DUST Search - This game does NOT feel like a high HP tracking shooter right now...

Cosgar wrote:

Vyzion Eyri wrote:

The way I see it, the only reason this topic of TTK got traction is because we've oversimplified the matter. There are so many factors, and you've listed some for me. Lack of cover, grenades, EWAR, new weapons, new equipment, new skills, armour and shields, damage modifiers, strafing, tiers.

If all of this was mentioned in the OP instead of now, people would be uninterested because it's too complex for them to care about. BUT, instead, all I see is "TTK TOO SHORT" with some half-assed examples as to why. And this is what you want CCP to focus 'here and now' on?

I'm arguing against you guys because your reasons are superficial.

No cover? NULL cannons are cover. Rock formations. Barrels. Rooms. Dips. Trenches. Mountains. Towers. Pipes. Walls. Buildings. Structures. Doorways. I, personally, don't need CCP to label a wall with a convenient hole for shooting out of "cover" for me.

If TTK lengthens, 'everything that made this game even resemble an FPS is gone'. I'm going to use that against you here, because an FPS involves tactics. It is tactical, I think we both agree. But if people can get away with pounding each other with dozens of bullets only to regenerate after hiding for a few seconds, is it going to be tactical or is it going to be front-line vs. front-line until the side with the better guns pushes through? Damage mods and Duvolles will be MORE of a problem when you increase TTK because increasing TTK lengthens gametime, and over time the DPS a prototype weapon scales and higher faster than that of an Exile AR, for example.

You seem to have your own bias. I'm glad the ball is in CCP's court because I doubt there would be very many people playing if you called the shots. Everyone invests their time, grinding for character growth and to improve their fit. When you invest millions of ISK over a month into your survivability, it should be more than a fraction of a second. People had issues with one suit and one rifle in earlier uprising that eliminated the need to use anything else and CCP fixed the problem, how is this any different? Also, this has been brought up since 1.4 but like everything else around here that isn't a hot topic of the month, it goes ignored.

"..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed."


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Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1818	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:01:00 - [1] - Quote Cosgar wrote: It's only a fix to a fix to another fix. Look at grenades. Everyone wants to limit carrying capacity to 2, stop nanohives from restocking them... yadda, yadda, yadda. If anyone remembers, grenades were buffed in the first place because splash damage was coded on a 2D plane which negated damage if your intended target had even a pixel of elevation. Short term fix was to buff them to insane levels. Splash damage was fixed in 1.2 and now they're stupidly OP. Roll back hot fixes before simply trying to nerf or buff things. Remove the emergency 10% damage buff (and all the little ninja changes from 1.0) and reassess what needs to be fixed. Assumptions. How do you know fixing TTK isn't making an assumption that will become equally redundant in the future? How do you know this isn't a short-term fix to a deeper problem? What if, this time next year, people are asking CCP to roll back the TTK fixes because now, with better EWAR mechanics, shield bubbles and cloaking, it takes TOO long to find and kill people? "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1819	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:14:00 - [2] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: Cosgar wrote: It's only a fix to a fix to another fix. Look at grenades. Everyone wants to limit carrying capacity to 2, stop nanohives from restocking them... yadda, yadda, yadda. If anyone remembers, grenades were buffed in the first place because splash damage was coded on a 2D plane which negated damage if your intended target had even a pixel of elevation. Short term fix was to buff them to insane levels. Splash damage was fixed in 1.2 and now they're stupidly OP. Roll back hot fixes before simply trying to nerf or buff things. Remove the emergency 10% damage buff (and all the little ninja changes from 1.0) and reassess what needs to be fixed. Assumptions. How do you know fixing TTK isn't making an assumption that will become equally redundant in the future? How do you know this isn't a short-term fix to a deeper problem? What if, this time next year, people are asking CCP to roll back the TTK fixes because now, with better EWAR mechanics, shield bubbles and cloaking, it takes TOO long to find and kill people? Seen that road map CCP keeps talking about yet? They keep us in the dark because they're just playing everything by ear. The specifics they're playing by ear, but on a grander scale (one of the things I do admire about CCP) they have their eyes on the ball. DUST can reach its potential, but if you're right and they are improvising the core mechanics as they go, then I suggest we don't get involved and make these massive generalised assumptions that sound good on paper but would simply delay the game from progressing in the future. I'm opposed to increasing TTK because I fear it will spark a discussion months down the road as to whether or not we should "bring back the 10% damage buff from Uprising that was removed in 1.7", and also because honestly I haven't seen real reasons as to why TTK should increase. I mean, people are basing TTK on the time an enemy begins shooting to the time you die, for god's sake! Is TTK not the time between your respawn, and your death? Are you not doing anything during that time to prevent yourself from dying? Essentially what this is telling me is that people are mindlessly jumping into combat, then basing all these assumptions about TTK over those few seconds, instead of broadening the scope to what they were doing when they respawned, and how much information they had about what the situation they just rocketed into. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1820	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:41:00 - [3] - Quote The way I see it, the only reason this topic of TTK got traction is because we've oversimplified the matter. There are so many factors, and you've listed some for me. Lack of cover, grenades, EWAR, new weapons, new equipment, new skills, armour and shields, damage modifiers, strafing, tiers. If all of this was mentioned in the OP instead of now, people would be uninterested because it's too complex for them to care about. BUT, instead, all I see is "TTK TOO SHORT" with some half-assed examples as to why. And this is what you want CCP to focus 'here and now' on? I'm arguing against you guys because your reasons are superficial. No cover? NULL cannons are cover. Rock formations. Barrels. Rooms. Dips. Trenches. Mountains. Towers. Pipes. Walls. Buildings. Structures. Doorways. I, personally, don't need CCP to label a wall with a convenient hole for shooting out of "cover" for me. If TTK lengthens, 'everything that made this game even resemble an FPS is gone'. I'm going to use that against you here, because an FPS involves tactics. It is tactical, I think we both agree. But if people can get away with pounding each other with dozens of bullets only to regenerate after hiding for a few seconds, is it going to be tactical or is it going to be front-line vs. front-line until the side with the better guns pushes through? Damage mods and Duvolles will be MORE of a problem when you increase TTK because increasing TTK lengthens gametime, and over time the DPS a prototype weapon scales and higher faster than that of an Exile AR, for example. Oh, and feel free to make as many typos as you want. This is a discussion not a spelling class. I don't make petty assumptions on another man's intelligence because they misspelled a few words. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1821	Posted - 2013.11.06 03:19:00 - [4] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: The way I see it, the only reason this topic of TTK got traction is because we've oversimplified the matter. There are so many factors, and you've listed some for me. Lack of cover, grenades, EWAR, new weapons, new equipment, new skills, armour and shields, damage modifiers, strafing, tiers. If all of this was mentioned in the OP instead of now, people would be uninterested because it's too complex for them to care about. BUT, instead, all I see is "TTK TOO SHORT" with some half-assed examples as to why. And this is what you want CCP to focus 'here and now' on? I'm arguing against you guys because your reasons are superficial. No cover? NULL cannons are cover. Rock formations. Barrels. Rooms. Dips. Trenches. Mountains. Towers. Pipes. Walls. Buildings. Structures. Doorways. I, personally, don't need CCP to label a wall with a convenient hole for shooting out of "cover" for me. If TTK lengthens, 'everything that made this game even resemble an FPS is gone'. I'm going to use that against you here, because an FPS involves tactics. It is tactical, I think we both agree. But if people can get away with pounding each other with dozens of bullets only to regenerate after hiding for a few seconds, is it going to be tactical or is it going to be front-line vs. front-line until the side with the better guns pushes through? Damage mods and Duvolles will be MORE of a problem when you increase TTK because increasing TTK lengthens gametime, and over time the DPS a prototype weapon scales and higher faster than that of an Exile AR, for example. You seem to have your own bias. I'm glad the ball is in CCP's court because I doubt there would be very many people playing if you called the shots. Everyone invests their time, grinding for character growth and to improve their fit. When you invest millions of ISK over a month into your survivability, it should be more than a fraction of a second. People had issues with one suit and one rifle in earlier uprising that eliminated the need to use anything else and CCP fixed the problem, how is this any different? Also, this has been brought up since 1.4 but like everything else around here that isn't a hot topic of the month, it goes ignored. We all have our own opinions, and I am also glad I'm not in charge of this game. I invest my time because it's extremely fun to play with my corporation, to fly dropships, to be a logibro. And an interesting point: how is the CalLogi, the flaylock and the DTAR different? Because as I've been saying, this is oversimplifying the matter. We're pointing at "TTK" in general, and saying it's too low. All those previous changes, even the one to armour, had a focus! This doesn't. This is saying go change everything. You've suggested changes to grenades before, if you had mentioned and stuck to that I would've been happy to accept your premise. But removing the 10% damage buff (that was there to compensate for the loss of the 2% per level of Weaponry, which everyone would have had at level 5 in Chromosome anyway, so surely that couldn't be the problem) is a sweeping change that isn't necessary. That WILL increase TTK, sure, but what happens next? Nothing. The Duvolle stacked with damage mods still kills more than anything else, just a little slower. Relatively speaking, nothing changes. So what really are you focusing on? Where is your real argument? TTK is more abstract than modern art. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1821	Posted - 2013.11.06 03:45:00 - [5] - Quote Cosgar wrote: That 10% buff was implemented because nobody could hit anyone. Ambushes ended based on time and KB/M aiming was horrible. This change had no focus, there hasn't been anything in the patch notes specifying TTK, since 1.0. That's obviously because it's a byproduct of stacking a bunch of fixes. Stop making excuses for CCP, they've even openly said they screwed this build up several times. You can have your meat grinder twitch fest for all I care, I'm going to go play something else until they fix it in 2015 or they finally show that supposed road map. My cup of kool-aid is empty. I'm as disenchanted as you, or else I wouldn't be arguing. I don't make excuses for CCP in any other thread requesting change except here, not because my kool-aid cup has a drop more than yours, but because I personally believe this won't work. I've listed my reasons, you've listed yours. If you still believe you're right, I will still believe you're wrong. In the end one of us will have the greater influence over CCP, and it'll probably be you because the community appears to be all for higher TTK. I'll be here to watch it all pan out anyway, and I sincerely hope I won't have to think "I told them." "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar