wait a minute... so fitting dampeners to get around without being scanned works?

unless its a proto scanner... to which the direct counter is a proto suit?


/end_sarcasm

btw.. your squad can see your targets was the impression i got.

There's a Focused Active Scanner with a precision of 15. The only suit that can fit enough profile dampeners is the Prototype Gallente Gk.0 because it has enough low slots to do that, the Minmatar one doesn't.

...That's not completely correct. The proto gal scout is the only scout that can avoid it, but apparently so can the gal logi.

Thanks, Aeon. Seriously, thanks for everything.

In the short run, the Devs could hotfix us in any number of ways to keep us in the game. Doing so wouldn't be sufficient to curb our performance decline, but it'd help to staunch the bleeding while we wait for 1.6.

Hotfix Ideas:

• Drastically reduce the cost of Light/Scout Suits.
• Dial down Aim-Assist or make us more resistant to it.
• Reduce damage at range of ARs and ScRs.
• Add to Scout base statistics (Stamina, Speed, CPU, PG, HP).
• Add to Scout base Scan Radius.
• Improve Scout base Scan Profile/Precision.

These are short-term "numeric" buffs which again would help more than than fix the floundering Scout. I've put up and opinion-piece on how the Devs might go about fixing Scouts in the long run (i.e. come 1.6):

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107513

^ I've always respected your approach to problem-solving, so I'd very much appreciate your input here should you have time.

Thanks Again,
Shotty GoBang

Lawl, so the Logi is again better at something that another role should be good at.

Edit: Also, please put m^2 as it is referring to an area not a distance. (I'm know I'm nitpicking)

Haha nice eye.

So the mini scout with pd maxed is 30 db, advanced scanner is 28 db, pd to level five means a complex mod knocks off 7.5 each which Still lands me at 15 db, proto scanner is 15 db.

Why dafuk, did I even waste points in profile dampening, I had mine at 4 before the scanner even came out an now this means my 2 low slot scout always needs a pd in a low slot to beat the advanced scanner but I ll never beat the proto scanner?!!!

Utter HORSE$ HIT!

Wholey waste of points!

However prototype scanners NEED to counter scouts, otherwise scouts would be OP for theres no effective way in countering you.

Well scouts are the weakest Suits and therefore should be the cheapest but a proto scout should be more expensive than a std. Or even adv. Medium suit. Just because prototype technologie should stay expensive.

Well I think every suit fulfills a role, and the role of scouts is Stealth. To accomplish this stealthing you need to move fast, just think about guerilla strategies, pop up, throw nades or give some headshots. BEFORE the enemy player even realizes you are there, a skilled scout should already be long time gone before the enemy moves his vision in that direction. Thats why you need speed and stealth.

With this strategie done proper you coupd possibly be a beast on the field. I agree that scouts need some love. But scouts also need to realize what they are made for.
Everytime I faced such a ninja on the field he gave me a hard time with that. And with turned of squad vision this should even be easier for scouts to archiev, and this is absolutely a buff to scouts in my eyes. And I like that. This gives a more strategic feel to the game.

However prototype scanners NEED to counter scouts, otherwise scouts would be OP for theres no effective way in countering you. Thats the reason why the scanners work as intended. And like someone mentioned before nearly noone rocks the scanner for there is no WP reward, and even less people run with proto scanners. But I think 1 proto scanner seems to be a must habe per squad by now.

So all in all with the right use I think scouts can still be beast, and for what I here speed tanking is no valid option for ANYBODY anymore.

Oh, and not many people use scanners

I don't agree that scouts should avoid proto scanners without a profile dampener. However, one complex profile dampener should definitely hide you from at least the proto quantum scanner.
Scouts should be able to avoid basic scanners with just the suit and maybe lvl 1 in dampening. The dampening modules should be for assault suits that want to try stealth. As soon as anyone starts sacrificing their limited slots and resources on dampeners they should get major benefits. You should not have to equip more than one. A scout with a basic profile dampener should be invisible to an advanced scanner, and so on.

Ok here is my experience.

I run the prototype basic Minmatar light suit, I dont have skills for scout suit up yet and I still cant decide if I want the super stealthy option with 4 lows or the Minmatar shielded scout version, but with less stealth.

I only have dampening at level 3, but I run with one advanced profile dampener and as of yet I have not been scanned.

I run with the proto active scanner, the duvolle 15Db one. Every time I am scanned (so far) it tells me I have prevented enemy scanning. Also with my 15Db I have yet to encounter someone that I couldn't scan.

That being said I imagine that will change now that everyone and there mum will want prototype scanners and stuff.

However scout survivability with the new aimbot feature, well its a hard life being a scout. People with militia rifles only have to look at me funny and I'm gone.

Gone are the days of jumping over peoples heads and strafing around fat heavies with the shotty.

If there was no way for us to beat the proto scanners, our entire advantage is gone the moment someone equips one. With scanners and visibility, you're either spotted or not. Whereas with, say, EHP changes to a suit, it gets slightly easier or harder to kill. Us scouts have no other advantages than lowered radar visibility. The speed isn't really an advantage as long as assaults are pretty damned near as fast as us, plus the fact that the improved aiming makes sure we're dead before we can even hit the sprint button. If we're spotted, we're dead.

The counter to us being unscannable (if we sacrifice a crapload of slots and/or sink millions of SP into the relevant skills) is to turn around. Stop looking just the way you're running or shooting, and we're just as easily spotted as anyone else.

[/list]

1) Aeon is full of misrepresented fact.

Basic Scanner is 40, Advanced Scanner is 36, and Proto Scanner is 28. There is 1 scanner that goes to 15, but it is twice the cost of the others, has lowest range, and the shortest duration. And the fitting is costly. Nearly all the pub match guys, even in teh matchmaking from the 20M+ SP groups, will be running ADV for cost and fitting effectiveness.

2) Nearly irrelevant but a Gallente Scout can beat 15 with 3 complex and 1 basic dampener.

3) My "Good" suit has 1 kincat, 1 CardReg, 1 plate, and 1 Repair in the low slots. Last build, where everyone could see me magically that was what i did best in for slaying. It is still great.
However, my "Scan" suit that I had from day 1 of Uprising, which is 3 range amps and 1 profile dampener, is doing fantastic (and actually useful). I'm killing more and dying less. average is about 18-21 kills and 0-3 deaths per match.

We know Scouts are getting "Something" to balance them in 1.5 or (more likely 1.6) so for know, just run it like you used to. The Minmatar Scout just needs to sacrifice 1 lowslot to be invisible to proto scanners just like the Gallente Scouts.
Complaing that a Scout suit shouldn't have already specialized into Scanning skills, and specifically Profile Dampening, is just ridiculous. Those skills are far more effective than Armor Upgrades and Shield Upgrades for the Scouts.

Well scouts are the weakest Suits and therefore should be the cheapest but a proto scout should be more expensive than a std. Or even adv. Medium suit. Just because prototype technologie should stay expensive.

Well I think every suit fulfills a role, and the role of scouts is Stealth. To accomplish this stealthing you need to move fast, just think about guerilla strategies, pop up, throw nades or give some headshots. BEFORE the enemy player even realizes you are there, a skilled scout should already be long time gone before the enemy moves his vision in that direction. Thats why you need speed and stealth.

With this strategie done proper you coupd possibly be a beast on the field. I agree that scouts need some love. But scouts also need to realize what they are made for.
Everytime I faced such a ninja on the field he gave me a hard time with that. And with turned of squad vision this should even be easier for scouts to archiev, and this is absolutely a buff to scouts in my eyes. And I like that. This gives a more strategic feel to the game.

However prototype scanners NEED to counter scouts, otherwise scouts would be OP for theres no effective way in countering you. Thats the reason why the scanners work as intended. And like someone mentioned before nearly noone rocks the scanner for there is no WP reward, and even less people run with proto scanners. But I think 1 proto scanner seems to be a must habe per squad by now.

So all in all with the right use I think scouts can still be beast, and for what I here speed tanking is no valid option for ANYBODY anymore.

So the Scout gets less than 15db. Cue the whines from people with Proto Scanners, "Why can't my best scanner scan scouts WTF CCP!"

Same difference

Last time I checked scouts and logis where next in the barrel. 1.4 changes are precursor for the scout buff I believe.

Scout buff or legitimate role that no-one else can do better than them?

You say that like giving them a legitimate role wouldn't be a buff.

Than you read it wrong.

Simply buffing Scouts isn't going to make them more or less worthwhile than other builds - it's already been established that pretty much anything with four/five low slots can better stealth tank than a Scout, despite their inherent reduction to profile from their dropsuit skill.

Other suits are better for combat as well, and a lack of equipment slots means has been another notable problem.

Suffice to say there isn't a single thing that they can do that another dropsuit specialization can't do better - Minmatar Logistics are better for hacking, pretty much any suit has better survivability, all of them have better slot layouts to some degree or another and this list goes on.

In fact, the -ONLY- thing that they can do that no-one else can is reliant on the Minmatar and it's bonus to knives, as even with all skills level 5 a Minmatar Scout suit can only melee as hard as a heavy - so it's only unique aspect is with the Nova Knives. But, like everything else, the risks fair outweigh the reward there.

Re-arranging some stats and making them "better per say" isn't going to give them what they really need and that's a reason to be played - a legitimate role that no-one else has, much like Logistics have lots of equipment slots, Heavy's have access to heavy weaponry and Commandos have access to two light weapons. They need something to set them apart, drastically, that only they can do. A buff cannot give them this.

for those that are lazy, scouts need a clear and unique role that only they can perform, not any other suit. i can't even tell what their role is in this game and i been a scout since I started playing this game.

Ideally, the Scout is meant to be a very fast flanker and... scout. They get into enemy territory quickly, scope out the situation, maybe drop some uplinks, and get out. They would theoretically have the power to eliminate unwary opponents who may see them while they are sneaking about. Scouting is all about getting into the enemy's business without them knowing and then getting out just as fast. That is what the Scout SHOULD be capable of. A very skilled player can do this. It is certainly not easy and requires a great deal of smarts and preparedness as well as the ability to make quick decisions. I think the Scout needs tweaking to make this role easier, for sure. Cloaking modules being a unique feature for them might be one possibility. Just a thought.

However prototype scanners NEED to counter scouts, otherwise scouts would be OP for theres no effective way in countering you.

Dude.

The Aurum active scanners are broken. They don't have the right stats.
Oh, and not many people use scanners
And no one ever would use the focused. The quantum is SOOO much better because it makes players last on the radar for 25 seconds.

I mainly use advanced scanners anyways, so at level 5 you're hidden from me, and the majority of players. The people who actually have scanners are limited, and those with prototype are even fewer.

Stop complaining and shoot me in the back already.

I didn't explain enough, so since gallente can stack pd cause of the lows the mini could stack precision mods an act like a predator?

Aeon is precision mods to scan a low db so I don't need a scanner? How low can I scan? So if gallente is for dampeners, I could use a mini as a hunter?

Using the ADV scanners, I've yet to have a 'some margin of error' message, and I know there have been scouts I've scanned down.

Well scouts are the weakest Suits and therefore should be the cheapest but a proto scout should be more expensive than a std. Or even adv. Medium suit. Just because prototype technologie should stay expensive.

Well I think every suit fulfills a role, and the role of scouts is Stealth. To accomplish this stealthing you need to move fast, just think about guerilla strategies, pop up, throw nades or give some headshots. BEFORE the enemy player even realizes you are there, a skilled scout should already be long time gone before the enemy moves his vision in that direction. Thats why you need speed and stealth.

With this strategie done proper you coupd possibly be a beast on the field. I agree that scouts need some love. But scouts also need to realize what they are made for.
Everytime I faced such a ninja on the field he gave me a hard time with that. And with turned of squad vision this should even be easier for scouts to archiev, and this is absolutely a buff to scouts in my eyes. And I like that. This gives a more strategic feel to the game.

However prototype scanners NEED to counter scouts, otherwise scouts would be OP for theres no effective way in countering you. Thats the reason why the scanners work as intended. And like someone mentioned before nearly noone rocks the scanner for there is no WP reward, and even less people run with proto scanners. But I think 1 proto scanner seems to be a must habe per squad by now.

So all in all with the right use I think scouts can still be beast, and for what I here speed tanking is no valid option for ANYBODY anymore.

Some of you guys acting like something isn't wrong.

I'm sorry.

Scouts need a cloaking device.
Scouts need a way to bump up their damage significantly, besides knives and shotguns. They need to have a dramatic offensive advantage to off-set their dramatic defensive disadvantage.

They used to be able to use sniper rifles....... look at how that went.

I wouldn't give them more defense, but more speed and offense for sure.

Maybe even "takedowns".

Some of you guys acting like something isn't wrong.

I'm sorry.

Scouts need a cloaking device.
Scouts need a way to bump up their damage significantly, besides knives and shotguns. They need to have a dramatic offensive advantage to off-set their dramatic defensive disadvantage.

They used to be able to use sniper rifles....... look at how that went.

I wouldn't give them more defense, but more speed and offense for sure.

Maybe even "takedowns".

+1 poster, +1 Shotty

I just want to add something that keeps nagging me when reading all the replies about scanning and scouts and "Stealth Tanking".

Every kill I get is earned by staying OUT OF THE LINE OF SIGHT of my victim. Every death I take is because I was IN THE LINE OF SIGHT of my victim and was unable to disengage.

The bottom line is ... scanners don't kill me, before or after 1.4, before or after Tac-net nerf. Some one checking their peripherals kills me before and after 1.4.

Pre 1.4 if I was spotted during an approach I could veer off, sprint away fast enough to get around a corner before the hail of bullets killed me. Post 1.4 this is impossible, if I am seen, I am killed.

I don't care how they nerf or buff scanners, because its not what gets a scout killed ... agility === survivability for a scout in Dust. Most likely who ever is scanning is not going to pick out the scout out of all the other red dots on the map, or even if they did be able to convey effective info to his squad/team to track me ... let alone catch up with me if I saw them coming.

I do see the 'coolness' that can be achieved by adding the scanning function to the game, but I really hope CCP does not consider scanner tweaks as 'buffing scouts' ... because it doesn't matter ...

+1 poster, +1 Shotty

I just want to add something that keeps nagging me when reading all the replies about scanning and scouts and "Stealth Tanking".

Every kill I get is earned by staying OUT OF THE LINE OF SIGHT of my victim. Every death I take is because I was IN THE LINE OF SIGHT of my victim and was unable to disengage.

The bottom line is ... scanners don't kill me, before or after 1.4, before or after Tac-net nerf. Some one checking their peripherals kills me before and after 1.4.

Pre 1.4 if I was spotted during an approach I could veer off, sprint away fast enough to get around a corner before the hail of bullets killed me. Post 1.4 this is impossible, if I am seen, I am killed.

I don't care how they nerf or buff scanners, because its not what gets a scout killed ... agility === survivability for a scout in Dust. Most likely who ever is scanning is not going to pick out the scout out of all the other red dots on the map, or even if they did be able to convey effective info to his squad/team to track me ... let alone catch up with me if I saw them coming.

I do see the 'coolness' that can be achieved by adding the scanning function to the game, but I really hope CCP does not consider scanner tweaks as 'buffing scouts' ... because it doesn't matter ...

+1 poster, +1 Shotty

I just want to add something that keeps nagging me when reading all the replies about scanning and scouts and "Stealth Tanking".

Every kill I get is earned by staying OUT OF THE LINE OF SIGHT of my victim. Every death I take is because I was IN THE LINE OF SIGHT of my victim and was unable to disengage.

The bottom line is ... scanners don't kill me, before or after 1.4, before or after Tac-net nerf. Some one checking their peripherals kills me before and after 1.4.

Pre 1.4 if I was spotted during an approach I could veer off, sprint away fast enough to get around a corner before the hail of bullets killed me. Post 1.4 this is impossible, if I am seen, I am killed.

I don't care how they nerf or buff scanners, because its not what gets a scout killed ... agility === survivability for a scout in Dust. Most likely who ever is scanning is not going to pick out the scout out of all the other red dots on the map, or even if they did be able to convey effective info to his squad/team to track me ... let alone catch up with me if I saw them coming.

I do see the 'coolness' that can be achieved by adding the scanning function to the game, but I really hope CCP does not consider scanner tweaks as 'buffing scouts' ... because it doesn't matter ...

you all underestimate the dedicated scout.

they aren't stupid but clever. A truely steathly scout could break the 15db threshold if they wanted to but its taking them some time to adequately prep for the task. I think i can hear the menus of fits being tweaked and tecniques being developed as i write this.

trust me this only makes the kill sweeter for those proud few scouts. Besides scouts have been dieing for over a year now and they still manage to be an annoyance on the battlefield.

Last time I checked scouts and logis where next in the barrel. 1.4 changes are precursor for the scout buff I believe.

wait a minute... so fitting dampeners to get around without being scanned works?

unless its a proto scanner... to which the direct counter is a proto suit?


/end_sarcasm

btw.. your squad can see your targets was the impression i got.

Sounds balanced to me.

In order to beat the focussed scanner yu need a scout gk0, invest roughly 1.8 mil SP (compared to 470K to use the scanner) and two or three profiledampener. Equiping three profiledampers leaves yu quite vulnerable only one low slot left and not very much CPU/PG to fit anything else

This is another one of my gripes about being a Scout. It is incredibly SP intensive to be able to fit well, and in its current form, even when you fit it well, its level of usefulness in competitive PC play is extremely low at best. And to counter its best assets, you need only invest a pittance of SP.

While some Scout specialists out there might be able to do very well, they are an elite few.

The Scout community and a few advocates have very well articulated the plight of the class, and continue to do so. And most of the counter arguments are posted by people who have limited to no knowledge or understanding of what it's truly like.

Just wait until they start giving points for using the Active Scanner, lmfao. I advocated for that but now that I'm seeing the results of it's use I'm wanting to recant that statement.

Suggested a 'Chance to scan' concept the other day when I was in a Scouts United squad. It will depend on the difference between Scan Precision of the active scanner VS the Profile of the ones being scanned. Got a -1 from Marauder.....

Maybe give a side bonus to people with low profile signatures: they get scanned down but the lower profile sig the faster your dot disappears on tac net.

Would be nice to have an equipment that produces false readings on a scanner. EWAR baby.


***edit:

PS. How does the 'Margin of Error' mechanic on Active Scanners work exactly anyway? Do you get false readings? Do the dot on the tacnet appear meters away from where the actual person is? What is the meaning of life?

Basically if I scan in your direction and all of your buddies light up but you don't because your profile defeated the scan it will tell me "some margin of error" so that I know there's -something- in there that didn't get picked up. It's sort of a BS mechanic but, hey, at least you're not on the minimap.

You are wrong I run 2 advance dampners and have yet to run into a scanner that can pick me up and I am a Cal Logi.

We're talking about scouts. And they can't fit 2 advanced dampeners and anything else to be of use. So what's your point?

45 DB
x.35 (.25 proto suit skill + .15 profile dampening skill)
=.29.25 DB

put on one prototype dampener and its brought down to 18

enough to evade everything but duvolle active scanner which was probably specifically created to catch any scout that didn't run at least 2 advanced profile dampeners with max skills

this game is all about sacrifices you have to sacrifice to be the best at someting

you want to disappear off radar going to have to sacrifice some armor or stamina and speed mods maybe for some profile dampeners and maybe cpu mods

Dude.

The Aurum active scanners are broken. They don't have the right stats.
Oh, and not many people use scanners
And no one ever would use the focused. The quantum is SOOO much better because it makes players last on the radar for 25 seconds.

I mainly use advanced scanners anyways, so at level 5 you're hidden from me, and the majority of players. The people who actually have scanners are limited, and those with prototype are even fewer.

Stop complaining and shoot me in the back already.

Can you imagine being Solid Snake or Adam Jensen and then at any given point, all enemies on the map either know where you are or at least know a) someone is there b) the general direction you are in?

I'm wondering,

If/when CCP makes some form of cloaking device... what would prevent logi, assault, or heavy from using it? If other classes can also use it, doesn't that also defeat the scouts' affect?

This might be a crazy idea, but what about giving the scout a specialized slot that ONLY scouts have. One that would carry cloaking devices (and perhaps other specialized devices in the future) Sort of like how the Heavy is the only class to have a "heavy weapon" slot. Maybe take away the grenade slot, and replace it with the "stealth equipment" slot. (for lack of a better term)

Easier solution is just put a flag on the equipment module that says "scout only = true"

Active Camo!
... just build it right in
... no "mod" nonsense
... don't have enough PG/CPU as is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHW2EEgX7FE
^ (00:15) Like this for shotgunners

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrDG4sPul8w
^ (01:40) Like this for snipers

Balance!?
... don't worry about Balance :p
... we can deal with that later
... Scouts are sooo squishy

Sexual Tyrannosaurus!?
... yes, we must borrow this as well
... maybe for a new heavy suit
... commando, sentinel, sexual tyrannosaurus


- Shotty GoBang

o/ Aeon!

It's pretty well known that the CPM are unanimous that no-one should ever be able to Predator kill someone. I disagree'd but... to each their own.

I wholeheartedly agree.
The original Predator was clearly a noob.
He got negative WP for all those dishonorable kills.

On a more serious note, there are dozens of ways to balance cloak.
Hoping CCP makes it a Scout exclusive.
Otherwise, Logis will still be better Scouts than Scouts.

It's pretty well known that the CPM are unanimous that no-one should ever be able to Predator kill someone. I disagree'd but... to each their own.

CPM is the biggest bunch of absolute jokers ever. IWS is the only one I ever even see on the forums and he is a joker. The rest of them? What the fudge do they do? Bunch of kurwas.