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Why a low average TTK bad.

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Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10174	Posted - 2013.11.12 18:16:00 - [91] - Quote Sgt Buttscratch wrote: Atiim wrote: Sgt Buttscratch wrote: I started reading then remember IWS and CPM are an absolute joke and CCP need to stop all communication with them. Please explain how. Don't just insult people out of spite and/or jealousy. After the thread named something like "CCP Allows glitchers to win tournament", IWS decided he'd drop some opinion which: Justified the use of glitches and called you **** if you were on the wrong end of the glitch. As he is a face of CPM combined the opinion I got is that IWS and CPM are jokes. No possible way of being jealous of IWS How about you missing the point of my replies in that thread? Has plenty to do with expectation settings. I'll give you a cookie if you can tell me the most commonly used exploit/glitch during the squad cup. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10175	Posted - 2013.11.12 18:57:00 - [92] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: ReGnYuM wrote: Great Thread BTW IWS As a side note: Did you know that in BF4 and BF3 that all ARs or weapon classes have the same Damage and Range, yet an M416 will easily out gun an AEK in a distanced battle. I personally do not think ARs should be balance based on optimal range, but more on stability, recoil, and RoF. BTW when are you gonna start playing PC I sure every team needs OMNI specialist to ring for them This would be rather interesting even if, at minimum, Stability, recoil and RoF are used more as balancing sticks. This is a possible option as well. Been asking nicely for the scrambler to get a sharpshooter skill. Or like in the smg's case maybe its not the damage that needs nerfing but dispersion to make it slightly not as useful in much longer ranges. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
Himiko Kuronaga The Generals EoN. 2291	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:48:00 - [93] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: TL;DR version please. No, you don't get one. If you have the audacity to post, learn how to read. God damned cretins. Yes, such audacity to want something concise. Do you think of yourself as some astute intellectual because you can tolerate needlessly long forum posts so long that it needs to be split in 2? I need to read 15+ paragraphs to get someone's opinion on the TTK of a video game? EDIT: From the TL;DR posted by Krom below, it wasn't even a new idea either (though I support it). If you are incapable of reading, you are incapable of delivering an educated opinion. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence is not intimidated by a couple posts with actual content in them. Therefore it is best you remain silent where possible. This will allow the flow of good ideas and help stem the flow of ignorant ones.
Godin Thekiller Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 1511	Posted - 2013.11.12 22:57:00 - [94] - Quote Okay, I gotta be honest, you would've made that shorter,as people (especially me, I shouldn't even be on my tablet right now; I'm chilling with a girl ) don't really have the time to read all of that. Anyways, I skimmed through it, and it seems as though you found a area in which you can talk about without sounding like a ******* idiot. I will elaborate in about a hour or so (unless everything goes right 'winks twice at screen, then does two nudging motions'). 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10176	Posted - 2013.11.12 23:35:00 - [95] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: TL;DR version please. No, you don't get one. If you have the audacity to post, learn how to read. God damned cretins. Yes, such audacity to want something concise. Do you think of yourself as some astute intellectual because you can tolerate needlessly long forum posts so long that it needs to be split in 2? I need to read 15+ paragraphs to get someone's opinion on the TTK of a video game? EDIT: From the TL;DR posted by Krom below, it wasn't even a new idea either (though I support it). If you are incapable of reading, you are incapable of delivering an educated opinion. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence is not intimidated by a couple posts with actual content in them. Therefore it is best you remain silent where possible. This will allow the flow of good ideas and help stem the flow of ignorant ones. Now now now no need for hostilities on either side, I'll be honest it was a bit long winded but a bit necessary for the uninitiated or those not part of the conversation but clearly drew the wrong audience as those who knows the ins and outs had chimed in. On the other hand the original post was about... 8 posts long and did some boiling of course as most of it was not necessary. You forget I am capable of very easily doing a 40 page post for an extensive idea, I have done it before in the past and repeat performance is a hop skip and jump away. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
CharCharOdell 1531	Posted - 2013.11.13 01:59:00 - [96] - Quote good post. +1 Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 893	Posted - 2013.11.13 02:41:00 - [97] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Atiim wrote: See this is what happens when CCP does too good of a job fixing stuff they broke sniper rifle hit detection... sniping in dust is the most ** tarded thing..and not even a little bit realistic i agree with what i saw in your post wolf saber as i scanned it (for reals that might as well be a prologue to ur book) bullet dispersion needs to be raised on certain weapons and the whole bullets going around walls and through them is complete bullshit and needs to be fixed one thing that did bother me sniping in dust is not hard it is easy and ****** not even a little bit realistic bullet travel in dust is laughable to be honest dust is going to end up just like halo 2 a bunch of assholes running around sniping each other and that's it Try getting a headshot, finding an enemy sniper (that knows what their doing), removing the heavies with FGs of a roof, or shooting a scout that's sprinting. Then tell me that sniping has no skill There are a lot of $#!t snipers out there, but to be a good one you need skill. And like PLCs, sniping is one of the few roles in this game that actually require skill and training. When has a bullet ever gone through a wall? NEVER. Don't be upset because the sniper is actually smart enough to move into a spot where he can snipe you regardless of cover. It's funny when people hug a wall thinking that their safe; just to meet a prof IV and 3 complex damage modded Kaalokiota to their head.... There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry You'll still be useful in my eyes
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 330	Posted - 2013.11.13 02:58:00 - [98] - Quote I agree with Iron_Wolf_Saber but I'm not too sure that the semi-automatic SCR needs a damage reduction. The TTK for charged shots has the illusion of an instant kill. It takes 2 seconds to charge the shot and is normally followed up by a few shots to finish off the target. Charged shots should be powerful. Spaming shots is risky because its very easy to over heat your rifle using this method. So if you fail to down your target and you over heat, your pretty much dead. Also keep in mind that the scrambler rifle is one of the few weapons that did not receive the blanket 10% damage buff. Blatant Dust_514 recruiting in the silliest of places. :P
Rowdy Railgunner Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 151	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:36:00 - [99] - Quote How many times do I have to say this before people realize it. THERE WAS NEVER A 10% BUFF, IT WAS ALREADY ON WEAPONS THROUGH SKILLS. ALL CCP DID WAS REMOVE IT FROM THE SKILL AND PUT IT DIRECTLY ON THE WEAPONS. NET CHANGE IN DAMAGE ZERO. Actually, there was a nerf at the time on a few weapons as they were too damaging. You people need to get your facts straight. You are all basing your opinions on false premise. Bunch of ignoramuses around here.
shady merc RisingSuns Public Disorder. 26	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:57:00 - [100] - Quote Rowdy Railgunner wrote: How many times do I have to say this before people realize it. THERE WAS NEVER A 10% BUFF, IT WAS ALREADY ON WEAPONS THROUGH SKILLS. ALL CCP DID WAS REMOVE IT FROM THE SKILL AND PUT IT DIRECTLY ON THE WEAPONS. NET CHANGE IN DAMAGE ZERO. Actually, there was a nerf at the time on a few weapons as they were too damaging. You people need to get your facts straight. You are all basing your opinions on false premise. Bunch of ignoramuses around here. Actually when they released uprising the weapon skill did not give 10% that you are correct on . Then 4 days latter they gave a blanket buff to weapons of 10%. So yes the same 10% moved from a skill to the weapon, but it was mostly added back to combat then current TTK issues. dicussion for 10% damage hotfix In the next hot-fix weapons will all get a 10% damage increase to compensate for the removal of the Weaponry skill bonus. GÇó HMG damage buffed to 18 HP (including aforementioned 10% increase) and given a 5% dispersion buff. GÇó In the near future, we will address range issues by removing the hard stop that currently takes place at maximum weapon range. In Chromosome, the Weaponry skill gave an across the board 2% damage bonus to handheld weapons per level. Given the low SP cost of the skill (and the fact that itGÇÖs a pre-req for every weapon in the game) the majority of players would just skill straight to level 5 making the skill pretty pointless. So, in Uprising we removed the skill bonus. The side effect of this, of course, is that time-to-kill has increased. This, combined with some of the control issues weGÇÖve been seeing, has led to combat feeling worse than it did in Chromosome. We will address this with a hot-fix that gives an across the board 10% increase to all handheld weapon damage to put DPS back to where it was. Additionally, weGÇÖve increased HMG damage and reduced the dispersion penalty when moving by 5% to address issues with the weapon.

Mortedeamor WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 712	Posted - 2013.11.13 12:22:00 - [101] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Mortedeamor wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Atiim wrote: See this is what happens when CCP does too good of a job fixing stuff they broke sniper rifle hit detection... sniping in dust is the most ** tarded thing..and not even a little bit realistic i agree with what i saw in your post wolf saber as i scanned it (for reals that might as well be a prologue to ur book) bullet dispersion needs to be raised on certain weapons and the whole bullets going around walls and through them is complete bullshit and needs to be fixed one thing that did bother me sniping in dust is not hard it is easy and ****** not even a little bit realistic bullet travel in dust is laughable to be honest dust is going to end up just like halo 2 a bunch of assholes running around sniping eachother and thats it no atmosphere or gravity on planets and even in real a 400m kill with a sniper is ideal with very very little bullet drop and you have to think about it that the snipers we are using are thousands of years into the future. doesnt matter the fact of the matter is sniping is the easiest in dust over all games ..and unlike mos games when u die in dust it matters..this game is destined to be a snipe fest if ccp doesnt apply skill to the task
Arc-08 Knights Of Ender Public Disorder. 125	Posted - 2013.11.13 12:54:00 - [102] - Quote why did you not mention nerfing aim assist? Advanced Recon Commando's (A.R.C's) --- Yeah, you don't want to mess with us.
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 592	Posted - 2013.11.13 14:06:00 - [103] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: why did you not mention nerfing aim assist? Because that's a terrible idea
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 449	Posted - 2013.11.13 15:46:00 - [104] - Quote IceShifter Childhaspawn wrote: Judging by the number of trolls your thread got hit with, I'd say you hit it on the money. Kill it with fire and move on. Idioms aside. Yes! I am glad to here that someone is taking this seriously. We have a problem retaining new players in the game and TTK is a big part of it. Most of us have the perspective to look back into beta and see how far we have come, but the guy who just downloaded DUST will log on -get blown to hell and quit. TTK is no minor thing, It is a major factor in new player retention -or as I like to call it- FUN. Please ignore those who are defending their KDR to make up for a small MEMBER-ship. So you think a new player wants to take more time trying to take down an enemy who may have better damage mods and more shield/armor than them? Is that the way to go? I remember beta too, and trying to kill proto suits wasnt nice when you had the drop on people and it made no difference. On the issue - instead of throwing out damage on weapons, how about the obvious, fixing them and turning down the aim assist. The AR's need proper kick so it isnt a water hose and needs real dispersion so you are forced to fire in controlled bursts unless you are close enough to just unload. The AScR definitely needs to overheat somewhere in that first clip. We should also get rid of sharpshooter on all weapons that have it.
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 449	Posted - 2013.11.13 15:48:00 - [105] - Quote Dexter307 wrote: Arc-08 wrote: why did you not mention nerfing aim assist? Because that's a terrible idea Why? If it is because of kbm users - then yeah understand that but truth is, CCP should probably drop their support.
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 592	Posted - 2013.11.13 15:51:00 - [106] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Dexter307 wrote: Arc-08 wrote: why did you not mention nerfing aim assist? Because that's a terrible idea Why? If it is because of kbm users - then yeah understand that but truth is, CCP should probably drop their support. Because before aim assist was fixed in 1.4 (or was it 1.5?) most people complained that dust had bad aiming.
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 449	Posted - 2013.11.13 16:00:00 - [107] - Quote Dexter307 wrote: Daxxis KANNAH wrote: Dexter307 wrote: Arc-08 wrote: why did you not mention nerfing aim assist? Because that's a terrible idea Why? If it is because of kbm users - then yeah understand that but truth is, CCP should probably drop their support. Because before aim assist was fixed in 1.4 (or was it 1.5?) most people complained that dust had bad aiming. Who was complaining though? The kbm users or the ds3 ones? I (ds3) never had an issue aiming and now its just general direction and pull the trigger. ADS is when you are more likely to miss If possible I would try to tone it down a bit on the auto weapons.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 2174	Posted - 2013.11.13 16:50:00 - [108] - Quote +1 ... aiming is so improved you could make up for the disadvantages of a weapon's dispersion ... +1 ... in game weapon theory you have Short, Medium, and Long range weapons ... +1 ... shooting a guy with a difficult to aim weapon 10 times and he still does not drop is rather annoying ... +1 ... as for why short range weapons get a high TTK is for the other reason, number of engagements ... +1 ... getting into knifes edge is not as common as one thinks. Especially for a game that emphasizes sensors... +1 ... getting into effective range of the short ranged weapon is in itself should be a reward ... +1 ... short range weapons however are typically not much more powerful than the medium ranged weapons ... +1 ... our problem weapon is the medium range weapon ... +1 ... in a normalized game your medium range weapons would have some of the longest time to kills ... +1 ... in Dust 514 ... medium range weapon is highest in regards of TTK ... +1 ... that people drop far faster to a plasma rifle than they do to laser rifles or a sniper rifle .. +1 ... it disenfranchises long range and short range (especially short range) play ... +1 ... medium range weapons are suitable for all engagement opportunities and most scenarios ... +1 ... a selection of guns that just 'role stomps' over the other guns making the other guns inferior ... +1 ... creates an air of anti-diversity and in the long run destroys tall order playing and interactivity with the game ... +1 ... we do not see some of our interesting fits anymore ... +1 ... fights are also mostly becoming much less fun for both shooter and the guy getting shot ... +1 ... shooter loses out because of the lack of challenge in his targets, point click dead, no need to track ... +1 ... the victims lose out because they cannot be rewarded for good positioning or reflexes ... +1 ... having extremely short time to kill heavily devalues a player's fitting skills ... +1 ... return the game to being engaging for all ranged playstyles ... +1 ... reward smart behaviors or good skills with victories while retaining punishment for being stupid ... +1 ... if HD is allowing shots to hit through walls ... it does not need another nerf it actually needs a buff ... +1 ... nerfing the detection is a step backwards in making the game un-fun for those who do pride on their precision ... +1 ... increase dispersion for the problem weapons ... +1 ... make the rifles not as sniper sharp giving some long range players some breathing room ... +1 ... some weapons may lose their identify if (fire-rate) altered too much ... +1 ... (prevent) 'bullet weavers' ... +1 ... (increasing) suit HPs ... will continue to disenfranchise and hurt the short range and long range game styles ... +1 ... the best solution in combination of adjustments to weapon performance ... +1 ... direct damage nerf to overall output of the problem weapons ... +1 ... (damage) needs to be rolled back on select weapons that are seemingly out of the 'curve' (SMGs, ARs, ScRs) ... +1 ... increase the medium range TTK by a large fold to about another second or so ... +1 ... with that do know the CPM is unanimous ... working closely with CCP on a favorable solution ... +1 ... making shields and armor on targets matter ... +1 ... enabling weapon selection against targets ... +1 ... Increase battlefield diversity ... +1 ... empowering intelligence choices and game-play excellence ... +1 ... accommodating the need for Prototype weapons again, current TTK nullifies the need for them ... Sum: +39 Best ... post ... ever. Kudos to IWS and CPM for addressing the issue of weapon diversity and combat balance. Best of luck in your continued efforts in working toward prompt and favorable solution.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1779	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:14:00 - [109] - Quote My paper games on weapon damage application Guys...I think MOST of you are being WAY TOO generic about your criticism of TTK. I'm not saying it is ideal atm, just that this conversation is hot air until we get specific. --I don't think proper consideration has been given to the EXTREME subjectivity of TTK. --(Damage application) If a guy is charging his forge gun for 2 seconds and misses his first shot and hits on the second, it feels instant for the target, but isn't for the shooter. --(Skill) If a shooter has an AScR and lands 4 rounds to the body and 1 to the head and you die instantly, it feels fast, but his shot is just good. --(Damage application) If a short ranged weapon user had to move to close the distance on you because he knew it would be crap outside 35m, then at what point do you count as 'kill time'? Do you start counting when he started to move to close the gap? --(Damage coordination) If you die to a mass driver round after somebody else's flux grenade, at what point does the TTK timer start? IMO, it's as soon as the guy who threw the grenade started to cook it. A few points I think need to be made here: 1) TTK is fundamentally subjective for the person dieing. 2) The "TTK experience" is different for the shooter and target. 3) TTK SHOULD NOT be the same for the skilled and the unskilled player alike. 4) TTK cannot be balanced based on DPS and eHP alone. 5) TTK must consider the time it takes to apply DPS, not just the time you are doing damage. 6) TTK will feel short for high alpha weapons. The longer the TTK, the more players will gravitate for the alpha weapons (FG/core locus grenades, shotgun, charged weapons)
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10211	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:30:00 - [110] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: why did you not mention nerfing aim assist? Different monster that needs its own type of quelling one of which is consistency between clients. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked

xp3ll3d dust The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 99	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:23:00 - [111] - Quote I'm against nerfing aim assist. You don't want people to go back raging about controller issues, it is at a nice balance right nowl Just a reduction in weapon damage across the board.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10216	Posted - 2013.11.13 22:25:00 - [112] - Quote xp3ll3d dust wrote: I'm against nerfing aim assist. You don't want people to go back raging about controller issues, it is at a nice balance right nowl Just a reduction in weapon damage across the board. I don't think the proper wording or need for aim assist is meeting but fine tuning. We need it good enough that it would be barely notable.GÖÆ CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
commando biffle Shadow Company HQ 10	Posted - 2013.11.13 22:26:00 - [113] - Quote trllololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol
Ghost Kaisar R 0 N 1 N 828	Posted - 2013.11.14 00:26:00 - [114] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: His only post I have ever agreed with Good to see we agree about something for once "All war is deception." "He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious" -Sun Tzu
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10221	Posted - 2013.11.14 06:32:00 - [115] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: His only post I have ever agreed with Good to see we agree about something for once I am a pretty level headed guy at most times just I can't make everyone happy all the time, there are as you might note in this thread people who disagree with the short ttk being an issue. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
Ghost Kaisar R 0 N 1 N 845	Posted - 2013.11.15 01:29:00 - [116] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: His only post I have ever agreed with Good to see we agree about something for once I am a pretty level headed guy at most times just I can't make everyone happy all the time, there are as you might note in this thread people who disagree with the short ttk being an issue. I think it's a huge issue. With TTK being so low, using weapons that are effective vs. Shields/Armor have such little effect, that the bonus is negligible. I did the math on using scramblers vs projectile weapons a while ago, and using an advantageous weapon with equal DPS only gained a 0.1 second decrease in TTK, which was about 66 pts of damage. Thats missing 2 shots on a target, and you lose the advantage. People will go with weapons that have a better applicable DPS over a weapon that is advantageous against the enemies main tank. This is why there is so much brick tanking going on. The type of armor doesn't matter anymore. It's the eHP that matters. My 0.2 ISK. "All war is deception." "He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious" -Sun Tzu
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 1736	Posted - 2013.11.15 07:57:00 - [117] - Quote Just wanted to throw in my two isk worth because Im concerned that the smg is being lumped in with the op rifles discussion. You know, i actually think the smg is fine. Reason being that you have to get in very close range with it to get high dps. The fact that you have to get within half the optimum range of rifles to even reach your effective range means that you've already done a fantastic job of getting in close and deserve that high damage potential. It needs no more a nerf than any other cqc weapon like the shotgun or novas. It's definitely nowhere near as much a problem as the rifles with their long range and high dps. Dust2Dust - Funeral arrangements for all of New Eden. Join our public channel D2D. to chat and squad with us.
Cosgar ParagonX 7787	Posted - 2013.11.15 08:05:00 - [118] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: His only post I have ever agreed with Good to see we agree about something for once I am a pretty level headed guy at most times just I can't make everyone happy all the time, there are as you might note in this thread people who disagree with the short ttk being an issue. Let's cut to the chase. Is CCP looking at TTK, or should I just take another extended break until things get sorted out? I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 503	Posted - 2013.11.15 08:11:00 - [119] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: His only post I have ever agreed with Good to see we agree about something for once I am a pretty level headed guy at most times just I can't make everyone happy all the time, there are as you might note in this thread people who disagree with the short ttk being an issue. Let's cut to the chase. Is CCP looking at TTK, or should I just take another extended break until things get sorted out? I want an answer to this too. When can we get a indication if CCP will do something about this or not? Its a really bad time to completely change a basic game mechanic and ruining the game. KDR > ALL ME > KDR ME > ALL
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10260	Posted - 2013.11.15 08:13:00 - [120] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: His only post I have ever agreed with Good to see we agree about something for once I am a pretty level headed guy at most times just I can't make everyone happy all the time, there are as you might note in this thread people who disagree with the short ttk being an issue. Let's cut to the chase. Is CCP looking at TTK, or should I just take another extended break until things get sorted out? Yes its being TTK is being actively monitored and there are some plans ready to fire to address it, it may need fine tuning based on the results. Just started a thread to create context, debate, and content for considerations. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked



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