highest dps), short range with considerable dispersion, fast rotation speed.

Condensed Blaster: For DSs; low RoF with higher damage per shot (still lower DPS than above), longer range and tighter dispersion, very low rotation speed (near rail level, to prevent use on LAVs, DS gunners don't need to turn as fast because of the longer ranges they'll be engaging and their limited turning anyway).

[Rails TBD]