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howard sanchez
YELLOWCAB SERVICES
895
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Posted - 2014.04.23 12:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
We have been discussing what makes Dust such a compelling and addictive game despite its many and varied flaws.
I contend that it is the acute sense of loss. Loss of equipment that you purchased with isk that you earned.
That right there is the secret sauce. And anytime you can increase the spicy burn of that sauce you further increase the feeling that Dust is different.
Obviously it is a balancing act. Too much loss and difficulty in recovering make the spicy Dust sauce a bitter and painful sensation. But if you water it down and create a game where its too easy to replace everything and just keep killing, you will lose the magic.
The value of isk is tied to its scarcity. I speak with so many players who love to run proto gear and have KDr >3.0 ( this to indicate that they are frontline trigger pullers vice fps noobs like me). But most of them struggle with staying in the black. They chat a lot about waiting for an isk injection from thier corp or other groups they ring for.
While I persist at 0.5 KD and earn enough isk to grow multi millions in profit above and beyond all my costs.
My point is that these players have become tradable and valuable commodities in the game. If you make it easier for everyone to gain isk you will destroy the value that the skill gradient amongst players has created.
Keep the isk scarce. Real mercenaries have sprung up in dust. It's a beautiful thing. The economy is where it's at. |
howard sanchez
YELLOWCAB SERVICES
895
|
Posted - 2014.04.23 13:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Keeping isk valuable and scarce is the solution to protostomping.
It is happening slowly right now in the game. Maybe because of the huge isk faucet that is Planetary Conquest, maybe due to the small playerbase or other factors - but we are beginning to see the economic pressure that is applied to players who constantly run very expensive fits.
This is why, for the average player or noobs, the way to 'win' versus proto stompers is to run very inexpensive gear. It drives down the stompers' profitability while preserving the isk inflow of the noobs like me.
You can choose to be a straight up killer and gain a significant advantage from better gear or you can choose to be profitable in pub matches while not being as effective at cloning out the opponent.
But, in a game where isk has enough value and scarcity, it is difficult to choose both.
Whether you are willing to admit it or not - that choice is what adds a great deal of compelling motive to Dust |
howard sanchez
YELLOWCAB SERVICES
895
|
Posted - 2014.04.23 13:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:No thanks.
When I run a proto suit I know I can only die once or risk losing more than I gain But this also makes the game boring! Everyone fears to lose too many isk and the entire game solves into a giant camp fest. Or The few proto users will easily outmatch the others "poors" Or Sniping the entire match
Wrong answer. Boring is what you get when everyone can run anything they want with little to no risk of loss ( which is the same as easily replaced because you have so much isk).
The proto stomp crowd will only make things worse for Dust if the value and scarcity of isk is reduced.
The choice players must face when deciding to bring better gear to a fight should matter. That choice only matters when the gear has value and the potential loss of that gear could impact the player financially. CCP, I pray, understand this.
If CCP present some kind of economic discussion of New Eden at fan fest, like they often do, I really hope DUST's place in that equation will be revealed.
By the way CCP, when are you planning to tell us anything about fan fest and what we can expect?? |
howard sanchez
YELLOWCAB SERVICES
895
|
Posted - 2014.04.23 14:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aszazel wrote:I made 369K in one match last night, and the one guy I was running with made 420K. We wondered why our team was doing so badly then we realized that it was 5 vs 16. The rest had quit or gone afk. But him and I stayed, I started using my advanced suit after I lost my first proto and he only died once cause he is better at retreating then me.
Anyways for those that don't know, isk payout is based on the gear you're wearing vs the gear the enemy is, how many warpoints you get and where you place in the rankings. The cost of all the equipment and gear that the enemy team brings in is put against your and how well you do determines how much you get, that is why it's worth losing a couple of suicide militia fits with remote explosives to take out 2 or 3 protos.
The entire game is stacked against newbs but even when I had under 2 mil SP I still topped the leaderboard, it wasn't in kills like it is now (I usually did 0.86) it was smart placement of drop uplinks, staying to the outside and hacking objectives, picking off the lone guy here and there, sometimes I would rep and stay in the middle of a group but I could usually pull over 1000 warpoints a game. Use equalizers like remotes, it doesn't matter what suit they have if they walk into a bomb.
Good example Aszazel.
It points out clearly that there are many ways to excel in this game. It's not all about KDr, topping charts and stomping noobs.
I often run in a squad with several Teamplayers who love thier proto gear. One fine gentleman, Ruthra, went 54:8 last nite in a pub match vs Subreddit. I went 2:4 in that match and I lost 2 dropships.
I earned 111k isk which is slightly below my avg for a pub skirmish. Ruthra earned over 400k.
His outfit runs close to 160k each. Mine costs less than 15k and the dropships cost 57k
So, we both lost isk and failed to profit. But the proto gear runner lost a ton more isk. After the match we discussed the pros and cons and while he could clearly see the economic logic in running cheaper gear there was no way he would do it. Dust for him is about the thrill of going 54:8 and razing that other team.
And if his corp pays him for PC matches or he rings for another group he can stay in proto. But not if he just goes it alone.
This is what I am talking about. The lack of profitability when running great gear is what makes Ruthra, Forsaken, Vonspliff and others into true mercs. Guys like me will pay them for what they can bring but they need guys with isk in order to bring it consistently.
This is a good thing! Balance is NOT giving everything to everyone. It's that precarious point between competing interests ( gain vs loss). That's what keeps the engines turning. |
howard sanchez
YELLOWCAB SERVICES
895
|
Posted - 2014.04.23 14:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:And people wonder why I support teiricide.
Why?
Artificial segregation of players and gear might help level the playing field in each little pond you split the game into. But if you want a dynamic, organic system of warfare wherein choices about what to bring to the fight are seriously made based on loss and gain potential then tiericide, gear restrictions and other mechanisms won't help
These approaches could make each game mode you apply them to more 'balanced' within that smaller segregated portion of Dust. But you give up that open sandbox nature that CCP has promoted.
IWS, I will admit that I my opinion of how to balance the sandbox has evolved over the years but recently I see potential for an open sandbox with the primary restriction being Isk scarcity.
If CCP wants to keep player options unrestricted then they must keep isk scarce and valuable.
Alternatively they can create little walls throughout our playpen and tell us where and with what toys we can play. |
howard sanchez
YELLOWCAB SERVICES
898
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Posted - 2014.04.23 19:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
+10 likes for Ander's post above.
It is encouraging to hear your own play style and outcomes reiterated by other successful mercs. I cannot agree more that the truest way to Dust-fu is to do more with less.
Proto gear is out there...we know. Yes you have all the level Vs you could want, you earned it...we get it. Want to run proto non-stop? Go ahead. It should cost you. What's next? Feel entitled enough to demand full officer gear at militia prices?
Tighten the faucets and open the sinks! Don't fix issues by throwing bigger payouts at them.
Want more isk? Give us player trading! Prices can only realistically be lower than what the NPC market offers at first. Then we can make the market economy real by allowing Dust mercs to move, trade and fight thier way throughout the systems of New Eden.
Bigger payouts are the selfish and shortsighted fix that will only support the protostomping culture. |
howard sanchez
YELLOWCAB SERVICES
899
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Posted - 2014.04.23 20:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Reading is fundamental |
howard sanchez
YELLOWCAB SERVICES
902
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Posted - 2014.04.23 20:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Delanus Turgias wrote:howard sanchez wrote:+10 likes for Ander's post above.
It is encouraging to hear your own play style and outcomes reiterated by other successful mercs. I cannot agree more that the truest way to Dust-fu is to do more with less.
Proto gear is out there...we know. Yes you have all the level Vs you could want, you earned it...we get it. Want to run proto non-stop? Go ahead. It should cost you. What's next? Feel entitled enough to demand full officer gear at militia prices?
Tighten the faucets and open the sinks! Don't fix issues by throwing bigger payouts at them.
Want more isk? Give us player trading! Prices can only realistically be lower than what the NPC market offers at first. Then we can make the market economy real by allowing Dust mercs to move, trade and fight thier way throughout the systems of New Eden.
Bigger payouts are the selfish and shortsighted fix that will only support the protostomping culture. Again, you're missing the point. Economy would be great, everyone agrees with that. But industry is years away and player trading isn't much closer. For those with functionally limitless ISK reserves (Read: DNS and the better PC Ringers), price is nothing. It only limits those who have high SP but not high payroll. So increasing payout in regular matches would allow a merc with 10mil SP to compete toe-to-toe with a merc that has 50mil SP and 10mil ISK/day income, at least in terms of gear. You can't buy skill. But closing the ISK gap will mean that everyone can use proto, which, when everyone is doing so, isn't actually a problem. You call it shortsighted, but it's also short-term. When contracts are actually paid by EvE Players or Dust Mercs and gear is produced by the same, you can bet that none of this will matter.
I would argue that player trading and a player market is definitely not years off. In fact, if those things are more than 6 months off then there will be many bad time ahead for Dust. I agree with you that the current broken system that is PC along with CCPs terrible handling of that uncontrolled isk faucet is game breaking.
CCP must fix the uneven and exploitable isk faucets including the alt-clone farming. These things have to happen very soon. But once they fix the faucets and release additional isk earning/isk saving mechanisms (trading/market) then economic factors will begin further balancing the gear diversity in pub matches.
Let's not balance the game we have today- too many broken features. Fix the foundation and build on that
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