DUST Search - Tanks and Dropships take the same damage. Explain CCP

True Adamance wrote:

Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:

im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other?

A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not?

Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be.

Can I ask you this question : If AV hits tanks and dropships for the same damage. Yet one can have vastly more HP than the other does this seem like a fair balance or not?

No its not fair, but neither vehicle is designed to fulfil the others role.

The advantage of an HAV would in this case be its armoured hull, which should absorb fire. The cost being mobility and lack of ability to engage close range targets both aerial and on ground.

The advantage of a Dropship should be its mobility, fire power, and aerial nature. The cost being less durability.

To be fair I cannot argue Dropship semantics with you, so I defer to you on dropship matters, but I'm not going to agree that ADS are useless. They are the most dangerous (but not OP) thing on most maps right now.

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Espartoi Orkz Clan 254	Posted - 2014.06.25 03:55:00 - [121] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Which we adapted to by having choppers not stop moving. Most times when an RPG hits, the chopper is usually stationary, such as during a pick up or drop off. As well, those choppers are made for hauling, and are thus big and bulky. Much easier to hit than the Cobra attack chopper the Marine Corps uses. Usually when an attack chopper is hit, its from multiple RPGs fired at them at once, usually from different points. And yet helos are still shot down by a man portable launchers. Also like you said just because US marines learned their lessons doesn't mean dirt poor third world countries (which are more likely to get shot with a javelin) are likely to still get shot down from everything such as a 40 mm grenade launcher, TOW missile. Javelins, and Stingers (try dodging the newest ones flares do not work against them and they still don't give a lock on signal against their targets) So IWS have you tried to dodge one?. How was the experience?. Shoot Smash Stomp Chop. Am a Giant Realistic Flying Tiger.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11148	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:04:00 - [122] - Quote Espartoi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Which we adapted to by having choppers not stop moving. Most times when an RPG hits, the chopper is usually stationary, such as during a pick up or drop off. As well, those choppers are made for hauling, and are thus big and bulky. Much easier to hit than the Cobra attack chopper the Marine Corps uses. Usually when an attack chopper is hit, its from multiple RPGs fired at them at once, usually from different points. And yet helos are still shot down by a man portable launchers. Also like you said just because US marines learned their lessons doesn't mean dirt poor third world countries (which are more likely to get shot with a javelin) are likely to still get shot down from everything such as a 40 mm grenade launcher, TOW missile. Javelins, and Stingers (try dodging the newest ones flares do not work against them and they still don't give a lock on signal against their targets) So IWS have you tried to dodge one?. How was the experience?. I think thats essentially a pointless questions to ask. Have you? Do you know its not easy as ***? " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III*
Apocalyptic Destroyer RestlessSpirits 0	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:13:00 - [123] - Quote You've obviously have never flown a Dropship before, as my Incubus has 3000 armor, yet can be taken out by a HMG. You don't see me complaining about tanks not taking HMG damage so please, stop your whining. ~R1P
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11151	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:17:00 - [124] - Quote Apocalyptic Destroyer wrote: You've obviously have never flown a Dropship before, as my Incubus has 3000 armor, yet can be taken out by a HMG. You don't see me complaining about tanks not taking HMG damage so please, stop your whining. What kind of idiot do you have to be to let that happen......... " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Espartoi Orkz Clan 257	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:20:00 - [125] - Quote I have a doubt. Since when this issue has been troubling?. Shoot Smash Stomp Chop. Am a Giant Realistic Flying Tiger.
Mike De Luca Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 117	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:20:00 - [126] - Quote Ok, let's see here.....maneuvers quickly IN THE AIR, takes 3 forge shots min(not sure on swarms, working on skilling into those and minmando now), almost guaranteed to hit an afterburner n be at or close to the ceiling in their redline before 3rd shot hits, and if played properly can absolutely dominate an open maps...which is most of them....yeah, so underpowered, Whining about av? Use gunners to spot em. Av needs to use others to guarantee taking you down 90% of the time, don't you think those 2 extra sets of eyes might help? No? You'd just rather whine on here in the VERY rare event you weren't paying attention n got taken out solo? Ok, makes sense. All me n most people will agree to is turning down collision damage from tapping buildings n sobering up the rdv driver. And I will say it agin slowly....TAAAAPPIIIING, not being slammed into a building by an attack, being rammed by another ds, taps, with the force equivalent to a normal landing. TL;DR They're fine except for collision damage what i think of when charging fg
The True Inferno Myrmidon Syndicate 6	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:53:00 - [127] - Quote Swarms should have different lock-on times for each vehicle, DS should take the longest(dew to the fact they re flying) and tanks should take the least(as they're on the ground). There should also be different types of swarms that are specailised to different vehicles with bonuses and penalties to each vehicle for damage range and lock-on time. Forge guns should have a slite dip for there projectiles when aiming above 10 degrees and should become more accurate when aiming down as well as a longer range. This would make them less effective against a dropship and more effective against a tank.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11152	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:57:00 - [128] - Quote The True Inferno wrote: Swarms should have different lock-on times for each vehicle, DS should take the longest(dew to the fact they re flying) and tanks should take the least(as they're on the ground). There should also be different types of swarms that are specailised to different vehicles with bonuses and penalties to each vehicle for damage range and lock-on time. Forge guns should have a slite dip for there projectiles when aiming above 10 degrees and should become more accurate when aiming down as well as a longer range. This would make them less effective against a dropship and more effective against a tank. Thats not a bad suggestion, signatures on vehicles is but another aspect of EVE vessels, and opens up the possibly of having many skills to all faster targeting speeds of automated systems as well as decreases of signatures values. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Espartoi Orkz Clan 257	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:03:00 - [129] - Quote Well as nobody has enough brain to answer i just assume that this issue is from always and if judge here is point it out just know when he is running for CPM looks you know... convenient. Shoot Smash Stomp Chop. Am a Giant Realistic Flying Tiger.
OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 9	Posted - 2014.06.25 05:04:00 - [130] - Quote they're still not listening to you are they Judge?

Mors The Butcher Red Star. EoN. 20	Posted - 2014.06.25 14:09:00 - [131] - Quote 1 this is not the real world 2 this is a game 3 judge is a bad pilot any questions I'M SORRY..... I'M SORRY FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU... ....AND EVERYTHING THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU
tween tween UrAnus Air Service 7	Posted - 2014.06.25 16:00:00 - [132] - Quote Listen to what. Was off for 1,5 weeks and they launched hotfix bravo. Came home, slightly drunk and decided to see what the hotfix was all about. Mind I'm a tanker playing domination. What happen was that my tanks were all eff'd up, but I'll save that for another day. As per usual, Judge was in his dropship on the other team with Delboy and CEOpyrex in missile tanks, his own little gang. Now one thing is my railgun being completely ou outranged by these missile tanks but even as I drove back into the redline, we were loosing pretty bad. I could even poke out and look in the redline as judge just flew in and nearly wrecked my shield rail's again and again, succeeded aswell a couple of times. You write this and that about dropships, yet you fail to mention the times you farm tanks yourself and please, next time you upload a one of your pity videos, let it be from one of the times your actually "playing" the game - that is playing with Pyrex and Delboy, who cover you arse anyways most of the times.
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 170	Posted - 2014.06.25 16:38:00 - [133] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: True Adamance wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other? A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not? Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be. Can I ask you this question : If AV hits tanks and dropships for the same damage. Yet one can have vastly more HP than the other does this seem like a fair balance or not? No its not fair, but neither vehicle is designed to fulfil the others role. The advantage of an HAV would in this case be its armoured hull, which should absorb fire. The cost being mobility and lack of ability to engage close range targets both aerial and on ground. The advantage of a Dropship should be its mobility, fire power, and aerial nature. The cost being less durability. To be fair I cannot argue Dropship semantics with you, so I defer to you on dropship matters, but I'm not going to agree that ADS are useless. They are the most dangerous (but not OP) thing on most maps right now. I fear ADS way more than tanks. Tanks are frequently easy to avoid as long as there are not an overwhelming number of infantry hunting me down while I evade the tank. buildings are the only valid hiding space from an ADS.
Bright Steel Tears Of Wars 20	Posted - 2014.06.27 13:32:00 - [134] - Quote As soon as my scout has as much EHP as a heavy I will agree for DS to have the same EHP as HAV My all MLT scout can take out a proto heavy. Millions of so (edite: SP) gives you an edge over others but doesn't make you god! The Best Worst game you can't stop playing..... DUST
Atiim NoGameNoLife 9906	Posted - 2014.06.27 15:06:00 - [135] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Lol like every AVer groups me in with Spkr and Taka........ you just have to HTFU because they won't. I don't. NoLifing DUST for the Officer Swarm Launcher. "Many things in life are subjective, morality is one of them..." -HAND
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3851	Posted - 2014.06.27 15:33:00 - [136] - Quote Atiim wrote: True Adamance wrote: Lol like every AVer groups me in with Spkr and Taka........ you just have to HTFU because they won't. I don't. Don't what? HTFU? (I keed, I keed ) CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3851	Posted - 2014.06.27 15:36:00 - [137] - Quote tween tween wrote: Listen to what. Was off for 1,5 weeks and they launched hotfix bravo. Came home, slightly drunk and decided to see what the hotfix was all about. Mind I'm a tanker playing domination. What happen was that my tanks were all eff'd up, but I'll save that for another day. As per usual, Judge was in his dropship on the other team with Delboy and CEOpyrex in missile tanks, his own little gang. Now one thing is my railgun being completely ou outranged by these missile tanks but even as I drove back into the redline, we were loosing pretty bad. I could even poke out and look in the redline as judge just flew in and nearly wrecked my shield rail's again and again, succeeded aswell a couple of times. You write this and that about dropships, yet you fail to mention the times you farm tanks yourself and please, next time you upload a one of your pity videos, let it be from one of the times your actually "playing" the game - that is playing with Pyrex and Delboy, who cover you arse anyways most of the times. My Particle Cannon hits out to 300m, and my XT-201s hit to 250m, and they do it with 48% efficiency against shields. I think you need to get good, or better yet, avoid 3v1s (which I would consider an important part of considering yourself a competent tanker). CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2341	Posted - 2014.06.27 15:47:00 - [138] - Quote OP FOTM wrote: they're still not listening to you are they Judge? Seems not. It is interesting that people think my OP says that dropships need the same defense as tanks. Pop back and read it again. I am actually talking about the fact they take the same damage. These two things sound the same but they are not. What I am pointing out is that we could tweak AV to do more or less damage to tanks than they do to dropships. Should swarms be stronger against dropships but forges weaker? Should we make tanks weak to forge guns but strong to swarms? We have to factor the ease at which each AV can track and hit its target and balance AV with this in mind. If all vehicles take the same damage then we are not considering dropships ability to run or tanks ability to take damage. We treat both vehicles the same but they just are not. I made no claims that I wanted damage reduced. Only that CCP has limited AVs options by making the damage taken the same. @ tween tween : I actually did upload a video similar to the one you describe. It is not one of the more action filled ones, I'll post one of those later. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 341	Posted - 2014.06.27 16:07:00 - [139] - Quote Why should you take less damage just because you have less HP? Please explain that. Cos I don't go around crying that my scout suit takes too much damage from infantry.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2341	Posted - 2014.06.27 16:08:00 - [140] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Why should you take less damage just because you have less HP? Please explain that. Cos I don't go around crying that my scout suit takes too much damage from infantry. Or more damage. I said nothing about less in the OP. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion

ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 3070	Posted - 2014.06.27 16:15:00 - [141] - Quote I don't understand judge, why give dropships arbitrary resistance? If their ehp is too low, simply increase their hp pool. The only reason I can think of is so that repairs are more effective and hardeners are less effective. I'll admit I don't fly dropships myself but I rarely see anyone stating that dropships take too long to recover their hp, and unlike HAVs its usually fairly simple to make your way to a supply depot to repair your armor, especially since you'll be going back for ammo constantly anyways. I see absolutely no reason to increase dropship resistance to AV other than to make things inconsistent and confusing for non theorycrafters.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2341	Posted - 2014.06.27 16:22:00 - [142] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I see absolutely no reason to increase dropship resistance to AV other than to make things inconsistent and confusing for non theorycrafters. Or decrease.... A tiny tweak in resistance can really help the fine tuning, It helps add to the variables other than say just missile base damage, or missile count. Judge For CPM 1 youtube Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14478	Posted - 2014.06.27 16:34:00 - [143] - Quote I don't really even bother flying now. A single ADV swarm is enough to kill me now if I so much as hover for a moment, it's silly. It's nice that they completely ruined large railguns, but I'm not putting 500K on the line so some idiot who can't aim can just spam missiles and take me out. I basically just don't play much at all anymore, handing balance over to the "community" was a questionable decision at best. Swarms have always needed help, but now they're just obnoxious. At least forge guns require you to aim and have an understanding of timings.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 341	Posted - 2014.06.27 16:42:00 - [144] - Quote Swarms haven't changed. You just take normal damage now. If you stick around you should die why is that a hard concept to grasp?
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14478	Posted - 2014.06.27 16:47:00 - [145] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Swarms haven't changed. You just take normal damage now. If you stick around you should die why is that a hard concept to grasp? Why is it a hard concept to grasp that a weapon that requires no aim shouldn't be incredibly effective? Should it be useful? Sure. Should a single ADV swarm neuter a dropship? Or anything? No. At least forge guns require skill to operate
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 341	Posted - 2014.06.27 16:58:00 - [146] - Quote Difference is it only hurts vehicles and installations, so it should be as effective as it is.
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14478	Posted - 2014.06.27 17:05:00 - [147] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Difference is it only hurts vehicles and installations, so it should be as effective as it is. It would just be nice if they had to try, even just a little.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 341	Posted - 2014.06.27 17:15:00 - [148] - Quote The swarm isn't a brainless weapon though. If I'm not close enough to a vehicle it will most likely escape. I do have to try.
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3861	Posted - 2014.06.27 17:15:00 - [149] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I don't really even bother flying now. A single ADV swarm is enough to kill me now if I so much as hover for a moment, it's silly. It's nice that they completely ruined large railguns, but I'm not putting 500K on the line so some idiot who can't aim can just spam missiles and take me out. I basically just don't play much at all anymore, handing balance over to the "community" was a questionable decision at best. Swarms have always needed help, but now they're just obnoxious. At least forge guns require you to aim and have an understanding of timings. A single volley of proto swarms can deal (and this is maxxed MinMando, 2x Cx damage mods + Prof 5) 2195 damage to armour. On the flipside, those same swarms will deal 1272 damage to shields. A hardener will reduce that damage to 1646 to armour, which, including the Incubus' base shields should be plenty to tank two shots. It should even be possible without a hardener - 3k armour should do the trick. And burning away out of the 175m lock range should sort your problems right out. I'm sorry, but I don't really see the problem here. (For reference, an Ishukone Assault FG will deal in the regions of 2000 damage to your armour with the same number of damage mods fitted (a third adds about 50 damage), while dealing 1626 to shields.) I just went off to protofits and built an Incubus with 3539 armour EHP against unproficiency'd swarms (4247 base), on top of 1187 shield EHP (950 base) for a total of 4700 EHP (5197 before resistances); including a Complex Afterburner, escaping from a fully specced Proto-Swarm-Double-Complex-Damage-Mod-Proto-MinMando should be reasonably straightforward. And if he's running all that, odds are he can't fit anything else. As for ADV swarms, they deal 1829 to armour and 1060 to shields (after resistances). I'm of the opinion that these swarms are fine, especially considering the incredibly short range they have relative to vehicle movement speed, and the vulnerability of the wearer (my friend's MinMando runs less EHP than my Ferro-tanked Assault...) CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14478	Posted - 2014.06.27 17:25:00 - [150] - Quote I'd love my second high slot back so I can have some variation in fit. Your heavy plate light rep build is nice for surviving that initial volley but your acceleration is crap even with an AB, and if you run into AV anywhere else on the field you're just going to die because your rep rate is way too low for that health pool. Hardeners are a liability now for the most part, and with heavy reps nerfed the one good Incubus build has essentially been neutered. I just don't fly right now. Assuming I actually play, I'll just wait till things even out a bit.



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