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This game does NOT feel like a high HP tracking shooter right now...

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Meeko Fent Expert Intervention Caldari State 1373	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:43:00 - [61] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Dexter307 wrote: Thor McStrut wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: Last night my iscr went from good to godly so HP across the board might need boosting back up That or the 10% damage boost removed. A 10% health boost would be better. People react more positively to gains than to losses Good point. Do it please. That should make all well It's only a fix to a fix to another fix. Look at grenades. Everyone wants to limit carrying capacity to 2, stop nanohives from restocking them... yadda, yadda, yadda. If anyone remembers, grenades were buffed in the first place because splash damage was coded on a 2D plane which negated damage if your intended target had even a pixel of elevation. Short term fix was to buff them to insane levels. Splash damage was fixed in 1.2 and now they're stupidly OP. Roll back hot fixes before simply trying to nerf or buff things. Remove the emergency 10% damage buff (and all the little ninja changes from 1.0) and reassess what needs to be fixed. Well, that's what I mean. A ten percent buff would nullify the effects of the emergency buff. Get my reasoning? +10% Damage +10% Health It cancels each other out Meeko's Novelty Shop Opening Soon! We (will)sell all the novelty items you desire! Really! King of Uncertainty.
KA24DERT Pure Innocence. EoN. 244	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:50:00 - [62] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: KA24DERT wrote: One of the first things that should happen to try to balance this out is the total removal of Auto Aim. I'm sure every scrub sucking at that teat will whine, but it's one of the biggest reasons we're all so short-lived now. Second thing that should be looked at is AR Damage, which should start with a 30% nerf in its current form, or a 10% nerf with added dispersion. Third thing that should be looked at is the Forge gun in relation to infantry. It needs a specific Infantry damage nerf, and some degree of dispersion (so that you can hit a tank, but not easily snipe a scout). Address those specific things and strategy, dropsuit fittings, and player skill will regain some of their lost meaning in this game. I like how the community thinks nerfing core mechanics is the answer to short TTK. Either reduce all weapon damage by 10%, or buff HP on all suits by 10% Core mechanics like aiming aren't causing the short TTK, it's the very potent guns. Dial their effect down. Aim Assist isn't to blame and anybody whose played halo knows that. Not every gun needs a nerf. And a 10% nerf on the AR is not enough to make a difference. Aim Assist has a large part in the reduction of battlefield longevity, it's just a fact. How could you argue that computer assisted aiming does not contribute to damage dealt? Aim Assist isn't a required mechanic, it's a crutch for people who can't aim, and the game was just fine without it. It's the first thing that should go in an attempt to rebalance things. Failing that, the AR needs a 30% nerf, or 10% nerf with more dispersion.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 318	Posted - 2013.11.05 22:06:00 - [63] - Quote The TTK is too short, sure, but I like the game better in many ways now. To be clear, I'm no twitch-shooter master, and would likely do much better with a longer TTK. I've personally never seen the aim-bot in action, maybe it doesn't change what I do much, idk. But, like others have said, this is clearly the result of a long list of hotfixes put in to compensate for poor hit detection and other core issues. I think that's a more likely explanation than the thought that this short of a TTK is what the devs had in mind. BUT.... too twitchy or not, I very much appreciate the fact that it's not completely random whether or not my shots hit the target and I, not the server, has the most influence on whether or not I lose a firefight. Unfortunately, there's not much point making a major balance pass right now with the new weapons coming out in a month. It would be wasted effort to an extent because the rail and combat rifles need to be out in the wild for a while before we know what really needs to be done. A 10% health buff might help a little, but I just hate the idea of stacking yet another hotfix on top of the pile now. It also probably wouldn't do a whole lot to remedy the disparity between the AR and most other weapons. It would still be king, but just kill you a little slower. Templar'd for her pleasure Amarr victor!
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2983	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:00:00 - [64] - Quote There's serveral issues here. When 1.4 originally released, I thought protobears were just whining about Aim-Assist. I didn't "feel it". It turned out I had aim-assist off. It does make a noticeable difference, tugging your reticule to and fro noticeably even if you have your sensitivity configured to make it less effective (it was observed that configuration of sensitivity apparently had some impact on the degree of impact of the AA). The improvements in hit-detection are another piece of the puzzle. If your AR/SMG/whatever lands most of its clip, whether AA or hit-detection related, the dynamics of weapon DPS shift greatly from when that wasn't the case. I think this (and the fact its a default weapon and there aren't many other options as flexible) is a big part of the AR issue. I have proficiency 5 with scrambler rifles, and you can take people down very very quick with them, but oddly you can take people down with exile and 0 SP invested pretty damn easily as well. I try to avoid making these TTK discussions about the AR because I think it comes off as a "nerf ARs" flame/*****-fest. TTK would be short regardless of whether or not the AR existed. BUT, it definitely has a very very easy time killing people even with little to no skill investment. I don't like what Dust is now, it's more twitchy than Halo with shorter TTK. Maybe some people like that sort of game. I'd like to think Dust is supposed to be a different sort of game like that. However, if the masses of people acclimated to CoD-type games warble and blarrg about how this is what the game is supposed to be (because it's all they know, or what they're familiar with) then the chance to have a game that's actually different or worth a damn is lost. Maybe that sort of shooter would be popular anyway, it just wouldn't be a shooter I'd play.
Alpha 443-6732 211	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:24:00 - [65] - Quote Honestly, if CCP is going in the low TTK direction, they should increase weapon ranges so that tactical and situational awareness is focused upon more than who can move randomly the longest while spraying at their enemies. Low ttk =/= twitch shooter low ttk with low range or forced cqc = twitch shooter AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
Zyrus Amalomyn Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 273	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:33:00 - [66] - Quote When I tried the Aim assist build, I was completely shocked at how short TTK was at that moment, on top of the incredibly bad mouse aiming that made me quit this game. I realize hit detection was screwy... but fixing both just ruined the gameplay for me. I was interested in tactical movements and using crouch to make long range aiming viable. This? This is COD in space, and I'll not play it.
Cosgar ParagonX 7364	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:45:00 - [67] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Honestly, if CCP is going in the low TTK direction, they should increase weapon ranges so that tactical and situational awareness is focused upon more than who can move randomly the longest while spraying at their enemies. Low ttk =/= twitch shooter low ttk with low range or forced cqc = twitch shooter I'm pretty sure many of us want Dust to be better than that. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Nguruthos IX PEN 15 CLUB 2101	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:48:00 - [68] - Quote CoD 514?
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK 256	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:48:00 - [69] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Honestly, if CCP is going in the low TTK direction, they should increase weapon ranges so that tactical and situational awareness is focused upon more than who can move randomly the longest while spraying at their enemies. Low ttk =/= twitch shooter low ttk with low range or forced cqc = twitch shooter I'm pretty sure many of us want Dust to be better than that. That's the reason we re all still here right? Something witty here. How about? #DELAY 514 ... been waiting for a rail rifle longer than SoTa's been trolling.
Cosgar ParagonX 7364	Posted - 2013.11.06 00:51:00 - [70] - Quote Soldner VonKuechle wrote: Cosgar wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Honestly, if CCP is going in the low TTK direction, they should increase weapon ranges so that tactical and situational awareness is focused upon more than who can move randomly the longest while spraying at their enemies. Low ttk =/= twitch shooter low ttk with low range or forced cqc = twitch shooter I'm pretty sure many of us want Dust to be better than that. That's the reason we re all still here right? And it's the reason why many of us are leaving as well. CCP can't get core mechanics right and it's going to kill this game. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK 257	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:15:00 - [71] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Soldner VonKuechle wrote: Cosgar wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Honestly, if CCP is going in the low TTK direction, they should increase weapon ranges so that tactical and situational awareness is focused upon more than who can move randomly the longest while spraying at their enemies. Low ttk =/= twitch shooter low ttk with low range or forced cqc = twitch shooter I'm pretty sure many of us want Dust to be better than that. That's the reason we re all still here right? And it's the reason why many of us are leaving as well. CCP can't get core mechanics right and it's going to kill this game. Stupid eternal optimism. Something witty here. How about? #DELAY 514 ... been waiting for a rail rifle longer than SoTa's been trolling.
Alpha 443-6732 211	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:16:00 - [72] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Honestly, if CCP is going in the low TTK direction, they should increase weapon ranges so that tactical and situational awareness is focused upon more than who can move randomly the longest while spraying at their enemies. Low ttk =/= twitch shooter low ttk with low range or forced cqc = twitch shooter I'm pretty sure many of us want Dust to be better than that. Better in what way? Are you suggesting that higher strafe speeds and ttk = more tactical/situational awareness needed? Personally, I don't think DUST could be treated as a serious shooter if ttk (e.g. not lone wolf focused, similar to how eve is a serious space mmo) gets increased while we have the short ranges we have now. It would turn combat into whoever can dance the most while shooting at a target, which was similar to what we had in chromosome. A scout will never be able to perform an ambush/stealth role with it's low health as long as ttk is increased. If ttk is increased to the point of a tracking shooter, ambushes and tactical play will be nerfed to where only aiming "skill" and strafing are the only defining factors in a fight, which is ridiculous and just a way for the l33t players to prevent getting outplayed tactically. In my opinion, adding range while keeping the current ttk would allow for more use of cover and increase the need to be aware of your situation before engaging. It would allow more control over situations and promote teamwork, while reducing the usefulness of simply "ramboing" targets and charging through the open to kill people (instead, having people positioned around an area to lock it down, having the ability to fire at targets moving throughout the open). Weapons would be powerful, but you would have a much higher likelihood of avoiding it altogether with some thought beforehand. AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 270	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:25:00 - [73] - Quote CCP's classic double buffing..... People are complaining about aiming mechanics?? we will give them a device to assist them aim~ and then fix hit detection... If we all actually had to do our own tracking of the target's it becomes alot more challenging... as it's sometimes hard to predict which way a player will move or how.... With those finer choices being made for you as long as you get your aim on at the start... is kinda.. pointless to me.. i really could play GTA 5 where cover and autolock gameplay was actually built for the game... Dust's butt clenching long drag out fights are gone... and to me it's lost any unique feel it's had over other FPS's it used to keep me from. I do hope it's addressed as there really isn't any reason to play DUST other then friends.
Cosgar ParagonX 7365	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:29:00 - [74] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Cosgar wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Honestly, if CCP is going in the low TTK direction, they should increase weapon ranges so that tactical and situational awareness is focused upon more than who can move randomly the longest while spraying at their enemies. Low ttk =/= twitch shooter low ttk with low range or forced cqc = twitch shooter I'm pretty sure many of us want Dust to be better than that. Better in what way? Are you suggesting that higher strafe speeds and ttk = more tactical/situational awareness needed? Personally, I don't think DUST could be treated as a serious shooter if ttk (e.g. not lone wolf focused, similar to how eve is a serious space mmo) gets increased while we have the short ranges we have now. It would turn combat into whoever can dance the most while shooting at a target, which was similar to what we had in chromosome. A scout will never be able to perform an ambush/stealth role with it's low health as long as ttk is increased. If ttk is increased to the point of a tracking shooter, ambushes and tactical play will be nerfed to where only aiming "skill" and strafing are the only defining factors in a fight, which is ridiculous and just a way for the l33t players to prevent getting outplayed tactically. In my opinion, adding range while keeping the current ttk would allow for more use of cover and increase the need to be aware of your situation before engaging. It would allow more control over situations and promote teamwork, while reducing the usefulness of simply "ramboing" targets and charging through the open to kill people (instead, having people positioned around an area to lock it down, having the ability to fire at targets moving throughout the open). Weapons would be powerful, but you would have a much higher likelihood of avoiding it altogether with some thought beforehand. Plain and simple, we have enough of this style of play on the market and they do it better than Dust ever will. This game needs to be better by being different. There's nothing tactical about Dust, there's tactics, but it was never tactical outside the one assault rifle variant. A reviewer that leaked early beta footage on YouTube (his name escapes me right now) said it best when he said Dust 514 is "a thinking man's FPS." Gauge your target, retreat if needed, flank and pincer to win fit your suit to match your playstyle. These were core principals that have been forgotten. The meta game is dead and stacking damage mods with armor plates has taken its place. This wasn't the FPS I fell in love with all those years ago. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Alpha 443-6732 211	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:32:00 - [75] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Cosgar wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Honestly, if CCP is going in the low TTK direction, they should increase weapon ranges so that tactical and situational awareness is focused upon more than who can move randomly the longest while spraying at their enemies. Low ttk =/= twitch shooter low ttk with low range or forced cqc = twitch shooter I'm pretty sure many of us want Dust to be better than that. Better in what way? Are you suggesting that higher strafe speeds and ttk = more tactical/situational awareness needed? Personally, I don't think DUST could be treated as a serious shooter if ttk (e.g. not lone wolf focused, similar to how eve is a serious space mmo) gets increased while we have the short ranges we have now. It would turn combat into whoever can dance the most while shooting at a target, which was similar to what we had in chromosome. A scout will never be able to perform an ambush/stealth role with it's low health as long as ttk is increased. If ttk is increased to the point of a tracking shooter, ambushes and tactical play will be nerfed to where only aiming "skill" and strafing are the only defining factors in a fight, which is ridiculous and just a way for the l33t players to prevent getting outplayed tactically. In my opinion, adding range while keeping the current ttk would allow for more use of cover and increase the need to be aware of your situation before engaging. It would allow more control over situations and promote teamwork, while reducing the usefulness of simply "ramboing" targets and charging through the open to kill people (instead, having people positioned around an area to lock it down, having the ability to fire at targets moving throughout the open). Weapons would be powerful, but you would have a much higher likelihood of avoiding it altogether with some thought beforehand. Plain and simple, we have enough of this style of play on the market and they do it better than Dust ever will. This game needs to be better by being different. There's nothing tactical about Dust, there's tactics, but it was never tactical outside the one assault rifle variant. A reviewer that leaked early beta footage on YouTube (his name escapes me right now) said it best when he said Dust 514 is "a thinking man's FPS." Gauge your target, retreat if needed, flank and pincer to win fit your suit to match your playstyle. These were core principals that have been forgotten. The meta game is dead and stacking damage mods with armor plates has taken its place. This wasn't the FPS I fell in love with all those years ago. What's wrong with DUST being a hybrid tracking/tactical instead of either? Wouldn't that be best? An increase to HP so that people can survive multiple bullets but the range to make cover and battlefield tactics worth the effort? AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
Cosgar ParagonX 7365	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:38:00 - [76] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: What's wrong with DUST being a hybrid tracking/tactical instead of either? Wouldn't that be best? An increase to HP so that people can survive multiple bullets but the range to make cover and battlefield tactics worth the effort? Weapons had crazy range with the sharpshooter in Chromosome. They removed it because it broke the game. I'd rather not go back to snipers that could snipe you from one reline to the other and lasers that can melt an entire team just by waving it across the map. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Alpha 443-6732 211	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:44:00 - [77] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: What's wrong with DUST being a hybrid tracking/tactical instead of either? Wouldn't that be best? An increase to HP so that people can survive multiple bullets but the range to make cover and battlefield tactics worth the effort? Weapons had crazy range with the sharpshooter in Chromosome. They removed it because it broke the game. I'd rather not go back to snipers that could snipe you from one reline to the other and lasers that can melt an entire team just by waving it across the map. Honestly, I enjoyed sharpshooter. Lasers had broken damage, not range. Snipers weren't that much of a problem if you knew how to move erratically. Sharpshooter as a skill was broken, though. Just because of a little poor execution, doesn't mean the actual idea is bad. AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
Cosgar ParagonX 7365	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:46:00 - [78] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Cosgar wrote: Alpha 443-6732 wrote: What's wrong with DUST being a hybrid tracking/tactical instead of either? Wouldn't that be best? An increase to HP so that people can survive multiple bullets but the range to make cover and battlefield tactics worth the effort? Weapons had crazy range with the sharpshooter in Chromosome. They removed it because it broke the game. I'd rather not go back to snipers that could snipe you from one reline to the other and lasers that can melt an entire team just by waving it across the map. Honestly, I enjoyed sharpshooter. Lasers had broken damage, not range. Snipers weren't that much of a problem if you knew how to move erratically. Sharpshooter as a skill was broken, though. Just because of a little poor execution, doesn't mean the actual idea is bad. Snipers could only be killed by other snipers, and the laser wasn't really changed in uprising, just the viziam. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7368	Posted - 2013.11.06 01:50:00 - [79] - Quote The fact of the matter is this isn't what Dust was advertised as. Whether you agree or not, this game was released on 5/14. You can't just change core mechanics from one thing to the next each patch. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1818	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:01:00 - [80] - Quote Cosgar wrote: It's only a fix to a fix to another fix. Look at grenades. Everyone wants to limit carrying capacity to 2, stop nanohives from restocking them... yadda, yadda, yadda. If anyone remembers, grenades were buffed in the first place because splash damage was coded on a 2D plane which negated damage if your intended target had even a pixel of elevation. Short term fix was to buff them to insane levels. Splash damage was fixed in 1.2 and now they're stupidly OP. Roll back hot fixes before simply trying to nerf or buff things. Remove the emergency 10% damage buff (and all the little ninja changes from 1.0) and reassess what needs to be fixed. Assumptions. How do you know fixing TTK isn't making an assumption that will become equally redundant in the future? How do you know this isn't a short-term fix to a deeper problem? What if, this time next year, people are asking CCP to roll back the TTK fixes because now, with better EWAR mechanics, shield bubbles and cloaking, it takes TOO long to find and kill people? "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar

Cosgar ParagonX 7370	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:05:00 - [81] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Cosgar wrote: It's only a fix to a fix to another fix. Look at grenades. Everyone wants to limit carrying capacity to 2, stop nanohives from restocking them... yadda, yadda, yadda. If anyone remembers, grenades were buffed in the first place because splash damage was coded on a 2D plane which negated damage if your intended target had even a pixel of elevation. Short term fix was to buff them to insane levels. Splash damage was fixed in 1.2 and now they're stupidly OP. Roll back hot fixes before simply trying to nerf or buff things. Remove the emergency 10% damage buff (and all the little ninja changes from 1.0) and reassess what needs to be fixed. Assumptions. How do you know fixing TTK isn't making an assumption that will become equally redundant in the future? How do you know this isn't a short-term fix to a deeper problem? What if, this time next year, people are asking CCP to roll back the TTK fixes because now, with better EWAR mechanics, shield bubbles and cloaking, it takes TOO long to find and kill people? Seen that road map CCP keeps talking about yet? They keep us in the dark because they're just playing everything by ear. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1636	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:14:00 - [82] - Quote Pull out the 10% extra damage if not 20% of damage off of everything Execpt The Nova Knives and Plasma Cannon... CEO of The Corporate Raiders, We're still recruiting... Level 1 Forum Warrior
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1819	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:14:00 - [83] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: Cosgar wrote: It's only a fix to a fix to another fix. Look at grenades. Everyone wants to limit carrying capacity to 2, stop nanohives from restocking them... yadda, yadda, yadda. If anyone remembers, grenades were buffed in the first place because splash damage was coded on a 2D plane which negated damage if your intended target had even a pixel of elevation. Short term fix was to buff them to insane levels. Splash damage was fixed in 1.2 and now they're stupidly OP. Roll back hot fixes before simply trying to nerf or buff things. Remove the emergency 10% damage buff (and all the little ninja changes from 1.0) and reassess what needs to be fixed. Assumptions. How do you know fixing TTK isn't making an assumption that will become equally redundant in the future? How do you know this isn't a short-term fix to a deeper problem? What if, this time next year, people are asking CCP to roll back the TTK fixes because now, with better EWAR mechanics, shield bubbles and cloaking, it takes TOO long to find and kill people? Seen that road map CCP keeps talking about yet? They keep us in the dark because they're just playing everything by ear. The specifics they're playing by ear, but on a grander scale (one of the things I do admire about CCP) they have their eyes on the ball. DUST can reach its potential, but if you're right and they are improvising the core mechanics as they go, then I suggest we don't get involved and make these massive generalised assumptions that sound good on paper but would simply delay the game from progressing in the future. I'm opposed to increasing TTK because I fear it will spark a discussion months down the road as to whether or not we should "bring back the 10% damage buff from Uprising that was removed in 1.7", and also because honestly I haven't seen real reasons as to why TTK should increase. I mean, people are basing TTK on the time an enemy begins shooting to the time you die, for god's sake! Is TTK not the time between your respawn, and your death? Are you not doing anything during that time to prevent yourself from dying? Essentially what this is telling me is that people are mindlessly jumping into combat, then basing all these assumptions about TTK over those few seconds, instead of broadening the scope to what they were doing when they respawned, and how much information they had about what the situation they just rocketed into. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Cosgar ParagonX 7370	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:21:00 - [84] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Cosgar wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: Cosgar wrote: It's only a fix to a fix to another fix. Look at grenades. Everyone wants to limit carrying capacity to 2, stop nanohives from restocking them... yadda, yadda, yadda. If anyone remembers, grenades were buffed in the first place because splash damage was coded on a 2D plane which negated damage if your intended target had even a pixel of elevation. Short term fix was to buff them to insane levels. Splash damage was fixed in 1.2 and now they're stupidly OP. Roll back hot fixes before simply trying to nerf or buff things. Remove the emergency 10% damage buff (and all the little ninja changes from 1.0) and reassess what needs to be fixed. Assumptions. How do you know fixing TTK isn't making an assumption that will become equally redundant in the future? How do you know this isn't a short-term fix to a deeper problem? What if, this time next year, people are asking CCP to roll back the TTK fixes because now, with better EWAR mechanics, shield bubbles and cloaking, it takes TOO long to find and kill people? Seen that road map CCP keeps talking about yet? They keep us in the dark because they're just playing everything by ear. The specifics they're playing by ear, but on a grander scale (one of the things I do admire about CCP) they have their eyes on the ball. DUST can reach its potential, but if you're right and they are improvising the core mechanics as they go, then I suggest we don't get involved and make these massive generalised assumptions that sound good on paper but would simply delay the game from progressing in the future. I'm opposed to increasing TTK because I fear it will spark a discussion months down the road as to whether or not we should "bring back the 10% damage buff from Uprising that was removed in 1.7", and also because honestly I haven't seen real reasons as to why TTK should increase. I mean, people are basing TTK on the time an enemy begins shooting to the time you die, for god's sake! Is TTK not the time between your respawn, and your death? Are you not doing anything during that time to prevent yourself from dying? Essentially what this is telling me is that people are mindlessly jumping into combat, then basing all these assumptions about TTK over those few seconds, instead of broadening the scope to what they were doing when they respawned, and how much information they had about what the situation they just rocketed into. Do anything to prevent yourself from dying? Most maps barely have any cover, strafing is all but dead, the armor buff gives suits the option to gank and tank at the same time, and it all comes down to who sees who first and how many damage mods they have stacked on their Duvolle. Everything that made this game even resemble a FPS is gone and stop pretending that this is in line with some imaginary road map. Even if it is by some mystifying chance, CCP really, really needs to get their **** together and focus on the here and now, instead of 10 years for now. Ask a sentinel if they like their bonus for a weapon that's not in the game yet and see if they like CCP's plan.. Edit: Could use Tapatalk here and now too. Phone lag causes too many typos. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1820	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:41:00 - [85] - Quote The way I see it, the only reason this topic of TTK got traction is because we've oversimplified the matter. There are so many factors, and you've listed some for me. Lack of cover, grenades, EWAR, new weapons, new equipment, new skills, armour and shields, damage modifiers, strafing, tiers. If all of this was mentioned in the OP instead of now, people would be uninterested because it's too complex for them to care about. BUT, instead, all I see is "TTK TOO SHORT" with some half-assed examples as to why. And this is what you want CCP to focus 'here and now' on? I'm arguing against you guys because your reasons are superficial. No cover? NULL cannons are cover. Rock formations. Barrels. Rooms. Dips. Trenches. Mountains. Towers. Pipes. Walls. Buildings. Structures. Doorways. I, personally, don't need CCP to label a wall with a convenient hole for shooting out of "cover" for me. If TTK lengthens, 'everything that made this game even resemble an FPS is gone'. I'm going to use that against you here, because an FPS involves tactics. It is tactical, I think we both agree. But if people can get away with pounding each other with dozens of bullets only to regenerate after hiding for a few seconds, is it going to be tactical or is it going to be front-line vs. front-line until the side with the better guns pushes through? Damage mods and Duvolles will be MORE of a problem when you increase TTK because increasing TTK lengthens gametime, and over time the DPS a prototype weapon scales and higher faster than that of an Exile AR, for example. Oh, and feel free to make as many typos as you want. This is a discussion not a spelling class. I don't make petty assumptions on another man's intelligence because they misspelled a few words. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Cosgar ParagonX 7374	Posted - 2013.11.06 03:10:00 - [86] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: The way I see it, the only reason this topic of TTK got traction is because we've oversimplified the matter. There are so many factors, and you've listed some for me. Lack of cover, grenades, EWAR, new weapons, new equipment, new skills, armour and shields, damage modifiers, strafing, tiers. If all of this was mentioned in the OP instead of now, people would be uninterested because it's too complex for them to care about. BUT, instead, all I see is "TTK TOO SHORT" with some half-assed examples as to why. And this is what you want CCP to focus 'here and now' on? I'm arguing against you guys because your reasons are superficial. No cover? NULL cannons are cover. Rock formations. Barrels. Rooms. Dips. Trenches. Mountains. Towers. Pipes. Walls. Buildings. Structures. Doorways. I, personally, don't need CCP to label a wall with a convenient hole for shooting out of "cover" for me. If TTK lengthens, 'everything that made this game even resemble an FPS is gone'. I'm going to use that against you here, because an FPS involves tactics. It is tactical, I think we both agree. But if people can get away with pounding each other with dozens of bullets only to regenerate after hiding for a few seconds, is it going to be tactical or is it going to be front-line vs. front-line until the side with the better guns pushes through? Damage mods and Duvolles will be MORE of a problem when you increase TTK because increasing TTK lengthens gametime, and over time the DPS a prototype weapon scales and higher faster than that of an Exile AR, for example. You seem to have your own bias. I'm glad the ball is in CCP's court because I doubt there would be very many people playing if you called the shots. Everyone invests their time, grinding for character growth and to improve their fit. When you invest millions of ISK over a month into your survivability, it should be more than a fraction of a second. People had issues with one suit and one rifle in earlier uprising that eliminated the need to use anything else and CCP fixed the problem, how is this any different? Also, this has been brought up since 1.4 but like everything else around here that isn't a hot topic of the month, it goes ignored. Quote: Oh, and feel free to make as many typos as you want. This is a discussion not a spelling class. I don't make petty assumptions on another man's intelligence because they misspelled a few words. Personally, I don't care what people think of my spelling except me. I make corrections because I think it obstructs whatever point I'm trying to convey at the time. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1821	Posted - 2013.11.06 03:19:00 - [87] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: The way I see it, the only reason this topic of TTK got traction is because we've oversimplified the matter. There are so many factors, and you've listed some for me. Lack of cover, grenades, EWAR, new weapons, new equipment, new skills, armour and shields, damage modifiers, strafing, tiers. If all of this was mentioned in the OP instead of now, people would be uninterested because it's too complex for them to care about. BUT, instead, all I see is "TTK TOO SHORT" with some half-assed examples as to why. And this is what you want CCP to focus 'here and now' on? I'm arguing against you guys because your reasons are superficial. No cover? NULL cannons are cover. Rock formations. Barrels. Rooms. Dips. Trenches. Mountains. Towers. Pipes. Walls. Buildings. Structures. Doorways. I, personally, don't need CCP to label a wall with a convenient hole for shooting out of "cover" for me. If TTK lengthens, 'everything that made this game even resemble an FPS is gone'. I'm going to use that against you here, because an FPS involves tactics. It is tactical, I think we both agree. But if people can get away with pounding each other with dozens of bullets only to regenerate after hiding for a few seconds, is it going to be tactical or is it going to be front-line vs. front-line until the side with the better guns pushes through? Damage mods and Duvolles will be MORE of a problem when you increase TTK because increasing TTK lengthens gametime, and over time the DPS a prototype weapon scales and higher faster than that of an Exile AR, for example. You seem to have your own bias. I'm glad the ball is in CCP's court because I doubt there would be very many people playing if you called the shots. Everyone invests their time, grinding for character growth and to improve their fit. When you invest millions of ISK over a month into your survivability, it should be more than a fraction of a second. People had issues with one suit and one rifle in earlier uprising that eliminated the need to use anything else and CCP fixed the problem, how is this any different? Also, this has been brought up since 1.4 but like everything else around here that isn't a hot topic of the month, it goes ignored. We all have our own opinions, and I am also glad I'm not in charge of this game. I invest my time because it's extremely fun to play with my corporation, to fly dropships, to be a logibro. And an interesting point: how is the CalLogi, the flaylock and the DTAR different? Because as I've been saying, this is oversimplifying the matter. We're pointing at "TTK" in general, and saying it's too low. All those previous changes, even the one to armour, had a focus! This doesn't. This is saying go change everything. You've suggested changes to grenades before, if you had mentioned and stuck to that I would've been happy to accept your premise. But removing the 10% damage buff (that was there to compensate for the loss of the 2% per level of Weaponry, which everyone would have had at level 5 in Chromosome anyway, so surely that couldn't be the problem) is a sweeping change that isn't necessary. That WILL increase TTK, sure, but what happens next? Nothing. The Duvolle stacked with damage mods still kills more than anything else, just a little slower. Relatively speaking, nothing changes. So what really are you focusing on? Where is your real argument? TTK is more abstract than modern art. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Cosgar ParagonX 7376	Posted - 2013.11.06 03:29:00 - [88] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Cosgar wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: The way I see it, the only reason this topic of TTK got traction is because we've oversimplified the matter. There are so many factors, and you've listed some for me. Lack of cover, grenades, EWAR, new weapons, new equipment, new skills, armour and shields, damage modifiers, strafing, tiers. If all of this was mentioned in the OP instead of now, people would be uninterested because it's too complex for them to care about. BUT, instead, all I see is "TTK TOO SHORT" with some half-assed examples as to why. And this is what you want CCP to focus 'here and now' on? I'm arguing against you guys because your reasons are superficial. No cover? NULL cannons are cover. Rock formations. Barrels. Rooms. Dips. Trenches. Mountains. Towers. Pipes. Walls. Buildings. Structures. Doorways. I, personally, don't need CCP to label a wall with a convenient hole for shooting out of "cover" for me. If TTK lengthens, 'everything that made this game even resemble an FPS is gone'. I'm going to use that against you here, because an FPS involves tactics. It is tactical, I think we both agree. But if people can get away with pounding each other with dozens of bullets only to regenerate after hiding for a few seconds, is it going to be tactical or is it going to be front-line vs. front-line until the side with the better guns pushes through? Damage mods and Duvolles will be MORE of a problem when you increase TTK because increasing TTK lengthens gametime, and over time the DPS a prototype weapon scales and higher faster than that of an Exile AR, for example. You seem to have your own bias. I'm glad the ball is in CCP's court because I doubt there would be very many people playing if you called the shots. Everyone invests their time, grinding for character growth and to improve their fit. When you invest millions of ISK over a month into your survivability, it should be more than a fraction of a second. People had issues with one suit and one rifle in earlier uprising that eliminated the need to use anything else and CCP fixed the problem, how is this any different? Also, this has been brought up since 1.4 but like everything else around here that isn't a hot topic of the month, it goes ignored. We all have our own opinions, and I am also glad I'm not in charge of this game. I invest my time because it's extremely fun to play with my corporation, to fly dropships, to be a logibro. But I digress. And an interesting point: how is the CalLogi, the flaylock and the DTAR different? Because as I've been saying, this is oversimplifying the matter. We're pointing at "TTK" in general, and saying it's too low. All those previous changes, even the one to armour, had a focus! This doesn't. This is saying go change everything. You've suggested changes to grenades before, if you had mentioned and stuck to that I would've been happy to accept your premise. But removing the 10% damage buff (that was there to compensate for the loss of the 2% per level of Weaponry, which everyone would have had at level 5 in Chromosome anyway, so surely that couldn't be the problem) is a sweeping change that isn't necessary. That WILL increase TTK, sure, but what happens next? Nothing. The Duvolle stacked with damage mods still kills more than anything else, just a little slower. Relatively speaking, nothing changes. So what really are you focusing on? Where is your real argument? TTK is more abstract than modern art. That 10% buff was implemented because nobody could hit anyone. Ambushes ended based on time and KB/M aiming was horrible. This change had no focus, there hasn't been anything in the patch notes specifying TTK, since 1.0. That's obviously because it's a byproduct of stacking a bunch of fixes. Stop making excuses for CCP, they've even openly said they screwed this build up several times. You can have your meat grinder twitch fest for all I care, I'm going to go play something else until they fix it in 2015 or they finally show that supposed road map. My cup of kool-aid is empty. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 276	Posted - 2013.11.06 03:37:00 - [89] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: Cosgar wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: The way I see it, the only reason this topic of TTK got traction is because we've oversimplified the matter. There are so many factors, and you've listed some for me. Lack of cover, grenades, EWAR, new weapons, new equipment, new skills, armour and shields, damage modifiers, strafing, tiers. If all of this was mentioned in the OP instead of now, people would be uninterested because it's too complex for them to care about. BUT, instead, all I see is "TTK TOO SHORT" with some half-assed examples as to why. And this is what you want CCP to focus 'here and now' on? I'm arguing against you guys because your reasons are superficial. No cover? NULL cannons are cover. Rock formations. Barrels. Rooms. Dips. Trenches. Mountains. Towers. Pipes. Walls. Buildings. Structures. Doorways. I, personally, don't need CCP to label a wall with a convenient hole for shooting out of "cover" for me. If TTK lengthens, 'everything that made this game even resemble an FPS is gone'. I'm going to use that against you here, because an FPS involves tactics. It is tactical, I think we both agree. But if people can get away with pounding each other with dozens of bullets only to regenerate after hiding for a few seconds, is it going to be tactical or is it going to be front-line vs. front-line until the side with the better guns pushes through? Damage mods and Duvolles will be MORE of a problem when you increase TTK because increasing TTK lengthens gametime, and over time the DPS a prototype weapon scales and higher faster than that of an Exile AR, for example. You seem to have your own bias. I'm glad the ball is in CCP's court because I doubt there would be very many people playing if you called the shots. Everyone invests their time, grinding for character growth and to improve their fit. When you invest millions of ISK over a month into your survivability, it should be more than a fraction of a second. People had issues with one suit and one rifle in earlier uprising that eliminated the need to use anything else and CCP fixed the problem, how is this any different? Also, this has been brought up since 1.4 but like everything else around here that isn't a hot topic of the month, it goes ignored. We all have our own opinions, and I am also glad I'm not in charge of this game. I invest my time because it's extremely fun to play with my corporation, to fly dropships, to be a logibro. But I digress. And an interesting point: how is the CalLogi, the flaylock and the DTAR different? Because as I've been saying, this is oversimplifying the matter. We're pointing at "TTK" in general, and saying it's too low. All those previous changes, even the one to armour, had a focus! This doesn't. This is saying go change everything. You've suggested changes to grenades before, if you had mentioned and stuck to that I would've been happy to accept your premise. But removing the 10% damage buff (that was there to compensate for the loss of the 2% per level of Weaponry, which everyone would have had at level 5 in Chromosome anyway, so surely that couldn't be the problem) is a sweeping change that isn't necessary. That WILL increase TTK, sure, but what happens next? Nothing. The Duvolle stacked with damage mods still kills more than anything else, just a little slower. Relatively speaking, nothing changes. So what really are you focusing on? Where is your real argument? TTK is more abstract than modern art. That 10% buff was implemented because nobody could hit anyone. Ambushes ended based on time and KB/M aiming was horrible. This change had no focus, there hasn't been anything in the patch notes specifying TTK, since 1.0. That's obviously because it's a byproduct of stacking a bunch of fixes. Stop making excuses for CCP, they've even openly said they screwed this build up several times. You can have your meat grinder twitch fest for all I care, I'm going to go play something else until they fix it in 2015 or they finally show that supposed road map. My cup of kool-aid is empty. 10% damage didnt come out of thin air.... bangs head against desk Weaponry was a skill that did something 2% damage to all weapons per level... Everyone had level 5 and 10% damage...passively. It was a skill everyone got and gladly... now level 2 and 4 exist purely to **** people off. a skill point sink skill as a MUST for certain classes starting off.. lame 10% is no culprit or fix to anything. specially when we already had that damage in chromosome, with proto suits having 400-500 health and that considered godly amounts.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1821	Posted - 2013.11.06 03:45:00 - [90] - Quote Cosgar wrote: That 10% buff was implemented because nobody could hit anyone. Ambushes ended based on time and KB/M aiming was horrible. This change had no focus, there hasn't been anything in the patch notes specifying TTK, since 1.0. That's obviously because it's a byproduct of stacking a bunch of fixes. Stop making excuses for CCP, they've even openly said they screwed this build up several times. You can have your meat grinder twitch fest for all I care, I'm going to go play something else until they fix it in 2015 or they finally show that supposed road map. My cup of kool-aid is empty. I'm as disenchanted as you, or else I wouldn't be arguing. I don't make excuses for CCP in any other thread requesting change except here, not because my kool-aid cup has a drop more than yours, but because I personally believe this won't work. I've listed my reasons, you've listed yours. If you still believe you're right, I will still believe you're wrong. In the end one of us will have the greater influence over CCP, and it'll probably be you because the community appears to be all for higher TTK. I'll be here to watch it all pan out anyway, and I sincerely hope I won't have to think "I told them." "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar



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