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RailTank QQ
SAM-MIK
1
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Posted - 2014.02.19 16:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
CYRAX SERVIUS wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Still no source
Its BS It's a skype conversation. It has me, Arkena Wyrnspire, Mobius Wyvern, Aisha Ctarl, Hans Jagerblitzen, jenza aranda, KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf etc'. Big whoop no source Anyways BPO dont ruin any economy since we dont have one and all BPOs are basic anyways Exactly!
The people who believe that DUST doesn't have a tangible economy must also believe that sub-prime lending doesn't lead to world-wide economic recessions/depressions.
If anyone has been paying attention to what has been said in this thread, not only is Catmerc most likely speaking the truth, but we could be in more trouble than we thought because of the magical BPO problem.
There's not really a quick and easy solution...well, there is but there would be a riot and many persons would actually leave the game.
Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
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RailTank QQ
SAM-MIK
2
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Posted - 2014.02.19 17:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Darken-Soul wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:Everyone saying "there is no economy" is missing the point. The economy is there, we just can't influence it yet. When the influx of isk is completely out of whack with the outflows then that creates a big problem when trying to put the economy in our hands. It makes it like your average theme park mmo where there's massive inflation. Explain this a bit more. The economy is the creation and destruction of isk. Isk is clearly being created and destroyed, and CCP studies this stuff. Their economist had a presentation at last year's fanfest about the Dust economy. Getting the creation and destruction of isk into balance is the biggest stumbling block to get over before the Dust economy can begin to merge with Eve. If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany. They will never merge the two economies... The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some. The best they EVER talked about with EVE and DUST economies is the EVE side being able to build Warbarges and buy tanks and LAV's to drop in for DUST Mercenaries on campaigns.... And for DUST the best they ever talked about was the players controlling the planetary resources and selling it to the EVE player base... and I believe this was more players talking and Dev's musing it.
Musing at EVE Vegas and EVE Down Under if i remember right. Most likely will get some bastardized from by the end of (next) year but im hoping fanfest gives us something (mainly to complain about)
Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
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RailTank QQ
SAM-MIK
2
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Posted - 2014.02.19 17:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:"The raw amounts of ISK floating around EVE and generated at such high quantities would offset so much point in DUST it would ruin the game for some"
I've heard before that there's actually more isk in the Dust economy than in Eve, which isn't entirely implausible. The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast. At fanfest people were pretty shocked to see the amount of isk we had created here.
There's really no reason why they couldn't merge the economies. They've said they'd start out with a large tax for transferring isk from Eve to Dust, which would prevent the ability to flood the Dust economy and ruin it. Over time they would slowly lower this tax. What that means is that prices in Dust will go up across the board as will our income. That means that we may be paying as much for a dropsuit as a frigate, which while it seems silly will work. There's no way in hell that DUST has more ISK than in EVE. Trillionaires are a common sight.
Individual wealth =\= economic motility.
We create and destroy incredible amounts of Idk. Over a trillion in a few months was generated and subsequently destroyed. The DUST market turns itself over in a few days.
Eve trades a trillion isk in a year, because battles are sparse, and true destruction events like BR-5 are anomalies. It's easier to generate and hold isk in EVE because of the calmer volatility.
Now granted raw isk values for sure still favor EVE, But there's huge potential for DUST to catch it
Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
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RailTank QQ
SAM-MIK
3
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Posted - 2014.02.19 18:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Vrain Matari wrote: It's not that much of a problem. John Demonsbane proposed the most likely solution above: BPO manufacturing will still have a mineral input cost.
Imo the PC income is pretty obviously the biggest driver of ISK inflation in DUST.
Wrt the size of the DUST EVE economies, it's already been shown that DUST's economy is already giving EVE a run for it's money, and that's with our pathetically low player numbers.
Wrt to balancing the economies it will be possible. Prolly the most stable solution would be to balance around extraction of strategic resources common to both economies. There could still be clones, but clone manufacture would go from being magic to being a manufacturuing process that had material inputs. For this we want clones to become a commodity in EVE first, and in DUST as well - right now we're not paying for our clones in DUST pubs or FW - we prolly should be.
We'll have an integrated economy, and for my money before this time next year. But it'll be kind of crippled in terms of gameplay-generation for us in DUST if we don't have a robust contract system.
What do you mine in high sec in EVE? because the ISk generation in incursions in high security space alone dwarfs DUST by ridiculous amounts... We aren't even getting into WH's, DED's, 0.0 as a whole... Even high security missions.. Then we can get to the whole economy being a decade old... DUST gives EVE a run for their money?
In terms of market turn over and **** destroyed they are very similar.
Raw Isk generation EVE still wins, but the more killing blah blah DUST does, the greater potential it has to catch it. Will it? Someday. Near future? Probably not.
In relation to an easy fix. Manufacturing is the best fix, But it is by no means quick ot easy. New PVE stuff, game modes, suits, mods, equipment, veHicles, game infrastructure. Whole bunch of crap is needed to make it work.
The easy solution is pulling BPOs. Womp womp.
I fully want and support industry, But who the hell knows what hilmar wants.
Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
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RailTank QQ
SAM-MIK
4
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Posted - 2014.02.19 19:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Boy, do I have a lot say about this.
Zeylon Rho wrote:Cat Merc wrote:The amount of ISK saved by BPO's is more than what is generated by Plantary Conquest. One of them "might" impact AUR sales. I'll give you guess as to which.
Uh, both? Since holding districts in PC generates ISK, which is spent on non-AUR items, IGÇÖm pretty sure it also impacts AUR sales.
SeriouslyGÇöanyone know the most expensive standard item on the market with a BPO equivalent? Almost certainly doesnGÇÖt cost more than about 5k, so youGÇÖve have to burn through 100s of them before youGÇÖd be getting into a 500k+ GÇ£replacementGÇ¥ cost. Just doesnGÇÖt make senseGÇöthe only people who die this much are new/bad players, and they need all the help they can get.
Bethhy wrote:Blueprints even in lore where it just spawns another suit with no materials or ISK cost will never make sense no matter how convenient the operation is to my personal ISK making aspirations.
Sure they make senseGÇöthe same way my Genolution GÇÿAuroralGÇÖ AU-79 implant (that grants me a golden pod, and which is automatically re-implanted in each new clone, which make it completely unlike any other implant in EVE) makes sense. It makes sense because itGÇÖs a reflection of my toonGÇÖs clout with the NPC corps of New Eden. That is, I payed CCP RL monies and this is my reward.
The Robot Devil wrote:5k deaths * Militia Assault Rifle @ 600 ISK = 3M just for the militia rifle.
This is an absurd hypothetical. Not even the most banal player in Dust would die 5000 times only using militia gear. IGÇÖve been playing for almost a year and donGÇÖt even have 5000 deaths (and I do regularly)! The subject of this hypothetical deserves to pay 3m ISK for his 5000 militia AR deaths.
Kristoff Atruin wrote:... If the economy is creating far more isk than it is destroying and players get to start deciding the price of things, prices will skyrocket like we're in Weimar Germany.
...The Eve economy is well balanced and has very controlled inflation. Most economic activity is moving isk around, not generating it out of thin air. Meanwhile in Dust the isk faucet has been running at full blast.
BPOs do not create ISK in the GÇ£economyGÇ¥. In fact, BPOs donGÇÖt effect the GÇ£economyGÇ¥ at all, since a player isnGÇÖt spending ISK on those standard items for which he has BPO equivalents. This saved ISK is either hoarded (ie, not effecting the economy) or spent on advanced+ gear (because why would the player spend ISK on lame gear that he has an infinite supply of? And besides, isnGÇÖt this what the CCP economists wantGÇöplayers spending ISK?). Without BPOs, such a player might spend some ISK on lame (and super cheap in any case) standard gear in order to run fits GÇ£at a profitGÇ¥, but in my experience, itGÇÖs easier to make a pretty penny running adv+.
Also, Weimar GermanyGÇÖs problem was the same as the United StateGÇÖs today: deficit spending of fiat money. What do you think will happen when you spend more money than you magically pull out of your ass?
I guess thatGÇÖs why you never see pirate alts running incursionsGǪ
Can't tell if trolling or economically challenged.
Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
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RailTank QQ
SAM-MIK
13
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Posted - 2014.02.20 19:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Dear everyone having a hard time understanding why the current BPOs set up is bad for the economy (as well as pc isk factories) please pull out your high school econ books and read the sections on supply and demand, scarcity of resources and and how large capital reserves affect those things.
And then realize that if BPOs weren't a cluster frogking mess, the would still be sold with reckless abandon because CCP makes good money off selling them.
And also trust that the doctoral, professional economists hired by CCP to observe and tinker with these economies knows perhaps far more than we do.
If you still have problems understanding the complexity of this issue after all of this, be sure to have a CPA do your taxes, for your own good
Soldner's in exile after calling for a riot and getting BANANA'ed.
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