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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
10116
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Welcome to Hit Detection 514 we're aiming is so improved you could make up for the disadvantages of a weapon's dispersion.
Anyways back to our two examples above which are just representational and not accurate at all.
In game weapon thoery you have Short, Medium, and Long range weapons and everything in between, When looking at exhibit A you will see the TTK for short and long range weapons is relatively high. The reason why you scale the damage the way the two graphs are going to impose is to have a level of expected encounters. Now overall map design plays a massive role in this because if you have a wide map so to say people are going to use snipers and not even bother with shotguns as there is no cover to allow short ranged people to reach their targets before they get gunned down or alternatively throw everyone in a cargo box they're going to resort to short range weapons.
As you add obstacles to the map you create engagement opportunities. Places where a short, medium, or long range weapons are ideal but maybe not as ideal for others. As you add engagement opportunities you also start adding is disengagement opportunities by consequence. When combined this becomes the 'window of opportunity' where the player ability to engage its target is limited by the environment presented.
Overall Dust 514 does a fair job on this (except in the cases where one engagement range cannot reach the other such as top of the comm towers) so map design itself is not a universal issue in Dust 514 in comparison to a game such as call of duty's extremely constrained maps for justification of its sniper weapons having no scoping which might as well be a short range gun in that game.
So with the maps removed from the equation the next thing to look at is the guns themselves and back to our ttk vs range graph? So why does a short range and long range weapons have an extreme number for its ttk time? For long range weapons it has plenty to with the window of opportunity. The ability to shoot someone in a preferred location and usage is often fairly limited and not as frequent in comparison to someone storming a base full of guys in hallways. The sniper is only going to be shooting anyone stupid enough to run out. Making a sniper TTK to low results in a large amount of frustration however, shooting a guy with a difficult to aim weapon 10 times and he still does not drop is rather annoying and unrewarding.
As for why short range weapons get a high TTK is for the other reason, number of engagements. Getting into knifes edge is not as common as one thinks. Especially for a game that emphasis sensors, radar, and being able to pick out your targets at such long ranges. So for getting into effective range of the short ranged weapon is in itself should be a reward. Window of engagement for short range weapons also typically tends to be short as well as its pretty visceral and medium ranged weapons can perform rather well with less accuracy mechanics involved. Short range weapons however are typically not much more powerful than the medium ranged weapons on average BUT what normally happens with short range weapons is they have a tighter 'damage compression' or how much hurt they can put out in their allotted window of engagement. For example a shotgun is fairly deadly at close range but once empty takes a long time to reload and the AR is already gunning you down with its third magazine and you only have two reloads total. It also because of the lack of engagements is why so many side arm and sniper weapons are allotted far less ammo because they're not expected to upkeep combat.
Overall Dust 514s short range game is fairly decent time to kill and is well in the curve needed and fit the model fairly well (except nova knifers) Long range game is on the borderline due to the high values offered by some targets in combination with weapon skills creates a spectrum of the rifles are in the zone and rifles that are under the zone. These are however not our problem weapons we have today.
Our problem weapon is the medium range weapon. In a normalized game your medium range weapons would have some of the longest time to kills comparatively to the other weapons available to that game. However because of most map designs they are the most expected weapons to be engaging each other with thus high ammo counts to deal with the situations presented. In Dust 514's case the current ttk graph looks similar to exhibit's B where the medium range weapon is highest in regards of TTK. That people drop far faster to a plasma rifle than they do to laser rifles or a sniper rifle.
Why is this a particularly bad thing? Because it disenfranchises long range and short range (especially short range) play. Where medium range weapons are suitable for all engagement opportunities and most scenarios. Thus we start seeing a selection of guns that just 'role stomps' over the other guns making the other guns inferior to use based on their principles alone and creates an air of anti-diversity and in the long run destroys tall order playing and interactivity with the game.
Because of this we do not see some of our interesting fits anymore, such as a stormtrooper, a super tanked heavy with shotgun used to clear interiors. Fights are also mostly becoming much less fun for both shooter and the guy getting shot. The shooter loses out because of the lack of challenge in his targets, point click dead, no need to track. The victims lose out because they cannot be rewarded for good positioning or reflexes, good cover? not enough.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier Specialist
Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
10116
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
reserved
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier Specialist
Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
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Vegetation Monster
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
77
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:reserved
why do you post chapter books, ain't nobody got time to read this sh*t.
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VAHZZ
The dyst0pian Corporation
154
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
I stopped after "welcome to Hit Detection 514"...TOO....MUCH....WOOOOORDS!
The merc with a mouth - beware of random bouts of insanity!
i should make an Everything Nixon Corp
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
871
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
See this is what happens when CCP does too good of a job fixing stuff
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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Vegetation Monster
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
77
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Atiim wrote:See this is what happens when CCP does too good of a job fixing stuff
they broke sniper rifle hit detection...
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Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders
Top Men.
1688
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
HOLY **** IWS is saying intelligent things, keep this up and you'll be off the CPM...
CEO of The Corporate Raiders, We're still recruiting...
Level 1 Forum Warrior
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Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
2344
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Going to stop you right here
Everything you want to go on about with medium range trumping others is not the fault of average kill times, the problem lies in map design where even our enclosed installations more often than not are built with lots mid range hold spots for a fire fight but without enough sneaky alternate routes for a close range fighter to use to get in and most also have more than enough cover to make long range weapons like sniper rifles merely an annoyance since they have very limited firing lanes in that situation
Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
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Rowdy Railgunner
Xer Cloud Consortium
140
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Considering that a 'DREN' shotgun with no skills in it can down a 1200 HP heavy in 3 shots I find your entire argument invalid. I also find that people think that just because only one person shows up on the kill screen that that is the only person shooting at them. TTK is not too low in this game. I have had a few good fire fights in PC matches and in skirms when I was out alone trying to solo hack objectives. I find this whole campaign is nothing more than proto players wanting more advantage over lesser skilled suits and I will rally against it at all fronts. No damage reduction for weapons, no hit point buffs to suits, no exploitation of the power blocs trying seduce the masses into their misguided agenda. |
8213
The Neutral Zone
655
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vegetation Monster wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:reserved why do you post chapter books, ain't nobody got time to read this sh*t.
Yeah reading is so lame! Excuse me while I put on my Varsity Letterman Jacket, hop in my trans Am and go cruising for chicks at the nearest High School party! Pay no mind that I'm almost 30.
For us grown-ups, reading isn't a task or chore...
As far the actual post. I think a major problem lies in what Short, Medium, and long range is on these maps and in game theory.
If a sniper is considered long, but its effective from 50m to infinity.
Lasers are 50m to about 150m max. so everything after 150m belongs to nothing save an SR
Than an AR is medium at 25-50m? But if you went by the scale, the AR would have to be 150m to be considered max Medium.
A SCR Pistol <25m?
I made a simple chart:
http://t.co/wUL3niLv8b
The one thing you notice is the gaps between short to middle(red to orange) range and long to super long (green to pink). There are 2 safe zone gaps |
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VAHZZ
The dyst0pian Corporation
156
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
8213 wrote:Vegetation Monster wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:reserved why do you post chapter books, ain't nobody got time to read this sh*t. Yeah reading is so lame! Excuse me while I put on my Varsity Letterman Jacket, hop in my trans Am and go cruising for chicks at the nearest High School party! Pay no mind that I'm almost 30. For us grown-ups, reading isn't a task or chore... As far the actual post. I think a major problem lies in what Short, Medium, and long range is on these maps and in game theory. If a sniper is considered long, but its effective from 50m to infinity. Lasers are 50m to about 150m max. so everything after 150m belongs to nothing save an SR Than an AR is medium at 25-50m? But if you went by the scale, the AR would have to be 150m to be considered max Medium. A SCR Pistol <25m? I made a simple chart: http://t.co/wUL3niLv8bThe one thing you notice is the gaps between short to middle(red to orange) range and long to super long (green to pink). There are 2 safe zone gaps
I'm 21, i'm grown up, i reguarly read Edgar Allen Poe...but this is still too long for mua
The merc with a mouth - beware of random bouts of insanity!
i should make an Everything Nixon Corp
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Rowdy Railgunner
Xer Cloud Consortium
140
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
So the best solution in combination with some adjustments to weapon performance would be a direct damage nerf to overall output of the problem weapons. Remember when 1.0 rolled out we had issued out a 10% damage BUFF to ALL weapons to account for horrendous hit detection and now that hit detection is near where it should be the change needs to be rolled back on select weapons that are seemingly out of the 'curve'.
So following weapons that should be affected:
High Auto SMGs
High Auto Plasma Rifles
SCR (standard shots) and ASCR
Quit changing history. That is not the reason that a 10% damage buff was added to weapons. It was added because of the removal of it from skills. If you have to lie to get your way then your way is flawed. |
Vegetation Monster
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
78
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
8213 wrote:Vegetation Monster wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:reserved why do you post chapter books, ain't nobody got time to read this sh*t. Yeah reading is so lame! Excuse me while I put on my Varsity Letterman Jacket, hop in my trans Am and go cruising for chicks at the nearest High School party! Pay no mind that I'm almost 30. For us grown-ups, reading isn't a task or chore... As far the actual post. I think a major problem lies in what Short, Medium, and long range is on these maps and in game theory. If a sniper is considered long, but its effective from 50m to infinity. Lasers are 50m to about 150m max. so everything after 150m belongs to nothing save an SR Than an AR is medium at 25-50m? But if you went by the scale, the AR would have to be 150m to be considered max Medium. A SCR Pistol <25m? I made a simple chart: http://t.co/wUL3niLv8bThe one thing you notice is the gaps between short to middle(red to orange) range and long to super long (green to pink). There are 2 safe zone gaps
im 16... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
the more you know... your like 40 aren't you?
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Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders
Top Men.
1688
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Rowdy Railgunner wrote:Considering that a 'DREN' shotgun with no skills in it can down a 1200 HP heavy in 3 shots I find your entire argument invalid. I also find that people think that just because only one person shows up on the kill screen that that is the only person shooting at them. TTK is not too low in this game. I have had a few good fire fights in PC matches and in skirms when I was out alone trying to solo hack objectives. I find this whole campaign is nothing more than proto players wanting more advantage over lesser skilled suits and I will rally against it at all fronts. No damage reduction for weapons, no hit point buffs to suits, no exploitation of the power blocs trying seduce the masses into their misguided agenda.
Why shouldn't proto be better than militia?
CEO of The Corporate Raiders, We're still recruiting...
Level 1 Forum Warrior
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
1083
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Buff the LRs range and decrees the overheat damage by tiers that's all we want.
"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
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Mortedeamor
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
702
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vegetation Monster wrote:Atiim wrote:See this is what happens when CCP does too good of a job fixing stuff they broke sniper rifle hit detection...
sniping in dust is the most **** tarded thing..and not even a little bit realistic i agree with what i saw in your post wolf saber as i scanned it (for reals that **** might as well be a prologue to ur book)
bullet dispersion needs to be raised on certain weapons
and the whole bullets going around walls and through them is complete bullshit and needs to be fixed
one thing that did bother me sniping in dust is not hard it is easy and ******** not even a little bit realistic bullet travel in dust is laughable to be honest dust is going to end up just like halo 2 a bunch of assholes running around sniping eachother and thats it |
Vegetation Monster
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
79
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mortedeamor wrote:Vegetation Monster wrote:Atiim wrote:See this is what happens when CCP does too good of a job fixing stuff they broke sniper rifle hit detection... sniping in dust is the most **** tarded thing..and not even a little bit realistic i agree with what i saw in your post wolf saber as i scanned it (for reals that **** might as well be a prologue to ur book) bullet dispersion needs to be raised on certain weapons and the whole bullets going around walls and through them is complete bullshit and needs to be fixed one thing that did bother me sniping in dust is not hard it is easy and ******** not even a little bit realistic bullet travel in dust is laughable to be honest dust is going to end up just like halo 2 a bunch of assholes running around sniping eachother and thats it
no atmosphere or gravity on planets and even in real a 400m kill with a sniper is ideal with very very little bullet drop and you have to think about it that the snipers we are using are thousands of years into the future.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
10123
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mortedeamor wrote:Vegetation Monster wrote:Atiim wrote:See this is what happens when CCP does too good of a job fixing stuff they broke sniper rifle hit detection... sniping in dust is the most **** tarded thing..and not even a little bit realistic i agree with what i saw in your post wolf saber as i scanned it (for reals that **** might as well be a prologue to ur book) bullet dispersion needs to be raised on certain weapons and the whole bullets going around walls and through them is complete bullshit and needs to be fixed one thing that did bother me sniping in dust is not hard it is easy and ******** not even a little bit realistic bullet travel in dust is laughable to be honest dust is going to end up just like halo 2 a bunch of assholes running around sniping eachother and thats it
at least its not like call of duty's hop off a cliff 360 x4 and head shot a guy with every 360 then land the jump on a mattress.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier Specialist
Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
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crazy space 1
Vherokior Combat Logistics
Minmatar Republic
1976
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 23:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
I've got 12 million skill points and I can get just as many kills using militia gear , this isn't right :/ why did I level up? |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
10123
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Posted - 2013.11.11 23:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
crazy space 1 wrote:I've got 12 million skill points and I can get just as many kills using militia gear , this isn't right :/ why did I level up?
And people wonder why I went omni.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier Specialist
Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
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DTOracle
The Surrogates Of War
145
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Posted - 2013.11.12 00:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
I would like to add that the base Dropsuit speed be brought back up, especially for scouts. Since the hit detection is fixed, I want my 11+m/s back. Scouts are simply too slow ATM. |
8213
The Neutral Zone
655
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Posted - 2013.11.12 00:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
VAHZZ wrote:
I'm 21, i'm grown up, i reguarly read Edgar Allen Poe...but this is still too long for mua
Its not even 1000 words... perhaps you still need to grow up more or hope you never have a job that requires you know massive amounts of information on short notice... ?
Kudos for reading Poe though. Been a favorite of mine for 25 years :) |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
10127
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Posted - 2013.11.12 00:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
DTOracle wrote:I would like to add that the base Dropsuit speed be brought back up, especially for scouts. Since the hit detection is fixed, I want my 11+m/s back. Scouts are simply too slow ATM.
I wished that was a solution but we're at our speed limits almost. (proto minni scout + max proto kin kats = almost breaking game)
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier Specialist
Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
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Thor McStrut
Reckoners
368
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Posted - 2013.11.12 00:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:Vegetation Monster wrote:Atiim wrote:See this is what happens when CCP does too good of a job fixing stuff they broke sniper rifle hit detection... sniping in dust is the most **** tarded thing..and not even a little bit realistic i agree with what i saw in your post wolf saber as i scanned it (for reals that **** might as well be a prologue to ur book) bullet dispersion needs to be raised on certain weapons and the whole bullets going around walls and through them is complete bullshit and needs to be fixed one thing that did bother me sniping in dust is not hard it is easy and ******** not even a little bit realistic bullet travel in dust is laughable to be honest dust is going to end up just like halo 2 a bunch of assholes running around sniping eachother and thats it at least its not like call of duty's hop off a cliff 360 x4 and head shot a guy with every 360 then land the jump on a mattress.
Hey now. Trick-shot of Duty is fo realz bro. Don't hate. Themz take mad skillz yo!  |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
10127
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Posted - 2013.11.12 00:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Thor McStrut wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:Vegetation Monster wrote:Atiim wrote:See this is what happens when CCP does too good of a job fixing stuff they broke sniper rifle hit detection... sniping in dust is the most **** tarded thing..and not even a little bit realistic i agree with what i saw in your post wolf saber as i scanned it (for reals that **** might as well be a prologue to ur book) bullet dispersion needs to be raised on certain weapons and the whole bullets going around walls and through them is complete bullshit and needs to be fixed one thing that did bother me sniping in dust is not hard it is easy and ******** not even a little bit realistic bullet travel in dust is laughable to be honest dust is going to end up just like halo 2 a bunch of assholes running around sniping eachother and thats it at least its not like call of duty's hop off a cliff 360 x4 and head shot a guy with every 360 then land the jump on a mattress. Hey now. Trick-shot of Duty is fo realz bro. Don't hate. Themz take mad skillz yo!
True I don't mind the trick shots, I hate the quick scopes because it abuses a mechanic that modded controllers have made a point in using. basically locking onto to people with it.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier Specialist
Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
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crazy space 1
Vherokior Combat Logistics
Minmatar Republic
1976
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Posted - 2013.11.12 00:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
But seriously I don't see the point and taking out my gek anymore I just use the recruiter AR BPO I got works just as well at getting kills
throw on 2 complex armor reps and an advanced level shield buffer since I know if I'm shot I'm dead, but if I survive I need to get back to full hp before I can show my face |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
696
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Posted - 2013.11.12 00:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rowdy Railgunner wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
So the best solution in combination with some adjustments to weapon performance would be a direct damage nerf to overall output of the problem weapons. Remember when 1.0 rolled out we had issued out a 10% damage BUFF to ALL weapons to account for horrendous hit detection and now that hit detection is near where it should be the change needs to be rolled back on select weapons that are seemingly out of the 'curve'.
So following weapons that should be affected:
High Auto SMGs
High Auto Plasma Rifles
SCR (standard shots) and ASCR
Quit changing history. That is not the reason that a 10% damage buff was added to weapons. It was added because of the removal of it from skills. If you have to lie to get your way then your way is flawed.
You're both right, the 10% damage buff was added because people felt that TTK was to high back then - as a result of the weaponry skill being changed, as well as the non functioning AA and the poor hit detection.
Now that hit detection and AA are actually working, TTK has gone through the floor - removing the 10% buff seems like the low hanging fruit as far as increasing it again goes.
EDIT: Increasing the speed of some dropsuits (i.e. light frames) could also help, but that comes with other game design considerations - such as the time it takes to reach objectives. |
Rowdy Railgunner
Xer Cloud Consortium
142
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Posted - 2013.11.12 00:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
crazy space 1 wrote:I've got 12 million skill points and I can get just as many kills using militia gear , this isn't right :/ why did I level up?
So that your militia gear is better. That is what the skill system is in place for. |
crazy space 1
Vherokior Combat Logistics
Minmatar Republic
1976
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Posted - 2013.11.12 00:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
Rowdy Railgunner wrote:crazy space 1 wrote:I've got 12 million skill points and I can get just as many kills using militia gear , this isn't right :/ why did I level up? So that your militia gear is better. That is what the skill system is in place for.
But it works just as well as my gek. So why not just remove weapons tiers and make it so my advantage is my skills only not the gun? Right now proto weapons are pointless. |
Vegetation Monster
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
83
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Posted - 2013.11.12 00:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
8213 wrote:VAHZZ wrote:
I'm 21, i'm grown up, i reguarly read Edgar Allen Poe...but this is still too long for mua
Its not even 1000 words... perhaps you still need to grow up more or hope you never have a job that requires you know massive amounts of information on short notice... ? Kudos for reading Poe though. Been a favorite of mine for 25 years :)
you're old, you got nothing more to do in life than read and play games, im young and ima do what ever the hell i want, i like dust 514 so i play it, i like football so i play it, i dislike reading so i dont waste my time on it but i love to argue and im too lazy to capitalize the "i" in my writing because i can do what ever the fk i want.
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