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Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2843	Posted - 2013.09.13 02:21:00 - [1] - Quote I hear a lot of talk about recoil and dispersion but inevitably I always answer it the same way: Recoil does not make the Assault Rifle overpowered. Any weapon is going to be accurate as the dickens when aiming down the sights and when you implement "dispersion" in a hit scan based system, it's almost entirely cosmetic and ultimately arbitrary. You're not firing rounds, you're firing a vector that intersects with another line and inevitably stops. This is not Battlefield 3, there are no bullet physics. Dispersion is entirely client based and you can readily see this just based on observation, and it applies with almost all first person shooters - save those that have extensive game design around bullet physics like Battlefield 3 and the Sniper franchise. A good example of this is the "headshot glitch" in which they are able to fire at you because the rounds come from their camera, which is located in their head and not the weapon. Recoil, on the other hand, is slightly more prominent. It usually doesn't kick in until you're about halfway through the magazine but either way you should be firing in bursts anyway and even if the recoil is ten times that of any other weapon you can manage it just by firing in smaller bursts. Tapping the R1 button reduces the recoil so significantly that a thread regarding the phenomenon actually made it on the "feedback/discussions weekly report" that CCP does, and it was functioning as intended. Because it is. All games do this. The reason this is important information is because inevitably it falls back on the fact that it's a vector and there's no way to simulate dispersion without the dreaded "random bullet spread" effect. When you fire at a wall, you see the rounds impact in multiple areas - whereas another player will see the rounds land in a single location. Now, I could go on and talk about all the game mechanics for hours but inevitably what's important is the disparity between the Assault Rifle and the Scrambler Rifle/Assault Scrambler Rifle. The design philosophy is that the Assault Rifle is meant for high damage, low range engagements - a stark contrast to, say, the Rail Rifle which is the exact opposite. The Scrambler Rifle is intended to come in at a close second in terms of range engagement. If you compare the Assault Rifle and Scrambler Rifle variants, you'll notice that this is -mostly- true as the Assault Scrambler Rifle does have a higher effective range while retaining a similar optimal range, as indicated here: http://i.imgur.com/krRr5EZ.png The issue, however, is that both have roughly the same DPS. One has higher damage with lower fire rate, the other has lower damage with higher fire rate. If the Assault Rifle is intended to be a high damage weapon with low range, inevitably it falls back on how it compares to the Assault Scrambler Rifle's range. If both have the same DPS (which, they do) than the range is a buff against the Assault Rifle. I've honestly been curious as to why the Assault Scrambler Rifle hasn't been used more frequently as it's a fierce weapon to compete against on the field even with Assault Rifle Proficiency 4, but I digress. The Assault Rifle does not need a Recoil/Dispersion nerf. Range doesn't mean anything if you're not accurate enough to engage at those ranges and taking away from this will increase the disparity in a negative way. On the other hand, you can reduce the optimal range slighty (at the most by 10 meters) so that the range scales accordingly, but even then this is too much of a difference as the Assault Scrambler Rifle isn't intended to have the highest range. With which, you have to be careful how you proceed. Reason being? If you reduce the range on the Assault Rifle, all of a sudden the Assault Scrambler Rifle is a much better alternative due to it's similar DPS output, negligible overheat mechanic and better performance at range. If you reduce the range on the Assault Rifle, you have to reduce the damage on the Assault Scrambler Rifle, otherwise there isn't enough diversity in the play style to matter - one is obviously better than the other. Almost all of the issues presented, like Recoil/Dispersion, is entirely circumstantial. Sure, it does really good headshot damage but considering that the Scrambler Pistol does 400% of it's normal damage on a headshot, you can't use it as a legitimate argument because there are weapons that out perform the Assault Rifle for that reason.
Heimdallr69 TeamPlayers EoN. 787	Posted - 2013.09.13 02:42:00 - [2] - Quote Ar is better than scr this is just pathetic lmfao ar range is wayyy to much for its purpose its supposed to have the range of like the breach short range high dmg
Beck Weathers High-Damage 55	Posted - 2013.09.13 02:46:00 - [3] - Quote ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2844	Posted - 2013.09.13 03:33:00 - [4] - Quote Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1486	Posted - 2013.09.13 03:36:00 - [5] - Quote This might be a problem we're approaching in the wrong fashion. Direct nerfs/buffs to any weapon might just make the problem worse. Every weapon needs a militia variant. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, as who the hell is going to dump 50k sp just to try out a new weapon when they're first starting? they're going to use weapons they can try for free, and due to inertia they'll likely stick with that weapon for quite some time. It might also be a good idea to raise the AR's fitting costs. It might not seem like much but it would make Ar users have to use lower level mods making them weaker as a whole instead of the juggernauts they are. It seems odd to me that the weapon with the highest DPS also has some of the lowest fitting costs. better all around performance should mean higher all around fitting costs.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1486	Posted - 2013.09.13 03:49:00 - [6] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I have 0 points into ARs, so my main experience is using the 'Exile' on various shitfits, but the AR has noticeably better recoil. Which is rather odd considering that the ASCR shoots light... The higher base damage does make up for it slightly, but the AR's ability to put all of it's dps right on target gives it a bit of an edge.
Magnus Amadeuss DUST University Ivy League 42	Posted - 2013.09.13 03:50:00 - [7] - Quote I can use both proto ARs and proto ScRs, and I can tell you without a doubt that the AR is the superior weapon. The AScR is a joke compared to the AR, as the kick and muzzle flash severely impacts accuracy, and with having trained only 1 level in AR sharpshooter skill (i.e. not much difference from stock) that the grouping on the AR is incredibly tighter. This difference only gets magnified the farther you go, and as such the AScR is near unusable past 50 m without constant trigger feathering. The AR remains accurate out to 80m no problem. Sure, DPS of both weapons would be a good bit too much given their ranges, that is assuming that they both performed the same at range. This is of course a false assumption. If you want to be deadly with the AScR you need to be closer.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 717	Posted - 2013.09.13 03:56:00 - [8] - Quote nerf the ar into the hall of tanks and flaylocks.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 902	Posted - 2013.09.13 08:52:00 - [9] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I use both Aeon. Both AR and SCR and maxed out for me. The Assault Scrambler when used in ADS, has instant dispersion. You can see it through the projectile and bullet impact animation (if that even relates to the actual vectors). I'm not as accurate with the Assault Scrambler at long range, as I am with the AR; before 1.4 part of the reason for this was the muzzle flash. Using the ASCR in ADS had a blinding muzzle flash, which incrementally damaged your ability to track targets at range. It was very subtle but it was there. But now during 1.4, the muzzle flash was toned down slightly, and I'm still having trouble tracking guys at range with the ASCR, simply because of its dispersion. I don't mind its dispersion, it's perfectly reasonable. I often believe the AR should have a similar dispersion. But, since we got a cooldown buff I've been using the SCR exclusively. SCR > ASCR, since it can pull off a few more shots now before OH. If the anything needs to happen, I would swap the recoil and dispersion behaviors of both guns. Give the ASCR the rock steady aim in ADS, and have it gradually degrade, and give the AR the 100% consistent and steady moderate recoil. Another remedy would be to give the scrambler rifles a Sharpshooter skill.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2852	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:05:00 - [10] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: I can use both proto ARs and proto ScRs, and I can tell you without a doubt that the AR is the superior weapon. The AScR is a joke compared to the AR, as the kick and muzzle flash severely impacts accuracy, and with having trained only 1 level in AR sharpshooter skill (i.e. not much difference from stock) that the grouping on the AR is incredibly tighter. This difference only gets magnified the farther you go, and as such the AScR is near unusable past 50 m without constant trigger feathering. The AR remains accurate out to 80m no problem. Sure, DPS of both weapons would be a good bit too much given their ranges, that is assuming that they both performed the same at range. This is of course a false assumption. If you want to be deadly with the AScR you need to be closer. You still have to burst the AR at longer ranges if you want to hit anything. True, it's recoil doesn't kick in (to full effect) until about half way through the magazine but again I'll point out that Dispersion is cosmetic and Recoil is simulated. You're firing straight lines - there is no such thing as dispersion or recoil in the traditional sense of the terminology. As far as the flashing lights disrupting accuracy mentioned earlier, that's an issue with game design and not the mechanics themselves. You can't attribute the weapon having a flaw in it's accuracy because you cannot physically see the target beyond the muzzle flash of the weapon - that's a player aspect and can be changed by the effects team. Despite the claims that these weapons have higher kick/dispersion or whatever terminology you choose to use - there's no definitive way (that I know of) to gauge it because of the issues mentioned in the first post. Unless CCP Wolfman comes in and shows us the differences in "recoil" and exactly how it operates, it's left largely to speculation and the only true way to test it is a side by side video comparison. Something I'm not yet convinced anyone has done. I deal in factual information. I'm not going to say that Recoil/Dispersion is an issue or a non-issue between the weapons because there is no accurate way to gauge it. It's too abstract with what is provided to us other than general feel of the user - but with that I'll say that there are many videos on youtube on how to effectively counter recoil in an FPS.

Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2853	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:09:00 - [11] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: ASR actualy has some major kick to it which throws off its AIm, which the AR is in dire need of. So no I'm curious to the proportion of players that actually use both. Every one that I know agrees that recoil and dispersion is a non-factor. Edit: And, again - if you nerf the AR in any way you have to nerf the ASR so that it fits within it's combat philosophy. Just saying. You can't have the cake and eat it to. I use both Aeon. Both AR and SCR and maxed out for me. The Assault Scrambler when used in ADS, has instant dispersion. You can see it through the projectile and bullet impact animation (if that even relates to the actual vectors). I'm not as accurate with the Assault Scrambler at long range, as I am with the AR; before 1.4 part of the reason for this was the muzzle flash. Using the ASCR in ADS had a blinding muzzle flash, which incrementally damaged your ability to track targets at range. It was very subtle but it was there. But now during 1.4, the muzzle flash was toned down slightly, and I'm still having trouble tracking guys at range with the ASCR, simply because of its dispersion. I don't mind its dispersion, it's perfectly reasonable. I often believe the AR should have a similar dispersion. But, since we got a cooldown buff I've been using the SCR exclusively. SCR > ASCR, since it can pull off a few more shots now before OH. If the anything needs to happen, I would swap the recoil and dispersion behaviors of both guns. Give the ASCR the rock steady aim in ADS, and have it gradually degrade, and give the AR the 100% consistent and steady moderate recoil. Another remedy would be to give the scrambler rifles a Sharpshooter skill. I can agree to giving it a sharpshooter skill. I think that would be the best course of action before tossing out nerfs/buffs because of the wailing masses that are inevitably complaining, not because Assault Rifles are over-powered, but because Aim Assist allowed them to shine and people simply don't know how to counter them. I'm adamant that the range can be adjusted before doing anything as drastic as changing recoil and dispersion, ultimately changing the performance of the weapon. There are plenty of avenues we haven't approached yet and I think we've all learned that you can't leave it to CCP to listen to the community without over-doing it, less we have another broken weapon like the Breach Assault Rifle or the Tactical Assault Rifle pre-Uprising.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 179	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:13:00 - [12] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Ar is better than scr this is just pathetic lmfao ar range is wayyy to much for its purpose its supposed to have the range of like the breach short range high dmg Your are absolutlely right the AR needs its range tone done and the Ror or Damage buffed (slightly), well yu could also nerf the dps troughout the other Assault rifle variants ^^. The GAR should have the highest DPS and the lowest Range. The AsCR is in fact quite comparable o the AR but there are some aspects that make the AR more desirable. 1. The AR gets a huge accuracy boost through skills 25% reduction in recoil and another 25% reduction to dispersion is quite a lot. 2. The AR has a militia and a std variant whereas the AsCR is an advanced weapon that unlocks on lvl 4. 3. The AR has std blueprints that makes the weapon quite attractive 4. Everybody has an AR milita blueprint through starter fits so everybody has acces to the AR without SP investment
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2853	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:14:00 - [13] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Ar is better than scr this is just pathetic lmfao ar range is wayyy to much for its purpose its supposed to have the range of like the breach short range high dmg Your are absolutlely right the AR needs its range tone done and the Ror or Damage buffed (slightly), well yu could also nerf the dps troughout the other Assault rifle variants ^^. The GAR should have the highest DPS and the lowest Range. The AsCR is in fact quite comparable o the AR but there are some aspects that make the AR more desirable. 1. The AR gets a huge accuracy boost through skills 25% reduction in recoil and another 25% reduction to dispersion is quite a lot. 2. The AR has a militia and a std variant whereas the AsCR is an advanced weapon that unlocks on lvl 4. 3. The AR has std blueprints that makes the weapon quite attractive 4. Everybody has an AR milita blueprint through starter fits so everybody has acces to the AR without SP investment Going to make another thread to get a point across... Edit: Meh. Decided against it. People would foam at the mouth and have a brain aneurism. How's about, instead of increasing the recoil and dispersion on assault rifles (yanno, since AR Operation reduces it anyway and the argument is skewed because of it) we just remove the recoil and dispersion on the Scrambler Rifle and put the two in line with one another..? Simple enough solution and it doesn't require breaking everything.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2853	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:47:00 - [14] - Quote Tested, performed and data compiled. AR has less recoil due to skills, ASR has absolutely no muzzle climb. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1295853#post1295853
General12912 Gallente Marine Corps Dark Taboo 18	Posted - 2013.09.13 09:48:00 - [15] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Ar is better than scr this is just pathetic lmfao ar range is wayyy to much for its purpose its supposed to have the range of like the breach short range high dmg Are you CCP? I think not. Don't say what a weapon they made is supposed to be like. If you nerf the range, the tactical/burst ar would be useless
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 924	Posted - 2013.09.13 11:42:00 - [16] - Quote The Assault Rifle is good at long, medium, and short range engagements, and the skills you get for it make it have even less dispersion and kick, allowing you to basically fire an automatic sniper rifle. The downside to the AR is that you run out of ammo quickly, but as long as you have nanohives and such you're fine. You don't have any disadvantage unless you're trying to shoot across the map. You nerf the assault rifle by adding some more dispersion or kick, and it makes long range engagements not worth it. This FORCES assault rifles to stick to medium range engagements, and to get closer to their opponent, while still keeping the massive damage output that assault rifles need at this range. ____________________ The Assault Scrambler Rifle has two variants: -ADV (Less accurate, better at close-medium range) -Proto (Very accurate, good at both long and short ranges) The biggest advantage the scrambler has over the AR is the range factor. The problem is that the ADV version has to get into the AR's optimal range in order to compete with it since at long range it just doesn't land enough hits. This is because of two reasons: -There are no skills that reduce kick or dispersion for the scrambler -The kick and dispersion is already greater than the AR for the ADV version. So what ends up happening is that the AR lands more hits than an assault scrambler, and getting closer to make the gun hit more often only causes the AR to be more effective. If you nerf the scrambler, you're just making the weapon suck even more than it does now. The reason why the assault variant is balanced whereas the AR is not is because you can't turn a scrambler into an automatic sniper, and have to rely on staying within a certain range. These same limits need to apply to the AR if balance is what we're after. ___________________________ The assault rifle is meant to be deadly at medium range, but have enough dispersion to be useless at anything farther than that. The scrambler should do the same thing, but at a slightly longer range, with a disadvantage of getting too close to your opponent. Right now the Assault Rifle is the king of close, medium, and long ranges, while still being as accurate as a scrambler rifle, and as deadly as an HMG. The assault scrambler is very good at close and medium ranges, but struggles at long range and only has the killing power of your standard videogame assault rifle.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 573	Posted - 2013.09.13 12:48:00 - [17] - Quote Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2861	Posted - 2013.09.13 13:09:00 - [18] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1489	Posted - 2013.09.13 13:46:00 - [19] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2869	Posted - 2013.09.13 13:56:00 - [20] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle Suppose I stand corrected but I'm sure that philosophy has evolved since then.

Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 310	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:02:00 - [21] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: This might be a problem we're approaching in the wrong fashion. Direct nerfs/buffs to any weapon might just make the problem worse. Every weapon needs a militia variant. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, as who the hell is going to dump 50k sp just to try out a new weapon when they're first starting? they're going to use weapons they can try for free, and due to inertia they'll likely stick with that weapon for quite some time. It might also be a good idea to raise the AR's fitting costs. It might not seem like much but it would make Ar users have to use lower level mods making them weaker as a whole instead of the juggernauts they are. It seems odd to me that the weapon with the highest DPS also has some of the lowest fitting costs. better all around performance should mean higher all around fitting costs. The fitting cost for a Duvolle is already absurdly high making it tough to fit on any proto suit other than the Assault variants. This is already in place. The problem is still a damage type issue. We have no built in resistance to any type of weapons and the ones that do more to a certain type of tank (shield or armor) cannot be tanked for other than with more buffer. Please check out this thread which provides an excellent way to protect yourself on the battlefield. Resistance Thread
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 907	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:07:00 - [22] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle Suppose I stand corrected but I'm sure that philosophy has evolved since then. It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I don't think anything needs to happen to the AR much. Just give it instant dispersion when it starts shooting, instead of having it fire perfect lines for the first 15 rounds, and it'll be fine. That will limit it's accuracy at long range, which is what everyone is pissed off about. You don't need to reduce the ARs damage, RoF, or optimal or effective ranges. Just keep the dispersion the same, but have it start the moment you start firing. Just like the ASCR.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 311	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:14:00 - [23] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle Suppose I stand corrected but I'm sure that philosophy has evolved since then. It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I don't think anything needs to happen to the AR much. Just give it instant dispersion when it starts shooting, instead of having it fire perfect lines for the first 15 rounds, and it'll be fine. That will limit it's accuracy at long range, which is what everyone is pissed off about. You don't need to reduce the ARs damage, RoF, or optimal or effective ranges. Just keep the dispersion the same, but have it start the moment you start firing. Just like the ASCR. Dispersion is an effect caused by a weapon kicking, and overheating, not just by firing a bullet but multiple bullets. The current system of dispersion is as accurate to life as can be implemented. The problem isn't with the weapons it is with how tanking your suit currently works (or doesn't). Vis a vie check out this Resistance Tanking Thread.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1489	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:20:00 - [24] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: This might be a problem we're approaching in the wrong fashion. Direct nerfs/buffs to any weapon might just make the problem worse. Every weapon needs a militia variant. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, as who the hell is going to dump 50k sp just to try out a new weapon when they're first starting? they're going to use weapons they can try for free, and due to inertia they'll likely stick with that weapon for quite some time. It might also be a good idea to raise the AR's fitting costs. It might not seem like much but it would make Ar users have to use lower level mods making them weaker as a whole instead of the juggernauts they are. It seems odd to me that the weapon with the highest DPS also has some of the lowest fitting costs. better all around performance should mean higher all around fitting costs. The fitting cost for a Duvolle is already absurdly high making it tough to fit on any proto suit other than the Assault variants. This is already in place. The problem is still a damage type issue. We have no built in resistance to any type of weapons and the ones that do more to a certain type of tank (shield or armor) cannot be tanked for other than with more buffer. Please check out this thread which provides an excellent way to protect yourself on the battlefield. Resistance Thread Compare the Duvolle to any other weapon at proto. It has lower costs than anything but the LR. This means the gun with the highest DPS in the game has the best fitting costs. As far as it being hard to fit a duvolle, have you ever tried fitting a CRW-9 scrambler onto anything? it takes 16 pg. this is at adv level, so that means the advanced SCR takes 3 more pg than the duvolle. It also takes more CPU than the GEK as well. The AR has absurdly low fitting costs for their performance which let them have a better tank or more damage mods.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2872	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:20:00 - [25] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle Suppose I stand corrected but I'm sure that philosophy has evolved since then. It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I don't think anything needs to happen to the AR much. Just give it instant dispersion when it starts shooting, instead of having it fire perfect lines for the first 15 rounds, and it'll be fine. That will limit it's accuracy at long range, which is what everyone is pissed off about. You don't need to reduce the ARs damage, RoF, or optimal or effective ranges. Just keep the dispersion the same, but have it start the moment you start firing. Just like the ASCR. Agree. The first few rounds down range there isn't any recoil/dispersion, that much I can admit to - but once it kicks it it's pretty crucial when you don't have AR Operation. I mean, technically you could put in a Sharpshooter skill for Scramblers if it's really that big of a deal. My usual outbursts are often directly associated with someone posting up false math and exaggerated claims (like the "Official" Nerf AR thread looming around) but you seem to have your **** down so I'll buy you a drink some time. That is, after I get done shooting at you because your name looks way too familiar and that's often a sign you're one of those finicky ones I have a challenge against xD
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1489	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:24:00 - [26] - Quote Jathniel wrote: It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I'm guessing they're using the breach rifle to balance a higher damage per shot but lower rate of fire weapon for CQC, and the rail rifle will function in a similar manner but with much better range.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 909	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:32:00 - [27] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: This might be a problem we're approaching in the wrong fashion. Direct nerfs/buffs to any weapon might just make the problem worse. Every weapon needs a militia variant. This is a bigger problem than most people realize, as who the hell is going to dump 50k sp just to try out a new weapon when they're first starting? they're going to use weapons they can try for free, and due to inertia they'll likely stick with that weapon for quite some time. It might also be a good idea to raise the AR's fitting costs. It might not seem like much but it would make Ar users have to use lower level mods making them weaker as a whole instead of the juggernauts they are. It seems odd to me that the weapon with the highest DPS also has some of the lowest fitting costs. better all around performance should mean higher all around fitting costs. The fitting cost for a Duvolle is already absurdly high making it tough to fit on any proto suit other than the Assault variants. This is already in place. The problem is still a damage type issue. We have no built in resistance to any type of weapons and the ones that do more to a certain type of tank (shield or armor) cannot be tanked for other than with more buffer. Please check out this thread which provides an excellent way to protect yourself on the battlefield. Resistance Thread I don't think many know how to take advantage of the damage profiles in the game. I don't remotely see assault rifles as a problem generally. Generally, I am fighting Caldari assaults with ARs. So I play the natural counter to them which is a Gallente suit with a scrambler rifle. Not only are they doing less than optimal damage to me, but with proficiency and damage mods on my scrambler, I am doing nearly DOUBLE damage to them. I can take a STD scrambler and drop a proto Caldari with a Duvolle in an instant because of this. Literally 3-5 hits. I've gotten mail asking me "how did you vaporize 600 ehp instantly like that?" The answer is simple. The fit is a Caldari Killer. I like your thread, but what's to stop everyone from simply tanking out an Amarr suit, and say.... making shields resistant to hybrid and laser weapons, and making their armor resistant to projectile and explosives? If people hate the concept of dual tanking, that would only perpetuate the problem. As theoretically, that system can nearly eliminate almost all weaknesses. I do like the efficiency indicator concept from EVE as well though. At the same time we have similar systems already in game right now. Right now, you ARE able to tell what suit someone has on when you aim at them, and you CAN see how effective the weapon you're using is. What I would like is for damage mod percentage to be visibly added to the damage profile indicator when you aim at someone. So you can see, EXACTLY what your final damage tally is going to be when you shoot. It's good to bear in mind, that we will be getting additional weapons in 1.5. These will come with their own profiles as well. What I think would be good is a general hardener function for both shields and armor. Shields harden but don't recharge. Armor hardens, but slows you down.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 311	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:38:00 - [28] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Harpyja wrote: Your thread fails to justify why the Tac AR has a longer optimal than the ScR. It is supposed to emulate the ScR, not outperform it. So yes, you can nerf ARs without needing to nerf the ScRs. You're only nerfing the Tac AR out of all of them though. I always hate going up against Tac AR users because they can hurt me more than I can hurt them, simply because they have a longer optimal than I do. Correction - the Tactical Assault Rifle was meant to emulate the Rail Rifle. Breach = Rail Rifle Not at all, to the best of our knowledge ccp has stated that the TAC AR is the fill in for the Rail Rifle.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 910	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:39:00 - [29] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Jathniel wrote: It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I'm guessing they're using the breach rifle to balance a higher damage per shot but lower rate of fire weapon for CQC, and the rail rifle will function in a similar manner but with much better range. Much better range. We've already seen this before... http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/07/weapon-ranges-in-uprising-1.2-and-beyond/ It bugs me that you got a Pistol AND an SMG listed under "long range". We'll see what happens assuming they come 1.5. I anticipate the AR is going to be least of people's problems.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2875	Posted - 2013.09.13 14:43:00 - [30] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Jathniel wrote: It would have to considering the Rail RIfle is going to be considered a long range weapon. Not sure how Breach got associated with it. I'm guessing they're using the breach rifle to balance a higher damage per shot but lower rate of fire weapon for CQC, and the rail rifle will function in a similar manner but with much better range. Much better range. We've already seen this before... http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/07/weapon-ranges-in-uprising-1.2-and-beyond/ It bugs me that you got a Pistol AND an SMG listed under "long range". We'll see what happens assuming they come 1.5. I anticipate the AR is going to be least of people's problems. That's Caldari though. Long range, shite for damage. Amarr come with second longest range and some pretty nice damage. Minmatar usually favor small optimals with ridiculous fall off with some hefty fire rates to make up for damage application. Gallente stick to close engagements with the highest damage out of all of them.



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