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Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2843	Posted - 2013.09.13 02:21:00 - [1] - Quote I hear a lot of talk about recoil and dispersion but inevitably I always answer it the same way: Recoil does not make the Assault Rifle overpowered. Any weapon is going to be accurate as the dickens when aiming down the sights and when you implement "dispersion" in a hit scan based system, it's almost entirely cosmetic and ultimately arbitrary. You're not firing rounds, you're firing a vector that intersects with another line and inevitably stops. This is not Battlefield 3, there are no bullet physics. Dispersion is entirely client based and you can readily see this just based on observation, and it applies with almost all first person shooters - save those that have extensive game design around bullet physics like Battlefield 3 and the Sniper franchise. A good example of this is the "headshot glitch" in which they are able to fire at you because the rounds come from their camera, which is located in their head and not the weapon. Recoil, on the other hand, is slightly more prominent. It usually doesn't kick in until you're about halfway through the magazine but either way you should be firing in bursts anyway and even if the recoil is ten times that of any other weapon you can manage it just by firing in smaller bursts. Tapping the R1 button reduces the recoil so significantly that a thread regarding the phenomenon actually made it on the "feedback/discussions weekly report" that CCP does, and it was functioning as intended. Because it is. All games do this. The reason this is important information is because inevitably it falls back on the fact that it's a vector and there's no way to simulate dispersion without the dreaded "random bullet spread" effect. When you fire at a wall, you see the rounds impact in multiple areas - whereas another player will see the rounds land in a single location. Now, I could go on and talk about all the game mechanics for hours but inevitably what's important is the disparity between the Assault Rifle and the Scrambler Rifle/Assault Scrambler Rifle. The design philosophy is that the Assault Rifle is meant for high damage, low range engagements - a stark contrast to, say, the Rail Rifle which is the exact opposite. The Scrambler Rifle is intended to come in at a close second in terms of range engagement. If you compare the Assault Rifle and Scrambler Rifle variants, you'll notice that this is -mostly- true as the Assault Scrambler Rifle does have a higher effective range while retaining a similar optimal range, as indicated here: http://i.imgur.com/krRr5EZ.png The issue, however, is that both have roughly the same DPS. One has higher damage with lower fire rate, the other has lower damage with higher fire rate. If the Assault Rifle is intended to be a high damage weapon with low range, inevitably it falls back on how it compares to the Assault Scrambler Rifle's range. If both have the same DPS (which, they do) than the range is a buff against the Assault Rifle. I've honestly been curious as to why the Assault Scrambler Rifle hasn't been used more frequently as it's a fierce weapon to compete against on the field even with Assault Rifle Proficiency 4, but I digress. The Assault Rifle does not need a Recoil/Dispersion nerf. Range doesn't mean anything if you're not accurate enough to engage at those ranges and taking away from this will increase the disparity in a negative way. On the other hand, you can reduce the optimal range slighty (at the most by 10 meters) so that the range scales accordingly, but even then this is too much of a difference as the Assault Scrambler Rifle isn't intended to have the highest range. With which, you have to be careful how you proceed. Reason being? If you reduce the range on the Assault Rifle, all of a sudden the Assault Scrambler Rifle is a much better alternative due to it's similar DPS output, negligible overheat mechanic and better performance at range. If you reduce the range on the Assault Rifle, you have to reduce the damage on the Assault Scrambler Rifle, otherwise there isn't enough diversity in the play style to matter - one is obviously better than the other. Almost all of the issues presented, like Recoil/Dispersion, is entirely circumstantial. Sure, it does really good headshot damage but considering that the Scrambler Pistol does 400% of it's normal damage on a headshot, you can't use it as a legitimate argument because there are weapons that out perform the Assault Rifle for that reason.
Heimdallr69 TeamPlayers EoN. 787	Posted - 2013.09.13 02:42:00 - [2] - Quote Ar is better than scr this is just pathetic lmfao ar range is wayyy to much for its purpose its supposed to have the range of like the breach short range high dmg
Beck Weathers High-Damage 55	Posted - 2013.09.13 02:46:00 - [3] - Quote ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2844	Posted - 2013.09.13 03:33:00 - [4] - Quote Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1486	Posted - 2013.09.13 03:36:00 - [5] - Quote This might be a problem we're approaching in the wrong fashion. Direct nerfs/buffs to any weapon might just make the problem worse. Every weapon needs a militia variant. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, as who the hell is going to dump 50k sp just to try out a new weapon when they're first starting? they're going to use weapons they can try for free, and due to inertia they'll likely stick with that weapon for quite some time. It might also be a good idea to raise the AR's fitting costs. It might not seem like much but it would make Ar users have to use lower level mods making them weaker as a whole instead of the juggernauts they are. It seems odd to me that the weapon with the highest DPS also has some of the lowest fitting costs. better all around performance should mean higher all around fitting costs.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1486	Posted - 2013.09.13 03:49:00 - [6] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I have 0 points into ARs, so my main experience is using the 'Exile' on various shitfits, but the AR has noticeably better recoil. Which is rather odd considering that the ASCR shoots light... The higher base damage does make up for it slightly, but the AR's ability to put all of it's dps right on target gives it a bit of an edge.
Magnus Amadeuss DUST University Ivy League 42	Posted - 2013.09.13 03:50:00 - [7] - Quote I can use both proto ARs and proto ScRs, and I can tell you without a doubt that the AR is the superior weapon. The AScR is a joke compared to the AR, as the kick and muzzle flash severely impacts accuracy, and with having trained only 1 level in AR sharpshooter skill (i.e. not much difference from stock) that the grouping on the AR is incredibly tighter. This difference only gets magnified the farther you go, and as such the AScR is near unusable past 50 m without constant trigger feathering. The AR remains accurate out to 80m no problem. Sure, DPS of both weapons would be a good bit too much given their ranges, that is assuming that they both performed the same at range. This is of course a false assumption. If you want to be deadly with the AScR you need to be closer.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 717	Posted - 2013.09.13 03:56:00 - [8] - Quote nerf the ar into the hall of tanks and flaylocks.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 902	Posted - 2013.09.13 08:52:00 - [9] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I use both Aeon. Both AR and SCR and maxed out for me. The Assault Scrambler when used in ADS, has instant dispersion. You can see it through the projectile and bullet impact animation (if that even relates to the actual vectors). I'm not as accurate with the Assault Scrambler at long range, as I am with the AR; before 1.4 part of the reason for this was the muzzle flash. Using the ASCR in ADS had a blinding muzzle flash, which incrementally damaged your ability to track targets at range. It was very subtle but it was there. But now during 1.4, the muzzle flash was toned down slightly, and I'm still having trouble tracking guys at range with the ASCR, simply because of its dispersion. I don't mind its dispersion, it's perfectly reasonable. I often believe the AR should have a similar dispersion. But, since we got a cooldown buff I've been using the SCR exclusively. SCR > ASCR, since it can pull off a few more shots now before OH. If the anything needs to happen, I would swap the recoil and dispersion behaviors of both guns. Give the ASCR the rock steady aim in ADS, and have it gradually degrade, and give the AR the 100% consistent and steady moderate recoil. Another remedy would be to give the scrambler rifles a Sharpshooter skill.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2852	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:05:00 - [10] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I can use both proto ARs and proto ScRs, and I can tell you without a doubt that the AR is the superior weapon. The AScR is a joke compared to the AR, as the kick and muzzle flash severely impacts accuracy, and with having trained only 1 level in AR sharpshooter skill (i.e. not much difference from stock) that the grouping on the AR is incredibly tighter. This difference only gets magnified the farther you go, and as such the AScR is near unusable past 50 m without constant trigger feathering. The AR remains accurate out to 80m no problem. Sure, DPS of both weapons would be a good bit too much given their ranges, that is assuming that they both performed the same at range. This is of course a false assumption. If you want to be deadly with the AScR you need to be closer. You still have to burst the AR at longer ranges if you want to hit anything. True, it's recoil doesn't kick in (to full effect) until about half way through the magazine but again I'll point out that Dispersion is cosmetic and Recoil is simulated. You're firing straight lines - there is no such thing as dispersion or recoil in the traditional sense of the terminology. As far as the flashing lights disrupting accuracy mentioned earlier, that's an issue with game design and not the mechanics themselves. You can't attribute the weapon having a flaw in it's accuracy because you cannot physically see the target beyond the muzzle flash of the weapon - that's a player aspect and can be changed by the effects team. Despite the claims that these weapons have higher kick/dispersion or whatever terminology you choose to use - there's no definitive way (that I know of) to gauge it because of the issues mentioned in the first post. Unless CCP Wolfman comes in and shows us the differences in "recoil" and exactly how it operates, it's left largely to speculation and the only true way to test it is a side by side video comparison. Something I'm not yet convinced anyone has done. I deal in factual information. I'm not going to say that Recoil/Dispersion is an issue or a non-issue between the weapons because there is no accurate way to gauge it. It's too abstract with what is provided to us other than general feel of the user - but with that I'll say that there are many videos on youtube on how to effectively counter recoil in an FPS.

Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2853	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:09:00 - [11] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I use both Aeon. Both AR and SCR and maxed out for me. The Assault Scrambler when used in ADS, has instant dispersion. You can see it through the projectile and bullet impact animation (if that even relates to the actual vectors). I'm not as accurate with the Assault Scrambler at long range, as I am with the AR; before 1.4 part of the reason for this was the muzzle flash. Using the ASCR in ADS had a blinding muzzle flash, which incrementally damaged your ability to track targets at range. It was very subtle but it was there. But now during 1.4, the muzzle flash was toned down slightly, and I'm still having trouble tracking guys at range with the ASCR, simply because of its dispersion. I don't mind its dispersion, it's perfectly reasonable. I often believe the AR should have a similar dispersion. But, since we got a cooldown buff I've been using the SCR exclusively. SCR > ASCR, since it can pull off a few more shots now before OH. If the anything needs to happen, I would swap the recoil and dispersion behaviors of both guns. Give the ASCR the rock steady aim in ADS, and have it gradually degrade, and give the AR the 100% consistent and steady moderate recoil. Another remedy would be to give the scrambler rifles a Sharpshooter skill. I can agree to giving it a sharpshooter skill. I think that would be the best course of action before tossing out nerfs/buffs because of the wailing masses that are inevitably complaining, not because Assault Rifles are over-powered, but because Aim Assist allowed them to shine and people simply don't know how to counter them. I'm adamant that the range can be adjusted before doing anything as drastic as changing recoil and dispersion, ultimately changing the performance of the weapon. There are plenty of avenues we haven't approached yet and I think we've all learned that you can't leave it to CCP to listen to the community without over-doing it, less we have another broken weapon like the Breach Assault Rifle or the Tactical Assault Rifle pre-Uprising.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 179	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:13:00 - [12] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Ar is better than scr this is just pathetic lmfao ar range is wayyy to much for its purpose its supposed to have the range of like the breach short range high dmg Your are absolutlely right the AR needs its range tone done and the Ror or Damage buffed (slightly), well yu could also nerf the dps troughout the other Assault rifle variants ^^. The GAR should have the highest DPS and the lowest Range. The AsCR is in fact quite comparable o the AR but there are some aspects that make the AR more desirable. 1. The AR gets a huge accuracy boost through skills 25% reduction in recoil and another 25% reduction to dispersion is quite a lot. 2. The AR has a militia and a std variant whereas the AsCR is an advanced weapon that unlocks on lvl 4. 3. The AR has std blueprints that makes the weapon quite attractive 4. Everybody has an AR milita blueprint through starter fits so everybody has acces to the AR without SP investment
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2853	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:14:00 - [13] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Ar is better than scr this is just pathetic lmfao ar range is wayyy to much for its purpose its supposed to have the range of like the breach short range high dmg Your are absolutlely right the AR needs its range tone done and the Ror or Damage buffed (slightly), well yu could also nerf the dps troughout the other Assault rifle variants ^^. The GAR should have the highest DPS and the lowest Range. The AsCR is in fact quite comparable o the AR but there are some aspects that make the AR more desirable. 1. The AR gets a huge accuracy boost through skills 25% reduction in recoil and another 25% reduction to dispersion is quite a lot. 2. The AR has a militia and a std variant whereas the AsCR is an advanced weapon that unlocks on lvl 4. 3. The AR has std blueprints that makes the weapon quite attractive 4. Everybody has an AR milita blueprint through starter fits so everybody has acces to the AR without SP investment Going to make another thread to get a point across... Edit: Meh. Decided against it. People would foam at the mouth and have a brain aneurism. How's about, instead of increasing the recoil and dispersion on assault rifles (yanno, since AR Operation reduces it anyway and the argument is skewed because of it) we just remove the recoil and dispersion on the Scrambler Rifle and put the two in line with one another..? Simple enough solution and it doesn't require breaking everything.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2853	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:47:00 - [14] - Quote Tested, performed and data compiled. AR has less recoil due to skills, ASR has absolutely no muzzle climb. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1295853#post1295853
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps Dark Taboo 18	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:48:00 - [15] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Ar is better than scr this is just pathetic lmfao ar range is wayyy to much for its purpose its supposed to have the range of like the breach short range high dmg Are you CCP? I think not. Don't say what a weapon they made is supposed to be like. If you nerf the range, the tactical/burst ar would be useless
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 924	Posted - 2013.09.13 11:42:00 - [16] - Quote The Assault Rifle is good at long, medium, and short range engagements, and the skills you get for it make it have even less dispersion and kick, allowing you to basically fire an automatic sniper rifle. The downside to the AR is that you run out of ammo quickly, but as long as you have nanohives and such you're fine. You don't have any disadvantage unless you're trying to shoot across the map. You nerf the assault rifle by adding some more dispersion or kick, and it makes long range engagements not worth it. This FORCES assault rifles to stick to medium range engagements, and to get closer to their opponent, while still keeping the massive damage output that assault rifles need at this range. ____________________ The Assault Scrambler Rifle has two variants: -ADV (Less accurate, better at close-medium range) -Proto (Very accurate, good at both long and short ranges) The biggest advantage the scrambler has over the AR is the range factor. The problem is that the ADV version has to get into the AR's optimal range in order to compete with it since at long range it just doesn't land enough hits. This is because of two reasons: -There are no skills that reduce kick or dispersion for the scrambler -The kick and dispersion is already greater than the AR for the ADV version. So what ends up happening is that the AR lands more hits than an assault scrambler, and getting closer to make the gun hit more often only causes the AR to be more effective. If you nerf the scrambler, you're just making the weapon suck even more than it does now. The reason why the assault variant is balanced whereas the AR is not is because you can't turn a scrambler into an automatic sniper, and have to rely on staying within a certain range. These same limits need to apply to the AR if balance is what we're after. ___________________________ The assault rifle is meant to be deadly at medium range, but have enough dispersion to be useless at anything farther than that. The scrambler should do the same thing, but at a slightly longer range, with a disadvantage of getting too close to your opponent. Right now the Assault Rifle is the king of close, medium, and long ranges, while still being as accurate as a scrambler rifle, and as deadly as an HMG. The assault scrambler is very good at close and medium ranges, but struggles at long range and only has the killing power of your standard videogame assault rifle.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 573	Posted - 2013.09.13 12:48:00 - [17] - Quote Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2861	Posted - 2013.09.13 13:09:00 - [18] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1489	Posted - 2013.09.13 13:46:00 - [19] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2869	Posted - 2013.09.13 13:56:00 - [20] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle Suppose I stand corrected but I'm sure that philosophy has evolved since then.

Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 310	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:02:00 - [21] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: This might be a problem we're approaching in the wrong fashion. Direct nerfs/buffs to any weapon might just make the problem worse. Every weapon needs a militia variant. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, as who the hell is going to dump 50k sp just to try out a new weapon when they're first starting? they're going to use weapons they can try for free, and due to inertia they'll likely stick with that weapon for quite some time. It might also be a good idea to raise the AR's fitting costs. It might not seem like much but it would make Ar users have to use lower level mods making them weaker as a whole instead of the juggernauts they are. It seems odd to me that the weapon with the highest DPS also has some of the lowest fitting costs. better all around performance should mean higher all around fitting costs. The fitting cost for a Duvolle is already absurdly high making it tough to fit on any proto suit other than the Assault variants. This is already in place. The problem is still a damage type issue. We have no built in resistance to any type of weapons and the ones that do more to a certain type of tank (shield or armor) cannot be tanked for other than with more buffer. Please check out this thread which provides an excellent way to protect yourself on the battlefield. Resistance Thread
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 907	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:07:00 - [22] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle Suppose I stand corrected but I'm sure that philosophy has evolved since then. It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I don't think anything needs to happen to the AR much. Just give it instant dispersion when it starts shooting, instead of having it fire perfect lines for the first 15 rounds, and it'll be fine. That will limit it's accuracy at long range, which is what everyone is pissed off about. You don't need to reduce the ARs damage, RoF, or optimal or effective ranges. Just keep the dispersion the same, but have it start the moment you start firing. Just like the ASCR.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 311	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:14:00 - [23] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle Suppose I stand corrected but I'm sure that philosophy has evolved since then. It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I don't think anything needs to happen to the AR much. Just give it instant dispersion when it starts shooting, instead of having it fire perfect lines for the first 15 rounds, and it'll be fine. That will limit it's accuracy at long range, which is what everyone is pissed off about. You don't need to reduce the ARs damage, RoF, or optimal or effective ranges. Just keep the dispersion the same, but have it start the moment you start firing. Just like the ASCR. Dispersion is an effect caused by a weapon kicking, and overheating, not just by firing a bullet but multiple bullets. The current system of dispersion is as accurate to life as can be implemented. The problem isn't with the weapons it is with how tanking your suit currently works (or doesn't). Vis a vie check out this Resistance Tanking Thread.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1489	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:20:00 - [24] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: This might be a problem we're approaching in the wrong fashion. Direct nerfs/buffs to any weapon might just make the problem worse. Every weapon needs a militia variant. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, as who the hell is going to dump 50k sp just to try out a new weapon when they're first starting? they're going to use weapons they can try for free, and due to inertia they'll likely stick with that weapon for quite some time. It might also be a good idea to raise the AR's fitting costs. It might not seem like much but it would make Ar users have to use lower level mods making them weaker as a whole instead of the juggernauts they are. It seems odd to me that the weapon with the highest DPS also has some of the lowest fitting costs. better all around performance should mean higher all around fitting costs. The fitting cost for a Duvolle is already absurdly high making it tough to fit on any proto suit other than the Assault variants. This is already in place. The problem is still a damage type issue. We have no built in resistance to any type of weapons and the ones that do more to a certain type of tank (shield or armor) cannot be tanked for other than with more buffer. Please check out this thread which provides an excellent way to protect yourself on the battlefield. Resistance Thread Compare the Duvolle to any other weapon at proto. It has lower costs than anything but the LR. This means the gun with the highest DPS in the game has the best fitting costs. As far as it being hard to fit a duvolle, have you ever tried fitting a CRW-9 scrambler onto anything? it takes 16 pg. this is at adv level, so that means the advanced SCR takes 3 more pg than the duvolle. It also takes more CPU than the GEK as well. The AR has absurdly low fitting costs for their performance which let them have a better tank or more damage mods.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2872	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:20:00 - [25] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle Suppose I stand corrected but I'm sure that philosophy has evolved since then. It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I don't think anything needs to happen to the AR much. Just give it instant dispersion when it starts shooting, instead of having it fire perfect lines for the first 15 rounds, and it'll be fine. That will limit it's accuracy at long range, which is what everyone is pissed off about. You don't need to reduce the ARs damage, RoF, or optimal or effective ranges. Just keep the dispersion the same, but have it start the moment you start firing. Just like the ASCR. Agree. The first few rounds down range there isn't any recoil/dispersion, that much I can admit to - but once it kicks it it's pretty crucial when you don't have AR Operation. I mean, technically you could put in a Sharpshooter skill for Scramblers if it's really that big of a deal. My usual outbursts are often directly associated with someone posting up false math and exaggerated claims (like the "Official" Nerf AR thread looming around) but you seem to have your **** down so I'll buy you a drink some time. That is, after I get done shooting at you because your name looks way too familiar and that's often a sign you're one of those finicky ones I have a challenge against xD
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1489	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:24:00 - [26] - Quote Jathniel wrote: It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I'm guessing they're using the breach rifle to balance a higher damage per shot but lower rate of fire weapon for CQC, and the rail rifle will function in a similar manner but with much better range.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 909	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:32:00 - [27] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: This might be a problem we're approaching in the wrong fashion. Direct nerfs/buffs to any weapon might just make the problem worse. Every weapon needs a militia variant. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, as who the hell is going to dump 50k sp just to try out a new weapon when they're first starting? they're going to use weapons they can try for free, and due to inertia they'll likely stick with that weapon for quite some time. It might also be a good idea to raise the AR's fitting costs. It might not seem like much but it would make Ar users have to use lower level mods making them weaker as a whole instead of the juggernauts they are. It seems odd to me that the weapon with the highest DPS also has some of the lowest fitting costs. better all around performance should mean higher all around fitting costs. The fitting cost for a Duvolle is already absurdly high making it tough to fit on any proto suit other than the Assault variants. This is already in place. The problem is still a damage type issue. We have no built in resistance to any type of weapons and the ones that do more to a certain type of tank (shield or armor) cannot be tanked for other than with more buffer. Please check out this thread which provides an excellent way to protect yourself on the battlefield. Resistance Thread I don't think many know how to take advantage of the damage profiles in the game. I don't remotely see assault rifles as a problem generally. Generally, I am fighting Caldari assaults with ARs. So I play the natural counter to them which is a Gallente suit with a scrambler rifle. Not only are they doing less than optimal damage to me, but with proficiency and damage mods on my scrambler, I am doing nearly DOUBLE damage to them. I can take a STD scrambler and drop a proto Caldari with a Duvolle in an instant because of this. Literally 3-5 hits. I've gotten mail asking me "how did you vaporize 600 ehp instantly like that?" The answer is simple. The fit is a Caldari Killer. I like your thread, but what's to stop everyone from simply tanking out an Amarr suit, and say.... making shields resistant to hybrid and laser weapons, and making their armor resistant to projectile and explosives? If people hate the concept of dual tanking, that would only perpetuate the problem. As theoretically, that system can nearly eliminate almost all weaknesses. I do like the efficiency indicator concept from EVE as well though. At the same time we have similar systems already in game right now. Right now, you ARE able to tell what suit someone has on when you aim at them, and you CAN see how effective the weapon you're using is. What I would like is for damage mod percentage to be visibly added to the damage profile indicator when you aim at someone. So you can see, EXACTLY what your final damage tally is going to be when you shoot. It's good to bear in mind, that we will be getting additional weapons in 1.5. These will come with their own profiles as well. What I think would be good is a general hardener function for both shields and armor. Shields harden but don't recharge. Armor hardens, but slows you down.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 311	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:38:00 - [28] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle Not at all, to the best of our knowledge ccp has stated that the TAC AR is the fill in for the Rail Rifle.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 910	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:39:00 - [29] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Jathniel wrote: It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I'm guessing they're using the breach rifle to balance a higher damage per shot but lower rate of fire weapon for CQC, and the rail rifle will function in a similar manner but with much better range. Much better range. We've already seen this before... http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/07/weapon-ranges-in-uprising-1.2-and-beyond/ It bugs me that you got a Pistol AND an SMG listed under "long range". We'll see what happens assuming they come 1.5. I anticipate the AR is going to be least of people's problems.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2875	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:43:00 - [30] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Jathniel wrote: It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I'm guessing they're using the breach rifle to balance a higher damage per shot but lower rate of fire weapon for CQC, and the rail rifle will function in a similar manner but with much better range. Much better range. We've already seen this before... http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/07/weapon-ranges-in-uprising-1.2-and-beyond/ It bugs me that you got a Pistol AND an SMG listed under "long range". We'll see what happens assuming they come 1.5. I anticipate the AR is going to be least of people's problems. That's Caldari though. Long range, shite for damage. Amarr come with second longest range and some pretty nice damage. Minmatar usually favor small optimals with ridiculous fall off with some hefty fire rates to make up for damage application. Gallente stick to close engagements with the highest damage out of all of them.

Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 311	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:56:00 - [31] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: This might be a problem we're approaching in the wrong fashion. Direct nerfs/buffs to any weapon might just make the problem worse. Every weapon needs a militia variant. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, as who the hell is going to dump 50k sp just to try out a new weapon when they're first starting? they're going to use weapons they can try for free, and due to inertia they'll likely stick with that weapon for quite some time. It might also be a good idea to raise the AR's fitting costs. It might not seem like much but it would make Ar users have to use lower level mods making them weaker as a whole instead of the juggernauts they are. It seems odd to me that the weapon with the highest DPS also has some of the lowest fitting costs. better all around performance should mean higher all around fitting costs. The fitting cost for a Duvolle is already absurdly high making it tough to fit on any proto suit other than the Assault variants. This is already in place. The problem is still a damage type issue. We have no built in resistance to any type of weapons and the ones that do more to a certain type of tank (shield or armor) cannot be tanked for other than with more buffer. Please check out this thread which provides an excellent way to protect yourself on the battlefield. Resistance Thread I don't think many know how to take advantage of the damage profiles in the game. I don't remotely see assault rifles as a problem generally. Generally, I am fighting Caldari assaults with ARs. So I play the natural counter to them which is a Gallente suit with a scrambler rifle. Not only are they doing less than optimal damage to me, but with proficiency and damage mods on my scrambler, I am doing nearly DOUBLE damage to them. I can take a STD scrambler and drop a proto Caldari with a Duvolle in an instant because of this. Literally 3-5 hits. I've gotten mail asking me "how did you vaporize 600 ehp instantly like that?" The answer is simple. The fit is a Caldari Killer. I like your thread, but what's to stop everyone from simply tanking out an Amarr suit, and say.... making shields resistant to hybrid and laser weapons, and making their armor resistant to projectile and explosives? If people hate the concept of dual tanking, that would only perpetuate the problem. As theoretically, that system can nearly eliminate almost all weaknesses. I do like the efficiency indicator concept from EVE as well though. At the same time we have similar systems already in game right now. Right now, you ARE able to tell what suit someone has on when you aim at them, and you CAN see how effective the weapon you're using is. What I would like is for damage mod percentage to be visibly added to the damage profile indicator when you aim at someone. So you can see, EXACTLY what your final damage tally is going to be when you shoot. It's good to bear in mind, that we will be getting additional weapons in 1.5. These will come with their own profiles as well. What I think would be good is a general hardener function for both shields and armor. Shields harden but don't recharge. Armor hardens, but slows you down. Ultimately PG, Cpu and slot layouts prevent people from turning turtle. Right now though there is no turtling at all and not everyone has a "Caldari Killer" or Gallente Killer or Minmatar Killer suit available, although the Amarr killer has been perfected by cooking a militia locus grenade and giving it to the nearest heavy. What you would see is suits that while stronger to one type of damage would be weaker to others. This is a function of fitting a resistance module to the suit, taking an armor or shield slot just like what shield rechargers, shield energizers and shield regulators do already or armor repairers even. This is not an extra slot or a plate with +65Hp of thermal armor. It is a membrane that provides a layer of resistance to the type of damage it is designed to protect from. This means lower HP but higher resistance allowing for faster resistance tanked heavys or a shield tanker caldari that only takes maybe half of the damage to shields he normally would from a flux grenade.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 312	Posted - 2013.09.13 15:46:00 - [32] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Jathniel wrote: It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I'm guessing they're using the breach rifle to balance a higher damage per shot but lower rate of fire weapon for CQC, and the rail rifle will function in a similar manner but with much better range. Much better range. We've already seen this before... http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/07/weapon-ranges-in-uprising-1.2-and-beyond/ It bugs me that you got a Pistol AND an SMG listed under "long range". We'll see what happens assuming they come 1.5. I anticipate the AR is going to be least of people's problems. I agree, 1.5 will most certainly bring additional issues as all patches to uprising have thus far. I anticipate the additional weapons "planned to be added" to restart the fires in everyone's hearts for balance just as the addition of the flaylock pistol did. Finishing the racial lines may fix some of the problems that are -in-game- issues with how to tank/kill right now. Not to mention the SP issues for Amarr Heavy Minmatar mercs looking to use a Minmatar racial Heavy suit.
Heimdallr69 TeamPlayers EoN. 793	Posted - 2013.09.13 19:35:00 - [33] - Quote Okay for now on you nerf one thing you have to nerf them all I'm done with your **** go spec fully into ascr the comeback and tell me its just as good as an ar...
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 574	Posted - 2013.09.13 20:36:00 - [34] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Jathniel wrote: It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I'm guessing they're using the breach rifle to balance a higher damage per shot but lower rate of fire weapon for CQC, and the rail rifle will function in a similar manner but with much better range. Assault versions emulate plasma/blaster rifles. Breach versions emulate rail rifles. Burst versions emulate combat rifles. Tactical versions emulate scrambler rifles. Variants shouldn't be as powerful or more powerful than the weapon they are emulating. My guess at the breach's association with rail rifles is that rail rifles probably will have a low RoF but a higher damage per shot, just like the breach AR. Except much longer range and probably a little less damage output than a breach AR. It's excellence will be in range. For tactical versions, they emulate the semi-auto fire of scrambler rifles. They also have the highest damage per shot of all the rifles. Right now scrambler rifles and Tac ARs have a nearly identical damage per shot. I'd be fine if the scrambler rifle had a little less damage (because hey, blasters do more damage than pulse lasers in EVE), if the scrambler rifle could out range the Tac AR (which right now it is the opposite).
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3179	Posted - 2013.09.13 22:07:00 - [35] - Quote Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no But it doesn't! How can you believe this so fervently? There is no recoil on it.
OgTheEnigma Seraphim Initiative.. 160	Posted - 2013.09.14 02:00:00 - [36] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no But it doesn't! How can you believe this so fervently? There is no recoil on it. Recoil =/= dispersion.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2898	Posted - 2013.09.14 05:42:00 - [37] - Quote OgTheEnigma wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no But it doesn't! How can you believe this so fervently? There is no recoil on it. Recoil =/= dispersion. Lmfao - you guys are ridiculous... Seriously. Listen. I'll even put it in bold and underline it for you. Assault Rifle has no recoil or dispersion because of it's skills. The Assault Scrambler Rifle does not have these skills. The Assault Rifle still has drastic muzzle climb. The Assault Scrambler Rifle does not have ANY muzzle climb. Recoil =/= Dispersion =/= Muzzle Climb. It's not you want the Assault Rifle to have more recoil or dispersion it's that you want the skills removed that put it in that position. This just goes to show me that you have a general idea of what you want, but not specifically want you want or how to convey that you want it.
Jade Hasegawa Intrepidus XI EoN. 111	Posted - 2013.09.14 11:01:00 - [38] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I use both and the only difference I see is the AR is pretty good against sheilds and armour but as a Hybrid class gun its supposed to be that way where as the Scrambler rifle is an energy weapon so it ripis should but is weaker agaisnt armour a gain that's on the money for the games setup but... Even tho I have more SPin AR then SCR/ASCR to me they seem equally as effective in combat. I think the AR needs a slight nerf to range,maybe 10 to 20 meters differing across the versions as you would expect the top tier guns to be better in all aspects then the entry tier stuff. It also needs an increase in recoil,when I specced into AR after game launch, I was able togo to AR 5 instantly and get the recoil control bonus from the get go. the recoil needs to be more sever to stop the full mag spray and prayers out there as I think its that combined with a slightly over sensitive aim assit that is making the AR so tear inducing atm overv how it used to be (b4 anyone asks I turned the aim assist off,I am confident enough in my aiming ability) I think that the ASCR needs one buff (range) to take advantage of the fact it has a reflex sight and one buff (overheat needs looking at on the full auto as they rarely overheat compare to the semi auto Scr.
Cosgar ParagonX 5239	Posted - 2013.09.14 11:05:00 - [39] - Quote AR users must be scared if there's topics to bring down other rifles when they get nerfed. I'm licking my lips thinking about the delicious tears when the AR goes to being the jack of all trades and master of none, but the sweat is pretty sweet too. The nerf hammer cometh, and it cometh hard.
Jade Hasegawa Intrepidus XI EoN. 111	Posted - 2013.09.14 11:16:00 - [40] - Quote Eh, I put SP into AR/SCR/Swarms/SMG/Snipers, ifone gets nerfed I have other toys to play with:)

Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2903	Posted - 2013.09.14 11:29:00 - [41] - Quote Cosgar wrote: AR users must be scared if there's topics to bring down other rifles when they get nerfed. I'm licking my lips thinking about the delicious tears when the AR goes to being the jack of all trades and master of none, but the sweat is pretty sweet too. The nerf hammer cometh, and it cometh hard. It's not going to get nerfed because everyone wanting it to be nerfed hasn't put forth any legitimate evidence as to why it should other than the fact that they die a lot.
Cosgar ParagonX 5241	Posted - 2013.09.14 11:55:00 - [42] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cosgar wrote: AR users must be scared if there's topics to bring down other rifles when they get nerfed. I'm licking my lips thinking about the delicious tears when the AR goes to being the jack of all trades and master of none, but the sweat is pretty sweet too. The nerf hammer cometh, and it cometh hard. It's not going to get nerfed because everyone wanting it to be nerfed hasn't put forth any legitimate evidence as to why it should other than the fact that they die a lot. Say again? Also, the AR is a placeholder of the 4 racial rifles. Once the combat and rail rifle come out, the AR is going to need to be re-balanced with it's own weaknesses anyway. It's just a matter of time.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2904	Posted - 2013.09.14 14:09:00 - [43] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Cosgar wrote: AR users must be scared if there's topics to bring down other rifles when they get nerfed. I'm licking my lips thinking about the delicious tears when the AR goes to being the jack of all trades and master of none, but the sweat is pretty sweet too. The nerf hammer cometh, and it cometh hard. It's not going to get nerfed because everyone wanting it to be nerfed hasn't put forth any legitimate evidence as to why it should other than the fact that they die a lot. Say again? Also, the AR is a placeholder of the 4 racial rifles. Once the combat and rail rifle come out, the AR is going to need to be re-balanced with it's own weaknesses anyway. It's just a matter of time. Lmfao, oh yeah that thread... Why not go look at my response, complete with all sorts of fun mathematics, videos and graphs without all the fantastical numbers and biased non-sense behind it all. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1295740#post1295740
semperfi1999 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 924	Posted - 2013.09.14 14:36:00 - [44] - Quote I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2905	Posted - 2013.09.14 14:39:00 - [45] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately.
semperfi1999 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 928	Posted - 2013.09.14 15:06:00 - [46] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately. We were hated for our bravado on the forums....and the fact that we could back that up in game. Something people tend not to like. However a lot of imperfects (in regards to game play or game balance) have played FPS games competitively. As a result we know alot about weapon balancing and how it should be done effectively. Ppl just love to continue to hate us for our trolling in other areas and ignore us when we talk about correct weapon balance.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3201	Posted - 2013.09.14 15:09:00 - [47] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Excellent post. There's very little I can add here, actually. I struggle not to facepalm every time I'm told that the ASCR has more recoil.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2908	Posted - 2013.09.14 15:10:00 - [48] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately. We were hated for our bravado on the forums....and the fact that we could back that up in game. Something people tend not to like. However a lot of imperfects (in regards to game play or game balance) have played FPS games competitively. As a result we know alot about weapon balancing and how it should be done effectively. Ppl just love to continue to hate us for our trolling in other areas and ignore us when we talk about correct weapon balance. Eh, most of my hatred for you guys stemmed from the bravado aspect and less on the fact you were right. That and the fact that I am mutually hated by many of the members is somewhat amusing - I remember when Internal-Error was part of Hellstorm and someone said, "What the ****, Aeon is in here?" Nothing like a little bit of bad publicity to get the gears going xD Past the general forum banter you guys actually bring up a lot of really good points though - and I'm only just now starting to see this with how idiotic half of the forum goers are.
semperfi1999 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 929	Posted - 2013.09.14 15:31:00 - [49] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately. We were hated for our bravado on the forums....and the fact that we could back that up in game. Something people tend not to like. However a lot of imperfects (in regards to game play or game balance) have played FPS games competitively. As a result we know alot about weapon balancing and how it should be done effectively. Ppl just love to continue to hate us for our trolling in other areas and ignore us when we talk about correct weapon balance. Eh, most of my hatred for you guys stemmed from the bravado aspect and less on the fact you were right. That and the fact that I am mutually hated by many of the members is somewhat amusing - I remember when Internal-Error was part of Hellstorm and someone said, "What the ****, Aeon is in here?" Nothing like a little bit of bad publicity to get the gears going xD Past the general forum banter you guys actually bring up a lot of really good points though - and I'm only just now starting to see this with how idiotic half of the forum goers are. In that case welcome to the world of forum PvP.....in our minds the forums PvP was always more competitive and fun than the actual game was....especially as CCP continued to make stupid decisions. Sota was the perfect example of this. He joined our ranks so that we could increase our forum trolling and PvP because back when imperfects were actually around (we are in retirement now) our PvP could not be matched.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2908	Posted - 2013.09.14 15:37:00 - [50] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately. We were hated for our bravado on the forums....and the fact that we could back that up in game. Something people tend not to like. However a lot of imperfects (in regards to game play or game balance) have played FPS games competitively. As a result we know alot about weapon balancing and how it should be done effectively. Ppl just love to continue to hate us for our trolling in other areas and ignore us when we talk about correct weapon balance. Eh, most of my hatred for you guys stemmed from the bravado aspect and less on the fact you were right. That and the fact that I am mutually hated by many of the members is somewhat amusing - I remember when Internal-Error was part of Hellstorm and someone said, "What the ****, Aeon is in here?" Nothing like a little bit of bad publicity to get the gears going xD Past the general forum banter you guys actually bring up a lot of really good points though - and I'm only just now starting to see this with how idiotic half of the forum goers are. In that case welcome to the world of forum PvP.....in our minds the forums PvP was always more competitive and fun than the actual game was....especially as CCP continued to make stupid decisions. Sota was the perfect example of this. He joined our ranks so that we could increase our forum trolling and PvP because back when imperfects were actually around (we are in retirement now) our PvP could not be matched. It has been getting better lately though, you have to admit. Slowly... But it is happening.

semperfi1999 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 929	Posted - 2013.09.14 15:59:00 - [51] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: It has been getting better lately though, you have to admit. Slowly... But it is happening. Yes is has a bit but then they also took steps backwards....like the strong AA. That being said its truly going to end up being too little too late. PS4 is coming out....and they will have at least 1 FTP FPS game when PS4 launches and they will be getting 2 more FTP FPS games. And when those games hit they will probably already be where dust is headed (but Dust will likely take another year or more to get to that point).
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2909	Posted - 2013.09.14 16:07:00 - [52] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: It has been getting better lately though, you have to admit. Slowly... But it is happening. Yes is has a bit but then they also took steps backwards....like the strong AA. That being said its truly going to end up being too little too late. PS4 is coming out....and they will have at least 1 FTP FPS game when PS4 launches and they will be getting 2 more FTP FPS games. And when those games hit they will probably already be where dust is headed (but Dust will likely take another year or more to get to that point). Lol, AA isn't nearly as strong as it is in Black Ops. I think it's fine, just people are so used to not having it that it's a system shock. I mean, come on, when people make comments like this: "all aim assist did was make skilled players even more OP" Just saying... X +10 = 10x. Take the 10 away, you still have X. Aim Assist didn't make skilled players any more or less skilled, and it's not like -SOME- players don't have the option to use AA.. If it's that big of a problem, just turn it on. Every FPS game I've ever played people would ***** about AA. It doesn't go through walls and it doesn't put the cross hair directly on the target, so it's not like there's no player involvement in killing you.. Just makes it so that you can't trick him into aiming past you as easily, which in turn forces you to use cover more than relying on strafe speed.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 985	Posted - 2013.09.14 16:07:00 - [53] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I hear a lot of talk about recoil and dispersion but inevitably I always answer it the same way: Recoil does not make the Assault Rifle overpowered. Any weapon is going to be accurate as the dickens when aiming down the sights and when you implement "dispersion" in a hit scan based system, it's almost entirely cosmetic and ultimately arbitrary. You're not firing rounds, you're firing a vector that intersects with another line and inevitably stops. This is not Battlefield 3, there are no bullet physics. Dispersion is entirely client based and you can readily see this just based on observation, and it applies with almost all first person shooters - save those that have extensive game design around bullet physics like Battlefield 3 and the Sniper franchise. A good example of this is the "headshot glitch" in which they are able to fire at you because the rounds come from their camera, which is located in their head and not the weapon. Recoil, on the other hand, is slightly more prominent. It usually doesn't kick in until you're about halfway through the magazine but either way you should be firing in bursts anyway and even if the recoil is ten times that of any other weapon you can manage it just by firing in smaller bursts. Tapping the R1 button reduces the recoil so significantly that a thread regarding the phenomenon actually made it on the "feedback/discussions weekly report" that CCP does, and it was functioning as intended. Because it is. All games do this. The reason this is important information is because inevitably it falls back on the fact that it's a vector and there's no way to simulate dispersion without the dreaded "random bullet spread" effect. When you fire at a wall, you see the rounds impact in multiple areas - whereas another player will see the rounds land in a single location. Now, I could go on and talk about all the game mechanics for hours but inevitably what's important is the disparity between the Assault Rifle and the Scrambler Rifle/Assault Scrambler Rifle. The design philosophy is that the Assault Rifle is meant for high damage, low range engagements - a stark contrast to, say, the Rail Rifle which is the exact opposite. The Scrambler Rifle is intended to come in at a close second in terms of range engagement. If you compare the Assault Rifle and Scrambler Rifle variants, you'll notice that this is -mostly- true as the Assault Scrambler Rifle does have a higher effective range while retaining a similar optimal range, as indicated here: http://i.imgur.com/krRr5EZ.png The issue, however, is that both have roughly the same DPS. One has higher damage with lower fire rate, the other has lower damage with higher fire rate. If the Assault Rifle is intended to be a high damage weapon with low range, inevitably it falls back on how it compares to the Assault Scrambler Rifle's range. If both have the same DPS (which, they do) than the range is a buff against the Assault Rifle. I've honestly been curious as to why the Assault Scrambler Rifle hasn't been used more frequently as it's a fierce weapon to compete against on the field even with Assault Rifle Proficiency 4, but I digress. The Assault Rifle does not need a Recoil/Dispersion nerf. Range doesn't mean anything if you're not accurate enough to engage at those ranges and taking away from this will increase the disparity in a negative way. On the other hand, you can reduce the optimal range slighty (at the most by 10 meters) so that the range scales accordingly, but even then this is too much of a difference as the Assault Scrambler Rifle isn't intended to have the highest range. With which, you have to be careful how you proceed. Reason being? If you reduce the range on the Assault Rifle, all of a sudden the Assault Scrambler Rifle is a much better alternative due to it's similar DPS output, negligible overheat mechanic and better performance at range. If you reduce the range on the Assault Rifle, you have to reduce the damage on the Assault Scrambler Rifle, otherwise there isn't enough diversity in the play style to matter - one is obviously better than the other. Almost all of the issues presented, like Recoil/Dispersion, is entirely circumstantial. Sure, it does really good headshot damage but considering that the Scrambler Pistol does 400% of it's normal damage on a headshot, you can't use it as a legitimate argument because there are weapons that out perform the Assault Rifle for that reason. The problem is just what you say. If we change ranges then other stats will have to change. I say start slow and use little changes. This game needs diversity and the AR doesn't allow for it. The ranges need to be looked at and adjusted or we will never see anything but ARs.
Skipper Jones Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 740	Posted - 2013.09.14 17:46:00 - [54] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: . You can't have the cake and eat it to. Then what the hell do you have the cake for? Are you supposed to stare at the cake. When you get a damn cake, you eat the damn cake.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3203	Posted - 2013.09.14 17:47:00 - [55] - Quote Skipper Jones wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: . You can't have the cake and eat it to. Then what the hell do you have the cake for? Are you supposed to stare at the cake. When you get a damn cake, you eat the damn cake. The point of the expression is that once you eat the cake, you no longer have the cake.
Skipper Jones Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 740	Posted - 2013.09.14 18:00:00 - [56] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Skipper Jones wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: . You can't have the cake and eat it to. Then what the hell do you have the cake for? Are you supposed to stare at the cake. When you get a damn cake, you eat the damn cake. The point of the expression is that once you eat the cake, you no longer have the cake. I know . I just hate the expression.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1491	Posted - 2013.09.14 18:16:00 - [57] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: The problem is just what you say. If we change ranges then other stats will have to change. I say start slow and use little changes. This game needs diversity and the AR doesn't allow for it. The ranges need to be looked at and adjusted or we will never see anything but ARs. The lack of diversity has less to do with the AR being unbalanced as it has to do with starter fits all having ARs and not every weapon has a militia variant. We need all of the racial rifles in the game, too. We'll see a bunch more variety when all of the "ARs" are in the game.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2915	Posted - 2013.09.14 18:20:00 - [58] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: The problem is just what you say. If we change ranges then other stats will have to change. I say start slow and use little changes. This game needs diversity and the AR doesn't allow for it. The ranges need to be looked at and adjusted or we will never see anything but ARs. The lack of diversity has less to do with the AR being unbalanced as it has to do with starter fits all having ARs and not every weapon has a militia variant. We need all of the racial rifles in the game, too. We'll see a bunch more variety when all of the "ARs" are in the game. If the goal is for all racial rifles to have the exact same DPS with different ranges then we'll quickly see the ARs start getting bred out. I'm still surprised that more people don't use the Assault Scrambler Rifle. I have no skills in it what so ever and I can't over-heat the damned thing, so it's not like it's this huge drawback. Hell, the only drawback it has when compared to the AR is resource costs and that can be easily dispatched just by using an Amarr suit because they have higher resources than the others.
semperfi1999 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 929	Posted - 2013.09.14 18:41:00 - [59] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: The problem is just what you say. If we change ranges then other stats will have to change. I say start slow and use little changes. This game needs diversity and the AR doesn't allow for it. The ranges need to be looked at and adjusted or we will never see anything but ARs. The lack of diversity has less to do with the AR being unbalanced as it has to do with starter fits all having ARs and not every weapon has a militia variant. We need all of the racial rifles in the game, too. We'll see a bunch more variety when all of the "ARs" are in the game. About time someone noted the truth. People just dont seem to listen. Starter fits is the main reason why people continue to use the AR. They use it and are comfortable with it...it works so they continue to use it and ignore other weaponry they might be able to try.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1492	Posted - 2013.09.14 19:37:00 - [60] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm still surprised that more people don't use the Assault Scrambler Rifle. I have no skills in it what so ever and I can't over-heat the damned thing, so it's not like it's this huge drawback. Hell, the only drawback it has when compared to the AR is resource costs and that can be easily dispatched just by using an Amarr suit because they have higher resources than the others. The reason that so few people use the ASCR is that it just isn't all that good. The SCR in my opinion outperforms the ASCR. It's a good gun, it just can't land a 300+ damage headshot before the poor chap know's he's in my sights, and the vanilla SCR can fire more powerful shots just as fast for CQC. but then again I've got more than 2.5 million SP dedicated towards heat management so I can take the higher heat of the SCR. The relationship between the SCR and ASCR can be compared to the Tac AR and the vanilla AR pre TacAR nerf. There is nothing the ASCR can do the SCR can't do better.

Heimdallr69 TeamPlayers EoN. 794	Posted - 2013.09.14 19:41:00 - [61] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately. I have both to officer and I completely disagree get rid of the ******* flash I'm trying to shoot not go blind...and with more people running armor lately that's a perfect counter 80% dmg to armor, what's the counter to ar? Oh yeah nothing cuz its range is far more than its supposed to be
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2915	Posted - 2013.09.14 19:55:00 - [62] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately. I have both to officer and I completely disagree get rid of the ******* flash I'm trying to shoot not go blind...and with more people running armor lately that's a perfect counter 80% dmg to armor, what's the counter to ar? Oh yeah nothing cuz its range is far more than its supposed to be So, close the distance. Use a Shotgun, an HMG. If it's range is "too far" than try the opposite approach. I still land kills with the Shotgun and I can't even used Advanced ones.
semperfi1999 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 929	Posted - 2013.09.14 19:55:00 - [63] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately. I have both to officer and I completely disagree get rid of the ******* flash I'm trying to shoot not go blind...and with more people running armor lately that's a perfect counter 80% dmg to armor, what's the counter to ar? Oh yeah nothing cuz its range is far more than its supposed to be I do find the flash annoying but while it is annoying it doesnt detract from the fact that the stats on the ASCR are better than the AR. Some people may have serious issues with the flash fortunately I am able to ignore the flash mostly so it goes largely unnoticed to me. However your perfect counter still does not hold any argument. There is 2 dmg difference....even fully upgraded with +15% dmg there is still only 2 dmg difference to armor between the proto lvls of ASCR/AR. The Optimal ranges are the same for both of these weapons. Personally I do think it would be interesting if CCP actually made the weapons act more like their Eve counterparts and made larger differences in the range vs CQC and DPS. However I dont see them ever doing this.
Heimdallr69 TeamPlayers EoN. 795	Posted - 2013.09.14 20:08:00 - [64] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately. I have both to officer and I completely disagree get rid of the ***** flash I'm trying to shoot not go blind...and with more people running armor lately that's a perfect counter 80% dmg to armor, what's the counter to ar? Oh yeah nothing cuz its range is far more than its supposed to be I do find the flash annoying but while it is annoying it doesnt detract from the fact that the stats on the ASCR are better than the AR. Some people may have serious issues with the flash fortunately I am able to ignore the flash mostly so it goes largely unnoticed to me. However your perfect counter still does not hold any argument. There is 2 dmg difference....even fully upgraded with +15% dmg there is still only 2 dmg difference to armor between the proto lvls of ASCR/AR. The Optimal ranges are the same for both of these weapons. Personally I do think it would be interesting if CCP actually made the weapons act more like their Eve counterparts and made larger differences in the range vs CQC and DPS. However I dont see them ever doing this. I have very sensitive eyes and that ** pisses me off the people who know me know I've been waiting sinced closed beta for it and now it burns my eyes I hate the ar I've used it every build I've used md tanks forgeguns sr lr and now the scr and I can't hardly use it...and an AR is a blaster short range high damage @ aeon
Heimdallr69 TeamPlayers EoN. 795	Posted - 2013.09.14 20:10:00 - [65] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately. I have both to officer and I completely disagree get rid of the ******* flash I'm trying to shoot not go blind...and with more people running armor lately that's a perfect counter 80% dmg to armor, what's the counter to ar? Oh yeah nothing cuz its range is far more than its supposed to be I do find the flash annoying but while it is annoying it doesnt detract from the fact that the stats on the ASCR are better than the AR. Some people may have serious issues with the flash fortunately I am able to ignore the flash mostly so it goes largely unnoticed to me. However your perfect counter still does not hold any argument. There is 2 dmg difference....even fully upgraded with +15% dmg there is still only 2 dmg difference to armor between the proto lvls of ASCR/AR. The Optimal ranges are the same for both of these weapons. Personally I do think it would be interesting if CCP actually made the weapons act more like their Eve counterparts and made larger differences in the range vs CQC and DPS. However I dont see them ever doing this. Oh bf4 beta? Or you don't play bf?
semperfi1999 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 929	Posted - 2013.09.14 21:04:00 - [66] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately. I have both to officer and I completely disagree get rid of the ******* flash I'm trying to shoot not go blind...and with more people running armor lately that's a perfect counter 80% dmg to armor, what's the counter to ar? Oh yeah nothing cuz its range is far more than its supposed to be I do find the flash annoying but while it is annoying it doesnt detract from the fact that the stats on the ASCR are better than the AR. Some people may have serious issues with the flash fortunately I am able to ignore the flash mostly so it goes largely unnoticed to me. However your perfect counter still does not hold any argument. There is 2 dmg difference....even fully upgraded with +15% dmg there is still only 2 dmg difference to armor between the proto lvls of ASCR/AR. The Optimal ranges are the same for both of these weapons. Personally I do think it would be interesting if CCP actually made the weapons act more like their Eve counterparts and made larger differences in the range vs CQC and DPS. However I dont see them ever doing this. Oh bf4 beta? Or you don't play bf? I might try to get into BF4 beta for PS3. But I probably wont bother buying BF4. Seeing what dice did to BF3...massive swings in buffs/nerfs making tanks too easy to kill at times and then making all air a 1 shot hit against a stinger......and several other issues like these I dont know if I can bring myself to purchase this game. especially since there will be equivalent FTP options on the PS4......that and Destiny looks like it will be taking over my FPS life when it comes out.
Heimdallr69 TeamPlayers EoN. 795	Posted - 2013.09.14 21:26:00 - [67] - Quote Stinger takes 2 now with nothing on your vehicle but all vehicles have flares so really shouldn't get hit more than once but anyways the open beta starts on the 4th or 5th closed on the 1st
semperfi1999 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 929	Posted - 2013.09.14 21:33:00 - [68] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Stinger takes 2 now with nothing on your vehicle but all vehicles have flares so really shouldn't get hit more than once but anyways the open beta starts on the 4th or 5th closed on the 1st Well TBH I was glad that I quit and sold BF3 before they came out with that stupid crossbow. Seriously BF3 became straight up dumb with alot of their DLC stuff.
Den-tredje Baron The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 212	Posted - 2013.09.14 21:43:00 - [69] - Quote Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no ^^ true ACR actually has a decent kick to it. But ok OP you would like the asr nerfed together with the AR (because the ar needs a nerf so i'm not even questioning the ar nerf i'm more or less stating it'll come ) The AR has a decent kick to it (maybe a bit more kick / dispersion) it has a TON !! of damage split quite equally between both armour and shield damage and the range is BEASTLY !! The ar is meant to be high damage so ok even though the damage is quite high that's maybe all right. Then lets look at the range ..... compare it to the ASR ..... wait standard AR got longer range than the ASR have and it's damage is mostly centred towards killing shields and then taking longer time to peel armour of the target. You don't have to nerf the ASR just because the AR needs a nerf. That's like stating buuhuu if one options gets nerfed we better nerf ALL OPTIONS !! The standard AR should have it's range reduced to that of the breach version. (quite a few have already said this OMG !!! good AR nerf suggestions !!)
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1063	Posted - 2013.09.14 21:47:00 - [70] - Quote Im againt the nerf on any weapon. But as a response to Aeon, Nerf the ASCR then! ITs a piece of *** anyway*s. Nobody likes it, because it costs more I$K and a LOT more SP to use than a regular AR.PLUS it has a horrible kick/recoil , horrible muzzle flash that gave my parrot epilepsy and Overheats. Totally the same weapon.... Considering SP investment and I$K price, THe ASCR SHOULD BE VERY superior to the ARs, and as it is, a MLT Scrambler pistol scares me more... Just saying.

Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2917	Posted - 2013.09.14 21:50:00 - [71] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: I have used both the AR/Tac and the ASCR/SCR. The SCR/ASCR is a far superior weapon to the AR. Most people dont seem to realize that the AR once you have fully upgraded does have significantly reduced recoil/dispersion but the ASCR pretty much starts as where the AR finishes with its 1.5 mill SP points into sharpshooter. The sight is better on the ASCR than the AR. Optimal range is similar. ROF is slightly lower for the ASCR but it does 39.6 dmg per shot, DPS is 465.89 with no prof or dmg mods, AR is 467.50....this difference is hardly significant........accuracy for the ASCR is higher than the AR, reload time for the ASCR is higher than for the AR, mag size for the ASCR is 15 rounds more than for the AR. Without even taking into account the different in shield vs armor the ASCR outshines the AR. If you start taking into account the dmg vs shields and armor then you will see the ASCR gets a larger increase to dmg vs shields than its gets a decrease on dmg vs armor (its does 2 less dmg per shot on armor than the AR but it does ~6 dmg more per shot against shields and proficiency only increases the difference in the dmg to shields it makes no change to the difference in dmg to armor). I have fired an entire mag of the ASCR it does not rise at all even when you empty the mag there is no recoil/rise for this weapon...the AR takes about 25-30 shots but it does start to climb significantly at this point so you either have to push your aim down or you have to stop for half a moment to readjust. Basically ASCR is far more effective than the AR......why ppl use the AR......its because they choose to definitely not because it beats out the ASCR. Finally, someone who actually used the weapons and understands what I've been trying to convey to people. Starting to like the Imperfects more and more lately. I have both to officer and I completely disagree get rid of the ***** flash I'm trying to shoot not go blind...and with more people running armor lately that's a perfect counter 80% dmg to armor, what's the counter to ar? Oh yeah nothing cuz its range is far more than its supposed to be I do find the flash annoying but while it is annoying it doesnt detract from the fact that the stats on the ASCR are better than the AR. Some people may have serious issues with the flash fortunately I am able to ignore the flash mostly so it goes largely unnoticed to me. However your perfect counter still does not hold any argument. There is 2 dmg difference....even fully upgraded with +15% dmg there is still only 2 dmg difference to armor between the proto lvls of ASCR/AR. The Optimal ranges are the same for both of these weapons. Personally I do think it would be interesting if CCP actually made the weapons act more like their Eve counterparts and made larger differences in the range vs CQC and DPS. However I dont see them ever doing this. I have very sensitive eyes and that ** pisses me off the people who know me know I've been waiting sinced closed beta for it and now it burns my eyes I hate the ar I've used it every build I've used md tanks forgeguns sr lr and now the scr and I can't hardly use it...and an AR is a blaster short range high damage @ aeon Okay. I understand this. In fact, every post I've ever made in defense of the AR states this. Not sure what you're getting at.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2917	Posted - 2013.09.14 21:51:00 - [72] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Im againt the nerf on any weapon. But as a response to Aeon, Nerf the ASCR then! ITs a piece of *** anyway*s. Nobody likes it, because it costs more I$K and a LOT more SP to use than a regular AR.PLUS it has a horrible kick/recoil , horrible muzzle flash that gave my parrot epilepsy and Overheats. Totally the same weapon.... Considering SP investment and I$K price, THe ASCR SHOULD BE VERY superior to the ARs, and as it is, a MLT Scrambler pistol scares me more... Just saying. If you're having trouble shelling out 7,000 ISK I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but ISK ain't one.
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1063	Posted - 2013.09.14 21:55:00 - [73] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Im againt the nerf on any weapon. But as a response to Aeon, Nerf the ASCR then! ITs a piece of *** anyways. Nobody likes it, because it costs more I$K and a LOT more SP to use than a regular AR.PLUS it has a horrible kick/recoil , horrible muzzle flash that gave my parrot epilepsy and Overheats. Totally the same weapon.... Considering SP investment and I$K price, THe ASCR SHOULD BE VERY superior to the ARs, and as it is, a MLT Scrambler pistol scares me more... Just saying. If you're having trouble shelling out 7,000 ISK I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but ISK ain't one. First off: 7000ISK every 10 deaths its 70000K and im poor,please send 1-5 million over my way in good faith as you are obviously rich. You are not following.You are putting the ASCR and the AR at the same level.They are not. As it is they might have to have their performances reversed,so they match the requirements. AH and i forgot the MASSIVE amount of CPU and PG the ASCR requires, which AR do not since they are cheap as f. :3 By all means, DO NOT NERF THE AR, just BUFF THE ASCR to be better than the AR,as it should be.........
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2917	Posted - 2013.09.14 22:06:00 - [74] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Im againt the nerf on any weapon. But as a response to Aeon, Nerf the ASCR then! ITs a piece of *** anyways. Nobody likes it, because it costs more I$K and a LOT more SP to use than a regular AR.PLUS it has a horrible kick/recoil , horrible muzzle flash that gave my parrot epilepsy and Overheats. Totally the same weapon.... Considering SP investment and I$K price, THe ASCR SHOULD BE VERY superior to the ARs, and as it is, a MLT Scrambler pistol scares me more... Just saying. If you're having trouble shelling out 7,000 ISK I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but ISK ain't one. First off: 7000ISK every 10 deaths its 70000K and im poor,please send 1-5 million over my way in good faith as you are obviously rich. You are not following.You are putting the ASCR and the AR at the same level.They are not. As it is they might have to have their performances reversed,so they match the requirements. AH and i forgot the MASSIVE amount of CPU and PG the ASCR requires, which AR do not since they are cheap as f. :3 By all means, DO NOT NERF THE AR, just BUFF THE ASCR to be better than the AR,as it should be......... God I get so tired of explaining this... Look, the ASCR CPU/PG requirements are because it's intended to be used on Amarr dropsuits - much the same as the AR is supposed to be used with the Gallente (yanno, considering they have reduced CPU/PG for hybrid weapons). If you look at the Amarr dropsuits you'll notice they have higher CPU/PG resources than everyone else, and considering you have less low slots to fill up with armor plates that should help you fit a laser weapon even more. And, yes, the ASCR and AR are at the same level. Same DPS, same general feel minus a few racial perks like the ASCR not having any muzzle climb, and generally the same optimal range with the ASCR having a larger fall off range. Everyone whines and complains that the AR is OP but apparently they've never gone face-to-face with a Carthum ASCR and felt that ridiculous amount of firepower. Even then it's insanely easy to skill into because there aren't as many relative skills associated with it like the Assault Rifle. Cross that with the fact it doesn't even over heat when mashing the trigger for almost two full magazines and you've got a weapon that doesn't have any drawbacks apart from the fact that it does slightly less damage to armor than the AR (a whole 15% of 39.7 damage is a whopping 6 damage - woooo) The ASCR isn't supposed to be better than the AR, not by a long shot. The ASCR is the Amarrian emulation of the AR, it's not supposed to out-perform it much in the same way the Tactical Assault Rifle isn't supposed to outperform the Scrambler Rifle (but it does as far as range is concerned). The Assault Rifle is the Gallente's main variant - this was explained by CCP. Assault Rifle - Gallente AR Burst rifle - Minmatar Combat Rifle Breach Rifle - Caldari Rail Rifle Tactical Assault Rifle - Amarrian Scrambler Rifle They're just emulations of those race's mainstay. It's like Equate against Tylenol, it performs similarly but you're still going to get more bang for your buck if you go with the real thing.
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1063	Posted - 2013.09.14 22:43:00 - [75] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: God I get so tired of explaining this... Look, the ASCR CPU/PG requirements are because it's intended to be used on Amarr dropsuits - YOu got it wrong, there is no WEAPON designed to be used with a specific suit.The AMARR ASSAULT is designed to easier fit the ASCR.The CPU-PG cost is still massive for the ASCR and there by it should be comparably better. And, yes, the ASCR and AR are at the same level. Same DPS, same general feel minus a few racial perks like the ASCR not having any muzzle climb, and generally the same optimal range with the ASCR having a larger fall off range. Everyone whines and complains that the AR is OP but apparently they've never gone face-to-face with a Carthum ASCR and felt that ridiculous amount of firepower. - Im not saying the AR is OP.But you are comparing to very different weapons,to be hones the only thing they have in common is that they are full auto. As it is is like saying the HMG is the same as an AR lol.ASCR has more RECOIL and dispersion rate,something that a LASER weapon should not have , much less id AR doesnt have it...CArthum ASCR is still inferior to the Duvolle. The Duvolle hits 58 out of 60 at mid/long range while the ASCR , between the dispersion , recoil,muzzle flash , etc... doesnt. Even then it's insanely easy to skill into because there aren't as many relative skills associated with it like the Assault Rifle. -Making the AR a lot better,since it has more skills to perfect an already powerful weapon. Cross that with the fact it doesn't even over heat when mashing the trigger for almost two full magazines and you've got a weapon that doesn't have any drawbacks apart from the fact that it does slightly less damage to armor than the AR (a whole 15% of 39.7 damage is a whopping 6 damage - woooo) The weapon does overheat if you just leave R1 mashed. OBVIOUSLY you dont sincerely think the ASCR is better nor equal than the ASCR, because you use an AR. EVERYBODY KNOWS the AR is far superior, thats why 90% of the people prefer an AR over the ASCR, common choice is the final number when it comes to what weapon is better. You are just saying it because you are scared and afraid that they will nerf the AR, dont worry they wont.I think the AR is at a good place right now and it nothing compared to true firepower (my imperial Scrambler rifle) The ASCR isn't supposed to be better than the AR, not by a long shot. The ASCR is the Amarrian emulation of the AR, it's not supposed to out-perform it much in the same way the Tactical Assault Rifle isn't supposed to outperform the Scrambler Rifle (but it does as far as range is concerned).-Being a laser weapon it SHOULD , have less recoil and more range.Considering the difference in CPU-PG the damage should (and is) be greater than the AR. The Assault Rifle is the Gallente's main variant - this was explained by CCP. Assault Rifle - Gallente AR Burst rifle - Minmatar Combat Rifle Breach Rifle - Caldari Rail Rifle Tactical Assault Rifle - Amarrian Scrambler Rifle They're just emulations of those race's mainstay. It's like Equate against Tylenol, it performs similarly but you're still going to get more bang for your buck if you go with the real thing. The difference is way to big. The ASCR is by no means better than a AR,unless you consider CQ being your only way of engaging. PLUS as it is, you say : ''it performs similarly but you're still going to get more bang for your buck if you go with the real thing.'' but besides the fact i can charge a shot,i feel the Duvolle tac is still superior to my imperial scrambler rifle,BY A LONG SHOT.... Again , im against nerfs, but dont try to take down an already underused weapon down with your precious AR...
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2917	Posted - 2013.09.14 22:45:00 - [76] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: God I get so tired of explaining this... Look, the ASCR CPU/PG requirements are because it's intended to be used on Amarr dropsuits - YOu got it wrong, there is no WEAPON designed to be used with a specific suit.The AMARR ASSAULT is designed to easier fit the ASCR.The CPU-PG cost is still massive for the ASCR and there by it should be comparably better. And, yes, the ASCR and AR are at the same level. Same DPS, same general feel minus a few racial perks like the ASCR not having any muzzle climb, and generally the same optimal range with the ASCR having a larger fall off range. Everyone whines and complains that the AR is OP but apparently they've never gone face-to-face with a Carthum ASCR and felt that ridiculous amount of firepower. - Im not saying the AR is OP.But you are comparing to very different weapons,to be hones the only thing they have in common is that they are full auto. As it is is like saying the HMG is the same as an AR lol.ASCR has more RECOIL and dispersion rate,something that a LASER weapon should not have , much less id AR doesnt have it...CArthum ASCR is still inferior to the Duvolle. The Duvolle hits 58 out of 60 at mid/long range while the ASCR , between the dispersion , recoil,muzzle flash , etc... doesnt. Even then it's insanely easy to skill into because there aren't as many relative skills associated with it like the Assault Rifle. -Making the AR a lot better,since it has more skills to perfect an already powerful weapon. Cross that with the fact it doesn't even over heat when mashing the trigger for almost two full magazines and you've got a weapon that doesn't have any drawbacks apart from the fact that it does slightly less damage to armor than the AR (a whole 15% of 39.7 damage is a whopping 6 damage - woooo) The weapon does overheat if you just leave R1 mashed. OBVIOUSLY you dont sincerely think the ASCR is better nor equal than the ASCR, because you use an AR. EVERYBODY KNOWS the AR is far superior, thats why 90% of the people prefer an AR over the ASCR, common choice is the final number when it comes to what weapon is better. You are just saying it because you are scared and afraid that they will nerf the AR, dont worry they wont.I think the AR is at a good place right now and it nothing compared to true firepower (my imperial Scrambler rifle) The ASCR isn't supposed to be better than the AR, not by a long shot. The ASCR is the Amarrian emulation of the AR, it's not supposed to out-perform it much in the same way the Tactical Assault Rifle isn't supposed to outperform the Scrambler Rifle (but it does as far as range is concerned).-Being a laser weapon it SHOULD , have less recoil and more range.Considering the difference in CPU-PG the damage should (and is) be greater than the AR. The Assault Rifle is the Gallente's main variant - this was explained by CCP. Assault Rifle - Gallente AR Burst rifle - Minmatar Combat Rifle Breach Rifle - Caldari Rail Rifle Tactical Assault Rifle - Amarrian Scrambler Rifle They're just emulations of those race's mainstay. It's like Equate against Tylenol, it performs similarly but you're still going to get more bang for your buck if you go with the real thing. The difference is way to big. The ASCR is by no means better than a AR,unless you consider CQ being your only way of engaging. PLUS as it is, you say : ''it performs similarly but you're still going to get more bang for your buck if you go with the real thing.'' but besides the fact i can charge a shot,i feel the Duvolle tac is still superior to my imperial scrambler rifle,BY A LONG SHOT.... Again , im against nerfs, but dont try to take down an already underused weapon down with your precious AR... Quite the contrary, I'm trying to make them more diverse so that they have their own play style traits. Want range and shield damage? Go Scrambler Want high damage and balance? Go Assault Rifle Want fire rate and armor damage? Combat Rifle Then whatever the hell the Rail Rifle is supposed to be.
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. 186	Posted - 2013.09.14 23:43:00 - [77] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I have proficiency into both weapons. The AR is better down the sights than the AScR, but the AScR is better whilst hipfiring than the AR is. If anything the AR should lose range but get more damage to be more Gallentean and the AScR shouldn't kick at all, because it's, you know... A laser, in return the AScR should get a stupidly tight hipfire (I'm thinking laser rifle hipfire) to make it hard to use in close quarters (where lasers are traditionally lacking), and lowered damage per second in close quarters. Their roles are backwards right now, the laser is supposed to destroy at medium-long range and the AR is supposed to be the best rifle at close range.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2917	Posted - 2013.09.14 23:46:00 - [78] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I have proficiency into both weapons. The AR is better down the sights than the AScR, but the AScR is better whilst hipfiring than the AR is. If anything the AR should lose range but get more damage to be more Gallentean and the AScR shouldn't kick at all, because it's, you know... A laser, in return the AScR should get a stupidly tight hipfire (I'm thinking laser rifle hipfire) to make it hard to use in close quarters (where lasers are traditionally lacking), and lowered damage per second in close quarters. Their roles are backwards right now, the laser is supposed to destroy at medium-long range and the AR is supposed to be the best rifle at close range. Has kick but no muzzle climb, so it kinda works out.
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. 186	Posted - 2013.09.14 23:59:00 - [79] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I have proficiency into both weapons. The AR is better down the sights than the AScR, but the AScR is better whilst hipfiring than the AR is. If anything the AR should lose range but get more damage to be more Gallentean and the AScR shouldn't kick at all, because it's, you know... A laser, in return the AScR should get a stupidly tight hipfire (I'm thinking laser rifle hipfire) to make it hard to use in close quarters (where lasers are traditionally lacking), and lowered damage per second in close quartersp Their roles are backwards right now, the laser is supposed to destroy at medium-long range and the AR is supposed to be the best rifle at close range. Has kick but no muzzle climb, so it kinda works out. It doesn't have predictable muzzle climb, which the AR does have, making it easier to control. The AScR kicks in all directions with no preference for direction, and is therefore harder to control while ADS. A steady upward muzzle climb is actually very preferable in an automatic weapon, as it helps to land headshots.
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 462	Posted - 2013.09.15 00:04:00 - [80] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I hear a lot of talk about recoil and dispersion but inevitably I always answer it the same way: Recoil does not make the Assault Rifle overpowered. Any weapon is going to be accurate as the dickens when aiming down the sights and when you implement "dispersion" in a hit scan based system, it's almost entirely cosmetic and ultimately arbitrary. You're not firing rounds, you're firing a vector that intersects with another line and inevitably stops. This is not Battlefield 3, there are no bullet physics. Dispersion is entirely client based and you can readily see this just based on observation, and it applies with almost all first person shooters - save those that have extensive game design around bullet physics like Battlefield 3 and the Sniper franchise. A good example of this is the "headshot glitch" in which they are able to fire at you because the rounds come from their camera, which is located in their head and not the weapon. Recoil, on the other hand, is slightly more prominent. It usually doesn't kick in until you're about halfway through the magazine but either way you should be firing in bursts anyway and even if the recoil is ten times that of any other weapon you can manage it just by firing in smaller bursts. Tapping the R1 button reduces the recoil so significantly that a thread regarding the phenomenon actually made it on the "feedback/discussions weekly report" that CCP does, and it was functioning as intended. Because it is. All games do this. The reason this is important information is because inevitably it falls back on the fact that it's a vector and there's no way to simulate dispersion without the dreaded "random bullet spread" effect. When you fire at a wall, you see the rounds impact in multiple areas - whereas another player will see the rounds land in a single location. Now, I could go on and talk about all the game mechanics for hours but inevitably what's important is the disparity between the Assault Rifle and the Scrambler Rifle/Assault Scrambler Rifle. The design philosophy is that the Assault Rifle is meant for high damage, low range engagements - a stark contrast to, say, the Rail Rifle which is the exact opposite. The Scrambler Rifle is intended to come in at a close second in terms of range engagement. If you compare the Assault Rifle and Scrambler Rifle variants, you'll notice that this is -mostly- true as the Assault Scrambler Rifle does have a higher effective range while retaining a similar optimal range, as indicated here: http://i.imgur.com/krRr5EZ.png The issue, however, is that both have roughly the same DPS. One has higher damage with lower fire rate, the other has lower damage with higher fire rate. If the Assault Rifle is intended to be a high damage weapon with low range, inevitably it falls back on how it compares to the Assault Scrambler Rifle's range. If both have the same DPS (which, they do) than the range is a buff against the Assault Rifle. I've honestly been curious as to why the Assault Scrambler Rifle hasn't been used more frequently as it's a fierce weapon to compete against on the field even with Assault Rifle Proficiency 4, but I digress. The Assault Rifle does not need a Recoil/Dispersion nerf. Range doesn't mean anything if you're not accurate enough to engage at those ranges and taking away from this will increase the disparity in a negative way. On the other hand, you can reduce the optimal range slighty (at the most by 10 meters) so that the range scales accordingly, but even then this is too much of a difference as the Assault Scrambler Rifle isn't intended to have the highest range. With which, you have to be careful how you proceed. Reason being? If you reduce the range on the Assault Rifle, all of a sudden the Assault Scrambler Rifle is a much better alternative due to it's similar DPS output, negligible overheat mechanic and better performance at range. If you reduce the range on the Assault Rifle, you have to reduce the damage on the Assault Scrambler Rifle, otherwise there isn't enough diversity in the play style to matter - one is obviously better than the other. Almost all of the issues presented, like Recoil/Dispersion, is entirely circumstantial. Sure, it does really good headshot damage but considering that the Scrambler Pistol does 400% of it's normal damage on a headshot, you can't use it as a legitimate argument because there are weapons that out perform the Assault Rifle for that reason. Dispersion is very easily similated using hitscan programming, all you do is add a random angle on x and y axis, it the makes the hitscan call follow a ranom vector, thats why you don't see all that much dispersion on the ar, as for kick it definitely needs more kick. And the AScR that nedds a faster overheat, and less overheat reduction from amarian suit!

Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2918	Posted - 2013.09.15 00:30:00 - [81] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I have proficiency into both weapons. The AR is better down the sights than the AScR, but the AScR is better whilst hipfiring than the AR is. If anything the AR should lose range but get more damage to be more Gallentean and the AScR shouldn't kick at all, because it's, you know... A laser, in return the AScR should get a stupidly tight hipfire (I'm thinking laser rifle hipfire) to make it hard to use in close quarters (where lasers are traditionally lacking), and lowered damage per second in close quartersp Their roles are backwards right now, the laser is supposed to destroy at medium-long range and the AR is supposed to be the best rifle at close range. Has kick but no muzzle climb, so it kinda works out. It doesn't have predictable muzzle climb, which the AR does have, making it easier to control. The AScR kicks in all directions with no preference for direction, and is therefore harder to control while ADS. A steady upward muzzle climb is actually very preferable in an automatic weapon, as it helps to land headshots. Yet again I repeat myself. No. Muzzle. Climb. None. At all. There is none. You can fire for days and it will stay on target no matter what.
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. 187	Posted - 2013.09.15 00:40:00 - [82] - Quote Quote: If anything the AR should lose range but get more damage to be more Gallentean and the AScR shouldn't kick at all, because it's, you know... A laser, in return the AScR should get a stupidly tight hipfire (I'm thinking laser rifle hipfire) to make it hard to use in close quarters (where lasers are traditionally lacking), and lowered damage per second in close quartersp Their roles are backwards right now, the laser is supposed to destroy at medium-long range and the AR is supposed to be the best rifle at close range. Has kick but no muzzle climb, so it kinda works out.[/quote] It doesn't have predictable muzzle climb, which the AR does have, making it easier to control. The AScR kicks in all directions with no preference for direction, and is therefore harder to control while ADS. A steady upward muzzle climb is actually very preferable in an automatic weapon, as it helps to land headshots.[/quote] Yet again I repeat myself. No. Muzzle. Climb. None. At all. There is none. You can fire for days and it will stay on target no matter what.[/quote] Wait. What weapon are we talking about? I don't think we are on the same page here.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2918	Posted - 2013.09.15 01:52:00 - [83] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Quote: If anything the AR should lose range but get more damage to be more Gallentean and the AScR shouldn't kick at all, because it's, you know... A laser, in return the AScR should get a stupidly tight hipfire (I'm thinking laser rifle hipfire) to make it hard to use in close quarters (where lasers are traditionally lacking), and lowered damage per second in close quartersp Their roles are backwards right now, the laser is supposed to destroy at medium-long range and the AR is supposed to be the best rifle at close range. Has kick but no muzzle climb, so it kinda works out. It doesn't have predictable muzzle climb, which the AR does have, making it easier to control. The AScR kicks in all directions with no preference for direction, and is therefore harder to control while ADS. A steady upward muzzle climb is actually very preferable in an automatic weapon, as it helps to land headshots.[/quote] Yet again I repeat myself. No. Muzzle. Climb. None. At all. There is none. You can fire for days and it will stay on target no matter what.[/quote] Wait. What weapon are we talking about? I don't think we are on the same page here.[/quote] AScR. I have a video detailing this. No skills - both weapons are Aurum variants. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA-muXHo5pc
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1495	Posted - 2013.09.15 03:22:00 - [84] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: None. At all. There is none. You can fire for days and it will stay on target no matter what. This is not true. The shots start going wild, and while the gun does not start going up the shots get further and further from center. Granted this is easily countered by firing in bursts, but if you never let go of the trigger you'll stop hitting your target. Monkey MAC wrote: And the AScR that nedds a faster overheat, and less overheat reduction from amarian suit! I agree with the first part of the sentence, but the second part makes me a little angry (blame the whiskey...). The Amarr suits would be too weak without having their awesome bonuses. Every other suit has great slot layouts and is faster. The amarr need to have some kickass racial specs to stay competitive.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2921	Posted - 2013.09.15 07:04:00 - [85] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: None. At all. There is none. You can fire for days and it will stay on target no matter what. This is not true. The shots start going wild, and while the gun does not start going up the shots get further and further from center. Granted this is easily countered by firing in bursts, but if you never let go of the trigger you'll stop hitting your target. Monkey MAC wrote: And the AScR that nedds a faster overheat, and less overheat reduction from amarian suit! I agree with the first part of the sentence, but the second part makes me a little angry (blame the whiskey...). The Amarr suits would be too weak without having their awesome bonuses. Every other suit has great slot layouts and is faster. The amarr need to have some kickass racial specs to stay competitive. Watch the video. Just.... Watch the video dude....


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