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shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1902	Posted - 2014.04.23 08:25:00 - [1] - Quote Every FPS share the same basic concept, shoot to the enemy and kill him, so kills and deaths are occurring very often. Generally in every FPS kills and deaths count only towards to your stats and have no impact on the way you play the game, but DUST is different, you have to pay for your assets (and i like this concept), but ISK payouts are not balanced to your effort. Let me explain better with some examples: My STD fits cost average is: 20k isk My ADV fits cost average is: 60k isk My PRO fits cost average is: 190k isk My payout average is; 210k isk This mean that i can die: 10 times in STD or 3 times in ADV + 1 STD or 1 time in PRO + 1STD. In a game where deaths are frequent like a FPS you should be able to die with your best asset at least 2 times and still make profit. I have had only a biref experience with EVE online, but i don't think that death occurrs as much as in DUST. Let's assume a player with a 1.0 kd/r, he should be able to use 1 PRO, 3 ADV, 10 STD and gain some isk (not a lot but a decent amount), 16 kills and 16 deaths. How? I think there should be some kind of isk multipliers at the end of the match based on your WP score. Each multiplier should be at 500 WP Something like (random numbers): 500wp x 1.1 1000wp x 1.2 1500wp x 1.3 2000wp x 1.4 2500wp x 1.5 and so on till a cap of 2. WInning team gain a +0.1 on all multipliers, losing team -0.1 on all multipliers. In this way the game will pay your efforts and you will gain something more if you give something more. The unnamed new build it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes.. \o/ summon me
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14298	Posted - 2014.04.23 08:26:00 - [2] - Quote I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
keno trader Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 97	Posted - 2014.04.23 08:31:00 - [3] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. Yea...either that...or make it easier for people to get into proto suits. Or simply fix matchmaking. *1.8* --- Still getting spawntrapped by boxes. *1.8* --- Smart deployment = letting a 2 year old handle spawns.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1902	Posted - 2014.04.23 08:32:00 - [4] - Quote There is no point running PRO over ADV if you are against an organized team, but at least if everyone have the possibility to use at least a couple of PRO suits, they should counter them better. I must agree that ADV and STD suit cost too much. The unnamed new build it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes.. \o/ summon me
Jason Pearson State Terrestrial Mercenaries 4140	Posted - 2014.04.23 08:50:00 - [5] - Quote No thanks. When I run a proto suit I know I can only die once or risk losing more than I gain, I have a 24k ISK fit and a 170k ISK fit, the latter is used when it's needed and so I'm not able to run a proto heavy with a boundless HMG everytime I die, this is a good thing. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire \\ Bad Mathematician
Retarn Dominus H.A.R.V.E.S.T. Lokun Listamenn 58	Posted - 2014.04.23 08:58:00 - [6] - Quote Although i hardly ever run proto suits or weapons i would actually say they cost too much in comparision to BASIC/ADV. Most of those that Stomp can afford these high costs all day long due to the vast amount of Corp ISK floating around. Lessen the costs and have more people in proto gear sooner rather than it not being an option to use proto fits at all. Peace. What? You think your Complex armour plating on your sweet Proto will save you? Think again BOOM
The Eristic Sad Panda Solutions 424	Posted - 2014.04.23 08:59:00 - [7] - Quote keno trader wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. Yea...either that...or make it easier for people to get into proto suits. Frames 2x, Roles 4x. Or, if that's too low, 3x - 6x?
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1904	Posted - 2014.04.23 11:26:00 - [8] - Quote The Eristic wrote: keno trader wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. Yea...either that...or make it easier for people to get into proto suits. Frames 2x, Roles 4x. Or, if that's too low, 3x - 6x? SP are not the problem, sooner or later everybody can skill a pro suit, the problem is to use it, because it's expensive. I don't think that with increased isk payouts there will be more protostomping, afterall who run proto 24/7 will still be running proto 24/7, at least if everybody will have the possibility to use a couple of pro suits and still make profit, the match would not be so easily onesided. The unnamed new build it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes.. \o/ summon me
Ander Thedas Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 535	Posted - 2014.04.23 11:36:00 - [9] - Quote Changing prices won't matter after the player market is introduced. Supply and demand will dictate prices. Things will get interesting. Omnia mutantur nihil interit FW lvl10 reward
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1244	Posted - 2014.04.23 11:45:00 - [10] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. So you support CCP/Shanghai over players? Just asking. I think you are completely wrong. No surprise right? Well the problem with the current ISK payout scheme is any below sixth place or so get the shaft. The further down you go the worse it is. Good ISK payout seems tied to destruction of equipment, at least that is what happened when my ISK rewards are at their highest. One used to be able to make a profit if a decent strategy and play style could be developed. Since the first of the year CCP/Shanghai has significantly cut the ISK payout. Distinctly, directly and repeatedly. The change on the battlefield is obvious. Many Mercs pull back once they have lost too much. Then the rest QQ about their Berries not doing anything. Well, duh! The more suits they lose means they will not only lose the battle but take a financial loss as well. CCP/Shanghai choked off the ISK, probably because many from Beta had millions and PC Corps do as well. Now, this is the resulting change in game behavior. New Berries and those needing to grind in this grinder to end all grinders want to do it and still be able to buy the hugely over priced Skill Books. Because you cannot Skill into a branch of the skill tree without the original Skill Book. Reap. Sow. You know the drill. Although, maybe CCP/Shanghai doesn't. And so it goes.

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14304	Posted - 2014.04.23 11:49:00 - [11] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. So you support CCP/Shanghai over players? Just asking. I think you are completely wrong. No surprise right? Well the problem with the current ISK payout scheme is any below sixth place or so get the shaft. The further down you go the worse it is. Good ISK payout seems tied to destruction of equipment, at least that is what happened when my ISK rewards are at their highest. One used to be able to make a profit if a decent strategy and play style could be developed. Since the first of the year CCP/Shanghai has significantly cut the ISK payout. Distinctly, directly and repeatedly. The change on the battlefield is obvious. Many Mercs pull back once they have lost too much. Then the rest QQ about their Berries not doing anything. Well, duh! The more suits they lose means they will not only lose the battle but take a financial loss as well. CCP/Shanghai choked off the ISK, probably because many from Beta had millions and PC Corps do as well. Now, this is the resulting change in game behavior. New Berries and those needing to grind in this grinder to end all grinders want to do it and still be able to buy the hugely over priced Skill Books. Because you cannot Skill into a branch of the skill tree without the original Skill Book. Reap. Sow. You know the drill. Although, maybe CCP/Shanghai doesn't. So how many officer fitted ships can you lose in a row? CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1906	Posted - 2014.04.23 11:51:00 - [12] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: KalOfTheRathi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. So you support CCP/Shanghai over players? Just asking. I think you are completely wrong. No surprise right? Well the problem with the current ISK payout scheme is any below sixth place or so get the shaft. The further down you go the worse it is. Good ISK payout seems tied to destruction of equipment, at least that is what happened when my ISK rewards are at their highest. One used to be able to make a profit if a decent strategy and play style could be developed. Since the first of the year CCP/Shanghai has significantly cut the ISK payout. Distinctly, directly and repeatedly. The change on the battlefield is obvious. Many Mercs pull back once they have lost too much. Then the rest QQ about their Berries not doing anything. Well, duh! The more suits they lose means they will not only lose the battle but take a financial loss as well. CCP/Shanghai choked off the ISK, probably because many from Beta had millions and PC Corps do as well. Now, this is the resulting change in game behavior. New Berries and those needing to grind in this grinder to end all grinders want to do it and still be able to buy the hugely over priced Skill Books. Because you cannot Skill into a branch of the skill tree without the original Skill Book. Reap. Sow. You know the drill. Although, maybe CCP/Shanghai doesn't. So how many officer fitted ships can you lose in a row? I don't know how death is frequent in EVE but i'm sure that is less frequent than DUST. Comparing a space RPG to a FPS have no sense. The unnamed new build it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes.. \o/ summon me
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14304	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:04:00 - [13] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: KalOfTheRathi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. So you support CCP/Shanghai over players? Just asking. I think you are completely wrong. No surprise right? Well the problem with the current ISK payout scheme is any below sixth place or so get the shaft. The further down you go the worse it is. Good ISK payout seems tied to destruction of equipment, at least that is what happened when my ISK rewards are at their highest. One used to be able to make a profit if a decent strategy and play style could be developed. Since the first of the year CCP/Shanghai has significantly cut the ISK payout. Distinctly, directly and repeatedly. The change on the battlefield is obvious. Many Mercs pull back once they have lost too much. Then the rest QQ about their Berries not doing anything. Well, duh! The more suits they lose means they will not only lose the battle but take a financial loss as well. CCP/Shanghai choked off the ISK, probably because many from Beta had millions and PC Corps do as well. Now, this is the resulting change in game behavior. New Berries and those needing to grind in this grinder to end all grinders want to do it and still be able to buy the hugely over priced Skill Books. Because you cannot Skill into a branch of the skill tree without the original Skill Book. Reap. Sow. You know the drill. Although, maybe CCP/Shanghai doesn't. So how many officer fitted ships can you lose in a row? I don't know how death is frequent in EVE but i'm sure that is less frequent than DUST. Comparing a space RPG to a FPS have no sense. You're missing the point. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
AngelflamesP Dragon Fire Syndicate 11	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:22:00 - [14] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Every FPS share the same basic concept, shoot to the enemy and kill him, so kills and deaths are occurring very often. Generally in every FPS kills and deaths count only towards to your stats and have no impact on the way you play the game, but DUST is different, you have to pay for your assets (and i like this concept), but ISK payouts are not balanced to your effort. Let me explain better with some examples: My STD fits cost average is: 20k isk My ADV fits cost average is: 60k isk My PRO fits cost average is: 190k isk My payout average is; 210k isk This mean that i can die: 10 times in STD or 3 times in ADV + 1 STD or 1 time in PRO + 1STD. In a game where deaths are frequent like a FPS you should be able to die with your best asset at least 2 times and still make profit. I have had only a biref experience with EVE online, but i don't think that death occurrs as much as in DUST. Let's assume a player with a 1.0 kd/r, he should be able to use 1 PRO, 3 ADV, 10 STD and gain some isk (not a lot but a decent amount), 16 kills and 16 deaths. How? I think there should be some kind of isk multipliers at the end of the match based on your WP score. Each multiplier should be at 500 WP Something like (random numbers): 500wp x 1.1 1000wp x 1.2 1500wp x 1.3 2000wp x 1.4 2500wp x 1.5 and so on till a cap of 2. WInning team gain a +0.1 on all multipliers, losing team -0.1 on all multipliers. In this way the game will pay your efforts and you will gain something more if you give something more. This is kind of nice in my opinion and the way we get payed is kinda of weird...it is said that WP will get you ISK and this is true although WP determines where you are on the scoreboard...heres the big catch! You are payed by where you are on the score board after the match ends for instand i got in 4th place in 2 games in a row both differnet kills and deaths one more over than the other.... that is 220k is ( plus 10% corp tax ) both those games i got the same about of isk just a lil different.... i suggested to my friends and corp buddies that you get payed a specific amount depending on the type of suit you kill ... for instance just like EVE when you do security missions or claim a bounty... the bounty isnt fully given to you unless you kill a ship worth around that price and as for running the security missions they NPCs get a bounty on them as well so perhaps depending on the suit type that that the other player was using was killed by you... you get a specific isk amount bonus such as killing a light suit and lets say you get 20k isk every time you kill a light suit and 40k every time you kill a medium and 60k every time you kill a heavy!? i think thats a good idea what about you guys? also as for equipment lets make it so you get a small isk amount just like you do WP like a few hundred ISK for killing a nanohive or destrying dropuplinks ? I like this any of yall?
IceShifter Childhaspawn DUST University Ivy League 557	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:22:00 - [15] - Quote I didn't. Problem remains that stompers can stomp 23/ 7. Making cheap suits cheaper wont help as much as lessening the gap in survivability between the tiers. Realistically. If there was armor that you could use that would maximize your survivabilty and everyone knew about it, the price would be high until knockoffs came about. An mlt would not be purchased at all if it came with a disclaimer saying it will fail quicker than human reaction time. EP 1.8: Revenge of the Scouts Hiding in the redline means: I want to play, just not with *you* +25 = I'm helping
Nocturnal Soul Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 2950	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:24:00 - [16] - Quote Are you a logi? Its alright everyone, no need to worry it's just an Amarr scout :(
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1540	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:39:00 - [17] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Every FPS share the same basic concept, shoot to the enemy and kill him, so kills and deaths are occurring very often. Generally in every FPS kills and deaths count only towards to your stats and have no impact on the way you play the game, but DUST is different, you have to pay for your assets (and i like this concept), but ISK payouts are not balanced to your effort. Let me explain better with some examples: My STD fits cost average is: 20k isk My ADV fits cost average is: 60k isk My PRO fits cost average is: 190k isk My payout average is; 210k isk This mean that i can die: 10 times in STD or 3 times in ADV + 1 STD or 1 time in PRO + 1STD. In a game where deaths are frequent like a FPS you should be able to die with your best asset at least 2 times and still make profit. I have had only a biref experience with EVE online, but i don't think that death occurrs as much as in DUST. Let's assume a player with a 1.0 kd/r, he should be able to use 1 PRO, 3 ADV, 10 STD and gain some isk (not a lot but a decent amount), 16 kills and 16 deaths. How? I think there should be some kind of isk multipliers at the end of the match based on your WP score. Each multiplier should be at 500 WP Something like (random numbers): 500wp x 1.1 1000wp x 1.2 1500wp x 1.3 2000wp x 1.4 2500wp x 1.5 and so on till a cap of 2. WInning team gain a +0.1 on all multipliers, losing team -0.1 on all multipliers. In this way the game will pay your efforts and you will gain something more if you give something more. I run proto and sometimes i die 6-7 times and sometimes i dont... but i still make positive ISK at the end of the day... But i'd agree to the ISK payout system... I get the same amount of ISK no matter what suits i run or how many i kill... Killing 15-20 guys in proto suit gives about 280-300k... Sitting in a SOMA/SICA and blowing turrets up gives about 260-300 k
howard sanchez YELLOWCAB SERVICES 895	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:41:00 - [18] - Quote We have been discussing what makes Dust such a compelling and addictive game despite its many and varied flaws. I contend that it is the acute sense of loss. Loss of equipment that you purchased with isk that you earned. That right there is the secret sauce. And anytime you can increase the spicy burn of that sauce you further increase the feeling that Dust is different. Obviously it is a balancing act. Too much loss and difficulty in recovering make the spicy Dust sauce a bitter and painful sensation. But if you water it down and create a game where its too easy to replace everything and just keep killing, you will lose the magic. The value of isk is tied to its scarcity. I speak with so many players who love to run proto gear and have KDr >3.0 ( this to indicate that they are frontline trigger pullers vice fps noobs like me). But most of them struggle with staying in the black. They chat a lot about waiting for an isk injection from thier corp or other groups they ring for. While I persist at 0.5 KD and earn enough isk to grow multi millions in profit above and beyond all my costs. My point is that these players have become tradable and valuable commodities in the game. If you make it easier for everyone to gain isk you will destroy the value that the skill gradient amongst players has created. Keep the isk scarce. Real mercenaries have sprung up in dust. It's a beautiful thing. The economy is where it's at.
steadyhand amarr TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2903	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:50:00 - [19] - Quote So the summry of this thread is 80% will only be afford to run STD gear anything higher is a treat and short lived. - Please explain to me why this is fun for avarage gamer Dust a perfect plan. Executed by amuters (not relefective of current staff they have the fan fest build to prove themseleves) "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3613	Posted - 2014.04.23 12:53:00 - [20] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. No. They are already stupid cheap.

Gelhad Thremyr Quebec United Caps and Mercs 241	Posted - 2014.04.23 13:01:00 - [21] - Quote Dust is an isk sink because its free to play, hence ccp wants you to buy aurum to play proto.
howard sanchez YELLOWCAB SERVICES 895	Posted - 2014.04.23 13:06:00 - [22] - Quote Keeping isk valuable and scarce is the solution to protostomping. It is happening slowly right now in the game. Maybe because of the huge isk faucet that is Planetary Conquest, maybe due to the small playerbase or other factors - but we are beginning to see the economic pressure that is applied to players who constantly run very expensive fits. This is why, for the average player or noobs, the way to 'win' versus proto stompers is to run very inexpensive gear. It drives down the stompers' profitability while preserving the isk inflow of the noobs like me. You can choose to be a straight up killer and gain a significant advantage from better gear or you can choose to be profitable in pub matches while not being as effective at cloning out the opponent. But, in a game where isk has enough value and scarcity, it is difficult to choose both. Whether you are willing to admit it or not - that choice is what adds a great deal of compelling motive to Dust
Jadd Hatchen The Phoenix Federation 550	Posted - 2014.04.23 13:14:00 - [23] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Every FPS share the same basic concept, shoot to the enemy and kill him, so kills and deaths are occurring very often. Generally in every FPS kills and deaths count only towards to your stats and have no impact on the way you play the game, but DUST is different, you have to pay for your assets (and i like this concept), but ISK payouts are not balanced to your effort. Let me explain better with some examples: My STD fits cost average is: 20k isk My ADV fits cost average is: 60k isk My PRO fits cost average is: 190k isk My payout average is; 210k isk This mean that i can die: 10 times in STD or 3 times in ADV + 1 STD or 1 time in PRO + 1STD. In a game where deaths are frequent like a FPS you should be able to die with your best asset at least 2 times and still make profit. I have had only a biref experience with EVE online, but i don't think that death occurrs as much as in DUST. Let's assume a player with a 1.0 kd/r, he should be able to use 1 PRO, 3 ADV, 10 STD and gain some isk (not a lot but a decent amount), 16 kills and 16 deaths. How? I think there should be some kind of isk multipliers at the end of the match based on your WP score. Each multiplier should be at 500 WP Something like (random numbers): 500wp x 1.1 1000wp x 1.2 1500wp x 1.3 2000wp x 1.4 2500wp x 1.5 and so on till a cap of 2. WInning team gain a +0.1 on all multipliers, losing team -0.1 on all multipliers. In this way the game will pay your efforts and you will gain something more if you give something more. Actually what needs to happen is CCP needs to allow for EVE (and in some cases even other DUST) players/corps/alliances to issue contracts to take and hold districts. Once this happens your payout will be determined by an open and free market when smart DUST players won't take a contract that is not worth the risk vs. reward. Thus you will see millions of ISK in contracts if only CCP would finish linking the two games like they had originally envisioned for this game. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155753&find=unread AND https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=137656&find=unread Once CCP does those two things, then you will see that money will balance itself out. But right now you got it right, CCP is in control of how much we make via arbitrary numbers that seem really stupid.
DeeJay One Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 262	Posted - 2014.04.23 13:40:00 - [24] - Quote Step 1. Fix passive ISK from PC, this should get rid of most proto stompers pretty easily (although not quickly). Holding SOV takes money, why doesn't something similar work for districts? Step 2. Bring up player market Step 3. Play game modes where loot is based on gear used in match, sell loot. Making just match payouts higher will only add to the protostomping problem, as more players will be able to do it regularly, thus trashing any newcomers completely in pub matches.
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Unit Unicorn 2303	Posted - 2014.04.23 13:43:00 - [25] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: No thanks. When I run a proto suit I know I can only die once or risk losing more than I gain But this also makes the game boring! Everyone fears to lose too many isk and the entire game solves into a giant camp fest. Or The few proto users will easily outmatch the others "poors" Or Sniping the entire match -#Firmocosìperchènonhopersonalità
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 210	Posted - 2014.04.23 13:53:00 - [26] - Quote I made 369K in one match last night, and the one guy I was running with made 420K. We wondered why our team was doing so badly then we realized that it was 5 vs 16. The rest had quit or gone afk. But him and I stayed, I started using my advanced suit after I lost my first proto and he only died once cause he is better at retreating then me. Anyways for those that don't know, isk payout is based on the gear you're wearing vs the gear the enemy is, how many warpoints you get and where you place in the rankings. The cost of all the equipment and gear that the enemy team brings in is put against your and how well you do determines how much you get, that is why it's worth losing a couple of suicide militia fits with remote explosives to take out 2 or 3 protos. The entire game is stacked against newbs but even when I had under 2 mil SP I still topped the leaderboard, it wasn't in kills like it is now (I usually did 0.86) it was smart placement of drop uplinks, staying to the outside and hacking objectives, picking off the lone guy here and there, sometimes I would rep and stay in the middle of a group but I could usually pull over 1000 warpoints a game. Use equalizers like remotes, it doesn't matter what suit they have if they walk into a bomb.
howard sanchez YELLOWCAB SERVICES 895	Posted - 2014.04.23 13:58:00 - [27] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: No thanks. When I run a proto suit I know I can only die once or risk losing more than I gain But this also makes the game boring! Everyone fears to lose too many isk and the entire game solves into a giant camp fest. Or The few proto users will easily outmatch the others "poors" Or Sniping the entire match Wrong answer. Boring is what you get when everyone can run anything they want with little to no risk of loss ( which is the same as easily replaced because you have so much isk). The proto stomp crowd will only make things worse for Dust if the value and scarcity of isk is reduced. The choice players must face when deciding to bring better gear to a fight should matter. That choice only matters when the gear has value and the potential loss of that gear could impact the player financially. CCP, I pray, understand this. If CCP present some kind of economic discussion of New Eden at fan fest, like they often do, I really hope DUST's place in that equation will be revealed. By the way CCP, when are you planning to tell us anything about fan fest and what we can expect??
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 1829	Posted - 2014.04.23 14:08:00 - [28] - Quote We would be better with a comprehensive Salvage and Blueprint system to compliment a Player Market. BPO's are one of the worst things in DUST. For both the Economy and every day game competitiveness, Having people run around in BPO suits, with little regard for death or using competitive suits with competition makes the Proto stomping thing even easier for the average player. Because their competition is even more statistically inferior. BPO's in EVE online is merely a material List to Craft Said Item. DUST needs this. So when you kill a Minmatar Logistics, You then get a piece of salvage from the Minmatar suit and the weapons,fittings she/he had. To then be combined with a Blueprint or Blueprint copy to craft said items. Meaning who you kill and what results in a higher pay per match in the salvage parts you collected. Blueprint copies would need to be seeded on the market by CCP at the start to set a decent price margin for new players to get into the crafting system. The Player Market could then sell assembled Items, or the salvage parts themselfs. Player Market really opens up DUST 514. No FPS game on the console could even closely offer an EVE style market.. Even a dumbed down version.. We start adding crafting to this.. And DUST becomes so much more then just a lobby shooter.
howard sanchez YELLOWCAB SERVICES 895	Posted - 2014.04.23 14:12:00 - [29] - Quote Aszazel wrote: I made 369K in one match last night, and the one guy I was running with made 420K. We wondered why our team was doing so badly then we realized that it was 5 vs 16. The rest had quit or gone afk. But him and I stayed, I started using my advanced suit after I lost my first proto and he only died once cause he is better at retreating then me. Anyways for those that don't know, isk payout is based on the gear you're wearing vs the gear the enemy is, how many warpoints you get and where you place in the rankings. The cost of all the equipment and gear that the enemy team brings in is put against your and how well you do determines how much you get, that is why it's worth losing a couple of suicide militia fits with remote explosives to take out 2 or 3 protos. The entire game is stacked against newbs but even when I had under 2 mil SP I still topped the leaderboard, it wasn't in kills like it is now (I usually did 0.86) it was smart placement of drop uplinks, staying to the outside and hacking objectives, picking off the lone guy here and there, sometimes I would rep and stay in the middle of a group but I could usually pull over 1000 warpoints a game. Use equalizers like remotes, it doesn't matter what suit they have if they walk into a bomb. Good example Aszazel. It points out clearly that there are many ways to excel in this game. It's not all about KDr, topping charts and stomping noobs. I often run in a squad with several Teamplayers who love thier proto gear. One fine gentleman, Ruthra, went 54:8 last nite in a pub match vs Subreddit. I went 2:4 in that match and I lost 2 dropships. I earned 111k isk which is slightly below my avg for a pub skirmish. Ruthra earned over 400k. His outfit runs close to 160k each. Mine costs less than 15k and the dropships cost 57k So, we both lost isk and failed to profit. But the proto gear runner lost a ton more isk. After the match we discussed the pros and cons and while he could clearly see the economic logic in running cheaper gear there was no way he would do it. Dust for him is about the thrill of going 54:8 and razing that other team. And if his corp pays him for PC matches or he rings for another group he can stay in proto. But not if he just goes it alone. This is what I am talking about. The lack of profitability when running great gear is what makes Ruthra, Forsaken, Vonspliff and others into true mercs. Guys like me will pay them for what they can bring but they need guys with isk in order to bring it consistently. This is a good thing! Balance is NOT giving everything to everyone. It's that precarious point between competing interests ( gain vs loss). That's what keeps the engines turning.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14308	Posted - 2014.04.23 14:26:00 - [30] - Quote And people wonder why I support teiricide. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

howard sanchez YELLOWCAB SERVICES 895	Posted - 2014.04.23 14:41:00 - [31] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: And people wonder why I support teiricide. Why? Artificial segregation of players and gear might help level the playing field in each little pond you split the game into. But if you want a dynamic, organic system of warfare wherein choices about what to bring to the fight are seriously made based on loss and gain potential then tiericide, gear restrictions and other mechanisms won't help These approaches could make each game mode you apply them to more 'balanced' within that smaller segregated portion of Dust. But you give up that open sandbox nature that CCP has promoted. IWS, I will admit that I my opinion of how to balance the sandbox has evolved over the years but recently I see potential for an open sandbox with the primary restriction being Isk scarcity. If CCP wants to keep player options unrestricted then they must keep isk scarce and valuable. Alternatively they can create little walls throughout our playpen and tell us where and with what toys we can play.
R F Gyro Clones 4u 1303	Posted - 2014.04.23 14:42:00 - [32] - Quote In my view, prototype suits should be so expensive that almost no-one can afford to run them all the time. Militia & basic gear is for new starters, advanced is for established players. Proto is for going the extra mile every now and then, when winning is more important than making ISK. There are a few places this doesn't quite work though. One significant one for me, as a logi, is the fact that only proto suits have 4 equipment slots. Give the advanced logi suits a 4th equipment slot and I'd almost never run proto. I'm sure there are other situations where proto suits enable something that is just not possible with advanced; scan precision thresholds spring to mind as an example. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14310	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:04:00 - [33] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: And people wonder why I support teiricide. Why? Artificial segregation of players and gear might help level the playing field in each little pond you split the game into. But if you want a dynamic, organic system of warfare wherein choices about what to bring to the fight are seriously made based on loss and gain potential then tiericide, gear restrictions and other mechanisms won't help These approaches could make each game mode you apply them to more 'balanced' within that smaller segregated portion of Dust. But you give up that open sandbox nature that CCP has promoted. IWS, I will admit that I my opinion of how to balance the sandbox has evolved over the years but recently I see potential for an open sandbox with the primary restriction being Isk scarcity. If CCP wants to keep player options unrestricted then they must keep isk scarce and valuable. Alternatively they can create little walls throughout our playpen and tell us where and with what toys we can play. I rather the game be more about roles over bling. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Smooth Assassin Stardust Incorporation IMMORTAL REGIME 1324	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:12:00 - [34] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. They have tons of ISK to feed themselves. *Assassination is my thing.*
LT Dans Legs Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 398	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:14:00 - [35] - Quote Payout for pubs are bs. To Live Is To Die
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 1430	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:22:00 - [36] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. So the current system where a section of the playerbase has unlimited cash while the rest slowly go broke or are forced to run crap gear is better? Yes I understand that more people in proto is bad for new players, but lets be honest, there are very few new players. Now how many newer players (mid Uprising to current) are going to stick with the game long term when they show stubbornness to play through this junk game long enough, getting stomped on by vets, they finally get the SP for proto suits and weapons.....and then they can't even afford to use them. Pub payouts are too low, the only thing to play for in this game is SP for better and different gear and guns. If you can't even afford to use the stuff you played so long for then this game really has no point at all. Increase pub payouts or introduce other ways for the majority of the playerbase to make ISK. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 1430	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:30:00 - [37] - Quote http://assets.enjin.com/wall_embed_images/1398186177_image.jpg Totally stolen from my corpmate Sev Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 420	Posted - 2014.04.23 16:54:00 - [38] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: howard sanchez wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: And people wonder why I support teiricide. Why? Artificial segregation of players and gear might help level the playing field in each little pond you split the game into. But if you want a dynamic, organic system of warfare wherein choices about what to bring to the fight are seriously made based on loss and gain potential then tiericide, gear restrictions and other mechanisms won't help These approaches could make each game mode you apply them to more 'balanced' within that smaller segregated portion of Dust. But you give up that open sandbox nature that CCP has promoted. IWS, I will admit that I my opinion of how to balance the sandbox has evolved over the years but recently I see potential for an open sandbox with the primary restriction being Isk scarcity. If CCP wants to keep player options unrestricted then they must keep isk scarce and valuable. Alternatively they can create little walls throughout our playpen and tell us where and with what toys we can play. I rather the game be more about roles over bling. Bling = officer weapons. PRO modules, suits, and weapons are not '$bling$'. You can't expect most players to give up a competitive edge because it isn't as cost effective as STD. Cutting the ISK supply doesn't automatically fix the tier challenges, it simply encourages alt ISK farming and AUR purchasing (I have some shiny new ACRs that'd normally cost 77k ISK, now only 20AUR). The market will support some level of this profiteering. The risk vs reward dynamic is unique and valuable, but can't stand alone. We need character progression and meaningful/investment worthy differentiation to affect the costs, the tiers. The whole point of skill sheets and SP points and skill levels is to create a tiered initiation. 'Roles' are in btw. We have scouts actually scouting (omni scanning), logi reps, heavy tanks, commando DPS, assault something with unique racial weapon proficiency etc. There's n00b versions at STD and MLT, and competitive ADV / PRO. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14311	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:06:00 - [39] - Quote Current System Copper = bling Silver = moar bling Gold = much bling Platinum = mostest bling Purposed System Rock vs Paper vs Scissors CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1173	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:36:00 - [40] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Current System Copper = bling Silver = moar bling Gold = much bling Platinum = mostest bling Purposed System Rock vs Paper vs Scissors ? But ccp lowered payouts in 1.5 or 1.6 I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears

Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 4000	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:36:00 - [41] - Quote Or you could run a bazillion MLT fits. No.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3615	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:38:00 - [42] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: howard sanchez wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: And people wonder why I support teiricide. Why? Artificial segregation of players and gear might help level the playing field in each little pond you split the game into. But if you want a dynamic, organic system of warfare wherein choices about what to bring to the fight are seriously made based on loss and gain potential then tiericide, gear restrictions and other mechanisms won't help These approaches could make each game mode you apply them to more 'balanced' within that smaller segregated portion of Dust. But you give up that open sandbox nature that CCP has promoted. IWS, I will admit that I my opinion of how to balance the sandbox has evolved over the years but recently I see potential for an open sandbox with the primary restriction being Isk scarcity. If CCP wants to keep player options unrestricted then they must keep isk scarce and valuable. Alternatively they can create little walls throughout our playpen and tell us where and with what toys we can play. I rather the game be more about roles over bling. You're in the wrong game universe then. Bling is required because destruction of bling is griefing, as is the use of bling to crush those without bling. That has always been the first and most prevalent conflict driver of EVE, and it is the number one tear bringer of Dust. Conflict drivers are necessary, tear creation is necessary, and a steep barrier to entry is necessary. Even when it bars the majority of players. If you remove those things then the game becomes a different property altogether, and it no longer works as part of New Eden culture. If anything at all needs to happen, there needs to be proper stat tracking and immediate feedback as far as ISK/AUR destruction goes. Griefing being the number 1 motivator for the game universe, when you can't measure just how much you're griefing someone the formula does not function as well as it does in EVE.
Be'e Po Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 13	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:45:00 - [43] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: shaman oga wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: KalOfTheRathi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. So you support CCP/Shanghai over players? Just asking. I think you are completely wrong. No surprise right? Well the problem with the current ISK payout scheme is any below sixth place or so get the shaft. The further down you go the worse it is. Good ISK payout seems tied to destruction of equipment, at least that is what happened when my ISK rewards are at their highest. One used to be able to make a profit if a decent strategy and play style could be developed. Since the first of the year CCP/Shanghai has significantly cut the ISK payout. Distinctly, directly and repeatedly. The change on the battlefield is obvious. Many Mercs pull back once they have lost too much. Then the rest QQ about their Berries not doing anything. Well, duh! The more suits they lose means they will not only lose the battle but take a financial loss as well. CCP/Shanghai choked off the ISK, probably because many from Beta had millions and PC Corps do as well. Now, this is the resulting change in game behavior. New Berries and those needing to grind in this grinder to end all grinders want to do it and still be able to buy the hugely over priced Skill Books. Because you cannot Skill into a branch of the skill tree without the original Skill Book. Reap. Sow. You know the drill. Although, maybe CCP/Shanghai doesn't. So how many officer fitted ships can you lose in a row? I don't know how death is frequent in EVE but i'm sure that is less frequent than DUST. Comparing a space RPG to a FPS have no sense. You're missing the point. I can lose 10 T2/meta 4 fit frigs a day based on my daily income of 150 mil from t2 mod production. This translates to about 3 battlecruisers, or 1/2 a normal battleship. The problem isn't mission payouts. The problem is the lack of secondary revenue sources for the majority of us. There is no Indy in Dust. I can't invent and sell Advanced Combat Rifles or reverse engineer Proto suits. I can't buy exotic dancers in Khanid prime for 20k isk and sell them in Jita for 80k. I can't salvage sleeper wrecks, hoping for melted nanoribbons. I can't even do PI. Now granted, Dust needs gameplay fixes. But it also really needs, to be a true MMO, is a secondary crafting/market/Indy setup. Let us make money in ways other than just blowing each other up. And, by us, I mean us on an individual level, not PC which may have its own issues.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 888	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:45:00 - [44] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. You are joking right? Someone on here posted that iin like 10 days or so DNS made 30 bil isk.... 30 billion. That is 520,833 proto suits for doing nothing except bluing up. Yet you think higher pub payouts would be a problem..... Fixing swarms
Thumb Green The Valyrian Guard 966	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:46:00 - [45] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. Personally I think part of the proto stomping issue is that there's only a few people (relatively) that can afford to lose a handful of protos in a match. They say fight fire with fire but you can't if you can't afford what you need to start a fire. Support Orbital Spawns
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14311	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:47:00 - [46] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. You are joking right? Someone on here posted that iin like 10 days or so DNS made 30 bil isk.... 30 billion. That is 520,833 proto suits for doing nothing except bluing up. Yet you think higher pub payouts would be a problem..... You do know protostomping existed well before PC existed right? CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1175	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:50:00 - [47] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. You are joking right? Someone on here posted that iin like 10 days or so DNS made 30 bil isk.... 30 billion. That is 520,833 proto suits for doing nothing except bluing up. Yet you think higher pub payouts would be a problem..... You do know protostomping existed well before PC existed right? Increasing isk wont increase stomping, it will help people use proto against them and not get Super-pissed-off from losing one. I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 520	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:52:00 - [48] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. So the current system where a section of the playerbase has unlimited cash while the rest slowly go broke or are forced to run crap gear is better? Yes I understand that more people in proto is bad for new players, but lets be honest, there are very few new players. Now how many newer players (mid Uprising to current) are going to stick with the game long term when they show stubbornness to play through this junk game long enough, getting stomped on by vets, they finally get the SP for proto suits and weapons.....and then they can't even afford to use them. Pub payouts are too low, the only thing to play for in this game is SP for better and different gear and guns. If you can't even afford to use the stuff you played so long for then this game really has no point at all. Increase pub payouts or introduce other ways for the majority of the playerbase to make ISK. The better solution is to remove passive ISK creation. Because, that's why.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14311	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:52:00 - [49] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. You are joking right? Someone on here posted that iin like 10 days or so DNS made 30 bil isk.... 30 billion. That is 520,833 proto suits for doing nothing except bluing up. Yet you think higher pub payouts would be a problem..... You do know protostomping existed well before PC existed right? Increasing isk wont increase stomping, it will help people use proto against them and not get Super-pissed-off from losing one. Really? I dont' see it fixing the problem just exacerbating it further. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1175	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:56:00 - [50] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. You are joking right? Someone on here posted that iin like 10 days or so DNS made 30 bil isk.... 30 billion. That is 520,833 proto suits for doing nothing except bluing up. Yet you think higher pub payouts would be a problem..... You do know protostomping existed well before PC existed right? Increasing isk wont increase stomping, it will help people use proto against them and not get Super-pissed-off from losing one. Really? I dont' see it fixing the problem just exacerbating it further. I'd pull out my proto to combat proto if I didnt die once and go negative Proto has a small increase if effectiveness for alot more price, not worth it And lol proto doesn't stomp, ive stomped in std gear with my squad. I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14311	Posted - 2014.04.23 17:58:00 - [51] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: I'd pull out my proto to combat proto if I didnt die once and go negative Proto has a small increase if effectiveness for alot more price, not worth it And lol proto doesn't stomp, ive stomped in std gear with my squad. Thank you for defeating the OP's argument. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 521	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:00:00 - [52] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: howard sanchez wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: And people wonder why I support teiricide. Why? Artificial segregation of players and gear might help level the playing field in each little pond you split the game into. But if you want a dynamic, organic system of warfare wherein choices about what to bring to the fight are seriously made based on loss and gain potential then tiericide, gear restrictions and other mechanisms won't help These approaches could make each game mode you apply them to more 'balanced' within that smaller segregated portion of Dust. But you give up that open sandbox nature that CCP has promoted. IWS, I will admit that I my opinion of how to balance the sandbox has evolved over the years but recently I see potential for an open sandbox with the primary restriction being Isk scarcity. If CCP wants to keep player options unrestricted then they must keep isk scarce and valuable. Alternatively they can create little walls throughout our playpen and tell us where and with what toys we can play. I rather the game be more about roles over bling. You're in the wrong game universe then. Bling is required because destruction of bling is griefing, as is the use of bling to crush those without bling. That has always been the first and most prevalent conflict driver of EVE, and it is the number one tear bringer of Dust. Conflict drivers are necessary, tear creation is necessary, and a steep barrier to entry is necessary. Even when it bars the majority of players. If you remove those things then the game becomes a different property altogether, and it no longer works as part of New Eden culture. If anything at all needs to happen, there needs to be proper stat tracking and immediate feedback as far as ISK/AUR destruction goes. Griefing being the number 1 motivator for the game universe, when you can't measure just how much you're griefing someone the formula does not function as well as it does in EVE. I agree that not enough emphasis is placed on ISK. We should, at the very least show ISK gain and loss on the leaderboard. And we need to remove district payouts. Because, that's why.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 890	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:00:00 - [53] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. You are joking right? Someone on here posted that iin like 10 days or so DNS made 30 bil isk.... 30 billion. That is 520,833 proto suits for doing nothing except bluing up. Yet you think higher pub payouts would be a problem..... You do know protostomping existed well before PC existed right? So instead of answer the question, you avoid it.... Once again, how would a small increase in payouts (for enormous effort) be any worse than one group of players getting 52,083 protosuits EVERY DAY (for no effort)? EDIT: Here let me expand on that. I play alot of pubs, you know what i have noticed? All of the groups who are no longer in PC seem to protostomp a whole hell of alot less. Fixing swarms
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1176	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:01:00 - [54] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: I'd pull out my proto to combat proto if I didnt die once and go negative Proto has a small increase if effectiveness for alot more price, not worth it And lol proto doesn't stomp, ive stomped in std gear with my squad. Thank you for defeating the OP's argument. ? But proto needs it price cut in half I want to run proto but its not worth it nor can I bring out my proto to combat proto, reason I never use proto forges. I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears
Thumb Green The Valyrian Guard 970	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:04:00 - [55] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Increasing isk wont increase stomping, it will help people use proto against them and not get Super-pissed-off from losing one. Really? I dont' see it fixing the problem just exacerbating it further. I'm not surprised you don't see how allowing more people to fight proto with proto would help; you have always been awfully dense. Oh and another thing, Iron Wolf Saber wrote: What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. Your job as a member of CPM is to tell CCP what the players are demanding; not to tell the players what they should be demanding. Support Orbital Spawns
Delanus Turgias Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 421	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:07:00 - [56] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. Bull-*****-, IWS. You know just as well as I do that increased payouts would actually make protostomps less insane, because now the other side can afford to counter with their own proto against the PC farmers. We both know that increased payouts are just a bandaid on a complex issue, but you can go ** yourself if you think increased payout will make the protostomp worse. I can't wait until you're gone from the CPM. Closed Beta Vet since May, 2012 TEST Alliance Best Alliance Proud owner of essentially every BPO in Dust
Heavenly Daughter the Aurum Grinder and Company 405	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:12:00 - [57] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. Making things cheaper don't fix the issue, it's enough of a spam fest lag game now and you want to make it even more disposable. NO ! INCREASE COST, make better payouts. be rewarded for less deaths not visa versa. The prices may not have increased but cost has, the number of deaths related to scouts and cloaks has affected cost of suits and equipment. I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice a drop in ISK. The Organ Grinder & Co. EVE Heavenly Daughter-Merc Records
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1177	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:14:00 - [58] - Quote Heavenly Daughter wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. Making things cheaper don't fix the issue, it's enough of a spam fest lag game now and you want to make it even more disposable. NO ! INCREASE COST, make better payouts. be rewarded for less deaths not visa versa. Worst. Idea. Yet. Increase pay baxk to 1.5 Half price of proto I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears
Ander Thedas Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 538	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:16:00 - [59] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather the game be more about roles over bling. I actually disagree with you here, IWS. I think the economy is the most important part of this game and "roles" are designed to be more of a guideline than anything else. ISK is what moves the great wheels of New Eden. This to me is the true excitement that DUST has over other games. I love maximizing my ISKv profitability and marginalizing that aspect of the game would be a disastrous decision. Omnia mutantur nihil interit FW lvl10 reward
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 349	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:28:00 - [60] - Quote I am tired of seeing this conversation played out by people that have not even taken the time to look at how the ISK payouts work. Quote: FROM: DUST 514: WAR AND PROFIT ISK is the primary currency in the EVE Universe and a necessity for fighting wars. You will earn ISK from each battle you fight. The size of the reward depends on your contribution and the cost of the battle. Those who contribute more are rewarded handsomely, but all mercs are guaranteed a solid income. A portion of the reward pool for each battle depends on the value of items destroyed in the battle. If the battle saw countless vehicles and expensive prototype gear destroyed, everyone is in for bigger rewards. ISK rewards are calculated as follows for each participant: Base rewards: Every mercenary receives basic compensation for each battle they fight. The size of the reward depends on the time you spent fighting, so joining a battle late will net you lower earnings. Value of objects destroyed in battle has no bearing on this part of the reward. Team rewards: The total rewards calculated from the value destroyed are split between the participating teams, with the winning team earning a larger share. Then, each participant earns a cut of the total rewards that their team received based on the time they spent in the battle. If youGÇÖre late to the party, youGÇÖll earn a smaller cut. Individual rewards: Finally, every participant receives a reward based on their individual contribution on the battlefield. Mercs earn war points based on their actions in the course of each battle, and the more war points you score, the higher your cut of the total payout. Having a solid income is necessary, as you will be using the ISK you earn to buy upgrades, and to resupply any gear you lose during combat. Everything you take into battle in DUST 514 can get destroyed. Luckily, most items are in ready supply should you have the cash. The system would work perfectly if matchmaking was not such a crap storm. If you want higher payouts run more expensive suits and win. BPOs do not hurt the economy as they have the assigned value of their equivalent market item and contribute this to the pot. The price of suits really does not matter as it all funnels back around anyway. Either run your highest comfortable equipment and force others to do the same in turn keep spamming militia suits padding others KDRs. IWS: Seriously you are suppose to be a representative for the community yet you cast down uninformed advise instead of looking at what players are saying. You should be ashamed of yourself.

shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1925	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:31:00 - [61] - Quote The point of the whole thread was about the possibility for the average medium player to use TWO (not 10) proto suit in match and still have a LITTLE PROFIT. KEY WORDS: TWO DEATHS IN PROTO (+deaths with lower tier suits) LITTLE PROFIT More isk for everybody means that even players in non-PC corps will be able to gain a little more to counter proto with proto or just to play with a damn suit you need 2 months to unlock. It's like having a Ferrari, but not have the money for the fuel, if you buy a Ferrari but you don't have money for the fuel, you'll feel a little..... The unnamed new build it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes.. \o/ summon me
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14312	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:32:00 - [62] - Quote If economy is so important would it be better to spend it on a persons skill and abilities and cost of effect rather than just they're well geared? And in a secondary market what would be more powerful for purchase? An item that you want that will help you do your job in a more diverse and better way? Or an item that is just your item +1? What if loot tables had nothing but Medium LIght and Heavy k. 0's? Also the topic of focus is too narrow minded leaves the entire other half of the field off. Most in particular the Vehicles. Ultimately why I say this will exacerbate the problem is that you're going to get more players who will be more reckless because they can afford to do so. Increasing pay just makes death is painful to death is painless at all levels leading to blue berry behavior at all levels of game play. If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. Unfortunately the current npc prices do not properly support the idealism of risk vs reward. Base Frames are not cheaper than the specialists. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14312	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:33:00 - [63] - Quote shaman oga wrote: The point of the whole thread was about the possibility for the average medium player to use TWO (not 10) proto suit in match and still have a LITTLE PROFIT. KEY WORDS: TWO DEATHS IN PROTO (+deaths with lower tier suits) LITTLE PROFIT Lousy Lock words No death much profit HAV CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1182	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:36:00 - [64] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: If economy is so important would it be better to spend it on a persons skill and abilities and cost of effect rather than just they're well geared? And in a secondary market what would be more powerful for purchase? An item that you want that will help you do your job in a more diverse and better way? Or an item that is just your item +1? What if loot tables had nothing but Medium LIght and Heavy k. 0's? Also the topic of focus is too narrow minded leaves the entire other half of the field off. Most in particular the Vehicles. Ultimately why I say this will exacerbate the problem is that you're going to get more players who will be more reckless because they can afford to do so. Increasing pay just makes death is painful to death is painless at all levels leading to blue berry behavior at all levels of game play. If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. Unfortunately the current npc prices do not properly support the idealism of risk vs reward. Base Frames are not cheaper than the specialists. I can not explain how stupid I would feel if I typed the last half of that Having cheaper proto wouldn't change how I play. I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears
Delanus Turgias Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 425	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:37:00 - [65] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: If economy is so important would it be better to spend it on a persons skill and abilities and cost of effect rather than just they're well geared? And in a secondary market what would be more powerful for purchase? An item that you want that will help you do your job in a more diverse and better way? Or an item that is just your item +1? What if loot tables had nothing but Medium LIght and Heavy k. 0's? Also the topic of focus is too narrow minded leaves the entire other half of the field off. Most in particular the Vehicles. Ultimately why I say this will exacerbate the problem is that you're going to get more players who will be more reckless because they can afford to do so. Increasing pay just makes death is painful to death is painless at all levels leading to blue berry behavior at all levels of game play. If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. Unfortunately the current npc prices do not properly support the idealism of risk vs reward. Base Frames are not cheaper than the specialists. I'll admit I didn't take vehicles into account, but that can be solved by making militia HAVs cost 130-150k ISK again and making basic HAVs cost 300k. And I don't think you understand, IWS, that there is no economy. Until there is, none of your other points have merit. This is a simple fix that is also easily reversed if an economy were ever to come into play later. Don't ruin the here-and-now because you're worried about a potential future that is years away. Closed Beta Vet since May, 2012 TEST Alliance Best Alliance Proud owner of essentially every BPO in Dust
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1925	Posted - 2014.04.23 18:38:00 - [66] - Quote Sorry IWS, it's not always easy to express my opinion in a language different from mine, i have to use little tricks like underlinded words or caps lock. The unnamed new build it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes.. \o/ summon me
Ander Thedas Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 540	Posted - 2014.04.23 19:07:00 - [67] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: If economy is so important would it be better to spend it on a persons skill and abilities and cost of effect rather than just they're well geared? And in a secondary market what would be more powerful for purchase? An item that you want that will help you do your job in a more diverse and better way? Or an item that is just your item +1? What if loot tables had nothing but Medium LIght and Heavy k. 0's? Also the topic of focus is too narrow minded leaves the entire other half of the field off. Most in particular the Vehicles. Ultimately why I say this will exacerbate the problem is that you're going to get more players who will be more reckless because they can afford to do so. Increasing pay just makes death is painful to death is painless at all levels leading to blue berry behavior at all levels of game play. If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. Unfortunately the current npc prices do not properly support the idealism of risk vs reward. Base Frames are not cheaper than the specialists. Minus the poor phrasing he does have a point here. I personally think the ISK payout for battles are almost in a pretty solid spot when you take into account that your play style dictates your rewards more than anything else. When I play smart, pay attention to the flow of battle and choose my encounters wisely I don't die much and wind up being pretty useful to the team. When I get on tilt and just rambo-slam my body into the enemy team I wind up earning pretty much the same WP/game but simply dying a lot more, thus costing me heaps more to the point where even my STD only suits (which I run 99% of the time) might start seeing a dwindling income. Effectively I have limited my costs in terms of both the suits I run (I currently alternate between a 7,700 ISK suit and a 14,300 ISK suit depending on battle conditions) and choose to play smarter rather than harder. The result is that I actually make money and sometimes have a surprisingly low number of deaths resulting in almost pure profit. Also bear in mind I lone wolf it more than half the time, too, so adding a healthy supporting squad behind you could only increase that effectiveness. I think our problem here is all the mercs are always looking how to strain upwards to more advanced gear thinking the answer lies there. Maybe the answer is pushing in the opposite direction and finding harmony with using less. It's what drives me, but I am simply one soldier and this is simply one of many stories. Omnia mutantur nihil interit FW lvl10 reward
howard sanchez YELLOWCAB SERVICES 898	Posted - 2014.04.23 19:46:00 - [68] - Quote +10 likes for Ander's post above. It is encouraging to hear your own play style and outcomes reiterated by other successful mercs. I cannot agree more that the truest way to Dust-fu is to do more with less. Proto gear is out there...we know. Yes you have all the level Vs you could want, you earned it...we get it. Want to run proto non-stop? Go ahead. It should cost you. What's next? Feel entitled enough to demand full officer gear at militia prices? Tighten the faucets and open the sinks! Don't fix issues by throwing bigger payouts at them. Want more isk? Give us player trading! Prices can only realistically be lower than what the NPC market offers at first. Then we can make the market economy real by allowing Dust mercs to move, trade and fight thier way throughout the systems of New Eden. Bigger payouts are the selfish and shortsighted fix that will only support the protostomping culture.
Cenex Langly D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 720	Posted - 2014.04.23 19:57:00 - [69] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. Cheaper fits would result in the increased use of prototype gear... Having the payout change from being based on what is killed to what the player does (WP earnings) means that if a player scores a huge WP game then they will receive a high payout, if they do nothing in the game then they get paid very little. This doesn't have anything to do with what people use in game, it actually encourages participation. Snippers will get paid a lot less for doing nothing and a logi or slayer will be rewarded a lot higher for being in the action doing all the work. You can do very well in a militia suit if your a good player, which equates to a higher profit margin. If you want to run proto and have a decent game your profit margin will be less because you will have lost more money, thus giving the players an opportunity to use lower tier gear to make larger amounts of profit and allow players to use higher tier proto gear to either maintain an equivalent ISK balance if they are decent or lose a small amount of profit if they are bad players. This is in the best interest of everyone and not just those who use proto gear all the time. In conclusion, IWS, you need to think before you comment and not comment before you think. Newb
howard sanchez YELLOWCAB SERVICES 899	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:20:00 - [70] - Quote Reading is fundamental

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3616	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:22:00 - [71] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. There is hardly anything passive about defending territory 24/7 and making sure your team is the best one on the field. So if we're not gaining monetary rewards from holding districts, or something that can be exchanged for money, what the hell should we even bother for? E-honour? Not worth the trouble. No one will care. I do hope you weren't seriously suggesting that.
Delanus Turgias Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 429	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:30:00 - [72] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: +10 likes for Ander's post above. It is encouraging to hear your own play style and outcomes reiterated by other successful mercs. I cannot agree more that the truest way to Dust-fu is to do more with less. Proto gear is out there...we know. Yes you have all the level Vs you could want, you earned it...we get it. Want to run proto non-stop? Go ahead. It should cost you. What's next? Feel entitled enough to demand full officer gear at militia prices? Tighten the faucets and open the sinks! Don't fix issues by throwing bigger payouts at them. Want more isk? Give us player trading! Prices can only realistically be lower than what the NPC market offers at first. Then we can make the market economy real by allowing Dust mercs to move, trade and fight thier way throughout the systems of New Eden. Bigger payouts are the selfish and shortsighted fix that will only support the protostomping culture. Again, you're missing the point. Economy would be great, everyone agrees with that. But industry is years away and player trading isn't much closer. For those with functionally limitless ISK reserves (Read: DNS and the better PC Ringers), price is nothing. It only limits those who have high SP but not high payroll. So increasing payout in regular matches would allow a merc with 10mil SP to compete toe-to-toe with a merc that has 50mil SP and 10mil ISK/day income, at least in terms of gear. You can't buy skill. But closing the ISK gap will mean that everyone can use proto, which, when everyone is doing so, isn't actually a problem. You call it shortsighted, but it's also short-term. When contracts are actually paid by EvE Players or Dust Mercs and gear is produced by the same, you can bet that none of this will matter. Closed Beta Vet since May, 2012 TEST Alliance Best Alliance Proud owner of essentially every BPO in Dust
Delanus Turgias Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 429	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:33:00 - [73] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. There is hardly anything passive about defending territory 24/7 and making sure your team is the best one on the field. So if we're not gaining monetary rewards from holding districts, or something that can be exchanged for money, what the hell should we even bother for? E-honour? Not worth the trouble. No one will care. I do hope you weren't seriously suggesting that. I believe he's referring more to the creation of industry and actually having to do work to get ISK from the resources you earn in PC, rather then removing ISK flow from PC altogether. Surely you aren't opposed to actually doing work? Closed Beta Vet since May, 2012 TEST Alliance Best Alliance Proud owner of essentially every BPO in Dust
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3616	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:42:00 - [74] - Quote Delanus Turgias wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. There is hardly anything passive about defending territory 24/7 and making sure your team is the best one on the field. So if we're not gaining monetary rewards from holding districts, or something that can be exchanged for money, what the hell should we even bother for? E-honour? Not worth the trouble. No one will care. I do hope you weren't seriously suggesting that. I believe he's referring more to the creation of industry and actually having to do work to get ISK from the resources you earn in PC, rather then removing ISK flow from PC altogether. Surely you aren't opposed to actually doing work? Fighting and maintaining a top team is work. Coordinating with allies to fill battles on stacked timers or weaker hours is work. I do not blame you for not knowing this, as you are not in a position to. But it is work. More work than the average capsuleer puts into just about any lucrative endeavor. Industry is cool and should be a thing we can do on the side but let's not degrade the value of what we already have to do to maintain territory. It is work.
howard sanchez YELLOWCAB SERVICES 902	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:45:00 - [75] - Quote Delanus Turgias wrote: howard sanchez wrote: +10 likes for Ander's post above. It is encouraging to hear your own play style and outcomes reiterated by other successful mercs. I cannot agree more that the truest way to Dust-fu is to do more with less. Proto gear is out there...we know. Yes you have all the level Vs you could want, you earned it...we get it. Want to run proto non-stop? Go ahead. It should cost you. What's next? Feel entitled enough to demand full officer gear at militia prices? Tighten the faucets and open the sinks! Don't fix issues by throwing bigger payouts at them. Want more isk? Give us player trading! Prices can only realistically be lower than what the NPC market offers at first. Then we can make the market economy real by allowing Dust mercs to move, trade and fight thier way throughout the systems of New Eden. Bigger payouts are the selfish and shortsighted fix that will only support the protostomping culture. Again, you're missing the point. Economy would be great, everyone agrees with that. But industry is years away and player trading isn't much closer. For those with functionally limitless ISK reserves (Read: DNS and the better PC Ringers), price is nothing. It only limits those who have high SP but not high payroll. So increasing payout in regular matches would allow a merc with 10mil SP to compete toe-to-toe with a merc that has 50mil SP and 10mil ISK/day income, at least in terms of gear. You can't buy skill. But closing the ISK gap will mean that everyone can use proto, which, when everyone is doing so, isn't actually a problem. You call it shortsighted, but it's also short-term. When contracts are actually paid by EvE Players or Dust Mercs and gear is produced by the same, you can bet that none of this will matter. I would argue that player trading and a player market is definitely not years off. In fact, if those things are more than 6 months off then there will be many bad time ahead for Dust. I agree with you that the current broken system that is PC along with CCPs terrible handling of that uncontrolled isk faucet is game breaking. CCP must fix the uneven and exploitable isk faucets including the alt-clone farming. These things have to happen very soon. But once they fix the faucets and release additional isk earning/isk saving mechanisms (trading/market) then economic factors will begin further balancing the gear diversity in pub matches. Let's not balance the game we have today- too many broken features. Fix the foundation and build on that
Rusty Shallows 1636	Posted - 2014.04.23 22:12:00 - [76] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: howard sanchez wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: And people wonder why I support teiricide. Why? Artificial segregation of players and gear might help level the playing field in each little pond you split the game into. But if you want a dynamic, organic system of warfare wherein choices about what to bring to the fight are seriously made based on loss and gain potential then tiericide, gear restrictions and other mechanisms won't help These approaches could make each game mode you apply them to more 'balanced' within that smaller segregated portion of Dust. But you give up that open sandbox nature that CCP has promoted. IWS, I will admit that I my opinion of how to balance the sandbox has evolved over the years but recently I see potential for an open sandbox with the primary restriction being Isk scarcity. If CCP wants to keep player options unrestricted then they must keep isk scarce and valuable. Alternatively they can create little walls throughout our playpen and tell us where and with what toys we can play. I rather the game be more about roles over bling. You're in the wrong game universe then. Bling is required because destruction of bling is griefing, as is the use of bling to crush those without bling. That has always been the first and most prevalent conflict driver of EVE, and it is the number one tear bringer of Dust. Conflict drivers are necessary, tear creation is necessary, and a steep barrier to entry is necessary. Even when it bars the majority of players. If you remove those things then the game becomes a different property altogether, and it no longer works as part of New Eden culture. If anything at all needs to happen, there needs to be proper stat tracking and immediate feedback as far as ISK/AUR destruction goes. Griefing being the number 1 motivator for the game universe, when you can't measure just how much you're griefing someone the formula does not function as well as it does in EVE. Actually he's in the right universe. The Game Architectural Teiricide IWS is talking about is the same kind that the Devs revamped Eve Online with. CCP Shanghai has shown they are willing to do it to vehicles so Dropsuits could easily be next. Best to brace yourself on the chance this is fully ported over to Dust 514. The people who keep saying "player market," are right. That will be a far better tacit gauge of war-kit value and game worth. All we are doing is pretending to be a bunch of economists, not that real ones would be any better. Payouts will likely always be a messy issue. We have so many variables it is impossible to solve for each on of them. My Logi ALT has been in a somewhat bad spot trying to run ADV suits. I finally gave up and used the SP from this last event to train SMGs in order to run a BPO Toxin & 'Sever' Logi. Tough luck to other Logis without nearly perfect fitting skills and BPOs. At least they can still AFK to bridge the difference. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8910	Posted - 2014.04.23 22:17:00 - [77] - Quote STD and ADV should be halved in prices. PRO should stay the same. Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
jerrmy12 kahoalii Proficiency V. 1191	Posted - 2014.04.23 22:31:00 - [78] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: STD and ADV should be halved in prices. PRO should stay the same. Pro should be halved in prices Std and adv should stay the same. I <3 girl gamers Tears, sweet delicious tears
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 1433	Posted - 2014.04.23 22:33:00 - [79] - Quote Delanus Turgias wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. There is hardly anything passive about defending territory 24/7 and making sure your team is the best one on the field. So if we're not gaining monetary rewards from holding districts, or something that can be exchanged for money, what the hell should we even bother for? E-honour? Not worth the trouble. No one will care. I do hope you weren't seriously suggesting that. I believe he's referring more to the creation of industry and actually having to do work to get ISK from the resources you earn in PC, rather then removing ISK flow from PC altogether. Surely you aren't opposed to actually doing work? Of course DNS members are against work, if they wanted to have to work for their ISk they would be fighting each other instead of remaining in the blue donut and farming passive ISK. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Scheneighnay McBob Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4902	Posted - 2014.04.23 22:54:00 - [80] - Quote What in the **** are you running? My standard fits cost between 8K and 15K My advanced are between 20k and 30k Proto I can't really say because I rarely use them and save them for when money is no object. I'm from the weird side of the internet

shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1933	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:22:00 - [81] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: What in the **** are you running? My standard fits cost between 8K and 15K My advanced are between 20k and 30k Proto I can't really say because I rarely use them and save them for when money is no object. I generally use the suit paired with the gun, STD suit with STD weapons and so on. Modules and equipments are another story, i use modules and equipments to fill my PG/CPU, for most expensive equipments like pro hives and uplinks i have dedicated fittings and i usually put them where my team need them and then i switch fit. But generally my fits cost like i have said, i play 90% of the matches with STD suits, i need versatility. Some weapons also requires more than std hives. I don't have isk problems for myself, i generally make profit, but i feel that isk payouts are a little too low. The unnamed new build it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes.. \o/ summon me
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2005	Posted - 2014.04.24 03:24:00 - [82] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: +10 likes for Ander's post above. It is encouraging to hear your own play style and outcomes reiterated by other successful mercs. I cannot agree more that the truest way to Dust-fu is to do more with less. Proto gear is out there...we know. Yes you have all the level Vs you could want, you earned it...we get it. Want to run proto non-stop? Go ahead. It should cost you. What's next? Feel entitled enough to demand full officer gear at militia prices? Tighten the faucets and open the sinks! Don't fix issues by throwing bigger payouts at them. Want more isk? Give us player trading! Prices can only realistically be lower than what the NPC market offers at first. Then we can make the market economy real by allowing Dust mercs to move, trade and fight thier way throughout the systems of New Eden. Bigger payouts are the selfish and shortsighted fix that will only support the protostomping culture. Strongly Agree with this line of reasoning. Proto was always meant to be the gear you pulled out when you were willing to hemorrhage ISK because you needed to win the battle. Reducing the cost cheapens that. Finally, having lots of sp to unlock proto doesn't mean you've earned it, it just means you've been sucking at CCP's passive out-of-match and passive in-match skillpoint teat for long enough. There's only one way to earn proto: get good enough that you can make money with it. If you're not that good then run in a proto pack for the safety factor, like the PC-fuelled pubstompers do. And to those very few who are not PC-fat and who run proto solo, you are the real deal. o7 I support SP rollover.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1248	Posted - 2014.04.24 03:56:00 - [83] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: So how many officer fitted ships can you lose in a row? There are no Officer fitted ships. At least ones that aren't AUR that I know of. I normally use a Maddy that cost 135K although my Derps are 420-480K. I could lose hundreds of tanks or even ADS. But, when lone wolfing with tanks, in either of my tank characters, I normally finish in the top three slots. I only lose the top slots when there are good Logis working with a squad or a great blaster tank or some Slayers ruining the opposing infantry. ADS flying results in lower placement and higher risk. My normal solution is destruction. I destroy tanks, installations and Derps. The new WP solution pays me to do that. It, finally, pays to chase an enemy vehicle away from the local fight. Let them recover and try again. Which I will prevent once again, with luck. LAVs are more difficult to kill. A good LAV driver that is driving a well fitted LAV is nearly impossible to kill. My ISK payment is not the issue. The issue is New Berries that are struggling to survive. Other F2P FPS games allow the New Berries to survive and not go negative. CCP/Shanghai punishes those that do not do well. Harshly. The reason I speak out about this issue is I am often confronted by the ignorati regarding, 'Ha, you lost a lot of ISK when I popped your ADS!'. My reply is with a half billion of ISK I really don't care. Then they get interested and ask how when they can barely keep 500K ISK around. Because that did not used to be true. Doing a decent job and using appropriately priced fits could make a profit. The very necessary profit to buy Skill Books that cost upwards of 1M or more ISK. Now I can make a profit if I don't drop into the tanker vengeance mentality of must use bigger tank to get those that popped me. Sometimes that works but sometimes it is best to wait for another match. When running my alt Heavy I can make 1-2M ISK a day. Even if I drop some MLT tanks to eliminate turrets, which is cheaper than losing an LAV and a FG doing it the old fashion way. Sorry for the delayed response, I didn't get a notify on your reply. I figure that learning to fly ADS has cost me 30M ISK. And so it goes.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1248	Posted - 2014.04.24 04:04:00 - [84] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: We have been discussing what makes Dust such a compelling and addictive game despite its many and varied flaws. I only play Dust because of my friends and voice chat. When they aren't on, I play games that are not broken. Games that are fun because they have few flaws and work as expected. Not broken with issues that are left unresolved nor acknowledged for six months or more. AKA Dust. And so it goes.
Pvt Numnutz R 0 N 1 N 1117	Posted - 2014.04.24 04:43:00 - [85] - Quote I think there should be a higher paying pub as an additional option. The higher paying pub would attract people who wear proto gear as the pay is higher. You can still wear std or adv but there is more incentive to use the higher tiered stuff there, then std pubs would be more for std/adv suits.
wait reloading Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 7	Posted - 2014.04.24 10:57:00 - [86] - Quote you dont need good gear to turn a profit, my primary suit I use cost me >10k and quite often near the top of the leaderboard. Someone posted that they make a couple of million a day - I make about 3 million in 2 hours running solo, I actually give isk away and still have more then when I started that day. Passive bonuses are very helpful but you need to follow through with something you start skilling into
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1936	Posted - 2014.04.24 11:13:00 - [87] - Quote wait reloading wrote: you dont need good gear to turn a profit, my primary suit I use cost me >10k and quite often near the top of the leaderboard. Someone posted that they make a couple of million a day - I make about 3 million in 2 hours running solo, I actually give isk away and still have more then when I started that day. Passive bonuses are very helpful but you need to follow through with something you start skilling into I don't have isk problems, i gain isk every time i play, but i'm not the only one playing the game. I'm not a great shooter but i can do my own, some people shoot better, but maybe they don't have tactical awareness, some people are worse than me at shooters and they die more often, isk payouts are too low imo, all the players should have the possibilty to use their better equip, die with it, but still have some profit, not a lot, but a little profit, i don't want to 10X isk payouts, i want to boost them a little to give the possibility to everyone to use their proto fit 1 time every match and gain something. The unnamed new build it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes.. \o/ summon me
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 423	Posted - 2014.04.24 12:05:00 - [88] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I rather not make the proto stomp issue bigger than it really is by resorting to higher pay. What you should be demanding is cheaper fits on the lower end. most proto stomps are comeing from the farming of a broken PC gamemode. PVE should be in this game for a way for newer players to make isk like mineing in EVE. The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 214	Posted - 2014.04.24 12:14:00 - [89] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: In my view, prototype suits should be so expensive that almost no-one can afford to run them all the time. Militia & basic gear is for new starters, advanced is for established players. Proto is for going the extra mile every now and then, when winning is more important than making ISK. There are a few places this doesn't quite work though. One significant one for me, as a logi, is the fact that only proto suits have 4 equipment slots. Give the advanced logi suits a 4th equipment slot and I'd almost never run proto. I'm sure there are other situations where proto suits enable something that is just not possible with advanced; scan precision thresholds spring to mind as an example. You don't understand there is me, who saved up 36 million since I started the game 6 months ago and am now down to 26 million because I started using proto and advanced for the last month. Then there is ONE MEMBER from Dirt Nap Squad that makes 80 million IN A WEEK. Anything to make it harder/easier on us to make/lose money means NOTHING to a corp in control of a district.
Aszazel R 0 N 1 N 214	Posted - 2014.04.24 12:18:00 - [90] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: I'd pull out my proto to combat proto if I didnt die once and go negative Proto has a small increase if effectiveness for alot more price, not worth it And lol proto doesn't stomp, ive stomped in std gear with my squad. Thank you for defeating the OP's argument. Well I like to speed tank as a scout, Unfortunately you just don't have enough cpu/pg and slot layouts to do it at basic so I have been forced to run advanced, oh, yea, also, someone had my Gal Basic suit messed up for like 3 weeks.

Cenex Langly D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 723	Posted - 2014.04.24 12:18:00 - [91] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. There is hardly anything passive about defending territory 24/7 and making sure your team is the best one on the field. So if we're not gaining monetary rewards from holding districts, or something that can be exchanged for money, what the hell should we even bother for? E-honour? Not worth the trouble. No one will care. I do hope you weren't seriously suggesting that. Except you're not defending 24/7, you're defending for 1-2 hours a day... There is nothing 24/7 about that. Newb
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3626	Posted - 2014.04.24 14:03:00 - [92] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: Delanus Turgias wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. There is hardly anything passive about defending territory 24/7 and making sure your team is the best one on the field. So if we're not gaining monetary rewards from holding districts, or something that can be exchanged for money, what the hell should we even bother for? E-honour? Not worth the trouble. No one will care. I do hope you weren't seriously suggesting that. I believe he's referring more to the creation of industry and actually having to do work to get ISK from the resources you earn in PC, rather then removing ISK flow from PC altogether. Surely you aren't opposed to actually doing work? Of course DNS members are against work, if they wanted to have to work for their ISk they would be fighting each other instead of remaining in the blue donut and farming passive ISK. The last time I checked, the majority of the game's playerbase existed outside of the big blue donut you are talking about. The actual reality is that the big scary blue donut isn't actually that big at all. It just happens to be full of people that wanted to make domination happen, and the rest of the game is too busy being uncoordinated and terrible. WTF and OH are putting up really good fights. The rest of you not so much. It's not our obligation to fight each other just so you can get free land you don't deserve while we're too busy to smack you around. So don't talk to me about work. Folks like you who deserve nothing are the ultimate freeloaders.
boba's fetta Dead Man's Game 545	Posted - 2014.04.24 14:15:00 - [93] - Quote id like to see this all std fit that costs 20k... now thats fixed can i haz a trade window?
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1068	Posted - 2014.04.24 14:26:00 - [94] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Every FPS share the same basic concept, shoot to the enemy and kill him, so kills and deaths are occurring very often. Generally in every FPS kills and deaths count only towards to your stats and have no impact on the way you play the game, but DUST is different, you have to pay for your assets (and i like this concept), but ISK payouts are not balanced to your effort. Let me explain better with some examples: My STD fits cost average is: 20k isk My ADV fits cost average is: 60k isk My PRO fits cost average is: 190k isk My payout average is; 210k isk This mean that i can die: 10 times in STD or 3 times in ADV + 1 STD or 1 time in PRO + 1STD. In a game where deaths are frequent like a FPS you should be able to die with your best asset at least 2 times and still make profit. I have had only a biref experience with EVE online, but i don't think that death occurrs as much as in DUST. Let's assume a player with a 1.0 kd/r, he should be able to use 1 PRO, 3 ADV, 10 STD and gain some isk (not a lot but a decent amount), 16 kills and 16 deaths. How? I think there should be some kind of isk multipliers at the end of the match based on your WP score. Each multiplier should be at 500 WP Something like (random numbers): 500wp x 1.1 1000wp x 1.2 1500wp x 1.3 2000wp x 1.4 2500wp x 1.5 and so on till a cap of 2. WInning team gain a +0.1 on all multipliers, losing team -0.1 on all multipliers. In this way the game will pay your efforts and you will gain something more if you give something more. Uprising is the build with the cheapest fits... EVER. If you're seriously having problems with ISK you have to get better at Dust. Prices for items used to be 3 to 4 times higher than current ones and should've stayed that way so that PRO gear would usually be used when truly necessary. On Codex build or earlier, bringing in a PRO actually carried a big risk but now it's something that's affordable and can give you multiple kills, same goes for current tank fits (old price range: 1.5-2.5 million ISK) Uprising 1.8 - Invisible War
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1937	Posted - 2014.04.24 14:43:00 - [95] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: Uprising is the build with the cheapest fits... EVER. If you're seriously having problems with ISK you have to get better at Dust. Prices for items used to be 3 to 4 times higher than current ones and should've stayed that way so that PRO gear would usually be used when truly necessary. On Codex build or earlier, bringing in a PRO actually carried a big risk but now it's something that's affordable and can give you multiple kills, same goes for current tank fits (old price range: 1.5-2.5 million ISK) It's not my problem, i have enough isk to run proto if i want, it's a general problem, probably you don't care, but if you place 1st in match there are 15 other players under you that gain less isk than you and other 16 on the other column that gain less isk than you, try to open your eyes and look the other results and not only yours, it would be too easy to judge only with your point of view. The unnamed new build it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes.. \o/ summon me
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 528	Posted - 2014.04.24 14:49:00 - [96] - Quote Cenex Langly wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. There is hardly anything passive about defending territory 24/7 and making sure your team is the best one on the field. So if we're not gaining monetary rewards from holding districts, or something that can be exchanged for money, what the hell should we even bother for? E-honour? Not worth the trouble. No one will care. I do hope you weren't seriously suggesting that. Except you're not defending 24/7, you're defending for 1-2 hours a day... There is nothing 24/7 about that. Why do the rest of us play? You should get ISK for when you fight in PC , not when you don't. Because, that's why.
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1068	Posted - 2014.04.24 15:10:00 - [97] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Alldin Kan wrote: Uprising is the build with the cheapest fits... EVER. If you're seriously having problems with ISK you have to get better at Dust. Prices for items used to be 3 to 4 times higher than current ones and should've stayed that way so that PRO gear would usually be used when truly necessary. On Codex build or earlier, bringing in a PRO actually carried a big risk but now it's something that's affordable and can give you multiple kills, same goes for current tank fits (old price range: 1.5-2.5 million ISK) It's not my problem, i have enough isk to run proto if i want, it's a general problem, probably you don't care, but if you place 1st in match there are 15 other players under you that gain less isk than you and other 16 on the other column that gain less isk than you, try to open your eyes and look the other results and not only yours, it would be too easy to judge only with your point of view. Sorry but, even the average player can still earn ISK if they go with STD or ADV. Now on bad players, CCP simply needed to add a MLT/STD only mode so they can get better in Dust, no need for higher payouts. Uprising 1.8 - Invisible War
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 3630	Posted - 2014.04.24 18:57:00 - [98] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Cenex Langly wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: If you delete passive isk from PC and halve battle pay you're going to see a far more profound effect as opposed to doubling the payout. There is hardly anything passive about defending territory 24/7 and making sure your team is the best one on the field. So if we're not gaining monetary rewards from holding districts, or something that can be exchanged for money, what the hell should we even bother for? E-honour? Not worth the trouble. No one will care. I do hope you weren't seriously suggesting that. Except you're not defending 24/7, you're defending for 1-2 hours a day... There is nothing 24/7 about that. Why do the rest of us play? You should get ISK for when you fight in PC , not when you don't. There would be literally no reason to hold territory in a territory based game. How are there still people this ignorant in the community?
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7186	Posted - 2014.04.24 19:42:00 - [99] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: There would be literally no reason to hold territory in a territory based game. How are there still people this ignorant in the community? I'm all for reducing/removing the passive ISK if our districts actually yielded something such as the Production Facility producing Officer and/or Prototype items. Though that would require the Player Market. HAV > Infantry > AV < HAV [s]Text[/s] <------ That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 361	Posted - 2014.04.24 20:36:00 - [100] - Quote Atiim wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: There would be literally no reason to hold territory in a territory based game. How are there still people this ignorant in the community? I'm all for reducing/removing the passive ISK if our districts actually yielded something such as the Production Facility producing Officer and/or Prototype items. Though that would require the Player Market. That would just produce an unpredictable amount of passive ISK as well as then leaving the biggest corps (in land holding) to then also manipulate the player market for high grade equipment.



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