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Oxskull Duncarino
0uter.Heaven
439
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Posted - 2014.02.20 23:55:00 -
[91] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Planetary Conquest. Edit: The data comes from CCP, through CPM. Edit 2: It makes sense people. PC affects a small portion of the players, while BPO's are very very widely used. Right, I've scanned through the whole thread and I don't see any response that gives a rough breakdown of what percentage are starter suit BPOs, and what percentage is due to the Aurum bought BPOs. CCP would needs to be able to differentiate between them to actually have a statistic they can effectively use, rather than some blanket figure of more than 50%.
As well, are they comparing the gross or net profit of PC to ISK saved through BPOs. If ye told me that Aurum BPOs saved people that much I'd be very surprised, but combining the two is just lie a cheap parlor trick that looks great until you scratch the surface.
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Oxskull Duncarino
0uter.Heaven
439
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Posted - 2014.02.21 00:08:00 -
[92] - Quote
JP Acuna wrote:So... who is harmed by this? Why players are so concerned about BPOs? Our economy is standing still anyway, all ISK prices are fixed, all items in the market are infinite, we have no player market to even mention such "economy".
Corps that run PC and hold districts make lots of ISK, have huge wallets and can afford expensive fits all the time and still have millions to spare. BPOs don't make a wallet that big for players who don't fight PC battles or own a district(s). They still profit much less.
It's just statistical, it doesn't have an important effect on anything really. There's no economy to "break". Yes, it actually is an issue. At present it isn't an issue, except for potential loss of Aurum sales for CCP, but for a dust player market and then the integration into the EvE market to happen, issues with BPOs have to be resolved. |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2875
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Posted - 2014.02.21 01:23:00 -
[93] - Quote
The world of difference is that BPOs don't generate passive ISK as PC farming does.
A player has to get in match and play to earn the match reward. He is investing his time and is providing CCP with targets for their paying customers to shoot at. The low level of the gear means new players have a good chance of getting a fair fight.
PC farming is a passive ISK fountain that directly funds proto stomping gear that is more likely to drive off new players.
I'll take CCP's BPO concern seriously once they deal with the easy problem that is actually having a damaging effect on the game as it stands. |
Oxskull Duncarino
0uter.Heaven
442
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Posted - 2014.02.21 12:45:00 -
[94] - Quote
Skihids wrote:The world of difference is that BPOs don't generate passive ISK as PC farming does.
A player has to get in match and play to earn the match reward. He is investing his time and is providing CCP with targets for their paying customers to shoot at. The low level of the gear means new players have a good chance of getting a fair fight.
PC farming is a passive ISK fountain that directly funds proto stomping gear that is more likely to drive off new players.
I'll take CCP's BPO concern seriously once they deal with the easy problem that is actually having a damaging effect on the game as it stands. I'm with you on that. What really gets me with PC locking is that CCP knew this was a potential exploit from the beginning when FoxFour stated that they knew about it but were just going to wait and see, yet they didn't have a fix ready to go in case it went wrong, as it did, and after all this time still haven't put together a fix. As you said, fix PC and then have a look at BPOs. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3477
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Posted - 2014.02.21 13:36:00 -
[95] - Quote
Skihids wrote:The world of difference is that BPOs don't generate passive ISK as PC farming does.
A player has to get in match and play to earn the match reward. He is investing his time and is providing CCP with targets for their paying customers to shoot at. The low level of the gear means new players have a good chance of getting a fair fight.
PC farming is a passive ISK fountain that directly funds proto stomping gear that is more likely to drive off new players.
I'll take CCP's BPO concern seriously once they deal with the easy problem that is actually having a damaging effect on the game as it stands.
This is a great point. I've barely played since the TTK issues ramped up around 1.5/1.6 outside of some events. I can assure you, my BPOs didn't make me any passive income during that time period of not-playing (unless you're counting the AUR they returned for the vehicle BPOs they nixed).
BPOs save you money if you're: A) Playing B) Dying
If you're not dying, then it doesn't matter what your equipment cost is (hello Thales). If you're not playing, then your BPOs don't magic up profits for you. Even then, the relative value of the BPOs as far as "lost isk" will only ever be as high as your deaths.
People often to switch to Starter or BPO-fits when they KNOW they're going to die/die a lot. I think if a lot of the sold BPO fits didn't exist, we might just have people switching to starter fits when they know they'll die instead. Ergo, the sold BPO issue may be overblown or the data could be misleading in this instance.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1355
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Posted - 2014.02.21 13:59:00 -
[96] - Quote
I-¦d trade in my BPOs for a years worth of passive and active boosters.
Just sayin!
Drop it like its hat.
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Oxskull Duncarino
0uter.Heaven
443
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Posted - 2014.02.21 14:48:00 -
[97] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:I-¦d trade in my BPOs for a years worth of passive and active boosters.
Just sayin! I'd trade all mine in for new maps and game modes |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2879
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Posted - 2014.02.21 14:51:00 -
[98] - Quote
No doubt the numbers themselves are accurate, but you need to be careful about the interpretation. I'm sure their economists could explain it to them, but I'll give it a shot here:
The BPO "ISK loss' is just as real as the Recording Industry's estimate of losses due to illegal downloading. In this case it would be limited to the back catalog of "B" artists as the BPOs are all low level gear. A huge amount of the downloads would never have been purchased, and it's the same way with the equipment. A good deal of usage is just to fill a slot that would otherwise go empty if I had to pay for it. Or it goes on a suit that I'll use when I'm going up against a redline situation. Or it replaces a starter fit. Or it simply keeps me in the game instead of standing around in the back waiting for the match to end.
The PC ISK is equivalent to opening the till and handing out cash to their friends to buy the latest albums.
One loss is theoretical and the other real (at least as real as a virtual loss can be). |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1821
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Posted - 2014.02.21 15:17:00 -
[99] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:TheD1CK wrote:So BPO users made more ISK than PC abusers.... Yeah, this needs proof before i'll believe that
It makes sense when you think of how big the player pool is in PC... its tiny... I've been fighting with or against the same names for nearly a year... Nearly anyone that has played this game for a couple month period and had the option to buy a blueprint that fits their gameplay... Bought one and usually uses it in Pubs' to grind ISK. And this player pool is a majority of DUST. If you merely look at the max potential of ISK generated per day in PC.... And then think about the potential ISK income from Pub payouts running all day with 100% profit from BPO use. The amount of ISK generated from those BPO with absolutely no loss or cost.. is economy breaking.
Yeah, I don't see why this is a surprise to anyone. Virtually no one plays PC. Unfortunately, PC has always been an inconsequential part of Dust.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
2077
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Posted - 2014.02.21 16:23:00 -
[100] - Quote
Skihids wrote:No doubt the numbers themselves are accurate, but you need to be careful about the interpretation. I'm sure their economists could explain it to them, but I'll give it a shot here:
The BPO "ISK loss' is just as real as the Recording Industry's estimate of losses due to illegal downloading. In this case it would be limited to the back catalog of "B" artists as the BPOs are all low level gear. A huge amount of the downloads would never have been purchased, and it's the same way with the equipment. A good deal of usage is just to fill a slot that would otherwise go empty if I had to pay for it. Or it goes on a suit that I'll use when I'm going up against a redline situation. Or it replaces a starter fit. Or it simply keeps me in the game instead of standing around in the back waiting for the match to end.
The PC ISK is equivalent to opening the till and handing out cash to their friends to buy the latest albums.
One loss is theoretical and the other real (at least as real as a virtual loss can be).
Great analysis. +1.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Forum Warrior lv.2
Amarr victor!
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CRNWLLC
Screwy Rabbit ULC
52
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Posted - 2014.02.21 17:03:00 -
[101] - Quote
Skihids wrote:No doubt the numbers themselves are accurate, but you need to be careful about the interpretation. I'm sure their economists could explain it to them, but I'll give it a shot here:
The BPO "ISK loss' is just as real as the Recording Industry's estimate of losses due to illegal downloading. In this case it would be limited to the back catalog of "B" artists as the BPOs are all low level gear. A huge amount of the downloads would never have been purchased, and it's the same way with the equipment. A good deal of usage is just to fill a slot that would otherwise go empty if I had to pay for it. Or it goes on a suit that I'll use when I'm going up against a redline situation. Or it replaces a starter fit. Or it simply keeps me in the game instead of standing around in the back waiting for the match to end.
The PC ISK is equivalent to opening the till and handing out cash to their friends to buy the latest albums.
One loss is theoretical and the other real (at least as real as a virtual loss can be).
I think the PC analysis is spot-on, except I'd say the anti-BPO argument is even more ridiculous.
The recording industry analogy is a little faulty, since illegal downloads are, well, illegal, and BPOs were purchased with an RL cash-equivalent (AUR) on the Dust market. Really, the analogy is more like purchasing a track from a media distribution service, such as the iTunes store, etc., since you can purchase it and use it (ie, listen to it) without ever having to "restock" it. That's the deal, same as the Dust marketplace.
Except actually, that's not the entire scope of the situation. Since Apple and similar companies are not minting the money used to purchase these digital goods from their respective marketplaces--as is the case with CCP, ISK/AUR, and the Dust marketplace--the situation is even further removed from typical notions of an "economy". I suppose the strongest counterargument in this case would be purchases made with marketplace-specific giftcards, but even then, those giftcards are exchangeable between members of the communities to which they are sold. Dust players cannot exchange AUR or the fruits of their RL monetary investments in the game.
I think the strongest part of this analysis is the admission that BPOs will keep this player in the game on certain occasions. I totally relate to this, as does at least one other poster on this thread. I'd say that this is analogous to downloading some new music (legally or otherwise, not too important for this point) and discovering you actually really like it, which leads you to download more by the same/similar artist/s (ie, try a BPO, like it, train into those skills, buy adv+ or tactical, etc., versions of those items eventually). Basically, they're a good starting point, and there will always be times when you need to return to your roots!
Personally, since the cost of standard-level gear is so low, I have no problem forking over minimal SP and ISK to use standard variants of items for which I do not own BPOs (eg, nanohives), and which I have determined to be less important investments than support skills, etc.
Have you seen my baseball?
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pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES
1570
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Posted - 2014.02.21 17:13:00 -
[102] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Darken-Soul wrote:Cat Merc wrote:The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Plantary Conquest. I call bullshit CCP data. It ain't bullshit.
Give us the data or we shall have to cut off your tuna and catnip supplies.
Proud Gunlogi pilot and forge gunner since August 2012.
Why bother running you'll only die tired.
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
1644
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Posted - 2014.02.21 18:03:00 -
[103] - Quote
Oxskull Duncarino wrote:Skihids wrote:The world of difference is that BPOs don't generate passive ISK as PC farming does.
A player has to get in match and play to earn the match reward. He is investing his time and is providing CCP with targets for their paying customers to shoot at. The low level of the gear means new players have a good chance of getting a fair fight.
PC farming is a passive ISK fountain that directly funds proto stomping gear that is more likely to drive off new players.
I'll take CCP's BPO concern seriously once they deal with the easy problem that is actually having a damaging effect on the game as it stands. I'm with you on that. What really gets me with PC locking is that CCP knew this was a potential exploit from the beginning when FoxFour stated that they knew about it but were just going to wait and see, yet they didn't have a fix ready to go in case it went wrong, as it did, and after all this time still haven't put together a fix. As you said, fix PC and then have a look at BPOs. +1 and +1. Great analysis, gents.
I support SP rollover.
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Skihids
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2886
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Posted - 2014.02.21 19:47:00 -
[104] - Quote
What's more is that there is no meaningful economy and what there is is determined solely by CCP via the public match payouts.
In a real economy you have upkeep expenses. We don't pay rent, we don't worry about utilities. In a real economy you have choices about what you want to buy. Here we don't have any luxury goods. The only thing we can buy are supplies with which to fight. Why do we fight? Because it is our form of recreation.
There is no reason to fight other than the joy of combat. We can't spend our pay on anything other than the ability to fight, and we don't need to fight. We could stand in our quarters until the end of the universe.
Absent any luxury goods all our pay will go toward more equipment. If we save a few ISK with a BPO, that ISK will just get spent on higher tier gear. Why? Well, what else is there to do with it? And since we are just here for gladiatorial combat we want the best gear we can afford.
So rather than shrink the economy, BPOs actually have zero effect. Excluding a little bit of savings all of the public match payouts will be spent on gear. The more the NPCs pay out, the more expensive gear gets fielded. If the payouts shrink, then the cost of the gear goes down to match. Why? Well, we can't spend what we don't have, and why not spend it?
The problem comes in when payouts are made outside of the normal match system. PC farmers get a concentrated ISK injection that allow them to dramatically outspend anyone not farming. So rather than the general level of gear going up, only a small segment of the population's gear goes up. And it goes up all out of proportion, funding full time proto.
Instead of everyone playing with neat toys most of the players are frustrated when they meet the farmers in match. Despite any protestations to the contrary, I don't see where CCP is aware or concerned about the issue. |
Ku Shala
Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn
880
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Posted - 2014.02.21 19:51:00 -
[105] - Quote
so a maybe 20 k starter fit vs 30, 40? districts making 150 000 000 isk every 24 hours is the litterbox full or do I smell catsh!t?
-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä
The States Necromancer
Scan Attempt Prevented
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1826
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Posted - 2014.02.21 19:54:00 -
[106] - Quote
Skihids wrote:What's more is that there is no meaningful economy and what there is is determined solely by CCP via the public match payouts.
In a real economy you have upkeep expenses. We don't pay rent, we don't worry about utilities. In a real economy you have choices about what you want to buy. Here we don't have any luxury goods. The only thing we can buy are supplies with which to fight. Why do we fight? Because it is our form of recreation.
There is no reason to fight other than the joy of combat. We can't spend our pay on anything other than the ability to fight, and we don't need to fight. We could stand in our quarters until the end of the universe.
Absent any luxury goods all our pay will go toward more equipment. If we save a few ISK with a BPO, that ISK will just get spent on higher tier gear. Why? Well, what else is there to do with it? And since we are just here for gladiatorial combat we want the best gear we can afford.
So rather than shrink the economy, BPOs actually have zero effect. Excluding a little bit of savings all of the public match payouts will be spent on gear. The more the NPCs pay out, the more expensive gear gets fielded. If the payouts shrink, then the cost of the gear goes down to match. Why? Well, we can't spend what we don't have, and why not spend it?
The problem comes in when payouts are made outside of the normal match system. PC farmers get a concentrated ISK injection that allow them to dramatically outspend anyone not farming. So rather than the general level of gear going up, only a small segment of the population's gear goes up. And it goes up all out of proportion, funding full time proto.
Instead of everyone playing with neat toys most of the players are frustrated when they meet the farmers in match. Despite any protestations to the contrary, I don't see where CCP is aware or concerned about the issue.
QFT |
Rusty Shallows
1005
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Posted - 2014.02.21 22:25:00 -
[107] - Quote
It is hypocritical of CCP to have a problem with BPOs but none with consumable AUR. The first Burn Jita should have definitively told them real money has no place in virtual markets. If they truly believe there is a problem then both need to go.
Spectral Clone wrote:I-¦d trade in my BPOs for a years worth of passive and active boosters.
Just sayin! F-Yeah! Instead of the crappy useless AUR the last BPO removal should have had a Booster trade in option. CCP should offer one 30-Day Passive Omega and two 30-Day Active Omegas per BPO.
Skill Points > Boosters > BPOs > AUR > ISK
Here, have some candy and a Like. :-)
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