DUST Search - Why proto logis are a problem

TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

What most people fail to realize that when people say "logi is OP", they don't mean that logi is simply a better fighter.
It's that they're pretty much the same as the assault (with a few swaps, like less speed but more eHP) BUT get 3-4 equipment slots.
When people stack plates and extenders in these threads to show that logis aren't that far ahead eHP wise, they fail to realize that stacking plates and extenders is not the best of suits.
Here are my logi and assault suits, each are designed to push it to the maximum, I have been tweaking my suits for ages and these are the optimal one's I found:
Note: I have CPU/PG skills maxed, I could not push this suit further.

Gallente Assault:
High:
Complex damage mod
Complex shield extender
Complex damage mod

Low:
Basic plate
Basic plate
Enhanced armor rep
Enhanced armor rep

Weapons:
GEK 38 Assault rifle
Syndicate SMG

Grenade:
M1 Locus

Equipment:
Allotek Nanohive

Armor: 449
Shield: 217
Combined: 666 (huehuehue)
Damage bonus (skills not included): 20%
Regen rate: 7.5hp/s
Movement speed: 4.81
Sprint speed: 7.08
Stamina: 157.50
Stamina regen: 15.75

Not bad right?

Now let's look at the Gallente logi:
High:
Complex damage mod
Complex damage mod
Complex shield extender

Low:
Enhanced ferroscale plate
Basic plate
Basic plate
Basic plate
Enhanced Cardiac regulator

Weapon:
Duvolle Assault Rifle

Grenade:
M1 Locus

Equipment:
Wiyrkomi Triage hives
Wiyrkomi Triage hives
A-86 active scanner
Ishukone Gauged hive

Shield: 181
Armor: 560
Combined: 741
Damage bonus (skills not included): 25% (I could fit a duvolle on my logi, which has +5% damage over a gek)
Regen rate: 5hp/s (Inherent logi regen)
Movement speed: 4.54 m/s
Sprint speed: 6.67m/s
Stamina: 198.19
Stamina regen: 22.89

Conclusion:
Seems pretty legit right?
The logi has more damage, more eHP, more stamina and more stamina regen for the price of speed and a sidearm right?
Oh wait, but that would only be legit if both were combat focused suits, I.E both have one equipment.
But the logi has 4 equipment slots, making it far far more verastile and just a better deal overall.
Especially with the 6x triage hives I fit on my logi, I am ******* invincible inside one of those.
Low on health?
Plop a triage hive, return to battle faster than shields can recharge.
I also couldn't fit a scanner on my assault, making me much more blind.
Also, I could fit a kin cat instead of a regulator to be even faster than my assault, but I prefer the sustainability that regulators provide.

How I think this should be solved:
Two problems that I see here:
1. Logis get 5hp/s on armor inherent, which allows me to give up on a armor rep and put on an extra plate, increasing the eHP gap further. HOWEVER CCP said they will change it once they have the infastracture to do it (something about the code doesn't allow them to put on a more logi orientated bonus)

2. The CPU/PG gap is just damn too high.
Could solve it by either reducing the CPU/PG on logis, forcing them to decide on either being a combat suit or a logi suit, not both, OR increasing the CPU/PG on the assault. (Should also buff the scout CPU/PG and heavy CPU/PG if this is done, just to be fair)

lets not forget scouts! the minmatar scout mk.0 has a measly 230 cpu.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 42	Posted - 2013.11.08 03:46:00 - [121] - Quote Amarr proto logi 30 million sp ..... cost me 1.4 mill for 10 suits. A person can make that even more ISK expensive. SO they nerf the Logi. I submit a ticket get a respec and now Im specialized in 2 roles.We'll say heavy and assault with proto AV. Its the sp of the player.You cant stop that at all.You can cry nerf on everything but the fact remains that I or someone else has that much sp and there for is proficient in a great many things. Logi dual roles for the cost of duel sp Closed Beta Tester: Survivor of Infantry lock on swarms,map glitches,Large missile SIgarus spawn camps,and PS3 crashes.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 459	Posted - 2013.11.11 07:51:00 - [122] - Quote To Many, But not to All: 20 of these threads a day and they still waste my time in arguments that have been going on since the beginning. I've come to terms that we will never agree. Logis are great other classes suck, is that what you want to hear? You are right of course, the augmented processes for growing logi clones is quite involved. (And this is all true according to EVE lore... that I've just made up) Generally the whole cloning process just spits out fat ones, skinny ones, and angry jocks to be handed a weapon and die on the battlefield. To the logis they give the brains, the best suits, the bonuses, and for those that want the upgraded models even better skin coloring, muscle tone, and working organs to enjoy the finer things of life during their short time of activation. That the brutes of the battle class have finally noticed is surprising - i guess we've never given them quite the amount of attention that they needed. They can be as petulant as undisciplined children sometimes when they don't get their way. But no matter, the most interesting part is that these calloused Neanderthals would rather have logis sink to their level rather than demand that their classes also rise to the calling of greatness and nobility. No, they would rather that these qualities be stripped from the class so that I too might wallow in their filthy weakness. Do they demand more Module Slots?! No Do they desire better class bonuses?! No Do they desire greater racial bonuses?! No But like the dog that's jealous of the owner's fine meal he seeks to take it or hide it rather than merely ask, nay BEG, for better food. It's not their fault. They have neither the genes nor the advanced dexterity to type, much less speak, about their wants to their task masters. They would rather have us all swimming in the mud like serfs than eating at the table like kings. Pick your side. Nerfs or Buffs. Get everyone to Live in dropsuit squalor or fight like kings in better class dropsuits. Your choice. May you be a better man for thinking it through. Sarcasm is the healing balm for a festering soul.
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1507	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:13:00 - [123] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: To Many, But not to All: 20 of these threads a day and they still waste my time in arguments that have been going on since the beginning. I've come to terms that we will never agree. Logis are great other classes suck, is that what you want to hear? You are right of course, the augmented processes for growing logi clones is quite involved. (And this is all true according to EVE lore... that I've just made up) Generally the whole cloning process just spits out fat ones, skinny ones, and angry jocks to be handed a weapon and die on the battlefield. To the logis they give the brains, the best suits, the bonuses, and for those that want the upgraded models even better skin coloring, muscle tone, and working organs to enjoy the finer things of life during their short time of activation. That the brutes of the battle class have finally noticed is surprising - i guess we've never given them quite the amount of attention that they needed. They can be as petulant as undisciplined children sometimes when they don't get their way. But no matter, the most interesting part is that these calloused Neanderthals would rather have logis sink to their level rather than demand that their classes also rise to the calling of greatness and nobility. No, they would rather that these qualities be stripped from the class so that I too might wallow in their filthy weakness. Do they demand more Module Slots?! No Do they desire better class bonuses?! No Do they desire greater racial bonuses?! No But like the dog that's jealous of the owner's fine meal he seeks to take it or hide it rather than merely ask, nay BEG, for better food. It's not their fault. They have neither the genes nor the advanced dexterity to type, much less speak, about their wants to their task masters. They would rather have us all swimming in the mud like serfs than eating at the table like kings. Pick your side. Nerfs or Buffs. Get everyone to Live in dropsuit squalor or fight like kings in better class dropsuits. Your choice. May you be a better man for thinking it through. Sarcasm is the healing balm for a festering soul. If we buff everything else up to an OP items standards, then that masks the originally planned balance and TTK. If we buffed every gun up to the level of TAR, what do you think would be wrong? If we buffed every gun up to the level of the flay what do you think would be wrong? If we buffed every suit up to the level of the CalLogi, what do you think would be wrong? Its the one outlier among the med frames. If you throw it out, the scale of HP between suits is much more reasonable, and balance is a bit better with heavies having their HP range far from that of a med frame can reach. Buffing everything up to an OP item isn't how balance works. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
biGRAPE Salad Bowl Limted The Umbra Combine 0	Posted - 2013.11.13 04:03:00 - [124] - Quote I kill Proto with my militia ar I don't have a problem with proto wearing care bears
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 471	Posted - 2013.11.13 04:44:00 - [125] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: If we buff everything else up to an OP items standards, then that masks the originally planned balance and TTK. If we buffed every gun up to the level of TAR, what do you think would be wrong? If we buffed every gun up to the level of the flay what do you think would be wrong? If we buffed every suit up to the level of the CalLogi, what do you think would be wrong? Its the one outlier among the med frames. If you throw it out, the scale of HP between suits is much more reasonable, and balance is a bit better with heavies having their HP range far from that of a med frame can reach. Buffing everything up to an OP item isn't how balance works. Here you are trying to redirect the my comment - the TAR and Flaylock are not an issue as the community at large recognized the imbalance. Buffing them would have lead to shorter TTK and we would be speaking to that now instead. Also, to buff everything isn't actually a way to find balance, but perhaps you are speaking to buffing just a few things - yeah, that does work - like the dropsuits, weapons balances in the past, recent buff to heavies, and equipment, etc. Try to keep focused here. As far as i have seen the originally planned balance fell away long ago, while it is desired it can no longer be framed as we have seen it. CCP knows. They have meetings about the original vision of the game and what it looks like now. Remember EVE had many plans that were changed along the way because it made a better game overall (watch the EVE keynote and you'll get it). Right now the Logi suits are great (please reread original post), but the others lack in skills, class, and flexibility... but they got the logi right. Now it is time to make the other suits also perform at their best and bring more than just face burning to the game. The issue is with the Flexibility of the logi that comes with the CPU/PG and module slots and class/race skills of the Logistics class. The arguments are about how to give the other suits flexibility also. So the choices revolve around two view points: Make everything suck (reduce logis to the current vanilla and unbalanced dropsuits that we have now) or make all suits awesome (raise them to a balanced level). What you seem to be saying is that if we used your solution to get rid of the logi suits altogether - your second to last sentence - that would solve the suit imbalances. That is wrong. Speak to each of the many people that use the other dropsuits and ask them if they think their suit is balanced. That the skills, the stats, the modules, the racial bonuses, etc. are all good and that nothing else needs changed. You know the reply that you will get - no, they are not balanced (for those who couldn't guess). So, your solution to remove the logi suits does not solve the imbalance problem. If you can offer something that is constructive on how to do that then do so; like an idea about skill trees or new dropsuit values that you believe would even everything out. To merely reference past changes only shows us that more change is on the way. Would you like it to be balanced the first time or a year of suck before the community sees its mistake and asks for better suits?
Oswald Rehnquist 548	Posted - 2013.11.13 04:51:00 - [126] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Now it is time to make the other suits also perform at their best and bring more than just face burning to the game. The issue is with the Flexibility of the logi that comes with the CPU/PG and module slots and class/race skills of the Logistics class. The arguments are about how to give the other suits flexibility also. So the choices revolve around two view points: I"m not throwing too much into the logi vs salt debate, nor am I hear to nerf any slaying potential, but I personally think flexibility is a bad trait to give to a suit because any specialization will then have to come from exclusive content like heavy weapons limited to sentinels to give any real definition to the more niche roles out there. Otherwise the most open slotted suit is thy best suit if flexibility going to be the main feature that will be able to take advantage of any role's new content to significant degree. Below 28 dB
Kazeno Rannaa BIG BAD W0LVES 308	Posted - 2013.11.14 01:00:00 - [127] - Quote TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote: Cat Merc wrote: What most people fail to realize that when people say "logi is OP", they don't mean that logi is simply a better fighter. It's that they're pretty much the same as the assault (with a few swaps, like less speed but more eHP) BUT get 3-4 equipment slots. When people stack plates and extenders in these threads to show that logis aren't that far ahead eHP wise, they fail to realize that stacking plates and extenders is not the best of suits. Here are my logi and assault suits, each are designed to push it to the maximum, I have been tweaking my suits for ages and these are the optimal one's I found: Note: I have CPU/PG skills maxed, I could not push this suit further. Gallente Assault: High: Complex damage mod Complex shield extender Complex damage mod Low: Basic plate Basic plate Enhanced armor rep Enhanced armor rep Weapons: GEK 38 Assault rifle Syndicate SMG Grenade: M1 Locus Equipment: Allotek Nanohive Armor: 449 Shield: 217 Combined: 666 (huehuehue) Damage bonus (skills not included): 20% Regen rate: 7.5hp/s Movement speed: 4.81 Sprint speed: 7.08 Stamina: 157.50 Stamina regen: 15.75 Not bad right? Now let's look at the Gallente logi: High: Complex damage mod Complex damage mod Complex shield extender Low: Enhanced ferroscale plate Basic plate Basic plate Basic plate Enhanced Cardiac regulator Weapon: Duvolle Assault Rifle Grenade: M1 Locus Equipment: Wiyrkomi Triage hives Wiyrkomi Triage hives A-86 active scanner Ishukone Gauged hive Shield: 181 Armor: 560 Combined: 741 Damage bonus (skills not included): 25% (I could fit a duvolle on my logi, which has +5% damage over a gek) Regen rate: 5hp/s (Inherent logi regen) Movement speed: 4.54 m/s Sprint speed: 6.67m/s Stamina: 198.19 Stamina regen: 22.89 Conclusion: Seems pretty legit right? The logi has more damage, more eHP, more stamina and more stamina regen for the price of speed and a sidearm right? Oh wait, but that would only be legit if both were combat focused suits, I.E both have one equipment. But the logi has 4 equipment slots, making it far far more verastile and just a better deal overall. Especially with the 6x triage hives I fit on my logi, I am ******* invincible inside one of those. Low on health? Plop a triage hive, return to battle faster than shields can recharge. I also couldn't fit a scanner on my assault, making me much more blind. Also, I could fit a kin cat instead of a regulator to be even faster than my assault, but I prefer the sustainability that regulators provide. How I think this should be solved: Two problems that I see here: 1. Logis get 5hp/s on armor inherent, which allows me to give up on a armor rep and put on an extra plate, increasing the eHP gap further. HOWEVER CCP said they will change it once they have the infastracture to do it (something about the code doesn't allow them to put on a more logi orientated bonus) 2. The CPU/PG gap is just damn too high. Could solve it by either reducing the CPU/PG on logis, forcing them to decide on either being a combat suit or a logi suit, not both, OR increasing the CPU/PG on the assault. (Should also buff the scout CPU/PG and heavy CPU/PG if this is done, just to be fair) lets not forget scouts! the minmatar scout mk.0 has a measly 230 cpu. Your argumentation based upon a purely statistically focused understanding of the suits doesnGÇÖt give an accurate picture. The PG and CPU of a Logi is supposed to be higher than an assault. To compare the to together is ludicrous. The inherent armor reaping bonus goes to greater survivability of the logi as they are being pelted on the from lines. Whihc in my mind this makes sense. To loose that, would incite a community wide scream for a respect, which is already bad enough with the vehicle changes that are inbound. HTFU and adapt. And as for the comparison, I noticed that you only did it with one race. This being said, the generalization from on specific comparison goes to delude those reading this thread. I would recommend a more comprehensive comparative analysis before pushing further with this thread. I for one know that my Amarr logi is at a distinct disadvantage when compared to the greater majority of other suits, but I still seem able to survive in the field.
rebecca watson OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 70	Posted - 2013.11.14 05:49:00 - [128] - Quote I can't believe that only one person: Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES [page 4 in the thread] pointed out that Cat Merc chose the logi with the reduction to PG/CPU to make his comparison. Hence all the proto equipment in the fit. Other logi's have to make more choices in fitting for either their logi or slayer roles. With that said, Cat is still generally making a good point. Ive waited awhile to weigh in on this, but i've heard many sides and here's the best i've heard from this thread and the community. I've played logi- since the day. Mk0. I love it. I winge at it, but logi's need a change. I used to think that assaults needed a buff, so that my precious logi wouldnt be changed, but I don't play assault, and I can't speak for those players. I do however, think assaults should have a distinct advantage in combat situations. anyway, onto the logi CHANGES: 1. Require all equip slots filled. You can still slap a lvl 1 needle, nanohive and rep on there and get good fits. Sorry. 2. We can let go of the armor rep bonus across the board, and relegate it to one racial suit only. The logic that a logi "has no one else to rep him" is negated by the fact that on average, logi's have more low slots, and the opportunity to fit local armor reps. I maxed out armor repair on my Minnie logi and all my suits rep faster than my shields. that's wack. A BIG TALL GLASS OF NOPE: We can't do sidearm only with the current dropsuit selection. There will be another massive respec push, and there is not a wide-enough selection of sidearms currently to make that situation feasible. Someone suggested the Six Kin SMG- ok, so every logi now has to have one required? -It's a good thing that logi's can be flexible- there are many many different roles to be filled by the varity of equipment available in DUST 514. Combat logi's are a legit thing at high-level play, as well as casual. There are better ways to balance logi's other than gimping the weapon selection. Remember, that's already done with the lack of sidearm Misc: Although the difference in HP is significant, good players know that movement and strafe speed is too. I want this difference to be pronounced between assault and logi players. I think that with higher slot and pg/cpu numbers on logi's they still have the choice of getting good speed with brute force, but should pay a price in their fittings. Lastly: +1 [Justin Tymes] Heavy = 0 Assault = 1 Scout = 2 Logi = 3/4
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4382	Posted - 2013.11.14 07:13:00 - [129] - Quote rebecca watson wrote: I can't believe that only one person: Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES [page 4 in the thread] pointed out that Cat Merc chose the logi with the reduction to PG/CPU to make his comparison. Hence all the proto equipment in the fit. Other logi's have to make more choices in fitting for either their logi or slayer roles. With that said, Cat is still generally making a good point. Ive waited awhile to weigh in on this, but i've heard many sides and here's the best i've heard from this thread and the community. I've played logi- since the day. Mk0. I love it. I winge at it, but logi's need a change. I used to think that assaults needed a buff, so that my precious logi wouldnt be changed, but I don't play assault, and I can't speak for those players. I do however, think assaults should have a distinct advantage in combat situations. anyway, onto the logi CHANGES: 1. Require all equip slots filled. You can still slap a lvl 1 needle, nanohive and rep on there and get good fits. Sorry. 2. We can let go of the armor rep bonus across the board, and relegate it to one racial suit only. The logic that a logi "has no one else to rep him" is negated by the fact that on average, logi's have more low slots, and the opportunity to fit local armor reps. I maxed out armor repair on my Minnie logi and all my suits rep faster than my shields. that's wack. A BIG TALL GLASS OF NOPE: We can't do sidearm only with the current dropsuit selection. There will be another massive respec push, and there is not a wide-enough selection of sidearms currently to make that situation feasible. Someone suggested the Six Kin SMG- ok, so every logi now has to have one required? -It's a good thing that logi's can be flexible- there are many many different roles to be filled by the varity of equipment available in DUST 514. Combat logi's are a legit thing at high-level play, as well as casual. There are better ways to balance logi's other than gimping the weapon selection. Remember, that's already done with the lack of sidearm Misc: Although the difference in HP is significant, good players know that movement and strafe speed is too. I want this difference to be pronounced between assault and logi players. I think that with higher slot and pg/cpu numbers on logi's they still have the choice of getting good speed with brute force, but should pay a price in their fittings. Lastly: +1 [Justin Tymes] Heavy = 0 Assault = 1 Scout = 2 Logi = 3/4 Gal logi got equipment CPU/PG reductions yes, but the Gal Ass got weapon CPU/PG reductions. Soooo *Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant* *Beta Vet* *Level 4 Forum Warrior*
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4341	Posted - 2013.12.04 22:51:00 - [130] - Quote meow Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.



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