DUST Search - Well, this is disturbing to say the least

Bethhy wrote:

Kristoff Atruin wrote:

Darken-Soul wrote:

Kristoff Atruin wrote:

Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation.

Explain this a bit more.

The economy is the creation and destruction of isk. Isk is clearly being created and destroyed, and CCP studies this stuff. Their economist had a presentation at last year's fanfest about the Dust economy. Getting the creation and destruction of isk into balance is the biggest stumbling block to get over before the Dust economy can begin to merge with Eve. If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany.

They will never merge the two economies... The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some.

The best they EVER talked about with EVE and DUST economies is the EVE side being able to build Warbarges and buy tanks and LAV's to drop in for DUST Mercenaries on campaigns....

And for DUST the best they ever talked about was the players controlling the planetary resources and selling it to the EVE player base... and I believe this was more players talking and Dev's musing it.

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Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1702	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:21:00 - [31] - Quote It makes sense to me, most of the time in pubs I'm running fits that use a lot of BPOs and cost 11,000 isk or less. I make around the same amount of isk from those matches as ones where I spend 50k per suit, which means I'm making around 150k more per pub match than if I didn't use BPOs. Say I run 10 matches in a night this way, and only play 25 days out of the month. That's an extra 37.5 million isk coming into the economy, from one person. If just 1500 people are doing what I'm doing, that's over 56 billion isk every month being injected into the economy. A lot of people play longer sessions than I do, so this is a conservative number. There are 245 districts in Molden Heath. Assuming each one is generating 7 million isk per day (after expenses, differing structures etc) that would be 51.5 billion isk per month. 56 > 52
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1702	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:23:00 - [32] - Quote They could figure out how much was saved because they have a log of every death and what items were on the suit. Blueprint items are marked as such, so they just need to tally up the number of items lost and use the isk value of the equivalent item from the market.
Sgt Buttscratch Edimmu Warfighters 1709	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:25:00 - [33] - Quote They would say that...... reality is with people owning BPO's thewerent feeling the need to buy these 'neo' suits and whatever other AUR gears that BPO's covered... I stick my weiner in two buns and and then give it the gas Sour cream from my spleen into Levi jeans
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1625	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:27:00 - [34] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Planetary Conquest. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Edit 2: It makes sense people. PC affects a small portion of the players, while BPO's are very very widely used. From my perspective, it's the price CCP has to pay for tank spam & RR heavies. I'm now running SVER logi and Exile AR almost exclusively in all matches. Previously i was running all-ISK minny ADV assault with mostly proto mods. I'll bet i'm not alone. I support SP rollover.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6649	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:28:00 - [35] - Quote Sgt Buttscratch wrote: They would say that...... reality is with people owning BPO's thewerent feeling the need to buy these 'neo' suits and whatever other AUR gears that BPO's covered... Too bad there is no militia AUR gear huh Now, as far as the STD gear goes... Look at the Aurum prices for STD gear. Now look at the AUR prices for STD BPO's. (Used to be around 28k AUR IIRC) Do you feel your conspiracy crumbling yet? Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1625	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:35:00 - [36] - Quote Bethhy wrote: TheD1CK wrote: So BPO users made more ISK than PC abusers.... Yeah, this needs proof before i'll believe that It makes sense when you think of how big the player pool is in PC... its tiny... I've been fighting with or against the same names for nearly a year... Nearly anyone that has played this game for a couple month period and had the option to buy a blueprint that fits their gameplay... Bought one and usually uses it in Pubs' to grind ISK. And this player pool is a majority of DUST. If you merely look at the max potential of ISK generated per day in PC.... And then think about the potential ISK income from Pub payouts running all day with 100% profit from BPO use. The amount of ISK generated from those BPO with absolutely no loss or cost.. is economy breaking. ^ This. When we look at the ~2500 to 4500 logged in users, most running pubs, how many are using one or two BPOs in their loadouts? ISK saved would add up fast. I support SP rollover.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2636	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:46:00 - [37] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Still no source Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Big whoop no source Anyways BPO dont ruin any economy since we dont have one and all BPOs are basic anyways Intelligence is OP
xSivartx D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 19	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:46:00 - [38] - Quote Add the spike in starter suits I see in pubs being used. Are these counted as BPOs? There are those newer players that have not purchased the BPOs and now run slightly altered starter fits. What impact have these on the stats?
SteelDark Knight Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 250	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:48:00 - [39] - Quote Just some simple math to see if this statement is feasible: 1 Player running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings: = 2,000,000 Profit. 100 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings: = 200,000,000 Profit 1,000 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings = 2,000,000,000 Profit 5,000 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings = 10,000,000,000 Profit Seems legit.
The Attorney General 2112	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:50:00 - [40] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: 5k deaths * Militia Assault Rifle @ 600 ISK = 3M just for the militia rifle. Exile says hello, as does the Toxin. More savings! Mr. Hybrid Vayu.

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6649	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:53:00 - [41] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Still no source Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Big whoop no source Anyways BPO dont ruin any economy since we dont have one and all BPOs are basic anyways Question. What reason would I have to lie? I want BPO's to stay, I have pretty much every single one DIUST ever had, and trying to get the templar gear. So what incentive would I have to do this? Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 877	Posted - 2014.02.19 15:55:00 - [42] - Quote Its all fake. The only real money is applied to your PSN account. Pub matches pay out miracle money. Its created at the end of every match. Why doesn't this hurt the economy? Because there is no economy. Who wants some?
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1703	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:00:00 - [43] - Quote Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation.
Haerr Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 271	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:01:00 - [44] - Quote lol, how large part of the ISK savings comes from the free LAVs? Apparently "Haerr" means "Hare"... Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm a hunted wabbit!
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 877	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:05:00 - [45] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation. Explain this a bit more. Who wants some?
CLONE117 planetary retaliation organisation ACME Holding Conglomerate 683	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:07:00 - [46] - Quote i remember making on average per pubmatch around 300k isk a game. now its around 100k or less... made the same 300k on average in fw before it turned to useless loyalty points. what is happening here?...losing money more than making money. not a good sign.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6649	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:24:00 - [47] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation. Explain this a bit more. As soon as the open player market opens, **** is getting real. There is a reason why CCP have two economists watching the games. (One for each) Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1704	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:27:00 - [48] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation. Explain this a bit more. The economy is the creation and destruction of isk. Isk is clearly being created and destroyed, and CCP studies this stuff. Their economist had a presentation at last year's fanfest about the Dust economy. Getting the creation and destruction of isk into balance is the biggest stumbling block to get over before the Dust economy can begin to merge with Eve. If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2883	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:31:00 - [49] - Quote I don't think it's that disturbing at all. Most of the BPO users that piling up ISK are not players that will affect the battlefield one way or the other whether they are in BPOs or in Proto. The problem with PC is that you are talking about a handful of players, the best players, that are pulling in ISK that they couldn't spend if they tried. A guy that runs a 10.0 KDR isn't going to spend a billion ISK on suits. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 2517	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:34:00 - [50] - Quote People who do PC can afford to run Proto suits all the time. Everyone else loses money running advanced suits. So if they have BPOGÇÖs they run BPOGÇÖs to save ISK so they can occasionally run Advanced or Proto gear. (If they were good enough to go ISK positive in Advanced or Proto suits they would be in a PC Corp.) The discrepancy in ISK made from PC versus ISK saved through BPOGÇÖs is a matter of there being vastly more players who are forced to grind ISK in public matches using BPOGÇÖs than there are who get their ISK through PC. Essentially it all comes down to this: - Good players play PC, can afford to run Proto suits, and donGÇÖt die a lot because they are good. - Not so good players canGÇÖt get into PC, ware BPOGÇÖs to save ISK, and die constantly (thus saving a lot of ISK through the use of a BPO.) Or put another way, the more you die in a BPO the more ISK you save through the use of the BPO. If you put a Proto weapon on a BPO suit and die a lot in a match you can loose hundreds of thousands in ISK, while technically saving ISK through the use of a BPO suit. Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014

CYRAX SERVIUS Death Firm. Canis Eliminatus Operatives 945	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:43:00 - [51] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Still no source Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Big whoop no source Anyways BPO dont ruin any economy since we dont have one and all BPOs are basic anyways Exactly! CEO Whiskey squad leader Invictus Maneo~"I Remain Unvanquished"~
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 2049	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:52:00 - [52] - Quote 1) The point about people using starter fits instead of BPO's is a good one. With the low TTK and all the damn tanks it's inevitable this would happen. 2) The low payouts aren't some kind of conspiracy, get the tinfoil hats off. It's directly related to the lower cost of vehicles and people running cheaper gear (i.e., the BPOs or starter fits). ISK destroyed = ISK payout. 3) While it may be economy-breaking, I still have a hard time concluding it's AS economy-breaking as all the PC money, because of the existance of starter fits and the massive wealth disparity PC creates. The cost of officer weapons, for example, will be primarily driven by those PC funds, not the pittance 90% of the people running BPO's make. 4) Easy solution, as has been mentioned innumerable times, is manufacturing. You either pay some ISK (a small fraction of the true cost of the item) or use resources collected in salvage to create the items the BPO's are of. No need to take them away and enrage the torch-and-pitchfork-wielding masses, gives a little extra metagame, less economy-breaking, etc. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Forum Warrior lv.2 Amarr victor!
RailTank QQ SAM-MIK 1	Posted - 2014.02.19 16:53:00 - [53] - Quote CYRAX SERVIUS wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Still no source Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Big whoop no source Anyways BPO dont ruin any economy since we dont have one and all BPOs are basic anyways Exactly! The people who believe that DUST doesn't have a tangible economy must also believe that sub-prime lending doesn't lead to world-wide economic recessions/depressions. If anyone has been paying attention to what has been said in this thread, not only is Catmerc most likely speaking the truth, but we could be in more trouble than we thought because of the magical BPO problem. There's not really a quick and easy solution...well, there is but there would be a riot and many persons would actually leave the game. Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1252	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:02:00 - [54] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation. Explain this a bit more. The economy is the creation and destruction of isk. Isk is clearly being created and destroyed, and CCP studies this stuff. Their economist had a presentation at last year's fanfest about the Dust economy. Getting the creation and destruction of isk into balance is the biggest stumbling block to get over before the Dust economy can begin to merge with Eve. If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany. They will never merge the two economies... The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some. The best they EVER talked about with EVE and DUST economies is the EVE side being able to build Warbarges and buy tanks and LAV's to drop in for DUST Mercenaries on campaigns.... And for DUST the best they ever talked about was the players controlling the planetary resources and selling it to the EVE player base... and I believe this was more players talking and Dev's musing it.
RailTank QQ SAM-MIK 2	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:07:00 - [55] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation. Explain this a bit more. The economy is the creation and destruction of isk. Isk is clearly being created and destroyed, and CCP studies this stuff. Their economist had a presentation at last year's fanfest about the Dust economy. Getting the creation and destruction of isk into balance is the biggest stumbling block to get over before the Dust economy can begin to merge with Eve. If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany. They will never merge the two economies... The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some. The best they EVER talked about with EVE and DUST economies is the EVE side being able to build Warbarges and buy tanks and LAV's to drop in for DUST Mercenaries on campaigns.... And for DUST the best they ever talked about was the players controlling the planetary resources and selling it to the EVE player base... and I believe this was more players talking and Dev's musing it. Musing at EVE Vegas and EVE Down Under if i remember right. Most likely will get some bastardized from by the end of (next) year but im hoping fanfest gives us something (mainly to complain about) Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
Lv2spd2 Slow And Old 204	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:09:00 - [56] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Everyone else loses money running advanced suits. Why do you say this? I am not particularly skilled. I do not PC. I do not possess any BPs. I am never paid to ring or merc for anyone. I do not run endless games in free militia suits. I am not a beta vet. I am not supported financially by my corp or any other corp. I do not run isk scams or beg for isk. I run advanced or proto in pubs pretty much every game, and pretty much all my adv suits have at least 1 piece of proto gear on them. I am not broke (not super wealthy either) and I possess over 1000 full fits of my favorite proto logi build. So I could spend a good long time running pure proto is pubs if I wished. If I can do it, why can't others? And in answer to why I have so many of the proto fit. It's mostly because I can, and partially a hedge aagainst a possible price explosion whenever the player market finally does arrive.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1704	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:18:00 - [57] - Quote "The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some" I've heard before that there's actually more isk in the Dust economy than in Eve, which isn't entirely implausible. The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast. At fanfest people were pretty shocked to see the amount of isk we had created here. There's really no reason why they couldn't merge the economies. They've said they'd start out with a large tax for transferring isk from Eve to Dust, which would prevent the ability to flood the Dust economy and ruin it. Over time they would slowly lower this tax. What that means is that prices in Dust will go up across the board as will our income. That means that we may be paying as much for a dropsuit as a frigate, which while it seems silly will work.
Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 171	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:22:00 - [58] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Planetary Conquest. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Edit 2: It makes sense people. PC affects a small portion of the players, while BPO's are very very widely used. TTK is what now on a proto suit ? SO how much is it for a militia equivalent ? CCP did what with the USD they made off of BPO's? DUMB thread is dumb thread Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6653	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:22:00 - [59] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: "The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some" I've heard before that there's actually more isk in the Dust economy than in Eve, which isn't entirely implausible. The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast. At fanfest people were pretty shocked to see the amount of isk we had created here. There's really no reason why they couldn't merge the economies. They've said they'd start out with a large tax for transferring isk from Eve to Dust, which would prevent the ability to flood the Dust economy and ruin it. Over time they would slowly lower this tax. What that means is that prices in Dust will go up across the board as will our income. That means that we may be paying as much for a dropsuit as a frigate, which while it seems silly will work. There's no way in hell that DUST has more ISK than in EVE. Trillionaires are a common sight. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
RailTank QQ SAM-MIK 2	Posted - 2014.02.19 17:36:00 - [60] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Kristoff Atruin wrote: "The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some" I've heard before that there's actually more isk in the Dust economy than in Eve, which isn't entirely implausible. The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast. At fanfest people were pretty shocked to see the amount of isk we had created here. There's really no reason why they couldn't merge the economies. They've said they'd start out with a large tax for transferring isk from Eve to Dust, which would prevent the ability to flood the Dust economy and ruin it. Over time they would slowly lower this tax. What that means is that prices in Dust will go up across the board as will our income. That means that we may be paying as much for a dropsuit as a frigate, which while it seems silly will work. There's no way in hell that DUST has more ISK than in EVE. Trillionaires are a common sight. Individual wealth =\= economic motility. We create and destroy incredible amounts of Idk. Over a trillion in a few months was generated and subsequently destroyed. The DUST market turns itself over in a few days. Eve trades a trillion isk in a year, because battles are sparse, and true destruction events like BR-5 are anomalies. It's easier to generate and hold isk in EVE because of the calmer volatility. Now granted raw isk values for sure still favor EVE, But there's huge potential for DUST to catch it Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.



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