The people who believe that DUST doesn't have a tangible economy must also believe that sub-prime lending doesn't lead to world-wide economic recessions/depressions.

If anyone has been paying attention to what has been said in this thread, not only is Catmerc most likely speaking the truth, but we could be in more trouble than we thought because of the magical BPO problem.

There's not really a quick and easy solution...well, there is but there would be a riot and many persons would actually leave the game.

The people who believe that DUST doesn't have a tangible economy must also believe that sub-prime lending doesn't lead to world-wide economic recessions/depressions.

If anyone has been paying attention to what has been said in this thread, not only is Catmerc most likely speaking the truth, but we could be in more trouble than we thought because of the magical BPO problem.

There's not really a quick and easy solution...well, there is but there would be a riot and many persons would actually leave the game.

It's not that much of a problem. John Demonsbane proposed the most likely solution above: BPO manufacturing will still have a mineral input cost.

Imo the PC income is pretty obviously the biggest driver of ISK inflation in DUST.

Wrt the size of the DUST EVE economies, it's already been shown that DUST's economy is already giving EVE a run for it's money, and that's with our pathetically low player numbers.

Wrt to balancing the economies it will be possible. Prolly the most stable solution would be to balance around extraction of strategic resources common to both economies. There could still be clones, but clone manufacture would go from being magic to being a manufacturuing process that had material inputs. For this we want clones to become a commodity in EVE first, and in DUST as well - right now we're not paying for our clones in DUST pubs or FW - we prolly should be.

We'll have an integrated economy, and for my money before this time next year. But it'll be kind of crippled in terms of gameplay-generation for us in DUST if we don't have a robust contract system.

What do you mine in high sec in EVE? because the ISk generation in incursions in high security space alone dwarfs DUST by ridiculous amounts... We aren't even getting into WH's, DED's, 0.0 as a whole... Even high security missions..

Then we can get to the whole economy being a decade old... DUST gives EVE a run for their money?

The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Planetary Conquest.



Edit:
The data comes from CCP, through CPM.

Edit 2:
It makes sense people.
PC affects a small portion of the players, while BPO's are very very widely used.

Just some simple math to see if this statement is feasible:

1 Player running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings: = 2,000,000 Profit.

100 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings: = 200,000,000 Profit

1,000 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings = 2,000,000,000 Profit

5,000 Players running 10 matches a day with full BPO at 200,000 ISK per match earnings = 10,000,000,000 Profit

Seems legit.

What do you mine in high sec in EVE? because the ISk generation in incursions in high security space alone dwarfs DUST by ridiculous amounts... We aren't even getting into WH's, DED's, 0.0 as a whole... Even high security missions..

Then we can get to the whole economy being a decade old... DUST gives EVE a run for their money?

I don't think it's that disturbing at all. Most of the BPO users that piling up ISK are not players that will affect the battlefield one way or the other whether they are in BPOs or in Proto.

The problem with PC is that you are talking about a handful of players, the best players, that are pulling in ISK that they couldn't spend if they tried.

A guy that runs a 10.0 KDR isn't going to spend a billion ISK on suits.

One of them "might" impact AUR sales. I'll give you guess as to which.

Blueprints even in lore where it just spawns another suit with no materials or ISK cost will never make sense no matter how convenient the operation is to my personal ISK making aspirations.

5k deaths * Militia Assault Rifle @ 600 ISK = 3M just for the militia rifle.

... If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany.

...The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast.

One of them "might" impact AUR sales. I'll give you guess as to which.

Blueprints even in lore where it just spawns another suit with no materials or ISK cost will never make sense no matter how convenient the operation is to my personal ISK making aspirations.

5k deaths * Militia Assault Rifle @ 600 ISK = 3M just for the militia rifle.

... If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany.

...The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast.

What is a BPO???

rofljavascript:insertsmiley('','/Images/Emoticons/ccp_smile.png')

>"BPOs do not create ISK in the GÇ£economyGÇ¥

They don't create isk directly, but they stop isk from leaving through the sinks. That means the net effect is the addition of isk to the economy. This isn't exactly advanced math here, it's just addition and subtraction. Across all players who have and use BPOs regularly the impact should be stunningly obvious.

This saved ISK is either hoarded (ie, not effecting the economy) or spent on advanced+ gear (because why would the player spend ISK on lame gear that he has an infinite supply of? And besides, isnGÇÖt this what the CCP economists wantGÇöplayers spending ISK?). Without BPOs, such a player might spend some ISK on lame (and super cheap in any case) standard gear in order to run fits GÇ£at a profitGÇ¥, but in my experience, itGÇÖs easier to make a pretty penny running adv+.

What is a BPO???

You are right, but they can corner the player market when it does open. How is it so hard to see this coming? The deepest pockets will OWN the market. The deepest pockets are getting deeper from a passive isk farm in the hands of >300 players. If you live in America, ever heard of "the 1%"?

As a lot of the players have said, a lot of people have BPO and thus the community feels the effect of BPO's equally. Until CCP releases ACTUAL DATA, all of this is speculation. There are 3 types of lies in this world: Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Present the facts and let us, the players, sift through the bullshit.

If it weren't for all the BPO gear I've had since the very first day I started playing DUST, I don't think I would have kept playing this game. I played only with militia suits for the first time for several hours one day last week and did a heck of a lot of dying. How depressing! Although I did manage a few kills, I can only imagine what it's like for first-time players. Most of the time it's too friggin' easy to kill them. But I do farm a lot of ISK with those BPO suits/weapons so I can occasionally wear Proto Gear in Corp matches. And I don't consider laying down Drop Uplinks and Nanohives to be all spam. That sounds something like what a trolling InvinciTankStomper might say. They'll never be happy unless they can just camp a slaughter-location and not have to search around for their meat. In most games, I'm able to open up other locations for spawning for the losing side. The worst thing that can happen to you is to get trapped.

Are they thinking of nerffing BPO gear too? Is that why they've mentioned it at the same time they were talking about Planetary Conquest? I'm not sure I'm all that comfortable with all the reneging that CCP does (eg: the nerffing of gear that I've spent months developing). But, at this point it wouldn't suprise me.

I think the BPO problem is solved by returning them to their former glory, possibly making more (racial variants?) of them, available to all, non-tradable, and never better than standard (except for the top-tier recruiting reward, because if you can pull that off, you deserve something extra special, you charismatic b@stard, you). This won't negatively impact the "economy" because there's pressure from the player base to run adv+ level gear (ie, other players are doing it and if they're as good as or better than you, they're likely to come out on top if they have better equipment too).

Glad it was good for a laugh, chief, but it might be useful for you to frame the statement with its follow-up explanation. I've taken the liberty here:



What you don't seem to understand is that hoarded ISK does not create ISK in the "economy" since it is hoarded--ie, it's out of circulation. Moreover, what you seem insistent on ignoring, is that there is no actual money circulation, which precludes any serious discussion of an "economy". Until ISK and items move between players, there's no worry of inflation or deflation or any of that other pseudo-intellectual crap. Every player currently (and in the foreseeable future) has the ability to make (in theory) tens of millions of ISK a week running starter fits, so this will continue to be a non-issue. Making a lot of ISK is also accomplished by not dying a lot, which I'll come back to again in a moment.

You mention that, cumulatively, the use of BPOs should be "stunningly obvious". And yet, it's not. The standard level gear that it's based on costs the same as it always has. This is true for all items in the marketplace--you don't see floating prices because there is no economy.

Now consider a proto-level player (SP invested into at least one proto suit and one proto-level weapon with max support skills) that doesn't die a lot and exclusively runs adv+. Not dying a lot, this player doesn't spend much ISK, period. They've got a boatload in their wallet, and they replace a few pieces of shiney on occasion, but by-and-large, they're hoarding cash. Does this player's lack of deaths (and associated lack of ISK spending/"leaving through the sinks") hurt the "economy"? You'd think (by extension of the argument that "free" gear, which doesn't need replacing and thereby also avoids ISK spending) this would be the case, and yet it somehow rings hollow. Care to enlighten me here?

You're right, though--it's not advanced math. It's not math at all. It has to do with logic and semantics.

The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Planetary Conquest.



Edit:
The data comes from CCP, through CPM.

Edit 2:
It makes sense people.
PC affects a small portion of the players, while BPO's are very very widely used.

You are right, but they can corner the player market when it does open. How is it so hard to see this coming? The deepest pockets will OWN the market. The deepest pockets are getting deeper from a passive isk farm in the hands of >300 players. If you live in America, ever heard of "the 1%"?

Dear everyone having a hard time understanding why the current BPOs set up is bad for the economy (as well as pc isk factories) please pull out your high school econ books and read the sections on supply and demand, scarcity of resources and and how large capital reserves affect those things.

And then realize that if BPOs weren't a cluster frogking mess, the would still be sold with reckless abandon because CCP makes good money off selling them.

And also trust that the doctoral, professional economists hired by CCP to observe and tinker with these economies knows perhaps far more than we do.


If you still have problems understanding the complexity of this issue after all of this, be sure to have a CPA do your taxes, for your own good