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Well, this is disturbing to say the least

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Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6648	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:15:00 - [1] - Quote The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Plantary Conquest. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 1719	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:16:00 - [2] - Quote I can see why that would be disturbing. Maybe CCP has a point. Also. Maths? Forge on for great justice! Defend the meek! Destroy the weak! Q-sync breaches into the rectum of everyone else!
Virtual Riot The Vanguardians INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 201	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:16:00 - [3] - Quote pics or it didn't happen
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3462	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:17:00 - [4] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Plantary Conquest. One of them "might" impact AUR sales. I'll give you guess as to which. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6648	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:20:00 - [5] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I can see why that would be disturbing. Maybe CCP has a point. Also. Maths? Data from CCP, got it through the CPM. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1079	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:21:00 - [6] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Plantary Conquest. True Story
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2635	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:23:00 - [7] - Quote Source? Intelligence is OP
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 2647	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:23:00 - [8] - Quote Is that due to BPO use during PC battles - that never happen? I GÖú Kittens.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4516	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:31:00 - [9] - Quote Actually posting the evidence rather than just stating something like this without showing your working would be nice. Also, consider the number of active PC corps vs. the number of players using BPOs who WOULDN'T be using Starter Fits if they didn't have the BPOs to run.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 306	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:34:00 - [10] - Quote Apparently the promise of real monetary exchange for unlimited copies of otherwise exhaustable inventories has consequences. It's a blemish on CCP, and now they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They have already started backpedaling, and the only way out is more backpedaling. I think they should go one way or another, and then promise not to break any future promises. It might work either way. I offer this warning though, like the music industry, you can't just add up all the free copies used and convert them to new AUR profits. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG

Anarchide Greedy Bastards 1866	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:36:00 - [11] - Quote Cat Merc has once again abused catnip. My alts: General John Ripper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Cat Merc, Long Evity And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 875	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:39:00 - [12] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Plantary Conquest. I call bullshit Who wants some?
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6649	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:45:00 - [13] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Plantary Conquest. I call bullshit CCP data. It ain't bullshit. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1248	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:47:00 - [14] - Quote Rynoceros wrote: Is that due to BPO use during PC battles - that never happen? I would assume that most PC players have BPOs. If they use those BPOs in a few self-attack situations, how greatly does that skew the data? For what ISK is generated in PC there is a significant amount lossed defending or attacking districts.. No one runs joke fits unless your Kalante in a 6us/vs/14them and still gets 25 kills in a militia suit... I Personally own almost all the BPO's that have been offered for sale... probably 4-5 dragonfly's? But I never use BPO's... Seems to be the case for most of the competitive corporations and BPO use, with a few exceptions... Blueprints in EVE are merely that... A set of Instructions for crafting the said item. I Would LOVE to see a crafting system in EVE similar involving the BPO's and salvage system. So Say i kill a Guy with an assault rifle and a Minmatar Suit, I get a piece of the Assault Rifle and Minmatar suit to then combine with other salvage to Craft an Assault Rifle at 0 cost. Blueprints even in lore where it just spawns another suit with no materials or ISK cost will never make sense no matter how convenient the operation is to my personal ISK making aspirations.
Aeon Amadi Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 4986	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:49:00 - [15] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Plantary Conquest. I call bullshit CCP data. It ain't bullshit. Unfortunately, it's speculation for the moment and we'll likely not see any graphs/charts/data until CCP is comfortable with the inevitable backlash of either. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Syeven Reed RETR0 PR0 GAMERS INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 403	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:50:00 - [16] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Planetary Conquest. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Yeah but its concentrated to a few corps, its an even playing field with BPO's. Gÿé Syeven 514
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 333	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:51:00 - [17] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of SOURCE cited by Cat Merc is less than what is cited by a blind monkey. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Source or it didn't happen. I heard some data from CCP, through CPM, that Cat Merc is full of it. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 666	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:55:00 - [18] - Quote So BPO users made more ISK than PC abusers.... Yeah, this needs proof before i'll believe that Plasma Cannon will have its chance if AR/HAV 514 is ever fixed
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1250	Posted - 2014.02.19 14:59:00 - [19] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: So BPO users made more ISK than PC abusers.... Yeah, this needs proof before i'll believe that It makes sense when you think of how big the player pool is in PC... its tiny... I've been fighting with or against the same names for nearly a year... Nearly anyone that has played this game for a couple month period and had the option to buy a blueprint that fits their gameplay... Bought one and usually uses it in Pubs' to grind ISK. And this player pool is a majority of DUST. If you merely look at the max potential of ISK generated per day in PC.... And then think about the potential ISK income from Pub payouts running all day with 100% profit from BPO use. The amount of ISK generated from those BPO with absolutely no loss or cost.. is economy breaking.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1676	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:03:00 - [20] - Quote Bethhy wrote: TheD1CK wrote: So BPO users made more ISK than PC abusers.... Yeah, this needs proof before i'll believe that It makes sense when you think of how big the player pool is in PC... its tiny... I've been fighting with or against the same names for nearly a year... Nearly anyone that has played this game for a couple month period and had the option to buy a blueprint that fits their gameplay... Bought one and usually uses it in Pubs' to grind ISK. And this player pool is a majority of DUST. If you merely look at the max potential of ISK generated per day in PC.... And then think about the potential ISK income from Pub's payouts running all day with 100% profit from BPO use. 5k deaths * Militia Assault Rifle @ 600 ISK = 3M just for the militia rifle. "You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." Raoul Duke

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6649	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:04:00 - [21] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The amount of SOURCE cited by Cat Merc is less than what is cited by a blind monkey. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Source or it didn't happen. I heard some data from CCP, through CPM, that Cat Merc is full of it. Visit IRC or talk with them on skype from once in a while. Because I do. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1676	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:06:00 - [22] - Quote Bethhy wrote: TheD1CK wrote: So BPO users made more ISK than PC abusers.... Yeah, this needs proof before i'll believe that It makes sense when you think of how big the player pool is in PC... its tiny... I've been fighting with or against the same names for nearly a year... Nearly anyone that has played this game for a couple month period and had the option to buy a blueprint that fits their gameplay... Bought one and usually uses it in Pubs' to grind ISK. And this player pool is a majority of DUST. If you merely look at the max potential of ISK generated per day in PC.... And then think about the potential ISK income from Pub payouts running all day with 100% profit from BPO use. The amount of ISK generated from those BPO with absolutely no loss or cost.. is economy breaking. With no material supply needed to build the item it is just magically produced and is totally free. That is the problem, it is just wished into reality. "You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." Raoul Duke
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2635	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:07:00 - [23] - Quote Still no source Its BS Intelligence is OP
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1250	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:10:00 - [24] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: With no material supply needed to build the item it is just magically produced and is totally free. That is the problem, it is just wished into reality. Bethhy wrote: Blueprints in EVE are merely that... A set of Instructions for crafting the said item. I Would LOVE to see a crafting system in DUST that is similar, involving the BPO's and salvage system. So Say I kill a Guy with an Assault Rifle and a Minmatar Suit, I get a piece of the Assault Rifle and Minmatar suit to then combine with other salvage to Craft an Assault Rifle at 0 cost. Blueprints even in lore where it just spawns another suit with no materials or ISK cost will never make sense no matter how convenient the operation is to my personal ISK making aspirations.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4516	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:12:00 - [25] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The amount of SOURCE cited by Cat Merc is less than what is cited by a blind monkey. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Source or it didn't happen. I heard some data from CCP, through CPM, that Cat Merc is full of it. Visit IRC or talk with them on skype from once in a while. Because I do. Post the IRC log, then.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6649	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:12:00 - [26] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Still no source Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
ReGnYuM Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2202	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:13:00 - [27] - Quote So who is the farmer again? Official Imperfect Title: Supreme Leader of the Endless Sunset I Slay, for thy Empress Do you even PC... Brah
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 586	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:13:00 - [28] - Quote I am curious how they could figure out how much ISK has been saved because of BPO's. Would be interesting to see their numbers and conclusions.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6649	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:16:00 - [29] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: So who is the farmer again? Still you. The money generated in PC is still much more concentrated. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6649	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:17:00 - [30] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The amount of SOURCE cited by Cat Merc is less than what is cited by a blind monkey. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Source or it didn't happen. I heard some data from CCP, through CPM, that Cat Merc is full of it. Visit IRC or talk with them on skype from once in a while. Because I do. Post the IRC log, then. It's somewhere in the Skype chat history. I didn't make a thread about it as soon as it was told since I needed time to figure out what it means exactly. (Implications, etc') I will try to find the logs, but here is the chat: http://i.imgur.com/ZOPowbg.png Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos

Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1702	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:21:00 - [31] - Quote It makes sense to me, most of the time in pubs I'm running fits that use a lot of BPOs and cost 11,000 isk or less. I make around the same amount of isk from those matches as ones where I spend 50k per suit, which means I'm making around 150k more per pub match than if I didn't use BPOs. Say I run 10 matches in a night this way, and only play 25 days out of the month. That's an extra 37.5 million isk coming into the economy, from one person. If just 1500 people are doing what I'm doing, that's over 56 billion isk every month being injected into the economy. A lot of people play longer sessions than I do, so this is a conservative number. There are 245 districts in Molden Heath. Assuming each one is generating 7 million isk per day (after expenses, differing structures etc) that would be 51.5 billion isk per month. 56 > 52
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1702	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:23:00 - [32] - Quote They could figure out how much was saved because they have a log of every death and what items were on the suit. Blueprint items are marked as such, so they just need to tally up the number of items lost and use the isk value of the equivalent item from the market.
Sgt Buttscratch Edimmu Warfighters 1709	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:25:00 - [33] - Quote They would say that...... reality is with people owning BPO's thewerent feeling the need to buy these 'neo' suits and whatever other AUR gears that BPO's covered... I stick my weiner in two buns and and then give it the gas Sour cream from my spleen into Levi jeans
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1625	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:27:00 - [34] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Planetary Conquest. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Edit 2: It makes sense people. PC affects a small portion of the players, while BPO's are very very widely used. From my perspective, it's the price CCP has to pay for tank spam & RR heavies. I'm now running SVER logi and Exile AR almost exclusively in all matches. Previously i was running all-ISK minny ADV assault with mostly proto mods. I'll bet i'm not alone. I support SP rollover.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6649	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:28:00 - [35] - Quote Sgt Buttscratch wrote: They would say that...... reality is with people owning BPO's thewerent feeling the need to buy these 'neo' suits and whatever other AUR gears that BPO's covered... Too bad there is no militia AUR gear huh Now, as far as the STD gear goes... Look at the Aurum prices for STD gear. Now look at the AUR prices for STD BPO's. (Used to be around 28k AUR IIRC) Do you feel your conspiracy crumbling yet? Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1625	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:35:00 - [36] - Quote Bethhy wrote: TheD1CK wrote: So BPO users made more ISK than PC abusers.... Yeah, this needs proof before i'll believe that It makes sense when you think of how big the player pool is in PC... its tiny... I've been fighting with or against the same names for nearly a year... Nearly anyone that has played this game for a couple month period and had the option to buy a blueprint that fits their gameplay... Bought one and usually uses it in Pubs' to grind ISK. And this player pool is a majority of DUST. If you merely look at the max potential of ISK generated per day in PC.... And then think about the potential ISK income from Pub payouts running all day with 100% profit from BPO use. The amount of ISK generated from those BPO with absolutely no loss or cost.. is economy breaking. ^ This. When we look at the ~2500 to 4500 logged in users, most running pubs, how many are using one or two BPOs in their loadouts? ISK saved would add up fast. I support SP rollover.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2636	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:46:00 - [37] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Still no source Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Big whoop no source Anyways BPO dont ruin any economy since we dont have one and all BPOs are basic anyways Intelligence is OP
xSivartx D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 19	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:46:00 - [38] - Quote Add the spike in starter suits I see in pubs being used. Are these counted as BPOs? There are those newer players that have not purchased the BPOs and now run slightly altered starter fits. What impact have these on the stats?
SteelDark Knight Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 250	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:48:00 - [39] - Quote Just some simple math to see if this statement is feasible: 1 Player running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings: = 2,000,000 Profit. 100 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings: = 200,000,000 Profit 1,000 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings = 2,000,000,000 Profit 5,000 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings = 10,000,000,000 Profit Seems legit.
The Attorney General 2112	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:50:00 - [40] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: 5k deaths * Militia Assault Rifle @ 600 ISK = 3M just for the militia rifle. Exile says hello, as does the Toxin. More savings! Mr. Hybrid Vayu.

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6649	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:53:00 - [41] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Still no source Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Big whoop no source Anyways BPO dont ruin any economy since we dont have one and all BPOs are basic anyways Question. What reason would I have to lie? I want BPO's to stay, I have pretty much every single one DIUST ever had, and trying to get the templar gear. So what incentive would I have to do this? Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 877	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:55:00 - [42] - Quote Its all fake. The only real money is applied to your PSN account. Pub matches pay out miracle money. Its created at the end of every match. Why doesn't this hurt the economy? Because there is no economy. Who wants some?
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1703	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:00:00 - [43] - Quote Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation.
Haerr Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 271	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:01:00 - [44] - Quote lol, how large part of the ISK savings comes from the free LAVs? Apparently "Haerr" means "Hare"... Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm a hunted wabbit!
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 877	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:05:00 - [45] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation. Explain this a bit more. Who wants some?
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation ACME Holding Conglomerate 683	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:07:00 - [46] - Quote i remember making on average per pubmatch around 300k isk a game. now its around 100k or less... made the same 300k on average in fw before it turned to useless loyalty points. what is happening here?...losing money more than making money. not a good sign.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6649	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:24:00 - [47] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation. Explain this a bit more. As soon as the open player market opens, **** is getting real. There is a reason why CCP have two economists watching the games. (One for each) Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1704	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:27:00 - [48] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation. Explain this a bit more. The economy is the creation and destruction of isk. Isk is clearly being created and destroyed, and CCP studies this stuff. Their economist had a presentation at last year's fanfest about the Dust economy. Getting the creation and destruction of isk into balance is the biggest stumbling block to get over before the Dust economy can begin to merge with Eve. If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2883	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:31:00 - [49] - Quote I don't think it's that disturbing at all. Most of the BPO users that piling up ISK are not players that will affect the battlefield one way or the other whether they are in BPOs or in Proto. The problem with PC is that you are talking about a handful of players, the best players, that are pulling in ISK that they couldn't spend if they tried. A guy that runs a 10.0 KDR isn't going to spend a billion ISK on suits. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 2517	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:34:00 - [50] - Quote People who do PC can afford to run Proto suits all the time. Everyone else loses money running advanced suits. So if they have BPOGÇÖs they run BPOGÇÖs to save ISK so they can occasionally run Advanced or Proto gear. (If they were good enough to go ISK positive in Advanced or Proto suits they would be in a PC Corp.) The discrepancy in ISK made from PC versus ISK saved through BPOGÇÖs is a matter of there being vastly more players who are forced to grind ISK in public matches using BPOGÇÖs than there are who get their ISK through PC. Essentially it all comes down to this: - Good players play PC, can afford to run Proto suits, and donGÇÖt die a lot because they are good. - Not so good players canGÇÖt get into PC, ware BPOGÇÖs to save ISK, and die constantly (thus saving a lot of ISK through the use of a BPO.) Or put another way, the more you die in a BPO the more ISK you save through the use of the BPO. If you put a Proto weapon on a BPO suit and die a lot in a match you can loose hundreds of thousands in ISK, while technically saving ISK through the use of a BPO suit. Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014

CYRAX SERVIUS Death Firm. Canis Eliminatus Operatives 945	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:43:00 - [51] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Still no source Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Big whoop no source Anyways BPO dont ruin any economy since we dont have one and all BPOs are basic anyways Exactly! CEO Whiskey squad leader Invictus Maneo~"I Remain Unvanquished"~
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 2049	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:52:00 - [52] - Quote 1) The point about people using starter fits instead of BPO's is a good one. With the low TTK and all the damn tanks it's inevitable this would happen. 2) The low payouts aren't some kind of conspiracy, get the tinfoil hats off. It's directly related to the lower cost of vehicles and people running cheaper gear (i.e., the BPOs or starter fits). ISK destroyed = ISK payout. 3) While it may be economy-breaking, I still have a hard time concluding it's AS economy-breaking as all the PC money, because of the existance of starter fits and the massive wealth disparity PC creates. The cost of officer weapons, for example, will be primarily driven by those PC funds, not the pittance 90% of the people running BPO's make. 4) Easy solution, as has been mentioned innumerable times, is manufacturing. You either pay some ISK (a small fraction of the true cost of the item) or use resources collected in salvage to create the items the BPO's are of. No need to take them away and enrage the torch-and-pitchfork-wielding masses, gives a little extra metagame, less economy-breaking, etc. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Forum Warrior lv.2 Amarr victor!
RailTank QQ SAM-MIK 1	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:53:00 - [53] - Quote CYRAX SERVIUS wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Still no source Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Big whoop no source Anyways BPO dont ruin any economy since we dont have one and all BPOs are basic anyways Exactly! The people who believe that DUST doesn't have a tangible economy must also believe that sub-prime lending doesn't lead to world-wide economic recessions/depressions. If anyone has been paying attention to what has been said in this thread, not only is Catmerc most likely speaking the truth, but we could be in more trouble than we thought because of the magical BPO problem. There's not really a quick and easy solution...well, there is but there would be a riot and many persons would actually leave the game. Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1252	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:02:00 - [54] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation. Explain this a bit more. The economy is the creation and destruction of isk. Isk is clearly being created and destroyed, and CCP studies this stuff. Their economist had a presentation at last year's fanfest about the Dust economy. Getting the creation and destruction of isk into balance is the biggest stumbling block to get over before the Dust economy can begin to merge with Eve. If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany. They will never merge the two economies... The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some. The best they EVER talked about with EVE and DUST economies is the EVE side being able to build Warbarges and buy tanks and LAV's to drop in for DUST Mercenaries on campaigns.... And for DUST the best they ever talked about was the players controlling the planetary resources and selling it to the EVE player base... and I believe this was more players talking and Dev's musing it.
RailTank QQ SAM-MIK 2	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:07:00 - [55] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation. Explain this a bit more. The economy is the creation and destruction of isk. Isk is clearly being created and destroyed, and CCP studies this stuff. Their economist had a presentation at last year's fanfest about the Dust economy. Getting the creation and destruction of isk into balance is the biggest stumbling block to get over before the Dust economy can begin to merge with Eve. If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany. They will never merge the two economies... The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some. The best they EVER talked about with EVE and DUST economies is the EVE side being able to build Warbarges and buy tanks and LAV's to drop in for DUST Mercenaries on campaigns.... And for DUST the best they ever talked about was the players controlling the planetary resources and selling it to the EVE player base... and I believe this was more players talking and Dev's musing it. Musing at EVE Vegas and EVE Down Under if i remember right. Most likely will get some bastardized from by the end of (next) year but im hoping fanfest gives us something (mainly to complain about) Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
Lv2spd2 Slow And Old 204	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:09:00 - [56] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Everyone else loses money running advanced suits. Why do you say this? I am not particularly skilled. I do not PC. I do not possess any BPs. I am never paid to ring or merc for anyone. I do not run endless games in free militia suits. I am not a beta vet. I am not supported financially by my corp or any other corp. I do not run isk scams or beg for isk. I run advanced or proto in pubs pretty much every game, and pretty much all my adv suits have at least 1 piece of proto gear on them. I am not broke (not super wealthy either) and I possess over 1000 full fits of my favorite proto logi build. So I could spend a good long time running pure proto is pubs if I wished. If I can do it, why can't others? And in answer to why I have so many of the proto fit. It's mostly because I can, and partially a hedge aagainst a possible price explosion whenever the player market finally does arrive.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1704	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:18:00 - [57] - Quote "The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some" I've heard before that there's actually more isk in the Dust economy than in Eve, which isn't entirely implausible. The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast. At fanfest people were pretty shocked to see the amount of isk we had created here. There's really no reason why they couldn't merge the economies. They've said they'd start out with a large tax for transferring isk from Eve to Dust, which would prevent the ability to flood the Dust economy and ruin it. Over time they would slowly lower this tax. What that means is that prices in Dust will go up across the board as will our income. That means that we may be paying as much for a dropsuit as a frigate, which while it seems silly will work.
Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 171	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:22:00 - [58] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Planetary Conquest. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Edit 2: It makes sense people. PC affects a small portion of the players, while BPO's are very very widely used. TTK is what now on a proto suit ? SO how much is it for a militia equivalent ? CCP did what with the USD they made off of BPO's? DUMB thread is dumb thread Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6653	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:22:00 - [59] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: "The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some" I've heard before that there's actually more isk in the Dust economy than in Eve, which isn't entirely implausible. The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast. At fanfest people were pretty shocked to see the amount of isk we had created here. There's really no reason why they couldn't merge the economies. They've said they'd start out with a large tax for transferring isk from Eve to Dust, which would prevent the ability to flood the Dust economy and ruin it. Over time they would slowly lower this tax. What that means is that prices in Dust will go up across the board as will our income. That means that we may be paying as much for a dropsuit as a frigate, which while it seems silly will work. There's no way in hell that DUST has more ISK than in EVE. Trillionaires are a common sight. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
RailTank QQ SAM-MIK 2	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:36:00 - [60] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: "The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some" I've heard before that there's actually more isk in the Dust economy than in Eve, which isn't entirely implausible. The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast. At fanfest people were pretty shocked to see the amount of isk we had created here. There's really no reason why they couldn't merge the economies. They've said they'd start out with a large tax for transferring isk from Eve to Dust, which would prevent the ability to flood the Dust economy and ruin it. Over time they would slowly lower this tax. What that means is that prices in Dust will go up across the board as will our income. That means that we may be paying as much for a dropsuit as a frigate, which while it seems silly will work. There's no way in hell that DUST has more ISK than in EVE. Trillionaires are a common sight. Individual wealth =\= economic motility. We create and destroy incredible amounts of Idk. Over a trillion in a few months was generated and subsequently destroyed. The DUST market turns itself over in a few days. Eve trades a trillion isk in a year, because battles are sparse, and true destruction events like BR-5 are anomalies. It's easier to generate and hold isk in EVE because of the calmer volatility. Now granted raw isk values for sure still favor EVE, But there's huge potential for DUST to catch it Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2638	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:51:00 - [61] - Quote RailTank QQ wrote: CYRAX SERVIUS wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Still no source Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Big whoop no source Anyways BPO dont ruin any economy since we dont have one and all BPOs are basic anyways Exactly! The people who believe that DUST doesn't have a tangible economy must also believe that sub-prime lending doesn't lead to world-wide economic recessions/depressions. If anyone has been paying attention to what has been said in this thread, not only is Catmerc most likely speaking the truth, but we could be in more trouble than we thought because of the magical BPO problem. There's not really a quick and easy solution...well, there is but there would be a riot and many persons would actually leave the game. Get real BPO do no harm Whats gonna happen if PVE comes along and it can be farmed with a 6man group all in tanks? and they dont lose anything? Frankly this wouldnt have been a problem if they didnt drop all the prices Back in the day proto suit cost you 300k now its 57k or 8k plus 200LP Its a vanity item at best which saves a few isk while you get proto stomped which is also a basic weapon/suit/equipment BPO add something to the game, just look at the Templar set they are wanted by players because they are different If CCP did a set for each race plenty would by them and be use them But also its the lack of decent modes in which to use better gear, FW is iffy at best with terrible payouts of LP and PC is PC and very dodgy atm Intelligence is OP
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1627	Posted - 2014.02.19 18:00:00 - [62] - Quote RailTank QQ wrote: CYRAX SERVIUS wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Still no source Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Big whoop no source Anyways BPO dont ruin any economy since we dont have one and all BPOs are basic anyways Exactly! The people who believe that DUST doesn't have a tangible economy must also believe that sub-prime lending doesn't lead to world-wide economic recessions/depressions. If anyone has been paying attention to what has been said in this thread, not only is Catmerc most likely speaking the truth, but we could be in more trouble than we thought because of the magical BPO problem. There's not really a quick and easy solution...well, there is but there would be a riot and many persons would actually leave the game. It's not that much of a problem. John Demonsbane proposed the most likely solution above: BPO manufacturing will still have a mineral input cost. Imo the PC income is pretty obviously the biggest driver of ISK inflation in DUST. Wrt the size of the DUST EVE economies, it's already been shown that DUST's economy is already giving EVE a run for it's money, and that's with our pathetically low player numbers. Wrt to balancing the economies it will be possible. Prolly the most stable solution would be to balance around extraction of strategic resources common to both economies. There could still be clones, but clone manufacture would go from being magic to being a manufacturuing process that had material inputs. For this we want clones to become a commodity in EVE first, and in DUST as well - right now we're not paying for our clones in DUST pubs or FW - we prolly should be. We'll have an integrated economy, and for my money before this time next year. But it'll be kind of crippled in terms of gameplay-generation for us in DUST if we don't have a robust contract system. I support SP rollover.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1253	Posted - 2014.02.19 18:13:00 - [63] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: It's not that much of a problem. John Demonsbane proposed the most likely solution above: BPO manufacturing will still have a mineral input cost. Imo the PC income is pretty obviously the biggest driver of ISK inflation in DUST. Wrt the size of the DUST EVE economies, it's already been shown that DUST's economy is already giving EVE a run for it's money, and that's with our pathetically low player numbers. Wrt to balancing the economies it will be possible. Prolly the most stable solution would be to balance around extraction of strategic resources common to both economies. There could still be clones, but clone manufacture would go from being magic to being a manufacturuing process that had material inputs. For this we want clones to become a commodity in EVE first, and in DUST as well - right now we're not paying for our clones in DUST pubs or FW - we prolly should be. We'll have an integrated economy, and for my money before this time next year. But it'll be kind of crippled in terms of gameplay-generation for us in DUST if we don't have a robust contract system. What do you mine in high sec in EVE? because the ISk generation in incursions in high security space alone dwarfs DUST by ridiculous amounts... We aren't even getting into WH's, DED's, 0.0 as a whole... Even high security missions.. Then we can get to the whole economy being a decade old... DUST gives EVE a run for their money?
RailTank QQ SAM-MIK 3	Posted - 2014.02.19 18:22:00 - [64] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: It's not that much of a problem. John Demonsbane proposed the most likely solution above: BPO manufacturing will still have a mineral input cost. Imo the PC income is pretty obviously the biggest driver of ISK inflation in DUST. Wrt the size of the DUST EVE economies, it's already been shown that DUST's economy is already giving EVE a run for it's money, and that's with our pathetically low player numbers. Wrt to balancing the economies it will be possible. Prolly the most stable solution would be to balance around extraction of strategic resources common to both economies. There could still be clones, but clone manufacture would go from being magic to being a manufacturuing process that had material inputs. For this we want clones to become a commodity in EVE first, and in DUST as well - right now we're not paying for our clones in DUST pubs or FW - we prolly should be. We'll have an integrated economy, and for my money before this time next year. But it'll be kind of crippled in terms of gameplay-generation for us in DUST if we don't have a robust contract system. What do you mine in high sec in EVE? because the ISk generation in incursions in high security space alone dwarfs DUST by ridiculous amounts... We aren't even getting into WH's, DED's, 0.0 as a whole... Even high security missions.. Then we can get to the whole economy being a decade old... DUST gives EVE a run for their money? In terms of market turn over and **** destroyed they are very similar. Raw Isk generation EVE still wins, but the more killing blah blah DUST does, the greater potential it has to catch it. Will it? Someday. Near future? Probably not. In relation to an easy fix. Manufacturing is the best fix, But it is by no means quick ot easy. New PVE stuff, game modes, suits, mods, equipment, veHicles, game infrastructure. Whole bunch of crap is needed to make it work. The easy solution is pulling BPOs. Womp womp. I fully want and support industry, But who the hell knows what hilmar wants. Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1296	Posted - 2014.02.19 18:24:00 - [65] - Quote These statistics have to be skewed. There must be a correlation to the hit detection fix in 1.4 (?). When that patch got deployed, I would not be surprised to see a spike in BPO useage at all. Please give us graphs. Drop it like its hat.
Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 171	Posted - 2014.02.19 18:28:00 - [66] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Planetary Conquest. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Edit 2: It makes sense people. PC affects a small portion of the players, while BPO's are very very widely used. Look at how glitchy the movement is all arrow key ish .Look at how slow his turn speed is. Do they show a part where the guy gets stuck in a map glitch while trying to cross terrain? Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 587	Posted - 2014.02.19 18:34:00 - [67] - Quote SteelDark Knight wrote: Just some simple math to see if this statement is feasible: 1 Player running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings: = 2,000,000 Profit. 100 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings: = 200,000,000 Profit 1,000 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings = 2,000,000,000 Profit 5,000 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings = 10,000,000,000 Profit Seems legit. That has nothing to do with BPO's though. That is just how much money can be made period. The real difference comes with the Operational Cost (IE, how much each suit costs when they die). Reduce the Total Sum by the Operational Cost and you get Profit. I will keep your numbers. I will add that each player dies an average of 3.5 times per match, meaning 35 deaths per day. Again, these numbers are just to show a point. The ISK might be low/high, the matches might be low/high, and the deaths might be low/high but if we can't make assumptions we can't work it out. Frontline: Operational Cost = Zero, 2 million profit. Militia Medium Frame, 2 Damage mods, AR, Scrambler Pistol, Shield Regulator, Locus Grenades: Operational Cost = 2,955, 1,896,575 profit Raven, Dren AR, Dren Scrambler Pistol, Damage mods, Plates, Grenade, Nanohive: Operational Cost = zero, 2 million profit. C-1 Assault, Regular AR/Scrambler Pistol, (Damage Mods, Plates, Grenade, Nanohive) Militia: Operational Cost: = 7,505, 1,737,325 So the Profit for 5,000,000 people with Raven BPO would be 10 billion. The non-BPO clone would be: 8,686,625,000 So BPO EVERYTHING will keep an extra .99 billion in the game. 10%. The only BPO's that actually make a large impact are the Standard versions of Suits and Light Weapon which save the user 4,500. So it comes down to this, in our theoretical discussion; what is worth more: About 365 billion from the year of BPO's or the 6 months of PC isk farming?
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1627	Posted - 2014.02.19 18:37:00 - [68] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: It's not that much of a problem. John Demonsbane proposed the most likely solution above: BPO manufacturing will still have a mineral input cost. Imo the PC income is pretty obviously the biggest driver of ISK inflation in DUST. Wrt the size of the DUST EVE economies, it's already been shown that DUST's economy is already giving EVE a run for it's money, and that's with our pathetically low player numbers. Wrt to balancing the economies it will be possible. Prolly the most stable solution would be to balance around extraction of strategic resources common to both economies. There could still be clones, but clone manufacture would go from being magic to being a manufacturuing process that had material inputs. For this we want clones to become a commodity in EVE first, and in DUST as well - right now we're not paying for our clones in DUST pubs or FW - we prolly should be. We'll have an integrated economy, and for my money before this time next year. But it'll be kind of crippled in terms of gameplay-generation for us in DUST if we don't have a robust contract system. What do you mine in high sec in EVE? because the ISk generation in incursions in high security space alone dwarfs DUST by ridiculous amounts... We aren't even getting into WH's, DED's, 0.0 as a whole... Even high security missions.. Then we can get to the whole economy being a decade old... DUST gives EVE a run for their money? Well, it's early days yet but there's this from last year's fanfest: "One final little tidbit to close with. CCP revealed that DUST players have spent an impressive 600 trillion ISK in the past year. By comparison, there's about 650 trillion ISK in player hands in EVE. If old tweets are any indication, EVE players trade somewhere between 500-700 trillion a year. By that metric, I'd say DUST is doing quite well!" source It looks like ISK destroyed in DUST is of the same order of magnitude as ISK traded in EVE. I support SP rollover.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 7317	Posted - 2014.02.19 18:39:00 - [69] - Quote Can I use exisiting EVE side assets to build my BPO already? Come on please say I can. "Just know that though our enemies may only #YOLO, through God's grace we can #YOLF at his side." - Disciple of Kesha
Drapedup Drippedout 0uter.Heaven 425	Posted - 2014.02.19 18:48:00 - [70] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I don't think it's that disturbing at all. Most of the BPO users that piling up ISK are not players that will affect the battlefield one way or the other whether they are in BPOs or in Proto. The problem with PC is that you are talking about a handful of players, the best players, that are pulling in ISK that they couldn't spend if they tried. A guy that runs a 10.0 KDR isn't going to spend a billion ISK on suits. You are right, but they can corner the player market when it does open. How is it so hard to see this coming? The deepest pockets will OWN the market. The deepest pockets are getting deeper from a passive isk farm in the hands of >300 players. As a lot of the players have said, a lot of people have BPO and thus the community feels the effect of BPO's equally. Until CCP releases ACTUAL DATA, all of this is speculation. There are 3 types of lies in this world: Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Present the facts and let us, the players, sift through the bullshit. Neighborhood Bully prof 5 "Gimme yo lunch money"

CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 44	Posted - 2014.02.19 19:02:00 - [71] - Quote Boy, do I have a lot say about this. Zeylon Rho wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Plantary Conquest. One of them "might" impact AUR sales. I'll give you guess as to which. Uh, both? Since holding districts in PC generates ISK, which is spent on non-AUR items, IGÇÖm pretty sure it also impacts AUR sales. SeriouslyGÇöanyone know the most expensive standard item on the market with a BPO equivalent? Almost certainly doesnGÇÖt cost more than about 5k, so youGÇÖve have to burn through 100s of them before youGÇÖd be getting into a 500k+ GÇ£replacementGÇ¥ cost. Just doesnGÇÖt make senseGÇöthe only people who die this much are new/bad players, and they need all the help they can get. Bethhy wrote: Blueprints even in lore where it just spawns another suit with no materials or ISK cost will never make sense no matter how convenient the operation is to my personal ISK making aspirations. Sure they make senseGÇöthe same way my Genolution GÇÿAuroralGÇÖ AU-79 implant (that grants me a golden pod, and which is automatically re-implanted in each new clone, which make it completely unlike any other implant in EVE) makes sense. It makes sense because itGÇÖs a reflection of my toonGÇÖs clout with the NPC corps of New Eden. That is, I payed CCP RL monies and this is my reward. The Robot Devil wrote: 5k deaths * Militia Assault Rifle @ 600 ISK = 3M just for the militia rifle. This is an absurd hypothetical. Not even the most banal player in Dust would die 5000 times only using militia gear. IGÇÖve been playing for almost a year and donGÇÖt even have 5000 deaths (and I do regularly)! The subject of this hypothetical deserves to pay 3m ISK for his 5000 militia AR deaths. Kristoff Atruin wrote: ... If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany. ...The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast. BPOs do not create ISK in the GÇ£economyGÇ¥. In fact, BPOs donGÇÖt effect the GÇ£economyGÇ¥ at all, since a player isnGÇÖt spending ISK on those standard items for which he has BPO equivalents. This saved ISK is either hoarded (ie, not effecting the economy) or spent on advanced+ gear (because why would the player spend ISK on lame gear that he has an infinite supply of? And besides, isnGÇÖt this what the CCP economists wantGÇöplayers spending ISK?). Without BPOs, such a player might spend some ISK on lame (and super cheap in any case) standard gear in order to run fits GÇ£at a profitGÇ¥, but in my experience, itGÇÖs easier to make a pretty penny running adv+. Also, Weimar GermanyGÇÖs problem was the same as the United StateGÇÖs today: deficit spending of fiat money. What do you think will happen when you spend more money than you magically pull out of your ass? I guess thatGÇÖs why you never see pirate alts running incursionsGÇª Have you seen my baseball?
RailTank QQ SAM-MIK 4	Posted - 2014.02.19 19:12:00 - [72] - Quote Boy, do I have a lot say about this. Zeylon Rho wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Plantary Conquest. One of them "might" impact AUR sales. I'll give you guess as to which. Uh, both? Since holding districts in PC generates ISK, which is spent on non-AUR items, IGÇÖm pretty sure it also impacts AUR sales. SeriouslyGÇöanyone know the most expensive standard item on the market with a BPO equivalent? Almost certainly doesnGÇÖt cost more than about 5k, so youGÇÖve have to burn through 100s of them before youGÇÖd be getting into a 500k+ GÇ£replacementGÇ¥ cost. Just doesnGÇÖt make senseGÇöthe only people who die this much are new/bad players, and they need all the help they can get. Bethhy wrote: Blueprints even in lore where it just spawns another suit with no materials or ISK cost will never make sense no matter how convenient the operation is to my personal ISK making aspirations. Sure they make senseGÇöthe same way my Genolution GÇÿAuroralGÇÖ AU-79 implant (that grants me a golden pod, and which is automatically re-implanted in each new clone, which make it completely unlike any other implant in EVE) makes sense. It makes sense because itGÇÖs a reflection of my toonGÇÖs clout with the NPC corps of New Eden. That is, I payed CCP RL monies and this is my reward. The Robot Devil wrote: 5k deaths * Militia Assault Rifle @ 600 ISK = 3M just for the militia rifle. This is an absurd hypothetical. Not even the most banal player in Dust would die 5000 times only using militia gear. IGÇÖve been playing for almost a year and donGÇÖt even have 5000 deaths (and I do regularly)! The subject of this hypothetical deserves to pay 3m ISK for his 5000 militia AR deaths. Kristoff Atruin wrote: ... If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany. ...The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast. BPOs do not create ISK in the GÇ£economyGÇ¥. In fact, BPOs donGÇÖt effect the GÇ£economyGÇ¥ at all, since a player isnGÇÖt spending ISK on those standard items for which he has BPO equivalents. This saved ISK is either hoarded (ie, not effecting the economy) or spent on advanced+ gear (because why would the player spend ISK on lame gear that he has an infinite supply of? And besides, isnGÇÖt this what the CCP economists wantGÇöplayers spending ISK?). Without BPOs, such a player might spend some ISK on lame (and super cheap in any case) standard gear in order to run fits GÇ£at a profitGÇ¥, but in my experience, itGÇÖs easier to make a pretty penny running adv+. Also, Weimar GermanyGÇÖs problem was the same as the United StateGÇÖs today: deficit spending of fiat money. What do you think will happen when you spend more money than you magically pull out of your ass? I guess thatGÇÖs why you never see pirate alts running incursionsGÇª Can't tell if trolling or economically challenged. Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1707	Posted - 2014.02.19 19:23:00 - [73] - Quote rofl >"BPOs do not create ISK in the GÇ£economyGÇ¥ They don't create isk directly, but they stop isk from leaving through the sinks. That means the net effect is the addition of isk to the economy. This isn't exactly advanced math here, it's just addition and subtraction. Across all players who have and use BPOs regularly the impact should be stunningly obvious.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1682	Posted - 2014.02.20 11:59:00 - [74] - Quote I just saw this in another post and wanted to to see it Cat. I don't exploit PC to fatten my wallet, I just run around in my Templar gear or ADV gear to boost my ISK. When I first got my Templar gear, I went from around 20m to 50m in 2.5 weeks. I will link it proper when I get to a PC and not my stupid smart phone. "You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." Raoul Duke
Fiddle McBums Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.02.20 12:31:00 - [75] - Quote What is a BPO???
Sergamon Draco Rautaleijona Top Men. 300	Posted - 2014.02.20 13:27:00 - [76] - Quote I use BPO pub/fw matches,in pc (those rare occasions) i use pro gear Fck the kdr,i`m going in
Sergamon Draco Rautaleijona Top Men. 300	Posted - 2014.02.20 13:27:00 - [77] - Quote Fiddle McBums wrote: What is a BPO??? free of cost gears Fck the kdr,i`m going in
knight of 6 SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1453	Posted - 2014.02.20 14:03:00 - [78] - Quote so does this include starter fits? GÇ£The universe is a big place, perhaps the biggest.GÇ¥ ~ Kurt Vonnegut Ko6, scout. CLOSED BETA VET
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 46	Posted - 2014.02.20 17:58:00 - [79] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: rofljavascript:insertsmiley('','/Images/Emoticons/ccp_smile.png') >"BPOs do not create ISK in the GÇ£economyGÇ¥ They don't create isk directly, but they stop isk from leaving through the sinks. That means the net effect is the addition of isk to the economy. This isn't exactly advanced math here, it's just addition and subtraction. Across all players who have and use BPOs regularly the impact should be stunningly obvious. Glad it was good for a laugh, chief, but it might be useful for you to frame the statement with its follow-up explanation. I've taken the liberty here: CRNWLLC wrote: This saved ISK is either hoarded (ie, not effecting the economy) or spent on advanced+ gear (because why would the player spend ISK on lame gear that he has an infinite supply of? And besides, isnGÇÖt this what the CCP economists wantGÇöplayers spending ISK?). Without BPOs, such a player might spend some ISK on lame (and super cheap in any case) standard gear in order to run fits GÇ£at a profitGÇ¥, but in my experience, itGÇÖs easier to make a pretty penny running adv+. What you don't seem to understand is that hoarded ISK does not create ISK in the "economy" since it is hoarded--ie, it's out of circulation. Moreover, what you seem insistent on ignoring, is that there is no actual money circulation, which precludes any serious discussion of an "economy". Until ISK and items move between players, there's no worry of inflation or deflation or any of that other pseudo-intellectual crap. Every player currently (and in the foreseeable future) has the ability to make (in theory) tens of millions of ISK a week running starter fits, so this will continue to be a non-issue. Making a lot of ISK is also accomplished by not dying a lot, which I'll come back to again in a moment. You mention that, cumulatively, the use of BPOs should be "stunningly obvious". And yet, it's not. The standard level gear that it's based on costs the same as it always has. This is true for all items in the marketplace--you don't see floating prices because there is no economy. Now consider a proto-level player (SP invested into at least one proto suit and one proto-level weapon with max support skills) that doesn't die a lot and exclusively runs adv+. Not dying a lot, this player doesn't spend much ISK, period. They've got a boatload in their wallet, and they replace a few pieces of shiney on occasion, but by-and-large, they're hoarding cash. Does this player's lack of deaths (and associated lack of ISK spending/"leaving through the sinks") hurt the "economy"? You'd think (by extension of the argument that "free" gear, which doesn't need replacing and thereby also avoids ISK spending) this would be the case, and yet it somehow rings hollow. Care to enlighten me here? You're right, though--it's not advanced math. It's not math at all. It has to do with logic and semantics. Have you seen my baseball?
Eberk Baldek Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 25	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:07:00 - [80] - Quote If it weren't for all the BPO gear I've had since the very first day I started playing DUST, I don't think I would have kept playing this game. I played only with militia suits for the first time for several hours one day last week and did a heck of a lot of dying. How depressing! Although I did manage a few kills, I can only imagine what it's like for first-time players. Most of the time it's too friggin' easy to kill them. But I do farm a lot of ISK with those BPO suits/weapons so I can occasionally wear Proto Gear in Corp matches. And I don't consider laying down Drop Uplinks and Nanohives to be all spam. That sounds something like what a trolling InvinciTankStomper might say. They'll never be happy unless they can just camp a slaughter-location and not have to search around for their meat. In most games, I'm able to open up other locations for spawning for the losing side. The worst thing that can happen to you is to get trapped. Are they thinking of nerffing BPO gear too? Is that why they've mentioned it at the same time they were talking about Planetary Conquest? I'm not sure I'm all that comfortable with all the reneging that CCP does (eg: the nerffing of gear that I've spent months developing). But, at this point it wouldn't suprise me.

Eberk Baldek Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 25	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:09:00 - [81] - Quote Fiddle McBums wrote: What is a BPO??? From Dust Wiki: Blue Print Original All items can be found under one of two categories: Blue Print Copies (BPCs) (currently called a "Regular Item" in DUST) or Blue Print Originals (BPOs; currently called a "Blueprint" in DUST). BPOs are permanent items, requiring only a single purchase to be able to be used an infinite amount of times with no additional cost. These blueprints can currently only be purchased with Aurum. BPOs can be distinguished in the in-game Marketplace from BPCs by distinctive blue borders around the item thumbnail. In the fitting screen, certain blueprint originals have yellow borders. These blueprints usually come with special fittings from events and more commonly, the starter fits. This means the blueprint is bound to that dropsuit. If the dropsuit runs out, so do all those items. However, the starter fit dropsuits are blueprint originals as well, so these bound items will last indefinitely unless they are edited out of the fitting.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2895	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:09:00 - [82] - Quote Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: I don't think it's that disturbing at all. Most of the BPO users that piling up ISK are not players that will affect the battlefield one way or the other whether they are in BPOs or in Proto. The problem with PC is that you are talking about a handful of players, the best players, that are pulling in ISK that they couldn't spend if they tried. A guy that runs a 10.0 KDR isn't going to spend a billion ISK on suits. You are right, but they can corner the player market when it does open. How is it so hard to see this coming? The deepest pockets will OWN the market. The deepest pockets are getting deeper from a passive isk farm in the hands of >300 players. If you live in America, ever heard of "the 1%"? As a lot of the players have said, a lot of people have BPO and thus the community feels the effect of BPO's equally. Until CCP releases ACTUAL DATA, all of this is speculation. There are 3 types of lies in this world: Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Present the facts and let us, the players, sift through the bullshit. I agree, I've been saying this since Eon was dominating PC. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 46	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:14:00 - [83] - Quote Eberk Baldek wrote: If it weren't for all the BPO gear I've had since the very first day I started playing DUST, I don't think I would have kept playing this game. I played only with militia suits for the first time for several hours one day last week and did a heck of a lot of dying. How depressing! Although I did manage a few kills, I can only imagine what it's like for first-time players. Most of the time it's too friggin' easy to kill them. But I do farm a lot of ISK with those BPO suits/weapons so I can occasionally wear Proto Gear in Corp matches. And I don't consider laying down Drop Uplinks and Nanohives to be all spam. That sounds something like what a trolling InvinciTankStomper might say. They'll never be happy unless they can just camp a slaughter-location and not have to search around for their meat. In most games, I'm able to open up other locations for spawning for the losing side. The worst thing that can happen to you is to get trapped. Are they thinking of nerffing BPO gear too? Is that why they've mentioned it at the same time they were talking about Planetary Conquest? I'm not sure I'm all that comfortable with all the reneging that CCP does (eg: the nerffing of gear that I've spent months developing). But, at this point it wouldn't suprise me. Yes, yes, and YES. Glad to have another player state clearly that BPOs have been a significant part of what kept them around. I've said numerous times that BPOs can help retain new/inexperienced players. In short: CRNWLLC wrote: I think the BPO problem is solved by returning them to their former glory, possibly making more (racial variants?) of them, available to all, non-tradable, and never better than standard (except for the top-tier recruiting reward, because if you can pull that off, you deserve something extra special, you charismatic b@stard, you). This won't negatively impact the "economy" because there's pressure from the player base to run adv+ level gear (ie, other players are doing it and if they're as good as or better than you, they're likely to come out on top if they have better equipment too). Full text here, with more soap-box standing here. Have you seen my baseball?
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1707	Posted - 2014.02.20 18:19:00 - [84] - Quote CRNWLLC wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: rofljavascript:insertsmiley('','/Images/Emoticons/ccp_smile.png') >"BPOs do not create ISK in the GÇ£economyGÇ¥ They don't create isk directly, but they stop isk from leaving through the sinks. That means the net effect is the addition of isk to the economy. This isn't exactly advanced math here, it's just addition and subtraction. Across all players who have and use BPOs regularly the impact should be stunningly obvious. Glad it was good for a laugh, chief, but it might be useful for you to frame the statement with its follow-up explanation. I've taken the liberty here: CRNWLLC wrote: This saved ISK is either hoarded (ie, not effecting the economy) or spent on advanced+ gear (because why would the player spend ISK on lame gear that he has an infinite supply of? And besides, isnGÇÖt this what the CCP economists wantGÇöplayers spending ISK?). Without BPOs, such a player might spend some ISK on lame (and super cheap in any case) standard gear in order to run fits GÇ£at a profitGÇ¥, but in my experience, itGÇÖs easier to make a pretty penny running adv+. What you don't seem to understand is that hoarded ISK does not create ISK in the "economy" since it is hoarded--ie, it's out of circulation. Moreover, what you seem insistent on ignoring, is that there is no actual money circulation, which precludes any serious discussion of an "economy". Until ISK and items move between players, there's no worry of inflation or deflation or any of that other pseudo-intellectual crap. Every player currently (and in the foreseeable future) has the ability to make (in theory) tens of millions of ISK a week running starter fits, so this will continue to be a non-issue. Making a lot of ISK is also accomplished by not dying a lot, which I'll come back to again in a moment. You mention that, cumulatively, the use of BPOs should be "stunningly obvious". And yet, it's not. The standard level gear that it's based on costs the same as it always has. This is true for all items in the marketplace--you don't see floating prices because there is no economy. Now consider a proto-level player (SP invested into at least one proto suit and one proto-level weapon with max support skills) that doesn't die a lot and exclusively runs adv+. Not dying a lot, this player doesn't spend much ISK, period. They've got a boatload in their wallet, and they replace a few pieces of shiney on occasion, but by-and-large, they're hoarding cash. Does this player's lack of deaths (and associated lack of ISK spending/"leaving through the sinks") hurt the "economy"? You'd think (by extension of the argument that "free" gear, which doesn't need replacing and thereby also avoids ISK spending) this would be the case, and yet it somehow rings hollow. Care to enlighten me here? You're right, though--it's not advanced math. It's not math at all. It has to do with logic and semantics. I understand the concept of circulation and velocity quite well actually. What you seem to have trouble understanding is that they can't let us start circulating isk when the creation of new isk is completely out of control. The player market would take three steps forward and then fall flat on its face, because the inflation would be instantaneous. Their first goal is to get the creation and destruction of isk into balance to remove the risks.
RailTank QQ SAM-MIK 13	Posted - 2014.02.20 19:19:00 - [85] - Quote Dear everyone having a hard time understanding why the current BPOs set up is bad for the economy (as well as pc isk factories) please pull out your high school econ books and read the sections on supply and demand, scarcity of resources and and how large capital reserves affect those things. And then realize that if BPOs weren't a cluster frogking mess, the would still be sold with reckless abandon because CCP makes good money off selling them. And also trust that the doctoral, professional economists hired by CCP to observe and tinker with these economies knows perhaps far more than we do. If you still have problems understanding the complexity of this issue after all of this, be sure to have a CPA do your taxes, for your own good Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
Yokal Bob G.R.A.V.E INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 394	Posted - 2014.02.20 19:40:00 - [86] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Planetary Conquest. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Edit 2: It makes sense people. PC affects a small portion of the players, while BPO's are very very widely used. Wow!! i dont even use most of my bpos CPM1 candidate I want my logi tank back
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3472	Posted - 2014.02.20 20:05:00 - [87] - Quote Drapedup Drippedout wrote: You are right, but they can corner the player market when it does open. How is it so hard to see this coming? The deepest pockets will OWN the market. The deepest pockets are getting deeper from a passive isk farm in the hands of >300 players. If you live in America, ever heard of "the 1%"? This is my larger concern with the PC issue: the imbalance factor. It's hard for me to take CCP completely seriously as far as "concern for the economy" because they've let the PC issue run unchecked for a long long time after being informed of how broken it is. I figure BPOs were removed in part to make the AUR items more appealing in contrast. I'm not saying that removing BPOs in fact did that, but I think that was at least part of the rationale. Economy-wise, they're likely to cause inflation to some degree, but they were also available to anyone. So, it's an equal opportunity problem. They were actually sold to us with the express descriptions of "never running out", "infinite", and "free". So, I figure that's just a portion of their economy they'll have to live with some inflation in. This is aside from the fact that everyone has BPOs... the starter fits, and I'd be curious to see if those were part of the calculation. The PC issue is different in the sense of concentrating wealth in one spot. Inflation and a lack of demand for certain standard items can be relatively minor issues, but a huge wealth concentration in a small set of players with anti-social tendencies (most people in New Eden, really) has far more potential to "ruin" a market or economy. If they could do things like buy "all" the droplinks, all of X newbie equipment, etc., then that's potentially a larger threat to New Players than inflation. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 48	Posted - 2014.02.20 23:07:00 - [88] - Quote RailTank QQ wrote: Dear everyone having a hard time understanding why the current BPOs set up is bad for the economy (as well as pc isk factories) please pull out your high school econ books and read the sections on supply and demand, scarcity of resources and and how large capital reserves affect those things. And then realize that if BPOs weren't a cluster frogking mess, the would still be sold with reckless abandon because CCP makes good money off selling them. And also trust that the doctoral, professional economists hired by CCP to observe and tinker with these economies knows perhaps far more than we do. If you still have problems understanding the complexity of this issue after all of this, be sure to have a CPA do your taxes, for your own good Now this is genuinely ROFLable! Let's trust CCP employees, not least because that's worked out so well in the past, but because they have a pretty framed piece of paper that they got for writing something that no one else will ever read! Such intellectual elitism! But never mind me, fellow players! It's not like economists and their ilk (CPAs included) have ever done anything so massively, unbelievably ******** as to seriously eff-up the lives of millions! TRUST THEM! Have you seen my baseball?
Patrick57 Fatal Absolution 5310	Posted - 2014.02.20 23:22:00 - [89] - Quote I've said this before :( Fatal Absolution's official bench warmer (scoot over Faquira) and mascot I go negative in PC, yay
JP Acuna Pendejitos Canis Eliminatus Operatives 68	Posted - 2014.02.20 23:49:00 - [90] - Quote So... who is harmed by this? Why players are so concerned about BPOs? Our economy is standing still anyway, all ISK prices are fixed, all items in the market are infinite, we have no player market to even mention such "economy". Corps that run PC and hold districts make lots of ISK, have huge wallets and can afford expensive fits all the time and still have millions to spare. BPOs don't make a wallet that big for players who don't fight PC battles or own a district(s). They still profit much less. It's just statistical, it doesn't have an important effect on anything really. There's no economy to "break".

Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 439	Posted - 2014.02.20 23:55:00 - [91] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Planetary Conquest. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Edit 2: It makes sense people. PC affects a small portion of the players, while BPO's are very very widely used. Right, I've scanned through the whole thread and I don't see any response that gives a rough breakdown of what percentage are starter suit BPOs, and what percentage is due to the Aurum bought BPOs. CCP would needs to be able to differentiate between them to actually have a statistic they can effectively use, rather than some blanket figure of more than 50%. As well, are they comparing the gross or net profit of PC to ISK saved through BPOs. If ye told me that Aurum BPOs saved people that much I'd be very surprised, but combining the two is just lie a cheap parlor trick that looks great until you scratch the surface.
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 439	Posted - 2014.02.21 00:08:00 - [92] - Quote JP Acuna wrote: So... who is harmed by this? Why players are so concerned about BPOs? Our economy is standing still anyway, all ISK prices are fixed, all items in the market are infinite, we have no player market to even mention such "economy". Corps that run PC and hold districts make lots of ISK, have huge wallets and can afford expensive fits all the time and still have millions to spare. BPOs don't make a wallet that big for players who don't fight PC battles or own a district(s). They still profit much less. It's just statistical, it doesn't have an important effect on anything really. There's no economy to "break". Yes, it actually is an issue. At present it isn't an issue, except for potential loss of Aurum sales for CCP, but for a dust player market and then the integration into the EvE market to happen, issues with BPOs have to be resolved.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2875	Posted - 2014.02.21 01:23:00 - [93] - Quote The world of difference is that BPOs don't generate passive ISK as PC farming does. A player has to get in match and play to earn the match reward. He is investing his time and is providing CCP with targets for their paying customers to shoot at. The low level of the gear means new players have a good chance of getting a fair fight. PC farming is a passive ISK fountain that directly funds proto stomping gear that is more likely to drive off new players. I'll take CCP's BPO concern seriously once they deal with the easy problem that is actually having a damaging effect on the game as it stands.
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 442	Posted - 2014.02.21 12:45:00 - [94] - Quote Skihids wrote: The world of difference is that BPOs don't generate passive ISK as PC farming does. A player has to get in match and play to earn the match reward. He is investing his time and is providing CCP with targets for their paying customers to shoot at. The low level of the gear means new players have a good chance of getting a fair fight. PC farming is a passive ISK fountain that directly funds proto stomping gear that is more likely to drive off new players. I'll take CCP's BPO concern seriously once they deal with the easy problem that is actually having a damaging effect on the game as it stands. I'm with you on that. What really gets me with PC locking is that CCP knew this was a potential exploit from the beginning when FoxFour stated that they knew about it but were just going to wait and see, yet they didn't have a fix ready to go in case it went wrong, as it did, and after all this time still haven't put together a fix. As you said, fix PC and then have a look at BPOs.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3477	Posted - 2014.02.21 13:36:00 - [95] - Quote Skihids wrote: The world of difference is that BPOs don't generate passive ISK as PC farming does. A player has to get in match and play to earn the match reward. He is investing his time and is providing CCP with targets for their paying customers to shoot at. The low level of the gear means new players have a good chance of getting a fair fight. PC farming is a passive ISK fountain that directly funds proto stomping gear that is more likely to drive off new players. I'll take CCP's BPO concern seriously once they deal with the easy problem that is actually having a damaging effect on the game as it stands. This is a great point. I've barely played since the TTK issues ramped up around 1.5/1.6 outside of some events. I can assure you, my BPOs didn't make me any passive income during that time period of not-playing (unless you're counting the AUR they returned for the vehicle BPOs they nixed). BPOs save you money if you're: A) Playing B) Dying If you're not dying, then it doesn't matter what your equipment cost is (hello Thales). If you're not playing, then your BPOs don't magic up profits for you. Even then, the relative value of the BPOs as far as "lost isk" will only ever be as high as your deaths. People often to switch to Starter or BPO-fits when they KNOW they're going to die/die a lot. I think if a lot of the sold BPO fits didn't exist, we might just have people switching to starter fits when they know they'll die instead. Ergo, the sold BPO issue may be overblown or the data could be misleading in this instance. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1355	Posted - 2014.02.21 13:59:00 - [96] - Quote I-¦d trade in my BPOs for a years worth of passive and active boosters. Just sayin! Drop it like its hat.
Oxskull Duncarino 0uter.Heaven 443	Posted - 2014.02.21 14:48:00 - [97] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I-¦d trade in my BPOs for a years worth of passive and active boosters. Just sayin! I'd trade all mine in for new maps and game modes
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2879	Posted - 2014.02.21 14:51:00 - [98] - Quote No doubt the numbers themselves are accurate, but you need to be careful about the interpretation. I'm sure their economists could explain it to them, but I'll give it a shot here: The BPO "ISK loss' is just as real as the Recording Industry's estimate of losses due to illegal downloading. In this case it would be limited to the back catalog of "B" artists as the BPOs are all low level gear. A huge amount of the downloads would never have been purchased, and it's the same way with the equipment. A good deal of usage is just to fill a slot that would otherwise go empty if I had to pay for it. Or it goes on a suit that I'll use when I'm going up against a redline situation. Or it replaces a starter fit. Or it simply keeps me in the game instead of standing around in the back waiting for the match to end. The PC ISK is equivalent to opening the till and handing out cash to their friends to buy the latest albums. One loss is theoretical and the other real (at least as real as a virtual loss can be).
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1821	Posted - 2014.02.21 15:17:00 - [99] - Quote Bethhy wrote: TheD1CK wrote: So BPO users made more ISK than PC abusers.... Yeah, this needs proof before i'll believe that It makes sense when you think of how big the player pool is in PC... its tiny... I've been fighting with or against the same names for nearly a year... Nearly anyone that has played this game for a couple month period and had the option to buy a blueprint that fits their gameplay... Bought one and usually uses it in Pubs' to grind ISK. And this player pool is a majority of DUST. If you merely look at the max potential of ISK generated per day in PC.... And then think about the potential ISK income from Pub payouts running all day with 100% profit from BPO use. The amount of ISK generated from those BPO with absolutely no loss or cost.. is economy breaking. Yeah, I don't see why this is a surprise to anyone. Virtually no one plays PC. Unfortunately, PC has always been an inconsequential part of Dust.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 2077	Posted - 2014.02.21 16:23:00 - [100] - Quote Skihids wrote: No doubt the numbers themselves are accurate, but you need to be careful about the interpretation. I'm sure their economists could explain it to them, but I'll give it a shot here: The BPO "ISK loss' is just as real as the Recording Industry's estimate of losses due to illegal downloading. In this case it would be limited to the back catalog of "B" artists as the BPOs are all low level gear. A huge amount of the downloads would never have been purchased, and it's the same way with the equipment. A good deal of usage is just to fill a slot that would otherwise go empty if I had to pay for it. Or it goes on a suit that I'll use when I'm going up against a redline situation. Or it replaces a starter fit. Or it simply keeps me in the game instead of standing around in the back waiting for the match to end. The PC ISK is equivalent to opening the till and handing out cash to their friends to buy the latest albums. One loss is theoretical and the other real (at least as real as a virtual loss can be). Great analysis. +1. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Forum Warrior lv.2 Amarr victor!

CRNWLLC Screwy Rabbit ULC 52	Posted - 2014.02.21 17:03:00 - [101] - Quote Skihids wrote: No doubt the numbers themselves are accurate, but you need to be careful about the interpretation. I'm sure their economists could explain it to them, but I'll give it a shot here: The BPO "ISK loss' is just as real as the Recording Industry's estimate of losses due to illegal downloading. In this case it would be limited to the back catalog of "B" artists as the BPOs are all low level gear. A huge amount of the downloads would never have been purchased, and it's the same way with the equipment. A good deal of usage is just to fill a slot that would otherwise go empty if I had to pay for it. Or it goes on a suit that I'll use when I'm going up against a redline situation. Or it replaces a starter fit. Or it simply keeps me in the game instead of standing around in the back waiting for the match to end. The PC ISK is equivalent to opening the till and handing out cash to their friends to buy the latest albums. One loss is theoretical and the other real (at least as real as a virtual loss can be). I think the PC analysis is spot-on, except I'd say the anti-BPO argument is even more ridiculous. The recording industry analogy is a little faulty, since illegal downloads are, well, illegal, and BPOs were purchased with an RL cash-equivalent (AUR) on the Dust market. Really, the analogy is more like purchasing a track from a media distribution service, such as the iTunes store, etc., since you can purchase it and use it (ie, listen to it) without ever having to "restock" it. That's the deal, same as the Dust marketplace. Except actually, that's not the entire scope of the situation. Since Apple and similar companies are not minting the money used to purchase these digital goods from their respective marketplaces--as is the case with CCP, ISK/AUR, and the Dust marketplace--the situation is even further removed from typical notions of an "economy". I suppose the strongest counterargument in this case would be purchases made with marketplace-specific giftcards, but even then, those giftcards are exchangeable between members of the communities to which they are sold. Dust players cannot exchange AUR or the fruits of their RL monetary investments in the game. I think the strongest part of this analysis is the admission that BPOs will keep this player in the game on certain occasions. I totally relate to this, as does at least one other poster on this thread. I'd say that this is analogous to downloading some new music (legally or otherwise, not too important for this point) and discovering you actually really like it, which leads you to download more by the same/similar artist/s (ie, try a BPO, like it, train into those skills, buy adv+ or tactical, etc., versions of those items eventually). Basically, they're a good starting point, and there will always be times when you need to return to your roots! Personally, since the cost of standard-level gear is so low, I have no problem forking over minimal SP and ISK to use standard variants of items for which I do not own BPOs (eg, nanohives), and which I have determined to be less important investments than support skills, etc. Have you seen my baseball?
pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 1570	Posted - 2014.02.21 17:13:00 - [102] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Plantary Conquest. I call bullshit CCP data. It ain't bullshit. Give us the data or we shall have to cut off your tuna and catnip supplies. Proud Gunlogi pilot and forge gunner since August 2012. Why bother running you'll only die tired.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1644	Posted - 2014.02.21 18:03:00 - [103] - Quote Oxskull Duncarino wrote: Skihids wrote: The world of difference is that BPOs don't generate passive ISK as PC farming does. A player has to get in match and play to earn the match reward. He is investing his time and is providing CCP with targets for their paying customers to shoot at. The low level of the gear means new players have a good chance of getting a fair fight. PC farming is a passive ISK fountain that directly funds proto stomping gear that is more likely to drive off new players. I'll take CCP's BPO concern seriously once they deal with the easy problem that is actually having a damaging effect on the game as it stands. I'm with you on that. What really gets me with PC locking is that CCP knew this was a potential exploit from the beginning when FoxFour stated that they knew about it but were just going to wait and see, yet they didn't have a fix ready to go in case it went wrong, as it did, and after all this time still haven't put together a fix. As you said, fix PC and then have a look at BPOs. +1 and +1. Great analysis, gents. I support SP rollover.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2886	Posted - 2014.02.21 19:47:00 - [104] - Quote What's more is that there is no meaningful economy and what there is is determined solely by CCP via the public match payouts. In a real economy you have upkeep expenses. We don't pay rent, we don't worry about utilities. In a real economy you have choices about what you want to buy. Here we don't have any luxury goods. The only thing we can buy are supplies with which to fight. Why do we fight? Because it is our form of recreation. There is no reason to fight other than the joy of combat. We can't spend our pay on anything other than the ability to fight, and we don't need to fight. We could stand in our quarters until the end of the universe. Absent any luxury goods all our pay will go toward more equipment. If we save a few ISK with a BPO, that ISK will just get spent on higher tier gear. Why? Well, what else is there to do with it? And since we are just here for gladiatorial combat we want the best gear we can afford. So rather than shrink the economy, BPOs actually have zero effect. Excluding a little bit of savings all of the public match payouts will be spent on gear. The more the NPCs pay out, the more expensive gear gets fielded. If the payouts shrink, then the cost of the gear goes down to match. Why? Well, we can't spend what we don't have, and why not spend it? The problem comes in when payouts are made outside of the normal match system. PC farmers get a concentrated ISK injection that allow them to dramatically outspend anyone not farming. So rather than the general level of gear going up, only a small segment of the population's gear goes up. And it goes up all out of proportion, funding full time proto. Instead of everyone playing with neat toys most of the players are frustrated when they meet the farmers in match. Despite any protestations to the contrary, I don't see where CCP is aware or concerned about the issue.
Ku Shala Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 880	Posted - 2014.02.21 19:51:00 - [105] - Quote so a maybe 20 k starter fit vs 30, 40? districts making 150 000 000 isk every 24 hours is the litterbox full or do I smell catsh!t? *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä* The States Necromancer Scan Attempt Prevented
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1826	Posted - 2014.02.21 19:54:00 - [106] - Quote Skihids wrote: What's more is that there is no meaningful economy and what there is is determined solely by CCP via the public match payouts. In a real economy you have upkeep expenses. We don't pay rent, we don't worry about utilities. In a real economy you have choices about what you want to buy. Here we don't have any luxury goods. The only thing we can buy are supplies with which to fight. Why do we fight? Because it is our form of recreation. There is no reason to fight other than the joy of combat. We can't spend our pay on anything other than the ability to fight, and we don't need to fight. We could stand in our quarters until the end of the universe. Absent any luxury goods all our pay will go toward more equipment. If we save a few ISK with a BPO, that ISK will just get spent on higher tier gear. Why? Well, what else is there to do with it? And since we are just here for gladiatorial combat we want the best gear we can afford. So rather than shrink the economy, BPOs actually have zero effect. Excluding a little bit of savings all of the public match payouts will be spent on gear. The more the NPCs pay out, the more expensive gear gets fielded. If the payouts shrink, then the cost of the gear goes down to match. Why? Well, we can't spend what we don't have, and why not spend it? The problem comes in when payouts are made outside of the normal match system. PC farmers get a concentrated ISK injection that allow them to dramatically outspend anyone not farming. So rather than the general level of gear going up, only a small segment of the population's gear goes up. And it goes up all out of proportion, funding full time proto. Instead of everyone playing with neat toys most of the players are frustrated when they meet the farmers in match. Despite any protestations to the contrary, I don't see where CCP is aware or concerned about the issue. QFT
Rusty Shallows 1005	Posted - 2014.02.21 22:25:00 - [107] - Quote It is hypocritical of CCP to have a problem with BPOs but none with consumable AUR. The first Burn Jita should have definitively told them real money has no place in virtual markets. If they truly believe there is a problem then both need to go. Spectral Clone wrote: I-¦d trade in my BPOs for a years worth of passive and active boosters. Just sayin! F-Yeah! Instead of the crappy useless AUR the last BPO removal should have had a Booster trade in option. CCP should offer one 30-Day Passive Omega and two 30-Day Active Omegas per BPO. Skill Points > Boosters > BPOs > AUR > ISK Here, have some candy and a Like. :-) Forums > Game


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