I wish CCP would adopt more of Eve's fitting design: less emphasis on hp and more emphasis on resist, more active mod choices, more defined separation between shield and armor fitting philosophies, etc.

I'm in the middle of making a huge post that will have pretty much everything vehicle mods need, so we'll see how that turns out.

Yes, I would like to deploy a few tactical tweaks over next two weeks, concerning the viability of dropships.

Let's state a few data points.

1) Fact. The sky did not fall down, the ADS is not being instapopped all over the place, that much is clear. So swarm vs ADS does not need any specific attention. It's scarier for sure for pilots, but not untenable.

2) Small Blaster Turrets are better in Delta, our data shows that clearly

3) Incubus is less efficient than the Python, in effective kills per spawn, or K/S. (i.e. Shield better than Armor)

4) Myron is less efficient than the Grimsnes in K/S. (Shield better than Armor)

3 and 4a) K/S is not an absolute measure of dropship efficiency as they are used for different things, but they are still a useful metric. WP/S is another and ISK destroyed/ISK lost is the third. Any other smart metric that comes to mind?

3a) Can a veteran pilot please post indisputably competitive fits for all 4 dropships for us to study internally. Protofits link will do nicely.

4) Yet, people complain that the Python is worse than the Incubus, even after the rail ROF nerf.

Let's get to some more discussions.

Players have been asking, "what is the role of the ADS", and to that I only have one answer, "we provide the sandbox, you play in it". We have no intent to shoehorn in an exact playstyle. We have broadly defined the HAV Large Turrets to be "AV", and that's it. Same goes for the Dropships, they should be durable and slow, and be able to deliver their payload of a full squad to an objective while under fire, and while suppressing enemy infantry, basically a Huey.

However, we can define some gameplay where the ADS should excel. Of course the Apache is the "blueprint" for the Close Combat Infantry suppression and/or Tank hunting, and the AC-130 for long range suppression.

A) First contact. ADS, being the most mobile unit, rapidly deploys two 2 man units on Objectives with uplinks, while the rest wait to spawn, or even 3-4 solo units. It can then reinforce weak spots and support infantry, that in turn supports the ADS against infantry AV.

B) Harass and Suppress enemy airforces by destroying recently delivered dropships on the ground

C) Destroy enemy HAVs - the firepower should be enough to to identify a hostile target, and take it out in a single run, even under light Anti-Air resistance. If an HAV is deployed in the middle of the map, the ADS should be able to take it out unless 2 Anti-Air units are defending it (give or take), if an HAV is deployed in the redzone and comes rumbling into battle, the ADS should be able to put a hurt on even the toughest Madrugar. If the ADS flies into a trap and 2 Small Turret gunners pop out with Forges or Swarms, the ADS should probably be destroyed.

D) Recon - Utilizing speed and equipping scanners to provide intel

E) Objective Suppression, stay out of the 175 meter lock range, at 300 out of Forge Range and pummel an objective or spawnpoint with missile fire/rail fire

F) All the Delta changes were intended to do was reduce the ADS's OP efficiency at almost everything, Now we can carefully bring tactically chosen efficiencies back.

These are a few playstyles that should work. I hear that the Incubus ROF is not enough currently to properly be able to do C). What is the effective ROF necessary at full skills, to be able to kill a fully skilled solo Madrugar in a "single" strafing run, or DPS necessary? Can it be done by Pilot alone? At 2 or 3 gunners, it should be relatively easy as you have invested 3 players to kill 1 in the HAV, the HAV should then have 2 Anti Air infantry to defend him. Tank players, where is your line, you don't want to be instapopped do you?

Please support your ROF/DPS proposals with the fits you are using and also the Madrugar/Gunnlogi you are attacking.

Yes, I would like to deploy a few tactical tweaks over next two weeks, concerning the viability of dropships.

Let's state a few data points.

1) Fact. The sky did not fall down, the ADS is not being instapopped all over the place, that much is clear. So swarm vs ADS does not need any specific attention. It's scarier for sure for pilots, but not untenable.

2) Small Blaster Turrets are better in Delta, our data shows that clearly

3) Incubus is less efficient than the Python, in effective kills per spawn, or K/S. (i.e. Shield better than Armor)

4) Myron is less efficient than the Grimsnes in K/S. (Shield better than Armor)

3 and 4a) K/S is not an absolute measure of dropship efficiency as they are used for different things, but they are still a useful metric. WP/S is another and ISK destroyed/ISK lost is the third. Any other smart metric that comes to mind?

3a) Can a veteran pilot please post indisputably competitive fits for all 4 dropships for us to study internally. Protofits link will do nicely.

4) Yet, people complain that the Python is worse than the Incubus, even after the rail ROF nerf.

Let's get to some more discussions.

Players have been asking, "what is the role of the ADS", and to that I only have one answer, "we provide the sandbox, you play in it". We have no intent to shoehorn in an exact playstyle. We have broadly defined the HAV Large Turrets to be "AV", and that's it. Same goes for the Dropships, they should be durable and slow, and be able to deliver their payload of a full squad to an objective while under fire, and while suppressing enemy infantry, basically a Huey.

However, we can define some gameplay where the ADS should excel. Of course the Apache is the "blueprint" for the Close Combat Infantry suppression and/or Tank hunting, and the AC-130 for long range suppression.

A) First contact. ADS, being the most mobile unit, rapidly deploys two 2 man units on Objectives with uplinks, while the rest wait to spawn, or even 3-4 solo units. It can then reinforce weak spots and support infantry, that in turn supports the ADS against infantry AV.

B) Harass and Suppress enemy airforces by destroying recently delivered dropships on the ground

C) Destroy enemy HAVs - the firepower should be enough to to identify a hostile target, and take it out in a single run, even under light Anti-Air resistance. If an HAV is deployed in the middle of the map, the ADS should be able to take it out unless 2 Anti-Air units are defending it (give or take), if an HAV is deployed in the redzone and comes rumbling into battle, the ADS should be able to put a hurt on even the toughest Madrugar. If the ADS flies into a trap and 2 Small Turret gunners pop out with Forges or Swarms, the ADS should probably be destroyed.

D) Recon - Utilizing speed and equipping scanners to provide intel

E) Objective Suppression, stay out of the 175 meter lock range, at 300 out of Forge Range and pummel an objective or spawnpoint with missile fire/rail fire

F) All the Delta changes were intended to do was reduce the ADS's OP efficiency at almost everything, Now we can carefully bring tactically chosen efficiencies back.

These are a few playstyles that should work. I hear that the Incubus ROF is not enough currently to properly be able to do C). What is the effective ROF necessary at full skills, to be able to kill a fully skilled solo Madrugar in a "single" strafing run, or DPS necessary? Can it be done by Pilot alone? At 2 or 3 gunners, it should be relatively easy as you have invested 3 players to kill 1 in the HAV, the HAV should then have 2 Anti Air infantry to defend him. Tank players, where is your line, you don't want to be instapopped do you?

Please support your ROF/DPS proposals with the fits you are using and also the Madrugar/Gunnlogi you are attacking.

A) I point to Dergle and Boss SobanRe as the optimal way an ADS should behave. Dergle flies, Boss guns, and together they do far more damage than a solo pilot can do. I'd go as far to say as remove the side guns and make the front turret a gunner seat, if that is feasible. If you want to keep transport capability, I'd say leave in the passenger seats. But the most effective ADS I've seen is a pilot and gunner. We should emphasize that.

D) Shoehorning isn't necessarily a bad thing. The right tool for the right job. Sure, an ADS can fly over and see whats on the other side of that hill, but his specialization isn't to scout, it is to attack. I feel like that would be giving the ADS too many hats to wear at once. I feel like we should focus on the assault part of assault dropship. As an infantry example, we don't want sentinels to do recon, or scouts to do frontal assaults. Each suit has its job, while not doing so well in other jobs.

More damage is a good suggestion as well for tank busting, however keep in mind that the bonus applies to both rails and blasters. If we go with my suggestion of 12.5% hybrid damage per level, that's a total increase of 62.5% damage on blasters. That would be a monster against infantry, especially once blasters get their necessary tweak to dispersion. We could add dispersion to rails, but then that defeats the purpose of them being long range. A difficult problem for sure, each solution having its pros and cons.

As far as how much DPS needed to bust a Maddy, a Maddy has base 5200 helth all told. A single gun run should last 2-4 seconds. Let's assume 3 for the purposes of this experiment. 5200/3 is 1733.33 DPS to bust in a single run, assuming no reppers and such. I can point out that in Charlie, a maxed out Incubus pilot with a maxed out gunner could down a Maddy in a single pass, so we would need to get comparable DPS to Charlie to realize this vision.

I like the idea of python be anti- infantry and incubus be anti- vehicle. If the HAVs aren't anti infantry (which sounds ridiculous), some vehicle needs to be. Otherwise what's the point?

I am in favor or shoehorning because I want to have a job to do and I want to do it well. I do not want to be mediocre at everything in my ADS.

Clearly you've never encountered an incubus duo in PC. Well, at least pre-Charlie.

A vehicle should be better than a dropsuit in firepower, but require multiple people to man. I honestly feel like vehicles are in this state of being unnecessary, since they do nothing a dropsuit can't do. But they should be as effective as multiple dropsuits, while taking multiple dropsuits to man. Also, this means we can make it take multiple AV to shoot down.

To Grey: I feel like ADS were supposed to be Apache's, but were gone about it wrong. A true attack aerial vehicle would be a light aircraft, basically a LAV in the sky. As it stands, we need a dedicated aerial attack craft. ADS can fill that role, at least until Legion comes out and we can create new content. As far as incubi being the answer to everything in the sky, yeah that's the point. The incubus is the vehicle killer, to include dropships. ADS should be Apache's sacrificing transport for more attack abilities. SDS are Huey's, door guns to support infantry, but mainly focused on getting troops from one place to another quickly. scouting is easily done with refurbished SLAVs. Everything has it's place.

Pt. 1

A: This is probably the primary purpose of ADSs. I frequently deploy tactical assets (teammates) in specific locations (usually up high) along with giving whatever equipment support is needed as well. They give me ground support and I give them arial support. It works amazingly and we regularly keep air- and vehicle-superority. I've also theory crafted an attack squad of 2 ADSs and 4 ground infantry (6 total) that all move and attack together, but I've never had anyone willing to follow the plan for long.

B: This bothers me a bit because it sounds like you're insinuating ADSs aren't meant for air-to-air combat. ADSs (specifically a rail Incubus) should be the absolute best counter to other ADSs (mainly because they can take away the ADSs main defense: running away). But yes, ADSs should rule the skys as well as rule the high ground by destroying enemy equipment.

C: This is also bothering. Being able to take out a tank in a "single run" is serious firepower. If we define "single run" Gëñ30s, that means tanks are utterly screwed against an ADS in every case. Currently, I think the way things are now are fine: the ADS can easily whittle down a tank without support, but the tank also has the opportunity to run to a redline or under cover. Anything more would be a serious blow to tankers that I don't support.

You are also mistaken about how many AVers it takes to effectively fend off an ADS. It only takes 1 of any kind of AV to "defeat" an ADS (defeat = prevent from doing what it would normally do without interference, usually forcing the ADS to flee immediately and return later to fight the AV). It is impossible for an ADS to kill a tank while taking fire from a single swarmer or forge, almost without regard to tier of AV. A Python will die in about 10sec (4x 1.05s for lock, 4s for reload, 1-2sec for travel time) to a single equally tiered swarmer, so unless you think an ADS can kill a tank in that time it's not going to happen.

D: This is another role that the ADS is perfect for and executes perfectly. The high vantage point is perfect for viewing a whole battlefield and assessing where vehicles are or troops are moving to and from and its firepower and quickness allow it to address certain threats by itself. In PC I regularly call out enemy tank positions for tankers and AVers as well as DS drop locations and possible destinations before they arrive.

E: You're not hitting anything, even a tank, at 175m with a missile. Much less could you hit anything at 300m with a small rail. Typical max ADS engagement range, even with rails, is 80--90m, and that's with horrible efficiency.

F: Let's categorize these roles as things that are innate to ADSs and what is dependent on modules:

Native: A (transport), D (recon)

Fitted: A (close-air support/ AI), B (Anti-air), C (AV)


For AI, AA, and AV, the utility and effectiveness of the ADS lies in its turret. Defensive mods for ADSs now are only to provide enough ehp to surviving escaping AV as it is almost impossible to fight back AV unless you know exactly where the AVer is and deal with them immediately. Utility mods (mCRUs, scanners, ammo, etc) are almost never used because they take up too much fitting (either PG/CPU or just a slot) to make up for what they take away. It's all in the turret.

As such, turrets should then be altered to define what role the ADS is going to play. The best way I can think of doing this would be to (re)introduce turret variants with these specific roles in mind (as well as considering the roles of LAVs, tanks, and regular DSs). I've already mentioned above as to what missiles and blasters could look like, as for rails, I thought of these earlier:

Compressed Rail: low RoF, high damage, moderate heating, long range, low tracking/rotation. Anti-tank at sniping ranges, possibly anti-air by LAVs or DSs as well. Perhaps consider giving an efficacy nerf against infantry targets.

Burst Rail: fires a burst of 3-5 rail shots, charges up for each burst, fairly quick heat up (3-4 bursts max), high dispersion and low range (about 100m accurately against tanks and the long side of a DS), slight AI usage at closer range.

shields are still far too resilient to swarms/forges. poor armour tankers crumble whereas shields are far too powerful and our proficiencies are pretty much wasted. a small tweak to the damage profiles would help the final balance. instead +/- 20% bring it to 10% and it'll help increase armor vehicle survivability more and make it a touch easier to take down shield based vehicles.

between chat mates we'll take down 10 armor vehicles over 1 or none shield. only time a shield vehicle seems to go down is via pilot error (flying into a building, reversing into a structure and gettign stuck ect

What do you mean AV/HAVs need to be balances with other vehicles?

Dropships should not have the EHP of a tank.

LAVs are too tanky, they should be suicide vs. AV unless properly tanked (which I think three people who still play do)