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Tanks and Dropships take the same damage. Explain CCP

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Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1382	Posted - 2014.06.24 02:51:00 - [61] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: True Adamance wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other? A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not? Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be. Actually it doesn't. Stingers are designed to take down aircraft, which are far less armored than tanks. Aluminum frame vs 4 inch thick steel plate. I'm not sure if stingers can lock on to tanks. Even if it could it won't go for a tanks weak point like the javelin does, which is designed to take out tanks. Fair call. Would a Javelin have been a better analogy? But a javelin can't hit air targets. Too fast. There's a reason there are two separate weapon systems. If we could use one for both, we would, it'd be cheaper. Swarms should be for drop ships. They do reduced damage to tanks. Forges should be for tanks. They do reduced damage to drop ships. Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
Miokai Zahou The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 302	Posted - 2014.06.24 03:14:00 - [62] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: True Adamance wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: True Adamance wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other? A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not? Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be. Actually it doesn't. Stingers are designed to take down aircraft, which are far less armored than tanks. Aluminum frame vs 4 inch thick steel plate. I'm not sure if stingers can lock on to tanks. Even if it could it won't go for a tanks weak point like the javelin does, which is designed to take out tanks. Fair call. Would a Javelin have been a better analogy? But a javelin can't hit air targets. Too fast. There's a reason there are two separate weapon systems. If we could use one for both, we would, it'd be cheaper. Swarms should be for drop ships. They do reduced damage to tanks. Forges should be for tanks. They do reduced damage to drop ships. But the resources alone would be too much for rattai to do all at once? It'll be better to just add one extra high slot for the pyhon and one extra low slot for the incubus and increase the cpu and power grid for both accordingly. This way the ADS has a bit more "tank" but still fragile enough to blow up from the AV community. Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11068	Posted - 2014.06.24 03:23:00 - [63] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: True Adamance wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: True Adamance wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other? A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not? Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be. Actually it doesn't. Stingers are designed to take down aircraft, which are far less armored than tanks. Aluminum frame vs 4 inch thick steel plate. I'm not sure if stingers can lock on to tanks. Even if it could it won't go for a tanks weak point like the javelin does, which is designed to take out tanks. Fair call. Would a Javelin have been a better analogy? But a javelin can't hit air targets. Too fast. There's a reason there are two separate weapon systems. If we could use one for both, we would, it'd be cheaper. Swarms should be for drop ships. They do reduced damage to tanks. Forges should be for tanks. They do reduced damage to drop ships. So if I eyeballed a Javelin and hit and air target.......what would happen? " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3308	Posted - 2014.06.24 03:39:00 - [64] - Quote To be honest the main issue is i think that there are no light and heavy aircrafts (like the icons on loading screens indicate). Normal dropships are just missused for jobs which they just arent originally intended for (ADS for example). If there would be something like a gunship then we wouldnt have this silly discussion if swarms should deal the same damage. But meh CCP gave up on client side updates which means no more vehicles ever.
Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 5423	Posted - 2014.06.24 03:42:00 - [65] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: True Adamance wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other? A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not? Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be. Can I ask you this question : If AV hits tanks and dropships for the same damage. Yet one can have vastly more HP than the other does this seem like a fair balance or not? It wouldn't be balanced if tanks could FLY That Crazy Minmatar Fanatic Stabbing Heavies for the Republic since Uprising 1.1 PSN: EVL_Elgost105
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 839	Posted - 2014.06.24 04:01:00 - [66] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So a forge or swarm does the same damage to a dropship as it does to a tank. So CCP. Explain how you feel that two vehicles that have vastly different effective Hit Points should take the same damage from AV? I defies logic. If swarms or Forges are balanced against tanks, then they are not against dropships. If they are fair against dropships then they are not against tanks. Are you just pulling damage and resistance numbers from thin air? Because that is what it looks like. ...REALY? HAVs are heavy vehicles, dropships are medium vehicles, LAVs are light vehicles. Why should a dropship be able to take the same punishment as a tank? Corrected swarm damage efficiency against incubus was not random. The 80/120 damage modifier is the norm for explosives. I say no thank you to creating special damage modifiers for dropships to give same survivability as a tank. What'll be next, LAVs with the same survivability of a tank? You can't say no with the argument you just made because the argument also applies to LAVs. Judge Rhadamanthus, you've let me down. Medium frame EHP is not medium
Argetlam Thorson Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 75	Posted - 2014.06.24 04:02:00 - [67] - Quote Harpyja wrote: CCP could've made EVERY vehicle have 2000 EHP, with the only variable be resistance. LAVs: 0%, Dropships: 25%, HAVs: 50%. But they didn't. Would've had the same effect as the current design, but they didn't and I like the current design better. You're confusing raw HP with eHP. Raw HP is the number of hit points you get. EHP is the number when you take into account resistances. If they all have 2000 eHP it would take exactly the same amount of damage taken to destroy them. If they all had 2000 raw HP, then with the damage resistances you suggested, we would see a similar system to what is in place now, where Tanks have more EHP (i.e. easier to destroy) and LAV's have less EHP making them easier to destroy.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 329	Posted - 2014.06.24 04:06:00 - [68] - Quote I love how before AV was complete crap none of you DS pilots said anything about the swarm launcher but now that it can hurt you you want to nerf It. Sad part is that the swarm hasn't even been buffed bugs just got fixed. If your ships had more fitting room and an extra relavent slot you could get more HP. That's the problem not AV damage, you have fits that have 2500 HP and complain you can't 'tank' AV.
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 839	Posted - 2014.06.24 04:30:00 - [69] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: I love how before AV was complete crap none of you DS pilots said anything about the swarm launcher but now that it can hurt you you want to nerf It. Sad part is that the swarm hasn't even been buffed bugs just got fixed. If your ships had more fitting room and an extra relavent slot you could get more HP. That's the problem not AV damage, you have fits that have 2500 HP and complain you can't 'tank' AV. o/ I said lower tier swarms were under performing. And although I've acknowledged that my python is squishy, I have never made a case for it getting more EHP. Please don't group me with "those" people. Medium frame EHP is not medium
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11081	Posted - 2014.06.24 04:39:00 - [70] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: I love how before AV was complete crap none of you DS pilots said anything about the swarm launcher but now that it can hurt you you want to nerf It. Sad part is that the swarm hasn't even been buffed bugs just got fixed. If your ships had more fitting room and an extra relavent slot you could get more HP. That's the problem not AV damage, you have fits that have 2500 HP and complain you can't 'tank' AV. o/ I said lower tier swarms were under performing. And although I've acknowledged that my python is squishy, I have never made a case for it getting more EHP. Please don't group me with "those" people. Lol like every AVer groups me in with Spkr and Taka........ you just have to HTFU because they won't. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III

Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1384	Posted - 2014.06.24 05:09:00 - [71] - Quote True Adamance wrote: So if I eyeballed a Javelin and hit and air target.......what would happen? The javelin wouldn't fire. It requires a lock before the missile is released. And aircraft are too small and move too much for them to get one. Even if they did manage a lock, the missile is not near maneuverable enough nor fast enough to catch up. Even if the universe conspired against the pilot and made the missile hit, its made to break through thick tank armor. There's a chance the thin aluminum that aircraft use wouldn't be hard enough to set the charge off. Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1395	Posted - 2014.06.24 07:13:00 - [72] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So a forge or swarm does the same damage to a dropship as it does to a tank. So CCP. Explain how you feel that two vehicles that have vastly different effective Hit Points should take the same damage from AV? I defies logic. If swarms or Forges are balanced against tanks, then they are not against dropships. If they are fair against dropships then they are not against tanks. Are you just pulling damage and resistance numbers from thin air? Because that is what it looks like. Tanks - can tank damage=slow ground vehicle with high HP. Dropships - can avoid damage=fast aerial vehicle with low HP. I think the problem is just that you're used to hovering indefinitely while you farm infantry, tanking every swarm that comes your way without ever having to fall back. This was never supposed to happen and was only possible due to a bug with the resistances. Now you often have to withdraw in the face of AV. Fortunately, you have the massive advantage of extreme speed and manoeuvrability. That is what the main defence of dropships was always supposed to be, not extreme tankability.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11088	Posted - 2014.06.24 07:34:00 - [73] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: True Adamance wrote: So if I eyeballed a Javelin and hit and air target.......what would happen? The javelin wouldn't fire. It requires a lock before the missile is released. And aircraft are too small and move too much for them to get one. Even if they did manage a lock, the missile is not near maneuverable enough nor fast enough to catch up. Even if the universe conspired against the pilot and made the missile hit, its made to break through thick tank armor. There's a chance the thin aluminum that aircraft use wouldn't be hard enough to set the charge off. Okay now THIS SPECIAL JAVELIN that does fire (AKA forgegun) hits a helicopter. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
Derpty Derp It's All Gone Derp 189	Posted - 2014.06.24 08:36:00 - [74] - Quote I'll be honest, I'd just like to be able to see things from the air, otherwise it's really not the 'advantage' everyone makes it out to be... half the maps have no cover so you're pretty much a sitting... well flying (i suppose) duck. I can hit things from max range most of the time, I do it against fast moving jeeps all the time, now if I could just have dropsuits actually render at that range, it would be fine and we could stand a chance against the av. Also nerf swarm lockon, it's stupidly easy and the damage isn't okay for something that easy to fit and use. The hp/damage recieved is fine, brick tanking a Grimsnes can annoy the **** out of any av on the ground.
lunatis orrak Battlefield Brawlers 30	Posted - 2014.06.24 10:37:00 - [75] - Quote Took out three tanks yesterday out of my python turns out few of these tankers have little skill if they cant rep themselve all the way to the redline. CHUBBY CHASER FOR LIFE `!BEWARE MY FAT BULLDOGS! The leash is not for your protection`
Alpha 443-6732 BurgezzE.T.F 525	Posted - 2014.06.24 10:53:00 - [76] - Quote Please tell me this isn't the real judge that made this thread. Please tell me it's one of his imposters
Jack Galen Vanguardian Remnant 3	Posted - 2014.06.24 11:05:00 - [77] - Quote As an experienced pilot, I think we are the closest to a balance we have ever been. Now, in my ads, if the infantry/vehicles deem me a threat and adapt to fight back, I have to be very careful. However, if they let their guard down, I can still pwn them, fulfilling the assault role. An example is when a squad wants one tank/group taken care of. I can get in, kill it/them and get out, but if I don't show the utmost care or I linger afterwards and get greedy, I get popped. CCP GOT GUD. The only thing I would ask is to have a bit more survivability on Std transport ships, or to have logi ships back, just to be able to pick people up from heated zones and fulfil a support role with out getting screwed every time That, and don't get me started on rendering Still, I'm happy where we stand, and I think we all should be. TL;DR get a grip judge, dropships are not havs.
Alpha 443-6732 BurgezzE.T.F 526	Posted - 2014.06.24 11:10:00 - [78] - Quote I want to believe...
Jack Galen Vanguardian Remnant 3	Posted - 2014.06.24 11:14:00 - [79] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Please don't group me with "those" people. Good lord, this. I hate the reputation we've been given from lol-I-WIN pilots.
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 36	Posted - 2014.06.24 11:19:00 - [80] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: True Adamance wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other? A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not? Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be. Can I ask you this question : If AV hits tanks and dropships for the same damage. Yet one can have vastly more HP than the other does this seem like a fair balance or not? fair?..lol i want a flying tank with a 120mm smooth bore.

Jack Galen Vanguardian Remnant 3	Posted - 2014.06.24 11:30:00 - [81] - Quote The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: True Adamance wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other? A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not? Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be. Can I ask you this question : If AV hits tanks and dropships for the same damage. Yet one can have vastly more HP than the other does this seem like a fair balance or not? fair?..lol i want a flying tank with a 120mm smooth bore. Can you imagine...an incubus with an 80GJ PA? That's the biggest case of lolOP I've ever seen! Would be fun though
Schecter 666 73	Posted - 2014.06.24 11:38:00 - [82] - Quote 1. This would be extremely difficult to implement. 2. Such an update will not happen as dust has barely anyone working on 3. What you're trying to say is your dropship should take less damage than tanks. Swarms are already pointless against dropships Get out
RogueTrooper 2000AD Neckbeard Absolution 98	Posted - 2014.06.24 11:40:00 - [83] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: True Adamance wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other? A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not? Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be. Can I ask you this question : If AV hits tanks and dropships for the same damage. Yet one can have vastly more HP than the other does this seem like a fair balance or not? So you want a drop ship to be as effective a tank that fly's. Service with a smile
Mors The Butcher Red Star. EoN. 20	Posted - 2014.06.24 13:33:00 - [84] - Quote judge knows tankers can kill him still and av so he wants a huge buff to his ads because hes a bad pilot and when ever he comes a cross Takahiro Kashuken or Spker4thedead he leaves its hilarious I'M SORRY..... I'M SORRY FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU... ....AND EVERYTHING THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU
Harpyja Legio DXIV 1924	Posted - 2014.06.24 13:42:00 - [85] - Quote Argetlam Thorson wrote: Harpyja wrote: CCP could've made EVERY vehicle have 2000 EHP, with the only variable be resistance. LAVs: 0%, Dropships: 25%, HAVs: 50%. But they didn't. Would've had the same effect as the current design, but they didn't and I like the current design better. You're confusing raw HP with eHP. Raw HP is the number of hit points you get. EHP is the number when you take into account resistances. If they all have 2000 eHP it would take exactly the same amount of damage taken to destroy them. If they all had 2000 raw HP, then with the damage resistances you suggested, we would see a similar system to what is in place now, where Tanks have more EHP (i.e. easier to destroy) and LAV's have less EHP making them easier to destroy. Fine fine fine, that's just a technicality, but you got my point. "By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32 -- "Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
Mobius Wyvern Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 5303	Posted - 2014.06.24 14:03:00 - [86] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: im not saying dropships need to be stronger. But if AV is balanced against one of these vehicles whith the same damage profile... how can it be balanced against the other? A Stinger missile does the same damage to an Abrams that it would to a Black Hawk if it hits does it not? Are you asking for an arbitrary resistance? Because either way it seems like the result would make one vehicle more powerful than it needs to be. NO it does not. Lemme stop you right there. Anti-air missiles are almost all designed with fragmentation warheads that detonate by proximity and not contact. A dedicated anti-tank missile usually uses a shaped-charge explosive that heats a metal "penetrator" and forces it to melt through the hull on contact to destroy the tank from the inside. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Atiim NoGameNoLife 9795	Posted - 2014.06.24 18:04:00 - [87] - Quote Miokai Zahou wrote: Just give the ADS an increase to cpu and power grid and also one extra high/low slot. Done fixed. You mean broken beyond all belief? I want SLAVs, not SLAVEs. "Many things in life are subjective, morality is one of them..." -HAND
CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 1172	Posted - 2014.06.24 18:33:00 - [88] - Quote I feel dropships are in a great spot right now. I can only speak from experience with the Python (Caldari shield dropship) however I will die if I stick around decent AV, swarms or the forge both work. I do however have a problem with Vehicle Collision damage and how it is seemingly different depending on the vehicle. Investigate 9/11
Teba Gan da durrty dozenz 0	Posted - 2014.06.24 20:01:00 - [89] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So a forge or swarm does the same damage to a dropship as it does to a tank. So CCP. Explain how you feel that two vehicles that have vastly different effective Hit Points should take the same damage from AV? I defies logic. If swarms or Forges are balanced against tanks, then they are not against dropships. If they are fair against dropships then they are not against tanks. Are you just pulling damage and resistance numbers from thin air? Because that is what it looks like. Yeah, I have never understood this. Damage application should be seperated, or at the very least modules should be seperated into air and ground. Much like the afterburner.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 3047	Posted - 2014.06.24 20:11:00 - [90] - Quote This thread is just baffling in how it goes against common sense



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