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Cosgar
ParagonX
7378
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Posted - 2013.11.06 03:51:00 -
[91] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Cosgar wrote:Vyzion Eyri wrote:Cosgar wrote:Vyzion Eyri wrote:The way I see it, the only reason this topic of TTK got traction is because we've oversimplified the matter. There are so many factors, and you've listed some for me. Lack of cover, grenades, EWAR, new weapons, new equipment, new skills, armour and shields, damage modifiers, strafing, tiers.
If all of this was mentioned in the OP instead of now, people would be uninterested because it's too complex for them to care about. BUT, instead, all I see is "TTK TOO SHORT" with some half-assed examples as to why. And this is what you want CCP to focus 'here and now' on?
I'm arguing against you guys because your reasons are superficial.
No cover? NULL cannons are cover. Rock formations. Barrels. Rooms. Dips. Trenches. Mountains. Towers. Pipes. Walls. Buildings. Structures. Doorways. I, personally, don't need CCP to label a wall with a convenient hole for shooting out of "cover" for me.
If TTK lengthens, 'everything that made this game even resemble an FPS is gone'. I'm going to use that against you here, because an FPS involves tactics. It is tactical, I think we both agree. But if people can get away with pounding each other with dozens of bullets only to regenerate after hiding for a few seconds, is it going to be tactical or is it going to be front-line vs. front-line until the side with the better guns pushes through? Damage mods and Duvolles will be MORE of a problem when you increase TTK because increasing TTK lengthens gametime, and over time the DPS a prototype weapon scales and higher faster than that of an Exile AR, for example. You seem to have your own bias. I'm glad the ball is in CCP's court because I doubt there would be very many people playing if you called the shots. Everyone invests their time, grinding for character growth and to improve their fit. When you invest millions of ISK over a month into your survivability, it should be more than a fraction of a second. People had issues with one suit and one rifle in earlier uprising that eliminated the need to use anything else and CCP fixed the problem, how is this any different? Also, this has been brought up since 1.4 but like everything else around here that isn't a hot topic of the month, it goes ignored. We all have our own opinions, and I am also glad I'm not in charge of this game. I invest my time because it's extremely fun to play with my corporation, to fly dropships, to be a logibro. But I digress. And an interesting point: how is the CalLogi, the flaylock and the DTAR different? Because as I've been saying, this is oversimplifying the matter. We're pointing at "TTK" in general, and saying it's too low. All those previous changes, even the one to armour, had a focus! This doesn't. This is saying go change everything. You've suggested changes to grenades before, if you had mentioned and stuck to that I would've been happy to accept your premise. But removing the 10% damage buff (that was there to compensate for the loss of the 2% per level of Weaponry, which everyone would have had at level 5 in Chromosome anyway, so surely that couldn't be the problem) is a sweeping change that isn't necessary. That WILL increase TTK, sure, but what happens next? Nothing. The Duvolle stacked with damage mods still kills more than anything else, just a little slower. Relatively speaking, nothing changes. So what really are you focusing on? Where is your real argument? TTK is more abstract than modern art. That 10% buff was implemented because nobody could hit anyone. Ambushes ended based on time and KB/M aiming was horrible. This change had no focus, there hasn't been anything in the patch notes specifying TTK, since 1.0. That's obviously because it's a byproduct of stacking a bunch of fixes. Stop making excuses for CCP, they've even openly said they screwed this build up several times. You can have your meat grinder twitch fest for all I care, I'm going to go play something else until they fix it in 2015 or they finally show that supposed road map. My cup of kool-aid is empty. 10% damage didnt come out of thin air.... *bangs head against desk* Weaponry was a skill that did something 2% damage to all weapons per level... Everyone had level 5 and 10% damage...passively. It was a skill everyone got and gladly... now level 2 and 4 exist purely to **** people off. a skill point sink skill as a MUST for certain classes starting off.. lame 10% is no culprit or fix to anything. specially when we already had that damage in chromosome, with proto suits having 400-500 health and that considered godly amounts. If that were the case, they would have given the -2% scanning profile back to the dropsuit command skill. Hell, the damn weaponry skill would say +2% damage per level but it doesn't. You're comparing an older build to a newer one.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Cosgar
ParagonX
7378
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Posted - 2013.11.06 03:54:00 -
[92] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:Cosgar wrote: That 10% buff was implemented because nobody could hit anyone. Ambushes ended based on time and KB/M aiming was horrible. This change had no focus, there hasn't been anything in the patch notes specifying TTK, since 1.0. That's obviously because it's a byproduct of stacking a bunch of fixes.
Stop making excuses for CCP, they've even openly said they screwed this build up several times. You can have your meat grinder twitch fest for all I care, I'm going to go play something else until they fix it in 2015 or they finally show that supposed road map. My cup of kool-aid is empty.
I'm as disenchanted as you, or else I wouldn't be arguing. I don't make excuses for CCP in any other thread requesting change except here, not because my kool-aid cup has a drop more than yours, but because I personally believe this won't work. I've listed my reasons, you've listed yours. If you still believe you're right, I will still believe you're wrong. In the end one of us will have the greater influence over CCP, and it'll probably be you because the community appears to be all for higher TTK. I'll be here to watch it all pan out anyway, and I sincerely hope I won't have to think "I told them." I said my peace across multiple pages. I'm just one guy that plays the game. It's up to the CPM and CCP to take the next step. Arguing on here doesn't make a difference unless I'm crying about mass drivers or flaylock pistols.
I should probably thank CCP for making these blunders. It reminds me that I shouldn't get so invested in this game when they still can't figure out what the hell it's supposed to be after a year of beta. Maybe I'll take this time to finish Dark Souls.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Himiko Kuronaga
The Generals EoN.
2159
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Posted - 2013.11.06 04:48:00 -
[93] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Vyzion Eyri wrote:Cosgar wrote: That 10% buff was implemented because nobody could hit anyone. Ambushes ended based on time and KB/M aiming was horrible. This change had no focus, there hasn't been anything in the patch notes specifying TTK, since 1.0. That's obviously because it's a byproduct of stacking a bunch of fixes.
Stop making excuses for CCP, they've even openly said they screwed this build up several times. You can have your meat grinder twitch fest for all I care, I'm going to go play something else until they fix it in 2015 or they finally show that supposed road map. My cup of kool-aid is empty.
I'm as disenchanted as you, or else I wouldn't be arguing. I don't make excuses for CCP in any other thread requesting change except here, not because my kool-aid cup has a drop more than yours, but because I personally believe this won't work. I've listed my reasons, you've listed yours. If you still believe you're right, I will still believe you're wrong. In the end one of us will have the greater influence over CCP, and it'll probably be you because the community appears to be all for higher TTK. I'll be here to watch it all pan out anyway, and I sincerely hope I won't have to think "I told them." I said my peace across multiple pages. I'm just one guy that plays the game. It's up to the CPM and CCP to take the next step. Arguing on here doesn't make a difference unless I'm crying about mass drivers or flaylock pistols. I should probably thank CCP for making these blunders. It reminds me that I shouldn't get so invested in this game when they still can't figure out what the hell it's supposed to be after a year of beta. Maybe I'll take this time to finish Dark Souls.
You haven't already? That is a mortal sin. |
Alpha 443-6732
211
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Posted - 2013.11.06 05:20:00 -
[94] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Vyzion Eyri wrote:Cosgar wrote: That 10% buff was implemented because nobody could hit anyone. Ambushes ended based on time and KB/M aiming was horrible. This change had no focus, there hasn't been anything in the patch notes specifying TTK, since 1.0. That's obviously because it's a byproduct of stacking a bunch of fixes.
Stop making excuses for CCP, they've even openly said they screwed this build up several times. You can have your meat grinder twitch fest for all I care, I'm going to go play something else until they fix it in 2015 or they finally show that supposed road map. My cup of kool-aid is empty.
I'm as disenchanted as you, or else I wouldn't be arguing. I don't make excuses for CCP in any other thread requesting change except here, not because my kool-aid cup has a drop more than yours, but because I personally believe this won't work. I've listed my reasons, you've listed yours. If you still believe you're right, I will still believe you're wrong. In the end one of us will have the greater influence over CCP, and it'll probably be you because the community appears to be all for higher TTK. I'll be here to watch it all pan out anyway, and I sincerely hope I won't have to think "I told them." I said my peace across multiple pages. I'm just one guy that plays the game. It's up to the CPM and CCP to take the next step. Arguing on here doesn't make a difference unless I'm crying about mass drivers or flaylock pistols. I should probably thank CCP for making these blunders. It reminds me that I shouldn't get so invested in this game when they still can't figure out what the hell it's supposed to be after a year of beta. Maybe I'll take this time to finish Dark Souls.
Don't listen to what people say about the dark ending. Also, when they say Artorias walked the Abyss and saved Oolacile, it was really you who did it. Also, Gwynevere is an illusion, try attacking her.
AV =/= Completely dominate and render vehicles useless. AV = Counterpart of vehicles that combats vehicles.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2984
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Posted - 2013.11.06 05:30:00 -
[95] - Quote
Dark Souls 2 is shaping up pretty well too I think. I played in the network test. |
Himiko Kuronaga
The Generals EoN.
2160
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 05:34:00 -
[96] - Quote
Alpha 443-6732 wrote:Cosgar wrote:Vyzion Eyri wrote:Cosgar wrote: That 10% buff was implemented because nobody could hit anyone. Ambushes ended based on time and KB/M aiming was horrible. This change had no focus, there hasn't been anything in the patch notes specifying TTK, since 1.0. That's obviously because it's a byproduct of stacking a bunch of fixes.
Stop making excuses for CCP, they've even openly said they screwed this build up several times. You can have your meat grinder twitch fest for all I care, I'm going to go play something else until they fix it in 2015 or they finally show that supposed road map. My cup of kool-aid is empty.
I'm as disenchanted as you, or else I wouldn't be arguing. I don't make excuses for CCP in any other thread requesting change except here, not because my kool-aid cup has a drop more than yours, but because I personally believe this won't work. I've listed my reasons, you've listed yours. If you still believe you're right, I will still believe you're wrong. In the end one of us will have the greater influence over CCP, and it'll probably be you because the community appears to be all for higher TTK. I'll be here to watch it all pan out anyway, and I sincerely hope I won't have to think "I told them." I said my peace across multiple pages. I'm just one guy that plays the game. It's up to the CPM and CCP to take the next step. Arguing on here doesn't make a difference unless I'm crying about mass drivers or flaylock pistols. I should probably thank CCP for making these blunders. It reminds me that I shouldn't get so invested in this game when they still can't figure out what the hell it's supposed to be after a year of beta. Maybe I'll take this time to finish Dark Souls. Don't listen to what people say about the dark ending. Also, when they say Artorias walked the Abyss and saved Oolacile, it was really you who did it. Also, Gwynevere is an illusion, try attacking her.
You're a bad person.
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Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
2615
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 05:42:00 -
[97] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Cosgar wrote:ReGnYuM wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Now I'm not complaining exactly. The hit detection right now is behaving like holy jesus.
But it really is making me realize just how much this games HP and damage values were balanced around the fact that a gigantic portion of incoming fire was guaranteed to miss due to shoddy hit detection.
Now that it.... isn't missing. I don't know. I really don't know what to say. I mean it feels cleaner and better and more rewarding of player skill, but it also feels kind of... twitch. Which I can dig, but I'm not sure that I'm... supposed to?
I...ah, I dunno. This is weird.
Am I the only one feeling this? Between the aim assist being recently upgrading to god tier, and now a lot more of the incoming fire actually hitting... should the HP values get raised across the board? Or just, hell... just roll with it? buff strafe speed! The world must be upside down if I'm agreeing with ReGnYuM +1 (I feel dirty now...) I have a suspicion that changes to strafe speed, scout speed, etc. over the course of post-uprising updates have been made because they couldn't get hit detection to work properly in their engine at those speeds. If that's the case, then we might be stuck with the current speeds until they can "improve the engine/rendering/whatever".
I can confirm that slowing down the movement speed was a deliberate decision based on CCP's idea of acceptable technical compromises since last year. Pretty graphics > fun shooter amiright?
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Himiko Kuronaga
The Generals EoN.
2160
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 05:49:00 -
[98] - Quote
You don't need a super fast strafe to make it a functional tracking shooter. Halo by no means has a fast strafe.
You simply need responsive aiming, clear hitboxes, natural acceleration and deceleration on actions like directional movement while jumping, a generous amount of HP and a balance between rate of fire and range.
The balance being, a high rate of fire means crap range, unless counter-balanced by something like super slow movement speed. This gives every missed shot more meaning during a fight, and rewards the cunning of someone capable of getting up close with less error per missed shot with a high RoF weapon.
Right now the AR, and several weapons like it, have a good RoF, good damage, and good range.
If it's going to be a decent tracking shooter, there have to be some fundamental changes to the way damage is dished out.
If all we do is increase strafe speed, it can easily get to the point where the movement is just too fast for regular people to hit anybody. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
2615
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 07:12:00 -
[99] - Quote
You never return my calls anymore... |
Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
913
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Posted - 2013.11.06 07:20:00 -
[100] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Now I'm not complaining exactly. The hit detection right now is behaving like holy jesus.
But it really is making me realize just how much this games HP and damage values were balanced around the fact that a gigantic portion of incoming fire was guaranteed to miss due to shoddy hit detection.
Now that it.... isn't missing. I don't know. I really don't know what to say. I mean it feels cleaner and better and more rewarding of player skill, but it also feels kind of... twitch. Which I can dig, but I'm not sure that I'm... supposed to?
I...ah, I dunno. This is weird.
Am I the only one feeling this? Between the aim assist being recently upgrading to god tier, and now a lot more of the incoming fire actually hitting... should the HP values get raised across the board? Or just, hell... just roll with it?
I feel the same way. I've died to so many Scrambler Rifles due to their insane DPS, Charge Shots and good range that I might pick one up. I swear, I die faster to Scrambler Rifles in the front of Laser optimal range than I can drop them. I'll be at 65m, they'll run forward 5m in 1 second, now they're only 10m out of optimal and I die almost instantaneously. I've died to several Scrambler Rifles this way 1 vs 1 at 60m today. I usually get their shields down, then I drop.
Of course, I use crappy gear, so that plays a big part in it, too.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Draco Cerberus
Hell's Gate Inc
473
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Posted - 2013.11.06 08:06:00 -
[101] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Now I'm not complaining exactly. The hit detection right now is behaving like holy jesus.
But it really is making me realize just how much this games HP and damage values were balanced around the fact that a gigantic portion of incoming fire was guaranteed to miss due to shoddy hit detection.
Now that it.... isn't missing. I don't know. I really don't know what to say. I mean it feels cleaner and better and more rewarding of player skill, but it also feels kind of... twitch. Which I can dig, but I'm not sure that I'm... supposed to?
I...ah, I dunno. This is weird.
Am I the only one feeling this? Between the aim assist being recently upgrading to god tier, and now a lot more of the incoming fire actually hitting... should the HP values get raised across the board? Or just, hell... just roll with it? Seems balanced, don't we all die equally well now? On a plus side it means you should be able to refill your ammo by dying fairly regular and if you improve your targeting you will get more kills.
As to the more HP across the board I think it would be a positive change but at most 50-75 HP across the board, no big numbers, you should still be able to kill people (without a grenade or RE).
One Universe...
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hgghyujh
Expert Intervention Caldari State
159
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Posted - 2013.11.06 09:18:00 -
[102] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Now I'm not complaining exactly. The hit detection right now is behaving like holy jesus.
But it really is making me realize just how much this games HP and damage values were balanced around the fact that a gigantic portion of incoming fire was guaranteed to miss due to shoddy hit detection.
Now that it.... isn't missing. I don't know. I really don't know what to say. I mean it feels cleaner and better and more rewarding of player skill, but it also feels kind of... twitch. Which I can dig, but I'm not sure that I'm... supposed to?
I...ah, I dunno. This is weird.
Am I the only one feeling this? Between the aim assist being recently upgrading to god tier, and now a lot more of the incoming fire actually hitting... should the HP values get raised across the board? Or just, hell... just roll with it?
no you are exactly right. I mean this has been a problem for a long time among the pro players(most didn't care tho), but now its really kinda game breaking for anything that isnt tank or damage. |
Blake Kingston
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
141
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Posted - 2013.11.06 09:40:00 -
[103] - Quote
If it's meant to be a high tracking HP game, I'd agree it isn't right now. |
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