DUST Search - If you nerf the AR, you have to nerf the ASR

Draco Cerberus wrote:

Talos Alomar wrote:

This might be a problem we're approaching in the wrong fashion. Direct nerfs/buffs to any weapon might just make the problem worse.

Every weapon needs a militia variant. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, as who the hell is going to dump 50k sp just to try out a new weapon when they're first starting? they're going to use weapons they can try for free, and due to inertia they'll likely stick with that weapon for quite some time.

It might also be a good idea to raise the AR's fitting costs. It might not seem like much but it would make Ar users have to use lower level mods making them weaker as a whole instead of the juggernauts they are. It seems odd to me that the weapon with the highest DPS also has some of the lowest fitting costs.

better all around performance should mean higher all around fitting costs.

The fitting cost for a Duvolle is already absurdly high making it tough to fit on any proto suit other than the Assault variants. This is already in place. The problem is still a damage type issue. We have no built in resistance to any type of weapons and the ones that do more to a certain type of tank (shield or armor) cannot be tanked for other than with more buffer. Please check out this thread which provides an excellent way to protect yourself on the battlefield.

Resistance Thread


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Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 902	Posted - 2013.09.13 08:52:00 - [1] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I use both Aeon. Both AR and SCR and maxed out for me. The Assault Scrambler when used in ADS, has instant dispersion. You can see it through the projectile and bullet impact animation (if that even relates to the actual vectors). I'm not as accurate with the Assault Scrambler at long range, as I am with the AR; before 1.4 part of the reason for this was the muzzle flash. Using the ASCR in ADS had a blinding muzzle flash, which incrementally damaged your ability to track targets at range. It was very subtle but it was there. But now during 1.4, the muzzle flash was toned down slightly, and I'm still having trouble tracking guys at range with the ASCR, simply because of its dispersion. I don't mind its dispersion, it's perfectly reasonable. I often believe the AR should have a similar dispersion. But, since we got a cooldown buff I've been using the SCR exclusively. SCR > ASCR, since it can pull off a few more shots now before OH. If the anything needs to happen, I would swap the recoil and dispersion behaviors of both guns. Give the ASCR the rock steady aim in ADS, and have it gradually degrade, and give the AR the 100% consistent and steady moderate recoil. Another remedy would be to give the scrambler rifles a Sharpshooter skill.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 907	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:07:00 - [2] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle Suppose I stand corrected but I'm sure that philosophy has evolved since then. It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I don't think anything needs to happen to the AR much. Just give it instant dispersion when it starts shooting, instead of having it fire perfect lines for the first 15 rounds, and it'll be fine. That will limit it's accuracy at long range, which is what everyone is pissed off about. You don't need to reduce the ARs damage, RoF, or optimal or effective ranges. Just keep the dispersion the same, but have it start the moment you start firing. Just like the ASCR.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 909	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:32:00 - [3] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: This might be a problem we're approaching in the wrong fashion. Direct nerfs/buffs to any weapon might just make the problem worse. Every weapon needs a militia variant. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, as who the hell is going to dump 50k sp just to try out a new weapon when they're first starting? they're going to use weapons they can try for free, and due to inertia they'll likely stick with that weapon for quite some time. It might also be a good idea to raise the AR's fitting costs. It might not seem like much but it would make Ar users have to use lower level mods making them weaker as a whole instead of the juggernauts they are. It seems odd to me that the weapon with the highest DPS also has some of the lowest fitting costs. better all around performance should mean higher all around fitting costs. The fitting cost for a Duvolle is already absurdly high making it tough to fit on any proto suit other than the Assault variants. This is already in place. The problem is still a damage type issue. We have no built in resistance to any type of weapons and the ones that do more to a certain type of tank (shield or armor) cannot be tanked for other than with more buffer. Please check out this thread which provides an excellent way to protect yourself on the battlefield. Resistance Thread I don't think many know how to take advantage of the damage profiles in the game. I don't remotely see assault rifles as a problem generally. Generally, I am fighting Caldari assaults with ARs. So I play the natural counter to them which is a Gallente suit with a scrambler rifle. Not only are they doing less than optimal damage to me, but with proficiency and damage mods on my scrambler, I am doing nearly DOUBLE damage to them. I can take a STD scrambler and drop a proto Caldari with a Duvolle in an instant because of this. Literally 3-5 hits. I've gotten mail asking me "how did you vaporize 600 ehp instantly like that?" The answer is simple. The fit is a Caldari Killer. I like your thread, but what's to stop everyone from simply tanking out an Amarr suit, and say.... making shields resistant to hybrid and laser weapons, and making their armor resistant to projectile and explosives? If people hate the concept of dual tanking, that would only perpetuate the problem. As theoretically, that system can nearly eliminate almost all weaknesses. I do like the efficiency indicator concept from EVE as well though. At the same time we have similar systems already in game right now. Right now, you ARE able to tell what suit someone has on when you aim at them, and you CAN see how effective the weapon you're using is. What I would like is for damage mod percentage to be visibly added to the damage profile indicator when you aim at someone. So you can see, EXACTLY what your final damage tally is going to be when you shoot. It's good to bear in mind, that we will be getting additional weapons in 1.5. These will come with their own profiles as well. What I think would be good is a general hardener function for both shields and armor. Shields harden but don't recharge. Armor hardens, but slows you down.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 910	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:39:00 - [4] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Jathniel wrote: It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I'm guessing they're using the breach rifle to balance a higher damage per shot but lower rate of fire weapon for CQC, and the rail rifle will function in a similar manner but with much better range. Much better range. We've already seen this before... http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/07/weapon-ranges-in-uprising-1.2-and-beyond/ It bugs me that you got a Pistol AND an SMG listed under "long range". We'll see what happens assuming they come 1.5. I anticipate the AR is going to be least of people's problems.