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[Request] Tiercide & specifics on how to implement it

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5449	Posted - 2013.08.18 09:26:00 - [1] - Quote Tiercide: the removal of tiers. There should only be 2 dropsuit tiers, MLT for testing things out without needing skills, and STD for when you have the skills to use the dropsuit. There are many threads on the subject, this and this, but I thought I should make one specifically about how it should be handled. gbghg's thread covered why it needs to happen, and this thread is mostly about how to implement it, but basically here is why it needs to happen in case you don't want to read a bunch of paragraphs: Tiers create imbalance in PVP, and there are no options besides PVP for new players to engage in until they can compete. This means players with less SP have an unreasonably massive disadvantage, and no other option besides getting stomped by vets for months to catch up. Some people might say something stupid like "New Eden isn't fair, HTFU", but this hurts player retention, and ultimately hurts the game's longevity; even EVE got rid of the tiers on the ships, and chose to go with just specializations. Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked. Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players, so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun. [What should be tiercided & what should not]: Dropsuits should be tiercided. Weapons, equipment, and modules should remain tiered; this is because low tier weapons, equipment, and modules still have a purpose as low PG/CPU costing alternatives which can be useful in making a fitting. Low tier dropsuits however have no such advantage when creating a fit. [MLT basic frame dropsuits]: Militia tier needs to exist as a way to test things out without SP investment. Make militia gear equivalent to the current ADV basic frame dropsuits. They should retain the same ISK cost. [STD basic frame droptuits]: Standard basic frames should be the equivalent of the current PRO basic frames. [Specializations]: Some of you may be thinking "without tiers, why would I spend SP on dropsuits?", the answer is to unlock specializations. They should be a bit more expensive than the basic frame counterparts, but not by much since they aren't meant to be better, just more specialized at one particular area. [Variety]: Ideally there should be a whole lot more specializations for players to put their SP into, Cat Merc covers this in his thread. I would like to see a grenadier medium frame that can carry more than 1 set of grenades at once (skill bonus could be to grenade throw distance), I would like to see a heavy frame specialization that focuses on higher HP tanking at the cost of something else (skill bonus could be to damage resistance), the light frame pilot dropsuit is coming, but I would also like a light frame specialization with no light weapon slot but 3 sidearms that focuses on dealing damage (bonus could be a 1% sidearm damage bonus per level). Would really be great if each frame size had at least 3 specializations. Basic frame skills: The operation skills for basic frames need to give some kind of bonus to justify having 5 levels since specializations are unlocked at level 3. This bonus should also apply to all dropsuit specialization in that racial frame size. This is basically how I would want tierside to be handled. Only dropsuits should be effected, MLT will basically be ADV, STD should be PRO level, no more ADV and PRO dropsuits. Basic frame skills should give some kind of bonus, and there should be more specializations.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5456	Posted - 2013.08.18 12:42:00 - [2] - Quote Any thoughts, suggestions, or concerns?
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation 410	Posted - 2013.08.18 13:13:00 - [3] - Quote This thread from a few months ago contains links to two other threads agreeing with you. Tiericide is starting to look like a popular idea, I hope it shows up in weekly feedback report soon. I can see why CCP would take issue with it. WIthout tiering their options for lower tier aurum gear are limited. As much better as it may be for balance, if CCP isn't making money we don't have a game at all. o_O
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 881	Posted - 2013.08.18 13:21:00 - [4] - Quote Nope Vehicles would be **** yet again We dont even have adv let alone proto mods or hulls yet your all screaming for tiercide because once again infantry have basically everything so your proto suits would be fine but we as vehicle would prob end up with madrugars and gunlogis as our proto vehicles which already get **** by proto AV Let alone the removal of basic/adv stuff so less to use The only way i would ever support tiercide is when everything is out and released and has been balanced and if that takes 2yrs then so be it but doing it right now would screw over vehicle users and that is a fact
Arc-08 Horizons' Edge Orion Empire 40	Posted - 2013.08.18 13:28:00 - [5] - Quote Dude havent you heard of matchmaking. It will come out soon. It will put mercs within a range of sp together. Kind of like academy but for people of all sp amounts. That way people that have proto get put with other proto and not mlt
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5460	Posted - 2013.08.18 19:38:00 - [6] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Nope Vehicles would be **** yet again We dont even have adv let alone proto mods or hulls yet your all screaming for tiercide because once again infantry have basically everything so your proto suits would be fine but we as vehicle would prob end up with madrugars and gunlogis as our proto vehicles which already get **** by proto AV Let alone the removal of basic/adv stuff so less to use The only way i would ever support tiercide is when everything is out and released and has been balanced and if that takes 2yrs then so be it but doing it right now would screw over vehicle users and that is a fact Don't be ridiculous, vehicles could be be rebalanced for proto-AV, problem solved. I'm proposing tiercide for only infantry dropsuits (read the thread), vehicles are already tiercided, it won't even affect vehicles. Its not like I'm suggesting tierciding weapons and making them all proto (and thus leaving proto AV), if it was, I would have suggested to keep AV at STD level, but like I said in the OP weapons should NOT be tiercided. Your concerns don't make sense. Read the thread.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5460	Posted - 2013.08.18 19:44:00 - [7] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: Dude havent you heard of matchmaking. It will come out soon. It will put mercs within a range of sp together. Kind of like academy but for people of all sp amounts. That way people that have proto get put with other proto and not mlt That in no way explains why ADV and PRO need to exist in the first place. Good matchmaking or not, tiercided dropsuits would still make them more balanced. If you're expecting matchmaking changes to be some sort of miracle that makes every battle pretty fair, then you have your expectations too high. Nullarbor already made it clear that matchmaking will NOT be based on SP, and even if it somehow was, as game population drops, its inevitable that in some situations newer and older players will have to be in the same battles to fully populate them. EVE got it right, specializations instead of tiers is the answer.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5462	Posted - 2013.08.18 20:22:00 - [8] - Quote Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote: This thread from a few months ago contains links to two other threads agreeing with you. Tiericide is starting to look like a popular idea, I hope it shows up in weekly feedback report soon. I can see why CCP would take issue with it. WIthout tiering their options for lower tier aurum gear are limited. As much better as it may be for balance, if CCP isn't making money we don't have a game at all. o_O Good point, though CCP can still sell MLT BPO dropsuits probably at a higher cost since they would be only 1 tier away from the highest dropsuit. They could also sell STD basic frame and specialized dropsuits, and more specializations will mean more suits to sell.
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 108	Posted - 2013.08.18 20:23:00 - [9] - Quote KageHoshi Horned Wolf, I like your idea for tiercide. But the proposal would require a skill bonus for basic suit skills because the only incentive to level basic suit skills is to get access to higher tiered suits and variants; there is no incentive to max out basic suit skills with the introduction of tiercide. I feel that the CPU and PG on suits should be reduced and the basic suit skills should give a CPU/PG bonus to the basic and all its variant suits that brings the CPU and PG back to pre-reduced levels. This will give incentive to max out the basic suit skills. I also feel that an additional equipment slot should be added to basic light and medium frame suits because they are too similar to their assault or scout variant.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5462	Posted - 2013.08.18 20:35:00 - [10] - Quote medomai grey wrote: KageHoshi Horned Wolf, I like your idea for tiercide. But the proposal would require a skill bonus for basic suit skills because the only incentive to level basic suit skills is to get access to higher tiered suits and variants; there is no incentive to max out basic suit skills with the introduction of tiercide. I feel that the CPU and PG on suits should be reduced and the basic suit skills should give a CPU/PG bonus to the basic and all its variant suits that brings the CPU and PG back to pre-reduced levels. This will give incentive to max out the basic suit skills. I also feel that an additional equipment slot should be added to basic light and medium frame suits because they are too similar to their assault or scout variant. I agree with you on needing a bonus for basic frame (I mentioned it in the OP), the PG/CPU thing is a very good idea, more specific than anything I tried to come up with. +1 I also agree about the specializations being too similar to the basic frames. I agree with the medium frames getting a 2n equipment slot. I think lights in general right now are underpowered, I would like basic lights to have at least one more module slots, but for scout specialization to have an equipment slot to be better at scout-type stuff.

Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F 81	Posted - 2013.08.18 20:56:00 - [11] - Quote Tiericide is a truly fantastic thing, and I can only hope it happens sooner rather than later. EVE didn't start the process until rather recently, and its taking them in the order of years to finish the process. The sooner we start this, the less work it will be for the devs. One of the concerns I have seen people have with this idea is the aurum sales. Keep in mind this is only to dropsuits. The only aurum items that would be removed are the dropsuits. Modules, weapons, equipment, etc, all still here. CCP can switch the aurum dropsuits over to the specializations, and that works out perfectly. My only suggestion to this idea is a minor rename to match what EVE has. Call your proposed STD dropsuits, Tech 1 dropsuits, and the specializations Tech 2. We gain nothing, and loose consistency, by naming things differently in DUST.
The-Errorist Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2013.08.19 05:10:00 - [12] - Quote Azri Sarum wrote: Tiericide is a truly fantastic thing, and I can only hope it happens sooner rather than later. EVE didn't start the process until rather recently, and its taking them in the order of years to finish the process. The sooner we start this, the less work it will be for the devs. One of the concerns I have seen people have with this idea is the aurum sales. Keep in mind this is only to dropsuits. The only aurum items that would be removed are the dropsuits. Modules, weapons, equipment, etc, all still here. CCP can switch the aurum dropsuits over to the specializations, and that works out perfectly. My only suggestion to this idea is a minor rename to match what EVE has. Call your proposed STD dropsuits, Tech 1 dropsuits, and the specializations Tech 2. We gain nothing, and loose consistency, by naming things differently in DUST. +1 For consistency.
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 403	Posted - 2013.08.19 14:34:00 - [13] - Quote we've supported this for some time and detail it in our first piece regarding where Dust went wrong http://t.co/dAKSWdBVIM .At the heart of the problem is the shooter fan raging when he empties his clip into an enemy who simply turns around and one shots him in return. They simply wont stand for it or continue to play a game where this happens. In Dust, sadly..this is how the system is designed to work to show the differences between low and high SP players.
Reiki Jubo Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 199	Posted - 2013.08.19 14:37:00 - [14] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Nope Vehicles would be **** yet again We dont even have adv let alone proto mods or hulls yet your all screaming for tiercide because once again infantry have basically everything so your proto suits would be fine but we as vehicle would prob end up with madrugars and gunlogis as our proto vehicles which already get **** by proto AV Let alone the removal of basic/adv stuff so less to use The only way i would ever support tiercide is when everything is out and released and has been balanced and if that takes 2yrs then so be it but doing it right now would screw over vehicle users and that is a fact ur the classic idiot whos opinion should never be asked or given for any aspect of this game, ever. why? because ur only concerned with your style of play and ur ability to excel not the game as a whole.
Cyrille Fodeux DUST University Ivy League 59	Posted - 2013.08.19 14:41:00 - [15] - Quote I agree but the weapons should be a bit changed too. So there should be one or two weapons for lower fitting requierments but the other ones should be pretty similar like the turrets in EVE.
zibathy numbertwo Nox Aeterna Security 10	Posted - 2013.08.19 15:03:00 - [16] - Quote Let me tell you why that's bullshit. 1. This is Dust, not EvE. You cannot apply EvE logic to this game. I have been playing EvE for 4 years. It is not an FPS. They did not "get it right" the way you envision it. It is an MMO, it is not an MMOFPS. The end. 2. Removing tiers removes the concept of "ranking up". If I do not have 5m SP to sink into getting this shiny dropsuit, what the hell am I playing for? For stats that aren't visual? It's part of human nature to want to see something physical. Stats are not physical besides numbers that you see under the dropsuit information. 3. This removes personalization. There is no slot advancement if you have to choose from 3 slots or 4. It's not the same as a 0M/2L configuration going all the way up to 3M/4L. The less options you give players, the more angry they will be. The fact I can't run around in a suit made out of duct tape would **** me off. Nobody wants to be boxed in and forced to buy ADV level suits. 4. Inevitably, all would move up to Proto suits. Basically what you want to create is a hellhole where every player gets to experience the sea of lava from the deepest pits of hell the second they play by being surrounded by people who were boxed into wearing Proto-equivalent gear because what the hell else are they gonna use? MLT? Yeah right. 5. BPO? For ADV level gear? Saving 20k every single life? You clearly have never heard of pay to win games. Saving 3k a suit that you can upgrade 3 tiers is different than saving 20k on a suit that's one step below f*cking Proto. You would have to remove dropsuit BPOs, which is something I don't find particularly lovely. 6. The game is not meant to be fair. Period. A proto is not equivalent to a MLT suit. If you have a problem with that, I honestly don't know what to tell you because clearly you want a game that doesn't reward time invested so you actually have never played a CCP game before in your life. 7. "Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked." Are we even talking about the same game? I use my 'Exile' on my ADV suit. I have used it on my proto suit when the fitting got too tight. I use what fits - I fit proto gear on my standard suits (Complex damage mod and Complex armor reps/whatever they're called). Guess we had better make sure I can't do that either, huh? 8. If you want to apply EvE logic, there are hundreds of different spaceships. Not 8. I want hundreds of dropsuits to choose from. Not 8. Not 16. Not 32. I want 100. I want more than right now, and the Pilot/Commando give me that fix and I look forward to even more. 9. "Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players" Again, are we talking about the same game? Slots used for health are not used for damage mods. The only health difference is between MLT -> STD. I can assure you, no one uses every slot just to put on plates/extenders. 10. "so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun." Aww, yeah, you know, I don't think you've ever heard of the concept of artificial skill. Pop a squat next to pappy and let me tell you a story. CCP games use artificial skill; you gain, let's say, 2% damage every week because you upgrade damage. You are not better at the game, you simply have been around longer so you get "artificial" skill. This is the whole point of playing. You not only gain true skill, you gain artificial skill. What you want this game to be is one without artificial skill gain. You literally want to make this game Call of Duty. You actually think a game that rewards you for being a veteran isn't "fun". Congratulations. I'm going to be blunt, I hope nothing you suggest ever gets put into the game or I am never playing this game again. It will be a dead failed CCP project to me, and something not worthy of the drunkard but lovable CCP name. I will never acknowledge it exists and I will never suggest the game to another friend. I will disband my corporation and we will all leave. If your idea is implemented, a larger percentage will be turned away from this game due to the brutal Protos smashing the newbies. Time invested will feel less worthwhile. You will drive away old players and new ones alike. You would kill the game effectively like a pesticide and you would do so for the sake of "fun" and "fairness". The end.
zibathy numbertwo Nox Aeterna Security 10	Posted - 2013.08.19 15:07:00 - [17] - Quote Let me quickly sum up what I said above: Your ideal game is BF3 or CoD where everyone has the same health and there is as little progression as possible because that's "fair".
Starfire Revo G I A N T EoN. 91	Posted - 2013.08.19 15:54:00 - [18] - Quote I have to agree with zibathy for the most part on this one, although I do think there are ways to even things out a bit. Having a single role bonus on basic suits would go a long way for something like this. The main issue with tiericide in Dust compared to EVE is that lower cost gear is always viable, where as certain ships in EVE were flat out terrible compared to equal cost alternatives. The real issue that needs fixed is keeping those who want to compete with proto gear away from newer players, which is a matchmaking problem.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1532	Posted - 2013.08.19 16:23:00 - [19] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Read the whole thing before posting something Did that, and just so we're clear I do understand that you are talking about dropsuits not about everything. Now on to the meat of the subject. Quote: Tiercide: the removal of tiers. There should only be 2 dropsuit tiers, MLT for testing things out without needing skills, and STD for when you have the skills to use the dropsuit. There are many threads on the subject, this and this, but I thought I should make one specifically about how it should be handled. gbghg's thread covered why it needs to happen, and this thread is mostly about how to implement it, but basically here is why it needs to happen in case you don't want to read a bunch of paragraphs: Tiers create imbalance in PVP, and there are no options besides PVP for new players to engage in until they can compete. This means players with less SP have an unreasonably massive disadvantage, and no other option besides getting stomped by vets for months to catch up. Some people might say something stupid like "New Eden isn't fair, HTFU", but this hurts player retention, and ultimately hurts the game's longevity; even EVE got rid of the tiers on the ships, and chose to go with just specializations. Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked. Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players, so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun. Tiercide as a general concept is cool to me, unfortunately most iterations of it are far less desirable than the general concept. I have not checked out the two linked threads yet, that's my next stop, but at this point I am not persuaded that this change is required or beneficial. For example some of the listed motives are, simply put, directly in conflict with my own testing. I have a zero SP character who runs starter fits, I test on this character regularly (usually at least one day a week) and have not encountered "an unreasonably massive disadvantage". Lets be clear here, I am a support logi, in part because my gun game is not the strongest out there, so I'm playing on a character with zero sp, in starter fits, in a role I'm mediocre at and tending to earn 500-1500 WP per game even in matches with organized corp squads running full proto. Now I am not saying that gear and SP have no impact, but it is certainly not an impact that I feel can accurately be described as "massive". Furthermore the most painful burden placed on my zero SP character when contrasted with several of my other characters? It's not HP, or even eHP, it is *mobility. That's right the speed with which I can sprint, run, drive, etc. has a drastically larger and more meaningful impact on game play than relative HP does. I understand why the free starter LAV was removed but it was also one of the harshest and most cutting nerfs to new players ability to compete that has happened since live launch. Stripping new players of that mobility creates a slower and more frustrating form of game play and even if they are buying basic LAVs to compensate those death buggies still explode if you sneeze on them wrong thus costing the new player time and ISK neither of which they can as readily afford. Advanced players who have more SP can sprint longer, recover faster, and sprint faster than the standard players, they can also field better vehicles, possess better uplinks, and have enhanced hacking rates. There superior speed gives them superior adaptability and that has a much more significant effect on new players than does the relative HP of dropsuits. Re: Your #2, I've had proto since the start of the live game due to open beta play and I do not run it most of the time, more than 80% of my pub matches (which are the majority of my game play) use fits that are a mix of Militia and Standard suits and mods. Even if money were no object and I could run proto all match every match I still wouldn't because using lower meta gear is better training to make my player skills more effective for those important moments where I do run proto. Simply put I'm an object lesson in how this point doesn't hold true, just because some players might "go proto or go home" doesn't mean everyone does it, I certainly don't. Re: #3, see the first part of my post, the problem isn't HP, or eHP it is speed. Flattening TTK (time to kill) game wide would reduce diversity and would not* address the core shortfall confronting low SP characters/new players. Now I'm going to go give those links a look. Cheers, Cross
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7491	Posted - 2013.08.19 17:06:00 - [20] - Quote Sigh, old post https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75214 Things I would take away from it is the following. Give all Drop Suits and Vehicles localized Bonuses to their roles that depend on the operational skill level to increase. Give all Operational skills fitting bonuses to all the drop suits or vehicles they are for. Give all Suits and Vehicles bonuses more befitting of their roles. Make militia suits and vehicles jack of all trades for that weight class. They get powerful starting bonuses, different slot layout and good fitting but gain no bonus per level whatsoever verses every other class. Shift Neo into two categories Neo = Early Bonus Suits, They will have bonuses of more advanced levels however they themselves do not gain any bonuses when its require skill is trained. Specialist = Early Fit these suits have better fitting at earlier skill levels up to lvl 5 skill levels, these suits however do not benefit from fitting bonus gains from training up operational skills.

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1536	Posted - 2013.08.19 18:20:00 - [21] - Quote I'm not sure how much time I've already spent reading your posts and ideas Iron Wolf Saber but thanks to that link (how did I not see this thread until now?) it's about to be a lot more. ~ Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1536	Posted - 2013.08.19 18:58:00 - [22] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Sigh, old post https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75214 A very quick and succinct response to the linked thread. Step 1 I was honestly somewhat hesitant about this, but when considered as part of the other steps listed I can confidently stand behind it. Step 2 Love it, the effects are good on both mechanical and abstract levels, honestly this is something I've been craving in Dust. I'll have to chew on the specific values to form an impression there, but the 'Overall Theme' aspect is great. Step 3 Phase 1 Yes, this would be a great addition to the quality of gameplay in Dust. Phase 2 Light looks good Medium, General frames look good. Logi frame, removal of the Light weapon is to me 180 degrees the wrong direction to take unless we're talking about making Dust Logi fill the same role as EVE Logi where they can actually out rep several streams of incoming damage at once. The major drawback of the sidearm regardless of type is shorter range and the most effective method for a Logi to be supporting a squad in most situation is to run something with extended range so that the Logi can put fire down to suppress or soften hostile targets while the squad moves in/sets up. Tac Rifles, Laser Rifles and Mass Drivers are all quite common for Logi running squad support and there is nothing comparable within the sidearm offerings even thought we have pseudo parallels such as the Flaylock and Scrambler Pistol. Assault frame, looks solid, may require some other slight buff to 'gank' as a method of maintaining its role status in the face of Logi keeping their light weapon slot (which really needs to happen). Large, General Agreed. Sentinel, sounds good and I think most of the Heavies I squad with would be quite pleased. Commando, looks good, maintains its flavor without becoming out of line. Permutations based on the 'Alternatives' section could provide enhanced diversity while still increasing specialization, and generally speaking more useful diversity is better than less so with that in the mix my objections above are at least mitigated, and possibly resolved depending on the specific method and time frame of the changes (i.e. the current Logi support role needs to remain viable with use of weapons such as the MD, LR, TAR etc for close squad work not be mechanically excised from the game until some unnamed future time). Step 4 Looks solid, no objections, may even help aid new players in acclimating to the game. I also like the concept of link slots. All in all I'd give the thread a +1 if it weren't time locked due to age. 0.02 ISK Cross
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1513	Posted - 2013.08.19 19:19:00 - [23] - Quote Now don't get me wrong KAGEHOSHI, I agree with tiercide. But to what degree can you just take it? What I am saying is the relation between prototype gear and prototype dropsuits. We all know that to efficiently use prototype gear, you're going to want a prototype suit. It has the most CPU/PG out of the bunch so in order to fit those proto weapons, best go with the proto suit. It cuts back on needs for sacrifice. Now if you are a person like me, some one who has all 5's in CPU/PG and Armor/Shield Bonuses to dropsuits, then we may as well be stuck in the same place. The CPU/PG bonus applies much more handsomely to Prototype suits because they have the highest CPU/PG, thus the skills add more CPU/PG. This basically means that a person, like me, would become no different than your current Proto-Bear. I would still be able to fit Proto Anything where I want and have a considerate shrinking in sacrifice. Now, that's not bad at all, that's how the skills work after all. But the true problem is that we will have people, still with large HP gaps (not so much with tiercide but still gaps) and with gaps in damage and what not. This is where My proposal comes in Now, I think that tiercide should hit weapons, to a degree. We should unify damage amongst tiers (we have damage modules if you want more damage after all) and if weapons/equipment are not to be unified and dealt like dropsuits (specializations & Variants) then give tiers of gear other performance enhancers. Take MLT gear for example. It is practically no different from Basic gear except it has higher CPU/PG and some other performance fault, such as smaller clip size. I think that is how tiered weapons should work; the differing tiers offer less CPU/PG requirements and/or better clip sizes or accuracy or some other factor. Unlike damage, these differences do not directly affect the opponents to said gear. The damage and RoF are the same as their guns, it's just that the other weapon called for less sacrifice or has more accuracy, an attribute that would help push skill into the game.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7516	Posted - 2013.08.19 20:46:00 - [24] - Quote @Cross Overall the idea is old and quite dated now and in retrospect some aspects of the idea where bad such as the specifics in weapons and slot layouts. As for the things following the link if i could update it if it weren't locked that what it would boil down too. I may make a version 2.0 to include vehicles.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1538	Posted - 2013.08.19 20:57:00 - [25] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: @Cross Overall the idea is old and quite dated now and in retrospect some aspects of the idea where bad such as the specifics in weapons and slot layouts. As for the things following the link if i could update it if it weren't locked that what it would boil down too. I may make a version 2.0 to include vehicles. I'm looking forward to version 2.0 if that gets rolled out. Sweeping changes are a tough nut to crack when it comes to balance but focusing on providing flexible roles and specializations is a great step in the right direction over trying to either prefab boxes into which people must put themselves for their role or flattening the overall game diversity to promote "fairness" I like the matrix of aspects you've put together in the prior post, old or not, and am much more optimistic about the concept of tiericide within Dust sooner rather than later based on the concepts you've raised. Cheers, Cross
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 7521	Posted - 2013.08.19 21:07:00 - [26] - Quote Well the original intention of the design was to retain growth of the soldier still and it would be done via understanding of the gear you're fitting onto the suit it would also emphasize better suit fitting skills eventually where players will have to decide to go hybrid, focused, themed, synergetic instead of chaotically all over the place.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion 1207	Posted - 2013.08.19 22:14:00 - [27] - Quote zibathy numbertwo wrote: -Post snipped because it was too long. Click here to access.- 1. And yet scientific research successfully applied to animals are then used to form drugs for humans. 2. Ranking up still occurs. You simply become more versatile IN ONE ROLE on the battlefield, than going from adv -> pro which suddenly makes you better at EVERYTHING. And suits will look different. Many more small variants to paint jobs and styles than we have now, which will appease your aesthetic side. 3. OP states that STD gear after tiercide will be equivalent to PRO basic frames now. So you will have plenty of slots to personalise. Even if you have 4 slots, you don't necessarily have to use them. Instead, more CPU/PG can go into your choice of grenade, or equipment. That feels like personalisation increases MORE to me. 4. No, people won't eventually move up to PRO. They will already be there from the beginning. How will it be a 'sea of lava or 'deepest pit of hell'? It will be as if everyone is using the same type of gear, on the surface. Underneath, you don't know how your neighbour has fitted his suit because there's so much potential for VERSATILITY and PERSONALISATION. 5. Monetization is definitely an issue that must be addressed. No one said tiercide was perfect, but I don't see you offering an alternative. 6. You say EVE logic can't apply to DUST, and go and say "this game isn't meant to be fair" when the motto in EVE/New Eden is "HTFU" followed by "get betta scrub". Even with tiercide, it won't be fair. How will you know the exact fit of every single person on the battlefield? Each person has an advantage if they play to their role. If you try outrun a scout with a suit that has upgraded sprint speed with your scout suit that has upgraded shield regen, for example, it won't be fair. But you can survive longer than the scout in combat. We're creating strengths and weaknesses instead of tier progression where all strengths get stronger and there are less weaknesses. 7. And in PC matches? All we see are FOTM fits or full prototype. Competitively, everything under ADV and even including ADV gear is obsolete. 8. Tiercide ALLOWS for hundreds of variants. The current system will explode if we try implement all those as it would be incredibly difficult to balance every variant over std-adv-pro tiers. 9. "the only health difference is between mlt-std". Oh, so not mlt-adv? Not mlt-pro? Not std-pro? 10. We aren't giving up artificial skill, we're capitalising on it. Passive bonuses become the progression that tiers are now. You may say you will never play again. You may say droves of players will leave if this game turns into CoD. But you have no evidence. We have no evidence tiercide will work. We admit it's not a perfect system. But it's hella a lot better than the current system. Now, if you wish to argue the current system is perfect, go do it in General Discussion and watch the rest of the community laugh at you. Or, propose an alternative yourself which you think is better than tiercide. I wish you the best of luck. If your idea is good I will support it.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion 1207	Posted - 2013.08.19 22:24:00 - [28] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Tiercide as a general concept is cool to me, unfortunately most iterations of it are far less desirable than the general concept. I have not checked out the two linked threads yet, that's my next stop, but at this point I am not persuaded that this change is required or beneficial. For example some of the listed motives are, simply put, directly in conflict with my own testing. I have a zero SP character who runs starter fits, I test on this character regularly (usually at least one day a week) and have not encountered "an unreasonably massive disadvantage". Lets be clear here, I am a support logi, in part because my gun game is not the strongest out there, so I'm playing on a character with zero sp, in starter fits, in a role I'm mediocre at and tending to earn 500-1500 WP per game even in matches with organized corp squads running full proto. Now I am not saying that gear and SP have no impact, but it is certainly not an impact that I feel can accurately be described as "massive". Furthermore the most painful burden placed on my zero SP character when contrasted with several of my other characters? It's not HP, or even eHP, it is *mobility. That's right the speed with which I can sprint, run, drive, etc. has a drastically larger and more meaningful impact on game play than relative HP does. I understand why the free starter LAV was removed but it was also one of the harshest and most cutting nerfs to new players ability to compete that has happened since live launch. Stripping new players of that mobility creates a slower and more frustrating form of game play and even if they are buying basic LAVs to compensate those death buggies still explode if you sneeze on them wrong thus costing the new player time and ISK neither of which they can as readily afford. Advanced players who have more SP can sprint longer, recover faster, and sprint faster than the standard players, they can also field better vehicles, possess better uplinks, and have enhanced hacking rates. There superior speed gives them superior adaptability and that has a much more significant effect on new players than does the relative HP of dropsuits. Re: Your #2, I've had proto since the start of the live game due to open beta play and I do not run it most of the time, more than 80% of my pub matches (which are the majority of my game play) use fits that are a mix of Militia and Standard suits and mods. Even if money were no object and I could run proto all match every match I still wouldn't because using lower meta gear is better training to make my player skills more effective for those important moments where I do run proto. Simply put I'm an object lesson in how this point doesn't hold true, just because some players might "go proto or go home" doesn't mean everyone does it, I certainly don't. Re: #3, see the first part of my post, the problem isn't HP, or eHP it is speed. Flattening TTK (time to kill) game wide would reduce diversity and would not* address the core shortfall confronting low SP characters/new players. Now I'm going to go give those links a look. Cheers, Cross I do very well on my militia character too. Thing is, can the rest of the population say the same? Can all the new players, who are struggling to understand the skill system, boast of the extensive knowledge about game mechanics/maps that we have? My gun game is ****. I can barely keep my KDR above 1 on this guy. My KDR is below 1 on my militia character. But still I can get successful games on it. But our anecdotal evidence is not strong enough to simply prove tiercide is heading the wrong direction. Your hypothesis is interesting. In relation to this hypothesis of "mobility > eHP", I believe tiercide delivers a system which doesn't necessarily flatten TTK. The HP gap closes, but that means there will be more focus on roles. A scout suit variant which delivers extra shield regen will be used for what I like to call 'butterfly combat', flitting around and being a nuisance to hit without going down. A scout with a movement speed bonus can catch people with charged nova knives. 2 examples of hundreds that are possible with variants, and both do not point towards a flattening of kill time. In fact, both examples highlight the importance of mobility. Unless the implementation of variants is botched, diversity will be increased.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5486	Posted - 2013.08.20 12:38:00 - [29] - Quote More thoughts on this are welcomed.
zibathy numbertwo Nox Aeterna Security 16	Posted - 2013.08.21 09:05:00 - [30] - Quote You make a claim like that, now how about you support that with evidence? What suits are carbon copies?

excillon united we stand x 29	Posted - 2013.08.21 09:27:00 - [31] - Quote I for one would like to see us simply be able to upgrade our existing suits, adding slots, etc. I've been using my Raven so long, I can't imagine not using it. I think it would be great for the marketplace if you could sell those suits. For instance, you buy a BPO Dragonfly assault. You level it up, add things to it, and sell it. The catch should be that the buyer must be a certain level to use it. Maybe not as high a level as you are to create it, but have the buyers level affect what he can do with it. Same with weapons. Even add a customization app, for colors, renaming, etc. As for tiercide, I'm kind of in between. I see both sides, and I wish there was some happy medium there. But there's not, at least not that I can see.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion 1215	Posted - 2013.08.21 09:55:00 - [32] - Quote excillon wrote: I for one would like to see us simply be able to upgrade our existing suits, adding slots, etc. I've been using my Raven so long, I can't imagine not using it. I think it would be great for the marketplace if you could sell those suits. For instance, you buy a BPO Dragonfly assault. You level it up, add things to it, and sell it. The catch should be that the buyer must be a certain level to use it. Maybe not as high a level as you are to create it, but have the buyers level affect what he can do with it. Same with weapons. Even add a customization app, for colors, renaming, etc. As for tiercide, I'm kind of in between. I see both sides, and I wish there was some happy medium there. But there's not, at least not that I can see. Currently the community are focused around the debate between having a respec system and not. I believe tiercide is the happy medium between those two extremes. I really like that idea of having the ability to sell your own pre-made fits, though. Have a little skill book icon next to a fit that gets a green tick if you have all the prerequisites. This would be even more effective WITH tiercide, since more variants mean many more unique applications of fits. Fit creators could even add descriptions, and recommended additional skills / other possible modifications.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5541	Posted - 2013.08.25 14:37:00 - [33] - Quote More debate is welcomed
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1648	Posted - 2013.08.27 07:49:00 - [34] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: I do very well on my militia character too. Thing is, can the rest of the population say the same? Can all the new players, who are struggling to understand the skill system, boast of the extensive knowledge about game mechanics/maps that we have? My KDR (which is honestly a bad stat, but I'll leave that rant alone) on my militia character is better than on my main actually. Partly because of the bug which failed to record skirmish stats for so long, and partly because my main is a Logi and I run support which means dining a fair bit without getting kills. Quote: My gun game is **. I can barely keep my KDR above 1 on this guy. My KDR is below 1 on my militia character. But still I can get successful games on it. But our anecdotal evidence is not strong enough to simply prove tiercide is heading the wrong direction. There pretty nearly isn't any other kind when it comes to this, which is why such changes raise flags for me. So much of what is being talked about is conjecture, theory, or subjective. None of which should be a foundation for balance/rebalance. Any new change to the mechanics of the game should bear the burden of proof, it should need to show why it is a clearly superior change and if it fails then (at least that aversion) should not move forward. Quote: Your hypothesis is interesting. In relation to this hypothesis of "mobility > eHP", I believe tiercide delivers a system which doesn't necessarily flatten TTK. The HP gap closes, but that means there will be more focus on roles. A scout suit variant which delivers extra shield regen will be used for what I like to call 'butterfly combat', flitting around and being a nuisance to hit without going down. A scout with a movement speed bonus can catch people with charged nova knives. 2 examples of hundreds that are possible with variants, and both do not point towards a flattening of kill time. In fact, both examples highlight the importance of mobility. Unless the implementation of variants is botched, diversity will be increased. HP, or even eHP isn't the proper place to focus for an active look at tiericide. Tiericide is about role quality not about stat normalization. While I fully agree that that NPE is vital the future of the game, and have posted more than once seeking improvements to that end, removing the edge that progression grants isn't going to improve the game. Even in a game where there are no character skills and no gear upgrades the vets still have a massive advantage because they know the maps, know the engine, know the UI, etc. and that's all without touching on the concept of gun game directly. Now all of that being said, Iron Wolf Saber presents a very viable first push towards a tiericide effort, and I give my reactions to it within post #22 of this thread. I am in no way opposed to tiericde, in fact I support it, but the method must be carefully considered and things which lean towards or border on stat flattening are generally not a good way to go, at least not as a vanguard effort/proposed solution in their own right. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: It's late here and I don't know what 'tone' my above post has put across, so in case it didn't come through I wanted to say this directly; Thank you** for the constructive and clear post, I appreciate the quality of your response and the tone of its presentation.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5661	Posted - 2013.09.01 05:54:00 - [35] - Quote Should happen
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5682	Posted - 2013.09.02 02:04:00 - [36] - Quote Dropsuit tiers are bad, mkay?
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5943	Posted - 2013.09.16 18:42:00 - [37] - Quote Want
Godin Thekiller Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 712	Posted - 2013.09.16 20:26:00 - [38] - Quote So, like I have been saying, copy and paste the dropsuits like the vehicles? Okay.
KING CHECKMATE TEAM SATISFACTION 1118	Posted - 2013.09.16 21:31:00 - [39] - Quote I was a bout to rant then i read: ''What should be tiercided & what should not]: Dropsuits and ONLY dropsuits should be tiercided. Weapons, equipment, and modules should remain tiered; this is because low tier weapons, equipment, and modules still have a purpose as low PG/CPU costing alternatives which can be useful in making a fitting. Low tier dropsuits however have no such advantage when creating a fit. '' You got me there. i can agree with this. +1
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1309	Posted - 2013.09.16 22:42:00 - [40] - Quote Although the tiercide to only dropsuits seems to be the preferred option, there is a flaw that I see there. That is, why would anyone use basic modules if their dropsuit has the capacity to fit complex? So essentially as people skill into complex modules (which require much less SP than what prototype dropsuits do currently), basic and advanced modules will be left on the shelves to collect dust. They're being tiercided without even removing them from the game and simply become redundant. Why not implement tiercide for modules also? Have only complex shield extenders, but a variant can be the shield energizers we have now. Then we can also have a variant which gives less shield HP but a resistance to a certain damage type; we can make a variant for each damage type. That's already half a dozen other variants or so to the current shield extender. Now, make the skill Shield Extension unlock the complex shield extenders at level 1, shield energizers at level 3, and all those damage resistance variants at level 5. That's what I envision tiercide to be: as you unlock you get MORE SPECIALISED variants instead of a higher tier which is simply better overall.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5958	Posted - 2013.09.16 22:58:00 - [41] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Although the tiercide to only dropsuits seems to be the preferred option, there is a flaw that I see there. That is, why would anyone use basic modules if their dropsuit has the capacity to fit complex? So essentially as people skill into complex modules (which require much less SP than what prototype dropsuits do currently), basic and advanced modules will be left on the shelves to collect dust. They're being tiercided without even removing them from the game and simply become redundant. Why not implement tiercide for modules also? Have only complex shield extenders, but a variant can be the shield energizers we have now. Then we can also have a variant which gives less shield HP but a resistance to a certain damage type; we can make a variant for each damage type. That's already half a dozen other variants or so to the current shield extender. Now, make the skill Shield Extension unlock the complex shield extenders at level 1, shield energizers at level 3, and all those damage resistance variants at level 5. That's what I envision tiercide to be: as you unlock you get MORE SPECIALISED variants instead of a higher tier which is simply better overall. You can't fit all proto/complex modules, weapons, and equipment. Something usually has be just STD/basic or ADV/enhanced, for me at least. That being said, I'm not apposed to your idea.
Godin Thekiller Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 714	Posted - 2013.09.16 23:02:00 - [42] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Although the tiercide to only dropsuits seems to be the preferred option, there is a flaw that I see there. That is, why would anyone use basic modules if their dropsuit has the capacity to fit complex? So essentially as people skill into complex modules (which require much less SP than what prototype dropsuits do currently), basic and advanced modules will be left on the shelves to collect dust. They're being tiercided without even removing them from the game and simply become redundant. Why not implement tiercide for modules also? Have only complex shield extenders, but a variant can be the shield energizers we have now. Then we can also have a variant which gives less shield HP but a resistance to a certain damage type; we can make a variant for each damage type. That's already half a dozen other variants or so to the current shield extender. Now, make the skill Shield Extension unlock the complex shield extenders at level 1, shield energizers at level 3, and all those damage resistance variants at level 5. That's what I envision tiercide to be: as you unlock you get MORE SPECIALISED variants instead of a higher tier which is simply better overall. It wouldn't be able to at the start; you would have to skill up to be able to do that. Like the engineering and Electronics skill would be buffed. It would also cost less.
gargantuise aaron Sanguine Knights 153	Posted - 2013.09.16 23:18:00 - [43] - Quote I'm not teiricidal but I'm not opposed to overhaul My solution would take time and effort just more extensive specialization Instead of std adv spec then proto spec Make it 2-5 layer of increasing specialized
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.09.16 23:25:00 - [44] - Quote I agree tho ccp has to fix the problem they are having with putting the bonuses on the suits but once they do yes this needs to be the direction they head. how I want to see it done is like 3-5 basic suits with bonuses to different roles/weapons, and then the specialized suits(ie pilot, scout, assault, logi, sentinal, commando) would be better bonuses and slight better base stat versions of the basics with the incentive to level being the bonuses they get.
Xaviah Reaper Savage Arms INC 14	Posted - 2013.09.16 23:27:00 - [45] - Quote removing the idea of prototype and advanced is an excellent idea. Look at games such as World of Warcraft for example. They extend their end-game content with frequent patches, out-dating the old tier and introducing cool looking new tiers. This way people don't get bored of running the same gear all the time. +1 support Reaper
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.09.16 23:41:00 - [46] - Quote zibathy numbertwo wrote: Let me quickly sum up what I said above: Your ideal game is BF3 or CoD where everyone has the same health and there is as little progression as possible because that's "fair". far from it this is emphasizing roles over work to the point where combat is basically a low health shooter a la cod of battle field. not to mention you aren't removing progressing as the suits would have to be leveled for full effectiveness and if this is done right you will also have to level to gain access to suits with different role bonuses. and this is a shooter first and foremost, no it is not nor should it be cod or BF, but it is a shooter and the focus should not be leveling to make suits useless but leveling to make them more capable. This is actually the beauty of new Eden over say WOW instead of climbing a continuous progression ladder that makes every thing you strived for useless it instead makes what you worked for more powerful and more versatile.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.09.16 23:55:00 - [47] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Read the whole thing before posting something Did that, and just so we're clear I do understand that you are talking about dropsuits not about everything. Now on to the meat of the subject. Quote: Tiercide: the removal of tiers. There should only be 2 dropsuit tiers, MLT for testing things out without needing skills, and STD for when you have the skills to use the dropsuit. There are many threads on the subject, this and this, but I thought I should make one specifically about how it should be handled. gbghg's thread covered why it needs to happen, and this thread is mostly about how to implement it, but basically here is why it needs to happen in case you don't want to read a bunch of paragraphs: Tiers create imbalance in PVP, and there are no options besides PVP for new players to engage in until they can compete. This means players with less SP have an unreasonably massive disadvantage, and no other option besides getting stomped by vets for months to catch up. Some people might say something stupid like "New Eden isn't fair, HTFU", but this hurts player retention, and ultimately hurts the game's longevity; even EVE got rid of the tiers on the ships, and chose to go with just specializations. Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked. Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players, so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun. Tiercide as a general concept is cool to me, unfortunately most iterations of it are far less desirable than the general concept. I have not checked out the two linked threads yet, that's my next stop, but at this point I am not persuaded that this change is required or beneficial. For example some of the listed motives are, simply put, directly in conflict with my own testing. I have a zero SP character who runs starter fits, I test on this character regularly (usually at least one day a week) and have not encountered "an unreasonably massive disadvantage". Lets be clear here, I am a support logi, in part because my gun game is not the strongest out there, so I'm playing on a character with zero sp, in starter fits, in a role I'm mediocre at and tending to earn 500-1500 WP per game even in matches with organized corp squads running full proto. Now I am not saying that gear and SP have no impact, but it is certainly not an impact that I feel can accurately be described as "massive". Furthermore the most painful burden placed on my zero SP character when contrasted with several of my other characters? It's not HP, or even eHP, it is *mobility. That's right the speed with which I can sprint, run, drive, etc. has a drastically larger and more meaningful impact on game play than relative HP does. I understand why the free starter LAV was removed but it was also one of the harshest and most cutting nerfs to new players ability to compete that has happened since live launch. Stripping new players of that mobility creates a slower and more frustrating form of game play and even if they are buying basic LAVs to compensate those death buggies still explode if you sneeze on them wrong thus costing the new player time and ISK neither of which they can as readily afford. Advanced players who have more SP can sprint longer, recover faster, and sprint faster than the standard players, they can also field better vehicles, possess better uplinks, and have enhanced hacking rates. There superior speed gives them superior adaptability and that has a much more significant effect on new players than does the relative HP of dropsuits. Re: Your #2, I've had proto since the start of the live game due to open beta play and I do not run it most of the time, more than 80% of my pub matches (which are the majority of my game play) use fits that are a mix of Militia and Standard suits and mods. Even if money were no object and I could run proto all match every match I still wouldn't because using lower meta gear is better training to make my player skills more effective for those important moments where I do run proto. Simply put I'm an object lesson in how this point doesn't hold true, just because some players might "go proto or go home" doesn't mean everyone does it, I certainly don't. Re: #3, see the first part of my post, the problem isn't HP, or eHP it is speed. Flattening TTK (time to kill) game wide would reduce diversity and would not* address the core shortfall confronting low SP characters/new players. Now I'm going to go give those links a look. Cheers, Cross you bring up a valid point that proto is not that big an advantage but if you flatten ttk and add a variety of suit with different bonuses you actually create a more diverse battlefield as bonuses play a bigger role then stacking tanks and damage mods to try and compete with proto or to outright stomp in proto.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 8550	Posted - 2013.09.17 00:07:00 - [48] - Quote One more advantage of tetricide is that it WILL allow modules to shine as differentiators. A gallente assault with armor should be substantially tougher than one without.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.09.17 00:12:00 - [49] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Sigh, old post https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75214 hhhmmmm I like although I would give the light frames a bonus to weapon damage at a loss in mag capacity, instead of the range bonus, thats more fitting for a hit and run suit and would allow the suits to be extremely fragile as they should be. think burst damage/rouge/'assassin style play, good for strategic single target take down at any range. Also great at being the fox in the hen house.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.09.17 01:51:00 - [50] - Quote Just wow ... iron wolf that is one of the best thought out posts I've seen to date....... yea that implimented as is would be freaking perfect. Though I'd like to add two things 1) after all the work you sugested is done added and ballanced, add more basic suits with different roles. 2)make a heavy only module (or make it a base heavy abilty) that allows them to sprint as fast or faster then a scout over very long distances but only in a straight line and when they stop sprinting they have a cool down in their sprint that would eqivilent to the time it would take fOr their stamina to fully regen normally. This would allow the heavy to bring its guns to bear in a big fight but would leave it vunerable in the same way it is now, guys out running and out rangeing them and their inability to retreat.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 6121	Posted - 2013.09.22 23:00:00 - [51] - Quote More thoughts welcomed.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 279	Posted - 2013.09.23 16:03:00 - [52] - Quote This combined with this would go a long way to improving the game. However, tiercide would probably kill Aur purchases (even with your suggested modification). To counter this, CCP needs to introduce more kinds of aur items, like more types of boosters. I would also like for them to create a new blueprint type that gives a cosmetic change but still requires me to purchase the normal suits so not all std suits have to look exactly the same.
The-Errorist Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 226	Posted - 2013.09.23 16:29:00 - [53] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: This combined with this would go a long way to improving the game. However, tiercide would probably kill Aur purchases (even with your suggested modification). To counter this, CCP needs to introduce more kinds of aur items, like more types of boosters. I would also like for them to create a new blueprint type that gives a cosmetic change but still requires me to purchase the normal suits so not all std suits have to look exactly the same. Side Note: ^ this could also come in handy for FW. After gaining enough loyalty with a specific side, you are unlock or can purchase a recolor of other suits to match your faction. E.g. Make an Amarr suit rusty or give a Minnie suit a golden shine. You probably didn't read the entire OP. This was already addressed.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 279	Posted - 2013.09.23 16:35:00 - [54] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Krom Ganesh wrote: This combined with this would go a long way to improving the game. However, tiercide would probably kill Aur purchases (even with your suggested modification). To counter this, CCP needs to introduce more kinds of aur items, like more types of boosters. I would also like for them to create a new blueprint type that gives a cosmetic change but still requires me to purchase the normal suits so not all std suits have to look exactly the same. Side Note: ^ this could also come in handy for FW. After gaining enough loyalty with a specific side, you are unlock or can purchase a recolor of other suits to match your faction. E.g. Make an Amarr suit rusty or give a Minnie suit a golden shine. You probably didn't read the entire OP. This was already addressed. I did. I still don't think offering a specialized suit with the bonuses already maxed would be enough to entice people to buy them. The biggest reason I see to use Aurum suits is to get their cp/pgu. If the only difference between getting lvl 1 in the suit and using the Aur version are the bonuses, I just don't see them being purchased as often.
Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 359	Posted - 2013.09.23 18:40:00 - [55] - Quote I had posted a Proposal on how to do this and even made up some suit's (with bonuses) to help illustrate the concept. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=109111&find=unread
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 6141	Posted - 2013.09.23 18:53:00 - [56] - Quote Severus Smith wrote: I had posted a Proposal on how to do this and even made up some suit's (with bonuses) to help illustrate the concept. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=109111&find=unread I like this idea, but I really think its important to have the PRO level slot layouts and PG/CPU to maximize customizability. Also, I like how Amarr dual tank in Dust, so I would not change that. I do love the idea of even further specialization.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 6156	Posted - 2013.09.25 01:07:00 - [57] - Quote Lowered requirement AUR tech 3 would be a good way to make money also.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 288	Posted - 2013.09.25 01:09:00 - [58] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Lowered requirement AUR tech 3 would be a good way to make money also. If standard class suits are tech I and specialized class suits are tech II, what are tech III?
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 6157	Posted - 2013.09.25 01:11:00 - [59] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Lowered requirement AUR tech 3 would be a good way to make money also. If standard class suits are tech I and specialized class suits are tech II, what are tech III? Severus Smith's idea linked above my previous recent posts. Basically a super specialized suit, like a logi with even more equipment, but only a sidearm slot.
low genius the sound of freedom Renegade Alliance 481	Posted - 2013.09.25 03:00:00 - [60] - Quote I don't care for this idea.

medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 172	Posted - 2013.09.25 07:05:00 - [61] - Quote I'm baffled as to why this idea isn't more popular with the Dust community. Too busy trying to buff their gear and nerf everyone else's gear?
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 6174	Posted - 2013.09.25 09:05:00 - [62] - Quote medomai grey wrote: I'm baffled as to why this idea isn't more popular with the Dust community. Too busy trying to buff their gear and nerf everyone else's gear? People aren't comfortable with big game changes generally unless its a fix, they're used to the status quo. Many the same people who don't like the idea of tiercide would be against adding tiers if Dust was tiercided from the beginning.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1341	Posted - 2013.09.25 09:06:00 - [63] - Quote I posted this somewhere else, but I'd like to point out here too that the Active Scanner Operation skill and what it unlocks highlights exactly what I imagine tiercide to make all items become. Here is what I'll be referring to below: http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Active_Scanner Now, as you can see, at level I, we unlock scanners that aren't so different from the scanners we unlock later at level III and level V. The only thing that is getting progressively better is the scan precision, something which is in itself a specialisation, because very rarely will there be people running around with profiles under 15dB. That is, in 95% of games, a basic Active Scanner can do exactly what the Duvolle Focused Active Scanner does, with 3 seconds less of a scan duration. Are those 3 seconds worth all those skill points? For someone who wishes to specialise in EWAR, yes. To all others, NO. That is the essence of tiercide; you'll only keep upgrading a skill if you want specialisation, not better equipment in general.
Spycrab Potato Hold-Your-Fire 495	Posted - 2013.09.25 14:09:00 - [64] - Quote All hail tiercide!
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6283	Posted - 2013.09.28 19:30:00 - [65] - Quote More thoughts welcomed
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 410	Posted - 2013.10.07 11:51:00 - [66] - Quote it should be a surprise to no one how well subtle differences to gear works in gta online. it promotes competition when veteran players cant survive a hail of bullets that would kill a new player. it also lets skill be the determining factor in victory and only a crazy person wouldnt support that.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 365	Posted - 2013.10.07 13:41:00 - [67] - Quote The situation, tiericide and Dust. In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god. In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6458	Posted - 2013.10.07 14:09:00 - [68] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: The situation, tiericide and Dust. In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god. In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away. Skill bonuses, and new specializations (with bonuses). Most shooters manage to give players an addicting sense of progression without the things being unlocked being obviously superior. EVE does better since tiers have been removed from what I understand.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 365	Posted - 2013.10.07 15:00:00 - [69] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: The situation, tiericide and Dust. In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god. In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away. Skill bonuses, and new specializations (with bonuses). Most shooters manage to give players an addicting sense of progression without the things being unlocked being obviously superior. EVE does better since tiers have been removed from what I understand. I am a generous person but can verify that you have your facts backwards. Tiers have not been removed and are likely to be increased rather than downgraded. I have no reference for tier additions in Eve but believe it was during one of their fanfest video presentations that they asked for ideas about which ship class should get a new Tier 3 ship. If you are interested in trying Eve to find out more about new eden please take the opportunity to take advantage of a 21 day free trial of Eve: 21 Day Free Trial (standard is 14 days). Tier 3 Minmatar Battle Cruiser In addition to T1, T2, T3 ships there are both T1 and T2 modules to fit to ships and there are also Faction modules with higher meta levels than the Tier 2 modules. Often the faction modules have lower skill requirements than the T2 modules.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6459	Posted - 2013.10.07 15:27:00 - [70] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: The situation, tiericide and Dust. In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god. In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away. Skill bonuses, and new specializations (with bonuses). Most shooters manage to give players an addicting sense of progression without the things being unlocked being obviously superior. EVE does better since tiers have been removed from what I understand. I am a generous person but can verify that you have your facts backwards. Tiers have not been removed and are likely to be increased rather than downgraded. I have no reference for tier additions in Eve but believe it was during one of their fanfest video presentations that they asked for ideas about which ship class should get a new Tier 3 ship. If you are interested in trying Eve to find out more about new eden please take the opportunity to take advantage of a 21 day free trial of Eve: 21 Day Free Trial (standard is 14 days). Tier 3 Minmatar Battle Cruiser In addition to T1, T2, T3 ships there are both T1 and T2 modules to fit to ships and there are also Faction modules with higher meta levels than the Tier 2 modules. Often the faction modules have lower skill requirements than the T2 modules. Eve ships uses Tech, not tiers. Techs are basically levels of specializations. Tech 1 is like basic medium frame, Tech 2 is like logi, tech 3 is like a super-customizable suit where even the PG/CPU can be changed, at least that was what I was lead to believe. I think the use of the word tier is a mistake on the wiki, or the page is a relic from the past before EVE had tiercide (origin of the term). Actually it could just be that tiercide is not complete in EVE, I searched "EVE Online tiercide" asking about when it will be complete https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=239100 , this could explain the page you linked with the tiers. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/74234 Here is an EVE devblog on tiercide.

Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 365	Posted - 2013.10.07 15:51:00 - [71] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: The situation, tiericide and Dust. In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god. In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away. Skill bonuses, and new specializations (with bonuses). Most shooters manage to give players an addicting sense of progression without the things being unlocked being obviously superior. EVE does better since tiers have been removed from what I understand. I am a generous person but can verify that you have your facts backwards. Tiers have not been removed and are likely to be increased rather than downgraded. I have no reference for tier additions in Eve but believe it was during one of their fanfest video presentations that they asked for ideas about which ship class should get a new Tier 3 ship. If you are interested in trying Eve to find out more about new eden please take the opportunity to take advantage of a 21 day free trial of Eve: 21 Day Free Trial (standard is 14 days). Tier 3 Minmatar Battle Cruiser In addition to T1, T2, T3 ships there are both T1 and T2 modules to fit to ships and there are also Faction modules with higher meta levels than the Tier 2 modules. Often the faction modules have lower skill requirements than the T2 modules. Eve ships uses Tech, not tiers. Techs are basically levels of specializations. Tech 1 is like basic medium frame, Tech 2 is like logi, tech 3 is like a super-customizable suit where even the PG/CPU can be changed, at least that was what I was lead to believe. I think the use of the word tier is a mistake on the wiki, or the page is a relic from the past before EVE had tiercide (origin of the term). Actually it could just be that tiercide is not complete in EVE, I searched "EVE Online tiercide" asking about when it will be complete https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=239100 , this could explain the page you linked with the tiers. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/74234 Here is an EVE devblog on tiercide. "The Tornado is a Tier 3 Battlecruiser that sacrifices durability for the ability to fit large (Battleship-grade) weapons." --quoted from my previous eve wiki quote, and still listed in their descriptions. They effectively just changed skill requirements which happens all the time and is not to be confused with removing tiers. As it currently stands only Gallente industrials have seen this happen I am sure more will be announced but this is not the same as what dust has, read a few descriptions, proto is not tier 2.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6460	Posted - 2013.10.07 16:14:00 - [72] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: The situation, tiericide and Dust. In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god. In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away. Skill bonuses, and new specializations (with bonuses). Most shooters manage to give players an addicting sense of progression without the things being unlocked being obviously superior. EVE does better since tiers have been removed from what I understand. I am a generous person but can verify that you have your facts backwards. Tiers have not been removed and are likely to be increased rather than downgraded. I have no reference for tier additions in Eve but believe it was during one of their fanfest video presentations that they asked for ideas about which ship class should get a new Tier 3 ship. If you are interested in trying Eve to find out more about new eden please take the opportunity to take advantage of a 21 day free trial of Eve: 21 Day Free Trial (standard is 14 days). Tier 3 Minmatar Battle Cruiser In addition to T1, T2, T3 ships there are both T1 and T2 modules to fit to ships and there are also Faction modules with higher meta levels than the Tier 2 modules. Often the faction modules have lower skill requirements than the T2 modules. Eve ships uses Tech, not tiers. Techs are basically levels of specializations. Tech 1 is like basic medium frame, Tech 2 is like logi, tech 3 is like a super-customizable suit where even the PG/CPU can be changed, at least that was what I was lead to believe. I think the use of the word tier is a mistake on the wiki, or the page is a relic from the past before EVE had tiercide (origin of the term). Actually it could just be that tiercide is not complete in EVE, I searched "EVE Online tiercide" asking about when it will be complete https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=239100 , this could explain the page you linked with the tiers. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/74234 Here is an EVE devblog on tiercide. "The Tornado is a Tier 3 Battlecruiser that sacrifices durability for the ability to fit large (Battleship-grade) weapons." --quoted from my previous eve wiki quote, and still listed in their descriptions. They effectively just changed skill requirements which happens all the time and is not to be confused with removing tiers. Yes, I read it. I was saying the page is either a relic from before tiercide, or more likely its something they haven't gotten around to tierciding yet since tiercide seems to be incomplete and ongoing process in EVE. Also, if it sacrifices something to gain some other advantage, then its more like a specialization than a Dust-style tier; tiers are pure upgrades in Dust, they don't sacrifice anything. Much like that ship, for a suit to be better at something, it must always sacrifice something else. "That is why we want to remove ship tiers altogether, then refocus our balancing philosophy to be based on role. That means finding common themes, or lines that fit ships with the same purpose, then adjusting slot layout, HP and fittings within each class to support this goal." http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/9129 Good idea in EVE, and god idea for Dust.
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc. 301	Posted - 2013.10.07 16:29:00 - [73] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Arc-08 wrote: Dude havent you heard of matchmaking. It will come out soon. It will put mercs within a range of sp together. Kind of like academy but for people of all sp amounts. That way people that have proto get put with other proto and not mlt That in no way explains why ADV and PRO need to exist in the first place. Good matchmaking or not, tiercided dropsuits would still make them more balanced. If you're expecting matchmaking changes to be some sort of miracle that makes every battle pretty fair, then you have your expectations too high. Nullarbor already made it clear that matchmaking will NOT be based on SP, and even if it somehow was, as game population drops, its inevitable that in some situations newer and older players will have to be in the same battles to fully populate them. EVE got it right, specializations instead of tiers is the answer. Its basically impossible and would stop players from playing with each other, plus matchmaking is for scrubs.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 365	Posted - 2013.10.07 16:49:00 - [74] - Quote You miss the point, there have to be benefits for investing SP in something or it breaks the current system. The current system says if you have X skill to lv5 you can use the best gear. That gives reason to get X skill to lv5 rather than leaving it on lv1 or 3 where your advanced gear starts. If you remove the option and spec each suit to something different then you need more more more different things to make specialized and currently the suits are specialized with good, better and best as options for fitting. You want to remove good, better and best and make it the same for all lvs. Try this...see if it fits
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6460	Posted - 2013.10.07 17:06:00 - [75] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: You miss the point, there have to be benefits for investing SP in something or it breaks the current system. The current system says if you have X skill to lv5 you can use the best gear. That gives reason to get X skill to lv5 rather than leaving it on lv1 or 3 where your advanced gear starts. If you remove the option and spec each suit to something different then you need more more more different things to make specialized and currently the suits are specialized with good, better and best as options for fitting. You want to remove good, better and best and make it the same for all lvs. Try this...see if it fits I already said on the OP that there should be more specialization roles to unlock to get people to level up skills. Also the skill bonuses for the specialized suits are more than enough incentive (for me at least) to max them our. Ideally even the basic frame skills should have a bonus that will later stack with the specialization bonuses.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 413	Posted - 2013.10.07 19:59:00 - [76] - Quote I think the OP is confused with what tiericide in EVE means. In EVE there were multiple ships in each racial class that were "tiered." You could fly the first Battleship of your race at racial battleship 1, the next at a higher level and the last at level 5 (maybe it was 4). Anyways, these were all very different ships that filled different roles, and having them tiered didn't make sense. Tiericide was making all T1 battleships of the same race have roughly equal stats. You absolutely do have better versions of the same ship in EVE and there are no plans for that to go away. For example, you have the standard Omen cruiser, a "navy" version of it which is significantly better, and the T2 Heavy Assault Cruiser version called the Zealot which will kick the crap out of a T1 Omen, it's also like 100x more expensive. You also have T3 cruisers, and the Amarr leigion can be configured similarly to an Omen. It will also kick the **** out of it. Tiericide in DUST would be more like making sure the assault and logistics versions of a suit were roughly competitive with each other stats-wise, or Sentinals and Commandos having similar overall power (even though they have different roles, one is not meant to be the better version of the other). There is no intention to make T2 or T3 ships on par with T1 ships in EVE. I can wear proto Amarr assault, but I run STD suits with better mods and advanced weapons 7 times out of 10. The risk vs. ISK is the most compelling feature of DUST. It's fun and interesting to make choices like "should I go advanced to get revenge on that proto pubstomper? Is it worth the risk to me of loosing it?" No other FPS games have you make decisions like that, it's part of what makes DUST the most interesting FPS ever made (not saying it doesn't have plenty of problems).
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 366	Posted - 2013.10.07 21:56:00 - [77] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I think the OP is confused with what tiericide in EVE means. In EVE there were multiple ships in each racial class that were "tiered." You could fly the first Battleship of your race at racial battleship 1, the next at a higher level and the last at level 5 (maybe it was 4). Anyways, these were all very different ships that filled different roles, and having them tiered didn't make sense. Tiericide was making all T1 battleships of the same race have roughly equal stats. You absolutely do have better versions of the same ship in EVE and there are no plans for that to go away. For example, you have the standard Omen cruiser, a "navy" version of it which is significantly better, and the T2 Heavy Assault Cruiser version called the Zealot which will kick the crap out of a T1 Omen, it's also like 100x more expensive. You also have T3 cruisers, and the Amarr leigion can be configured similarly to an Omen. It will also kick the **** out of it. Tiericide in DUST would be more like making sure the assault and logistics versions of a suit were roughly competitive with each other stats-wise, or Sentinals and Commandos having similar overall power (even though they have different roles, one is not meant to be the better version of the other). There is no intention to make T2 or T3 ships on par with T1 ships in EVE. I can wear proto Amarr assault, but I run STD suits with better mods and advanced weapons 7 times out of 10. The risk vs. ISK is the most compelling feature of DUST. It's fun and interesting to make choices like "should I go advanced to get revenge on that proto pubstomper? Is it worth the risk to me of loosing it?" No other FPS games have you make decisions like that, it's part of what makes DUST the most interesting FPS ever made (not saying it doesn't have plenty of problems). You sir have fit it all into a nutshell. I agree that it is somewhat more compelling than fighting for KDR in COD or BF. You are spot on with the ships in Eve as well. If I want to go mission with some friends and bring a T1 Logi Osprey along to keep everyone good on their shields it would suffice for doing LV4 missions, on the other hand if I were to go run with a TVP Incursion fleet I would need to have a T2 Logi Basilisk (200mil just for the ship vs 19mil fitted for the Osprey) fit with a faction fit to be invited into the Incursion Fleet because it needs to be more effective. There is a definite reason for the Tiericide in Eve but at this point in time Mr. Wolf seems like he is just asking to remove the stepping stones along the path to Proto rather than having to go through with the process of skilling and killing.
Meeko Fent DUST University Ivy League 1086	Posted - 2013.10.07 21:59:00 - [78] - Quote Weapons should also be cided. But, otherwise, DO IT ******* NOW!!!!!!!!!!
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6624	Posted - 2013.10.19 20:27:00 - [79] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Weapons should also be cided. But, otherwise, DO IT ******* NOW!!!!!!!!!! I still find lower tier weapons and equipment useful for conserving PG/CPU
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1507	Posted - 2013.10.20 01:13:00 - [80] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I think the OP is confused with what tiericide in EVE means. In EVE there were multiple ships in each racial class that were "tiered." You could fly the first Battleship of your race at racial battleship 1, the next at a higher level and the last at level 5 (maybe it was 4). Anyways, these were all very different ships that filled different roles, and having them tiered didn't make sense. Tiericide was making all T1 battleships of the same race have roughly equal stats. You absolutely do have better versions of the same ship in EVE and there are no plans for that to go away. For example, you have the standard Omen cruiser, a "navy" version of it which is significantly better, and the T2 Heavy Assault Cruiser version called the Zealot which will kick the crap out of a T1 Omen, it's also like 100x more expensive. You also have T3 cruisers, and the Amarr leigion can be configured similarly to an Omen. It will also kick the **** out of it. Tiericide in DUST would be more like making sure the assault and logistics versions of a suit were roughly competitive with each other stats-wise, or Sentinals and Commandos having similar overall power (even though they have different roles, one is not meant to be the better version of the other). There is no intention to make T2 or T3 ships on par with T1 ships in EVE. I can wear proto Amarr assault, but I run STD suits with better mods and advanced weapons 7 times out of 10. The risk vs. ISK is the most compelling feature of DUST. It's fun and interesting to make choices like "should I go advanced to get revenge on that proto pubstomper? Is it worth the risk to me of loosing it?" No other FPS games have you make decisions like that, it's part of what makes DUST the most interesting FPS ever made (not saying it doesn't have plenty of problems). Confused as most of us are about EVE, I think that for all intents and purposes, we aren't looking for a solution similar to EVE. We're looking for something to resolve issues in DUST. The only thing that's similar is the name we have taken: tiercide. Risk vs. ISK is not going away. In fact, many are supporting a more partial tiercide, which won't affect all items. I on the other hand support a tiercide where variants are introduced to replace tiers. Look at the active scanners, for example. There are no massive overall bonuses as you unlock the new scanners. Instead, the top tier scanners have specialised purposes that only a few people will pay the extra money to use because it fits into that unique playstyle. Currently, dropsuits and most weapons don't support this. Higher tier unlocks don't have weaknesses; they become better overall and suddenly someone's performance becomes better overall because of this. I want to see, as you upgrade AR Operation, more variants. How about an AR which doesn't make you show up on the minimap? How about an AR which shoots silently but does make you show on the minimap? What about a variant with no clip but half the maximum ammo capacity? Why can't we have those instead of a GEK? And to reiterate, risk vs. ISK stays. Variants of the basic AR will be much more expensive (low demand as they're specialised), but overall will remain on par with the basic AR. Notice how I highlight overall. An AR which doesn't make you appear on the minimap will be extremely effective if used by a scout who can't be scanned, but if that scout is noticed the AR loses it's advantage. Strengths and weaknesses.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6707	Posted - 2013.10.26 21:17:00 - [81] - Quote I hope it happens when all suits get added.
Samuel Zelik D.A.R.K Academy D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 64	Posted - 2013.10.26 21:26:00 - [82] - Quote Unrelated to this post but I had a question for Kage. You had an idea about a new type of big Shield Installation with multiple hacking points or something similar (I was having trouble understanding it the way it was worded). I'm having trouble finding the thread; could you post a link to it? I'd like to reference the idea in a post I want to make. Thanks.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6707	Posted - 2013.10.26 21:31:00 - [83] - Quote Samuel Zelik wrote: Unrelated to this post but I had a question for Kage. You had an idea about a new type of big Shield Installation with multiple hacking points or something similar (I was having trouble understanding it the way it was worded). I'm having trouble finding the thread; could you post a link to it? I'd like to reference the idea in a post I want to make. Thanks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114132 this? or https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=97218 this? These are my only installation ideas I can think of.
Ulysses Knapse Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 507	Posted - 2013.10.27 01:21:00 - [84] - Quote What about Tech II? I want Tech II... I need Tech II.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6852	Posted - 2013.11.01 01:19:00 - [85] - Quote Updated the the OP a bit. Basic frame skills should have a bonus that also applies to the specializations in that frame size. Would give reason to put SP in basic frames. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 522	Posted - 2013.11.01 02:53:00 - [86] - Quote CCP seriously just needs to do this. New players wouldn't have as much of gap between vets but vets still would have enough of an advantage to make them feel like their time spent playing was worthwhile. It would make balancing scouts easier for CCP. As someone else pointed out, scout eHP progression is much lower than than the other suits since we (are supposed to) rely more on biotics and we have less slots. However, weapon damage progression is is more balanced around the medium's increasing health.
Defy Gravity Unreal-MoFos 126	Posted - 2013.11.01 03:09:00 - [87] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Read the whole thing before posting something Tiercide: the removal of tiers. There should only be 2 dropsuit tiers, MLT for testing things out without needing skills, and STD for when you have the skills to use the dropsuit. There are many threads on the subject, this and this, but I thought I should make one specifically about how it should be handled. gbghg's thread covered why it needs to happen, and this thread is mostly about how to implement it, but basically here is why it needs to happen in case you don't want to read a bunch of paragraphs: Tiers create imbalance in PVP, and there are no options besides PVP for new players to engage in until they can compete. This means players with less SP have an unreasonably massive disadvantage, and no other option besides getting stomped by vets for months to catch up. Some people might say something stupid like "New Eden isn't fair, HTFU", but this hurts player retention, and ultimately hurts the game's longevity; even EVE got rid of the tiers on the ships, and chose to go with just specializations. Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked. Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players using the same suit type, so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun. [What should be tiercided & what should not]: Dropsuits and ONLY dropsuits should be tiercided. Weapons, equipment, and modules should remain tiered; this is because low tier weapons, equipment, and modules still have a purpose as low PG/CPU costing alternatives which can be useful in making a fitting. Low tier dropsuits however have no such advantage when creating a fit. [MLT basic frame dropsuits and their skills]: Militia tier needs to exist as a way to test things out without SP investment. Make militia gear equivalent to the current ADV basic frame dropsuits. They should retain the same ISK cost as MLT suits. [STD basic frame droptuits]: Standard basic frames should be the equivalent of the current PRO basic frames. Should cost the same as the current STD suits. The operation skills for basic frames need to give some kind of bonus to justify having 5 levels since specializations are unlocked at level 3. This bonus should also apply to all dropsuit specialization in that racial frame size. [Specializations]: Some of you may be thinking "without tiers, why would I spend SP on dropsuits?", the answer is to unlock specializations, and skill bonuses. Specializations should be a bit more expensive than the basic frame counterparts, but not by much since they aren't meant to be better, just more specialized at one particular area. Tiercided specialized suits (like assault or logistics) should be equivalent to the current PRO specialized suits. [Monetization]: Specialized suits with no skill requirements could still be sold. Having more specializations (at least 3 per frame size) would lead to a lot of dropsuits CCP could have for sell. Certain AUR suits could have skill-bonuses of that specialization built in and maxed out to incentivize spending AUR. Don't want to max out Amarr assault skill, but want to be better with lasers? buy some AUR Amarr assaults. This is basically how I would want tierside to be handled. Only dropsuits should be effected, MLT will basically be ADV, STD should be PRO level, no more ADV and PRO dropsuits. Basic frame skills should give some kind of bonus, and there should be more specializations. No. GÇ£War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.GÇ¥ GÇò George Orwell
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6853	Posted - 2013.11.01 03:16:00 - [88] - Quote Defy Gravity wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Read the whole thing before posting something Tiercide: the removal of tiers. There should only be 2 dropsuit tiers, MLT for testing things out without needing skills, and STD for when you have the skills to use the dropsuit. There are many threads on the subject, this and this, but I thought I should make one specifically about how it should be handled. gbghg's thread covered why it needs to happen, and this thread is mostly about how to implement it, but basically here is why it needs to happen in case you don't want to read a bunch of paragraphs: Tiers create imbalance in PVP, and there are no options besides PVP for new players to engage in until they can compete. This means players with less SP have an unreasonably massive disadvantage, and no other option besides getting stomped by vets for months to catch up. Some people might say something stupid like "New Eden isn't fair, HTFU", but this hurts player retention, and ultimately hurts the game's longevity; even EVE got rid of the tiers on the ships, and chose to go with just specializations. Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked. Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players using the same suit type, so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun. [What should be tiercided & what should not]: Dropsuits and ONLY dropsuits should be tiercided. Weapons, equipment, and modules should remain tiered; this is because low tier weapons, equipment, and modules still have a purpose as low PG/CPU costing alternatives which can be useful in making a fitting. Low tier dropsuits however have no such advantage when creating a fit. [MLT basic frame dropsuits and their skills]: Militia tier needs to exist as a way to test things out without SP investment. Make militia gear equivalent to the current ADV basic frame dropsuits. They should retain the same ISK cost as MLT suits. [STD basic frame droptuits]: Standard basic frames should be the equivalent of the current PRO basic frames. Should cost the same as the current STD suits. The operation skills for basic frames need to give some kind of bonus to justify having 5 levels since specializations are unlocked at level 3. This bonus should also apply to all dropsuit specialization in that racial frame size. [Specializations]: Some of you may be thinking "without tiers, why would I spend SP on dropsuits?", the answer is to unlock specializations, and skill bonuses. Specializations should be a bit more expensive than the basic frame counterparts, but not by much since they aren't meant to be better, just more specialized at one particular area. Tiercided specialized suits (like assault or logistics) should be equivalent to the current PRO specialized suits. [Monetization]: Specialized suits with no skill requirements could still be sold. Having more specializations (at least 3 per frame size) would lead to a lot of dropsuits CCP could have for sell. Certain AUR suits could have skill-bonuses of that specialization built in and maxed out to incentivize spending AUR. Don't want to max out Amarr assault skill, but want to be better with lasers? buy some AUR Amarr assaults. This is basically how I would want tierside to be handled. Only dropsuits should be effected, MLT will basically be ADV, STD should be PRO level, no more ADV and PRO dropsuits. Basic frame skills should give some kind of bonus, and there should be more specializations. YES. Fixed Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2024	Posted - 2013.11.01 03:24:00 - [89] - Quote your incorrect on one thing in eve there are tier but they go by a different name. Tech-1, Tech-2, Tech-3 and, and within those tech levels, there are countless sublevels like the ones your explaining, but those also have sublevels, and the reason this is that way is because there is soo much complex stuff in eve online that to generalize them into 3 different categories would be disastrous. having Tech levels instead of tier levels would benefit dust more like it has done with eve. but only when this game has at least 10% of the content CCP promised us, so far we barely have 5% Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6853	Posted - 2013.11.01 03:26:00 - [90] - Quote Void Echo wrote: your incorrect on one thing in eve there are tier but they go by a different name. Tech-1, Tech-2, Tech-3 and, and within those tech levels, there are countless sublevels like the ones your explaining, but those also have sublevels, and the reason this is that way is because there is soo much complex stuff in eve online that to generalize them into 3 different categories would be disastrous. having Tech levels instead of tier levels would benefit dust more like it has done with eve. but only when this game has at least 10% of the content CCP promised us, so far we barely have 5% Tech levels are more like specializations than tiers from what I understand. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+

Void Echo Blades of Dust 2024	Posted - 2013.11.01 03:48:00 - [91] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Void Echo wrote: your incorrect on one thing in eve there are tier but they go by a different name. Tech-1, Tech-2, Tech-3 and, and within those tech levels, there are countless sublevels like the ones your explaining, but those also have sublevels, and the reason this is that way is because there is soo much complex stuff in eve online that to generalize them into 3 different categories would be disastrous. having Tech levels instead of tier levels would benefit dust more like it has done with eve. but only when this game has at least 10% of the content CCP promised us, so far we barely have 5% Tech levels are more like specializations than tiers from what I understand. yet you have level 1, level 2, level 3 and so on... the higher the level you get, the more customization your allowed.. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6861	Posted - 2013.11.01 22:30:00 - [92] - Quote Still want Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1712	Posted - 2013.11.01 22:54:00 - [93] - Quote Expanding on specialisation: This is a key component of tiercide. Tiers are replaced by variants. Progression is horizontal, not vertical. What do I mean by that? People get items which are new, yes, but not any better. Specialisations have strengths over the basic frame, but also a weakness. Obviously, some people will want to use this despite the weaknesses based on their play style. Currently, we don't have variants in dropsuits besides racial and frame. If we removed tiers (how Kagehoshi has explained), this frees up the ability for developers to create new variants and easily introduce that new content we all crave because simply put, It's easier to balance for one tier than three. That's right, only one tier needs to be balanced around for tiers. The mlt tier after tiercide should only consist of the base content and no variants, which you unlock as you specialise. Now, if CCP were to introduce the Caldari Heavy/Sentinel/Commando, they need to balance against the 9 other dropsuits of the current Amarr heavies. Now, if they want to introduce Minmatar and Gallente equivalents, that's another 18 dropsuits, having to be balanced against the other 18. NOT ONLY THAT. These suits then need to be balanced against every other dropsuit in the game, consisting of 48 light/medium frames. And that's not including all the racial light variants. If we include Amarr and Caldari scouts, that's another 12 dropsuits. So if CCP wants to introduce a new dropsuit, they need to keep it balanced against a grand total of 87 dropsuits, assuming they're taking into account all racial variants. Enter tiercide. Cutting down tiers from 3 to 1 since we aren't including the MLT tier, there only needs to be consideration of 29 dropsuits when introducing a new one. A vast improvement, making it easier to get those racial variants out, and introduce specialisations. (Pilot suits, black ops scouts, combat logistics, high regeneration low buffer assaults, commanders/crusaders,Titan heavies, etc) So the question I pose to the community is: keep tiers and force CCP to balance against ridiculous numbers of suits, or get rid of tiers and get the rest of the base content, plus variants/specialisations? Hell, tiers could come back once the core content is in. Just look at vehicles, this is exactly what they're doing right now. Removing variants which are essentially tiers, because the LogiDS is better than the basic dropship in every way. But they will be reintroduced. > "I will show you fear in a handful of dust." T.S. Eliot, The Wasteland
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 7133	Posted - 2013.11.20 22:24:00 - [94] - Quote Still want to see happen Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 357	Posted - 2013.11.20 22:35:00 - [95] - Quote I do too. I wonder if implementing this would allow for different models for tech II suits? I've seen some pretty awesome concept art of suits that never made it into the game. Blatant Dust_514 recruiting in the silliest of places. :P
X7 lion Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc. 57	Posted - 2013.11.21 01:55:00 - [96] - Quote Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4677	Posted - 2013.11.21 02:02:00 - [97] - Quote X7 lion wrote: Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3842	Posted - 2013.11.21 02:05:00 - [98] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: X7 lion wrote: Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. I'd be next in line. Take your own advice, *******. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
zibathy numbertwo Nox Aeterna Security 267	Posted - 2013.11.21 02:48:00 - [99] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: X7 lion wrote: Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. No, YOU shut the ** up. Stop trying to destroy the only FPS I enjoy. If I could I would send the OP straight to hell in a handbasket. This is by far the worst suggestion I have ever seen. It fucks over game design AND content - it REMOVES it. The OP sounds like your typical commie/socialist crying out for "fairness" and less choice. Suck my FREE, LIBERTY LOVING, GALLENTEAN *. Long Live Freedom; Long Live the Federation.*
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 7154	Posted - 2013.11.21 03:16:00 - [100] - Quote zibathy numbertwo wrote: Cat Merc wrote: X7 lion wrote: Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. No, YOU shut the ** up. Stop trying to destroy the only FPS I enjoy. If I could I would send the OP straight to hell in a handbasket. This is by far the worst suggestion I have ever seen. It fucks over game design AND content - it REMOVES it. The OP sounds like your typical commie/socialist crying out for "fairness" and less choice. Suck my FREE, LIBERTY LOVING, GALLENTEAN . Yup, only a communist would want a video GAME to be fair, LOL. Seriously, I'm wondering if you're a troll or something, or if you're just stupid. The whole point of games is that they are supposed to be mostly fair contests; games are suppose to be fun, and its not fun if the odds are so stacked in favor of one player such that the other has little to no chance of victory. I can't believe I actually have to explain why fairness in a game is good. Your design argument is BS, you clearly don't have the slightest idea of the basics of games in general; giant gaps between players like this is just bad design. Your idea of content is having a bunch of suits that do the exact same thing, but some are just clearly inferior with no benefit? and you actually think its a good idea? Tiers are not content, they're the exact same things that get progressively better. Your content argument is BS. You seriously came here and spouted this "liberty" and "freedom" BS in a topic about video game balance? How useful is that "liberty" and "freedom" when the game's populations shrivels up and dies because new players quit as soon as they get out of Instant Battle Academy getting getting stomped on by vets in prototype suits. We already have more experience, knowledge, SP, and better weapons then them anyway even without the suit disparity. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt** Gû¦Gû+

Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3844	Posted - 2013.11.21 03:26:00 - [101] - Quote zibathy numbertwo wrote: Cat Merc wrote: X7 lion wrote: Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. No, YOU shut the ** up. Stop trying to destroy the only FPS I enjoy. If I could I would send the OP straight to hell in a handbasket. This is by far the worst suggestion I have ever seen. It fucks over game design AND content - it REMOVES it. The OP sounds like your typical commie/socialist crying out for "fairness" and less choice. Suck my FREE, LIBERTY LOVING, GALLENTEAN **. What it does is remove power-creep, something that actually detracts from the fun of the game. Consider how CCP Reykjavik has already done this same thing with EVE, and have been greeted with nothing but praise for doing so. Do you think that's because we're all morons or something? I mean, this is clearly a troll post, so I'm just feeding the trolls like a noob, but whatever. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
X7 lion Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc. 58	Posted - 2013.11.21 06:03:00 - [102] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: X7 lion wrote: Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. go screw your self, eon is what is wrong with this game, putting a ******* choak hold on pc.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4682	Posted - 2013.11.21 06:44:00 - [103] - Quote X7 lion wrote: Cat Merc wrote: X7 lion wrote: Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. go screw your self, eon is what is wrong with this game, putting a ******* choak hold on pc. Sadly that is your best response? Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5299	Posted - 2013.11.21 07:04:00 - [104] - Quote X7 lion wrote: Cat Merc wrote: X7 lion wrote: Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. go screw your self, eon is what is wrong with this game, putting a ******* choak hold on pc. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps you should look at the PC map? Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 574	Posted - 2013.11.21 07:18:00 - [105] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Nope Vehicles would be **** yet again We dont even have adv let alone proto mods or hulls yet your all screaming for tiercide because once again infantry have basically everything so your proto suits would be fine but we as vehicle would prob end up with madrugars and gunlogis as our proto vehicles which already get **** by proto AV Let alone the removal of basic/adv stuff so less to use The only way i would ever support tiercide is when everything is out and released and has been balanced and if that takes 2yrs then so be it but doing it right now would screw over vehicle users and that is a fact Has CCP confirmed that there will be advanced and proto tanks? No. Only specialized vehicles. KDR > ALL ME > KDR ME > ALL
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1726	Posted - 2013.11.21 12:31:00 - [106] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Nope Vehicles would be **** yet again We dont even have adv let alone proto mods or hulls yet your all screaming for tiercide because once again infantry have basically everything so your proto suits would be fine but we as vehicle would prob end up with madrugars and gunlogis as our proto vehicles which already get **** by proto AV Let alone the removal of basic/adv stuff so less to use The only way i would ever support tiercide is when everything is out and released and has been balanced and if that takes 2yrs then so be it but doing it right now would screw over vehicle users and that is a fact Has CCP confirmed that there will be advanced and proto tanks? No. Only specialized vehicles. Yet we have proto mods and turrets in 1.7 which we cannot fit all proto onto the basic tanks which are classed by meta level where 1-3 is basic, 4-6 is advanced, 7-9 as proto and anything higher is generally faction and officer which vehicles do not have access to So yes we need adv/proto vehicles so we can fit on our adv/proto mods espc for PC where currently its proto suit with proto AV weapon with proto mods vs a proto turret and basic mods and hull
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3845	Posted - 2013.11.21 12:59:00 - [107] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Nope Vehicles would be **** yet again We dont even have adv let alone proto mods or hulls yet your all screaming for tiercide because once again infantry have basically everything so your proto suits would be fine but we as vehicle would prob end up with madrugars and gunlogis as our proto vehicles which already get **** by proto AV Let alone the removal of basic/adv stuff so less to use The only way i would ever support tiercide is when everything is out and released and has been balanced and if that takes 2yrs then so be it but doing it right now would screw over vehicle users and that is a fact Has CCP confirmed that there will be advanced and proto tanks? No. Only specialized vehicles. Yet we have proto mods and turrets in 1.7 which we cannot fit all proto onto the basic tanks which are classed by meta level where 1-3 is basic, 4-6 is advanced, 7-9 as proto and anything higher is generally faction and officer which vehicles do not have access to So yes we need adv/proto vehicles so we can fit on our adv/proto mods espc for PC where currently its proto suit with proto AV weapon with proto mods vs a proto turret and basic mods and hull The higher meta levels are there for modules and not the assets that use them for a reason. Having different meta levels and thus different fitting requirements is an essential part of the fitting system, as it allows a player to further customize their suit or vehicle. The issue is that these meta levels were applied to suits, which just results in power creep. The LAST thing this game needs is yet more power creep in the form of tiers for vehicles. As many of us have been saying for months, the suit tiers need to go. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 2094	Posted - 2013.11.21 13:08:00 - [108] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I hope it happens when all suits get added. In all honesty, tiercide needs to come before me suits are added. I was thinking about the possibility of splitting each frame (light, medium, heavy) into each of the specialisations we have now. So in addition to the Sentinel and Commando for heavies, there will be a Scout and Logistics and Assault heavy. In addition to logistics and assault, there will be commando, scout and sentinel medium frame variants. In addition to light frame scouts , there will be sentinel scouts, commando scouts (like the black eagle suits), assault and logistics scouts. Essentially we have all specialisations across frames which vary in terms of eHP, passive bonuses and skills. Then differentiated racially as well. This diversity, though, especially once pilot suits come in, will be mind blowing. But the balancing task will be overwhelming with tiers. The game will progress so much faster if we drop tiers now and focus on specialisations. Previously I did say tiers could come back once the base content is all introduces and balanced, but if we implement a system like what I suggest above we wouldn't even want tiers. "When nothing is going your way, go out of your way to do nothing."
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 7322	Posted - 2013.12.07 05:20:00 - [109] - Quote I want Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
The-Errorist Closed For Business For All Mankind 400	Posted - 2013.12.20 04:57:00 - [110] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I want But, does does CCP want this?

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 815	Posted - 2013.12.20 04:58:00 - [111] - Quote Rather than removing tiers, why not add more aspects to the different tiers instead of just Improvement? What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage? The pile of garbage looks nicer.
The-Errorist Closed For Business For All Mankind 401	Posted - 2013.12.20 05:12:00 - [112] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Rather than removing tiers, why not add more aspects to the different tiers instead of just Improvement? You mean having sidegrades instead of upgrades, yes, that's what KAGEHOSHI is already suggesting in this thread.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 817	Posted - 2013.12.20 05:23:00 - [113] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Rather than removing tiers, why not add more aspects to the different tiers instead of just Improvement? You mean having sidegrades instead of upgrades, yes, that's what KAGEHOSHI is already suggesting in this thread. Actually, what I'm suggesting is more like "diagonal-grades". What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage? The pile of garbage looks nicer.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 342	Posted - 2013.12.20 08:39:00 - [114] - Quote I like OPs idea. Makes specializing so much better. Suppose we also do it like Eve does, and have a general Logistics suit skill? Meaning that if you unlock the logistics suit skill, and take minmatar suits to 5, you can use minmatar logi suits. and if you then take caldari suits to 5, you can use caldari logi as well.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 831	Posted - 2013.12.20 08:40:00 - [115] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I like OPs idea. Makes specializing so much better. Suppose we also do it like Eve does, and have a general Logistics suit skill? Meaning that if you unlock the logistics suit skill, and take minmatar suits to 5, you can use minmatar logi suits. and if you then take caldari suits to 5, you can use caldari logi as well. Me gusta! EVE does many things right. The skill system is one of them. What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage? The pile of garbage looks nicer.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 7719	Posted - 2014.01.02 15:07:00 - [116] - Quote Revolutionary bump! Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
The-Errorist 444	Posted - 2014.01.03 01:06:00 - [117] - Quote Standard bump
Adelia Lafayette DUST University Ivy League 516	Posted - 2014.01.03 01:42:00 - [118] - Quote yes please. I've been agreeing to tiercide for a while now. I want more variety not tiers. Assault dropship gets blown up.... (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ "Kitten this I'm out"... ..."I'm back"
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 653	Posted - 2014.01.03 02:07:00 - [119] - Quote Yes now that we have CoD and BF like TTK, and Aim Assist with Bullet homming and magnetic tracking of moving targets Proof... Why have any other scaling or diversity in the game at all? Why is there EVEN a DUST in the first place? You should be at end game in 1-2 weeks max and then put dust on a shelf to only touch a few times a year... What sad days these are.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 7741	Posted - 2014.01.03 02:31:00 - [120] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Yes now that we have CoD and BF like TTK, and Aim Assist with Bullet homming and magnetic tracking of moving targets Proof... Why have any other scaling or diversity in the game at all? Why is there EVEN a DUST in the first place? You should be at end game in 1-2 weeks max and then put dust on a shelf to only touch a few times a year... What sad days these are. Aim assist and TTK is irrelevant to this topic; leave that crap outside. With everyone having suits equivalent to ADV or PRO, TTK would actually increase because of how much HP can be stacked. You should be supporting this if you want higher TTK. So you're against this because it makes Dust less special in your opinion? even though its an unbalanced system that hurts the game's longevity? That's just dumb. Tiers are a poor way of adding diversity, especially since higher tier suits fill the same roles as their lower tier counterparts, but are just better with no downsides. True diversity comes from the specializations, not the tiers. You're just a jive turkey who doesn't want to lose his ability to protostomp newbs fresh out of the academy with a squad of corpmates. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 657	Posted - 2014.01.03 02:59:00 - [121] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Bethhy wrote: Yes now that we have CoD and BF like TTK, and Aim Assist with Bullet homming and magnetic tracking of moving targets Proof... Why have any other scaling or diversity in the game at all? Why is there EVEN a DUST in the first place? You should be at end game in 1-2 weeks max and then put dust on a shelf to only touch a few times a year... What sad days these are. Aim assist and TTK is irrelevant to this topic; leave that crap outside. With everyone having suits equivalent to ADV or PRO, TTK would actually increase because of how much HP can be stacked. You should be supporting this if you want higher TTK. So you're against this because it makes Dust less special in your opinion? even though its an unbalanced system that hurts the game's longevity? That's just dumb. Tiers are a poor way of adding diversity, especially since higher tier suits fill the same roles as their lower tier counterparts, but are just better with no downsides. True diversity comes from the specializations, not the tiers. You're just a jive turkey who doesn't want to lose his ability to protostomp newbs fresh out of the academy with a squad of corpmates. If appearance of my character was everything sure. But I Have asked for scaling or playgrounds or any kind of option to KEEP diversity in the game while giving new players a chance to actually get on the many learning curves in DUST. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1370431#post1370431 Even IF Militia suits had no Active Skill bonuses from the Mercenary... So everyone wearing Militia items don't have their skills register. Then have a Game mode where it's militia suits only is even a better option. I would prefer a game that continues to scale as it grows. It creates Specialized mercenaries and roles.. Not a bunch of mercenaries that are maxed out or near maxed out in every role and class in the game "zzzzzzz". It dumbs things down to make it "easy" because it takes to long? who wants a game they can get to the end of so quick? \I don't want that regardless if I'm on this toon or my newly made 900k SP logistics toon. I do not like green egg's and ham, I do not like them, Sam I am.
Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4342	Posted - 2014.01.03 04:00:00 - [122] - Quote Bethhy wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Bethhy wrote: Yes now that we have CoD and BF like TTK, and Aim Assist with Bullet homming and magnetic tracking of moving targets Proof... Why have any other scaling or diversity in the game at all? Why is there EVEN a DUST in the first place? You should be at end game in 1-2 weeks max and then put dust on a shelf to only touch a few times a year... What sad days these are. Aim assist and TTK is irrelevant to this topic; leave that crap outside. With everyone having suits equivalent to ADV or PRO, TTK would actually increase because of how much HP can be stacked. You should be supporting this if you want higher TTK. So you're against this because it makes Dust less special in your opinion? even though its an unbalanced system that hurts the game's longevity? That's just dumb. Tiers are a poor way of adding diversity, especially since higher tier suits fill the same roles as their lower tier counterparts, but are just better with no downsides. True diversity comes from the specializations, not the tiers. You're just a jive turkey who doesn't want to lose his ability to protostomp newbs fresh out of the academy with a squad of corpmates. If appearance of my character was everything sure. But I Have asked for scaling or playgrounds or any kind of option to KEEP diversity in the game while giving new players a chance to actually get on the many learning curves in DUST. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1370431#post1370431 Even IF Militia suits had no Active Skill bonuses from the Mercenary... So everyone wearing Militia items don't have their skills register. Then have a Game mode where it's militia suits only is even a better option. I would prefer a game that continues to scale as it grows. It creates Specialized mercenaries and roles.. Not a bunch of mercenaries that are maxed out or near maxed out in every role and class in the game "zzzzzzz". It dumbs things down to make it "easy" because it takes to long? who wants a game they can get to the end of so quick? \I don't want that regardless if I'm on this toon or my newly made 900k SP logistics toon. I do not like green egg's and ham, I do not like them, Sam I am. The idea is that the Frame suits get two bonuses, and the Specialist suits get four and role bonuses as necessary. Two of the four would be related to the frame skill, and the other two to the specialist skill, such that someone that puts all five levels into both is rewarded with better performance. However, this also means that someone who just gets both to level four can at least compete, as opposed to the current climate of getting **** on unless you can run Proto in at least one role. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 659	Posted - 2014.01.03 04:29:00 - [123] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Bethhy wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Bethhy wrote: Yes now that we have CoD and BF like TTK, and Aim Assist with Bullet homming and magnetic tracking of moving targets Proof... Why have any other scaling or diversity in the game at all? Why is there EVEN a DUST in the first place? You should be at end game in 1-2 weeks max and then put dust on a shelf to only touch a few times a year... What sad days these are. Aim assist and TTK is irrelevant to this topic; leave that crap outside. With everyone having suits equivalent to ADV or PRO, TTK would actually increase because of how much HP can be stacked. You should be supporting this if you want higher TTK. So you're against this because it makes Dust less special in your opinion? even though its an unbalanced system that hurts the game's longevity? That's just dumb. Tiers are a poor way of adding diversity, especially since higher tier suits fill the same roles as their lower tier counterparts, but are just better with no downsides. True diversity comes from the specializations, not the tiers. You're just a jive turkey who doesn't want to lose his ability to protostomp newbs fresh out of the academy with a squad of corpmates. If appearance of my character was everything sure. But I Have asked for scaling or playgrounds or any kind of option to KEEP diversity in the game while giving new players a chance to actually get on the many learning curves in DUST. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1370431#post1370431 Even IF Militia suits had no Active Skill bonuses from the Mercenary... So everyone wearing Militia items don't have their skills register. Then have a Game mode where it's militia suits only is even a better option. I would prefer a game that continues to scale as it grows. It creates Specialized mercenaries and roles.. Not a bunch of mercenaries that are maxed out or near maxed out in every role and class in the game "zzzzzzz". It dumbs things down to make it "easy" because it takes to long? who wants a game they can get to the end of so quick? \I don't want that regardless if I'm on this toon or my newly made 900k SP logistics toon. I do not like green egg's and ham, I do not like them, Sam I am. The idea is that the Frame suits get two bonuses, and the Specialist suits get four and role bonuses as necessary. Two of the four would be related to the frame skill, and the other two to the specialist skill, such that someone that puts all five levels into both is rewarded with better performance. However, this also means that someone who just gets both to level four can at least compete, as opposed to the current climate of getting **** on unless you can run Proto in at least one role. Everyone AGREES there needs to be role specific bonuses on suits... not blanket "tank" based bonuses... a Tank, DPS, Healer, Scout class system... the MMO thing or EVE thing or? the Elephant in the room no dev wants to talk about. But I don't agree we need to get rid of the different Tier's in those classes, that have not even been defined yet. Or that DUST is even close to the max capabilities of what Tiers could be, for example Tech II?. Regardless of how easy or accessible you make the "Aiming" or the "Equipment and Weapons" or having a module that makes you "See all the enemies" it will not make a new FPS player or new to a CCP game player be good at it or stand a chance magically. The ONLY way we could or CAN, is to allow players to learn how to play a FPS shooter game with EVE like Elements and there is going to have to be a teaching process. Not hold their hands with Magentic bullets and tracking, Big boy suits in a couple weeks because that will suddenly make them better?(it never did for me learning) a module to show the where the fight is but don't explain how to use it? We need Emphasis on Classes, Heavy specializations in Races and then into Tier's (and then different technology levels... )and Heavy tutorials on those classes. We need a CCP game in all it's glory. not a Dumbed down CCP game. The key factor in everything is the Learning curve in EVE and avoiding that transition here while offering the massive depth capabilities. And for that we need very good explanations for new players coming into DUST, on HOW TO PLAY IT... not give them a bunch of stuff without explanation or even having time learning how to use it. We need to focus around the learning curve of the NPE and the advancement in DUST around that. At no point ever should someone a month out be coming up against You, Or a lot from the absolute slayer groups like Nyain, Imps, A.E., O.H.. etc.. Those corporation markers may bring some animosity from some Mercenaries, but regardless of how you scale the suits so a new player has more tools to face these people they will get destroyed. You take an all star group of top 10 dust'ers from the forum lists. then take a top 10 FPS list from the world with no DUST exp. and put them all in battle academy in all the same situation right now. The Experience and time playing this game will trump any self thoughts of greatness every time. and that is the fact here we have to face, and start tailoring around that not dumbing a CCP game down because its a F2p game and it should be "easy" That is why this is sad.
Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4345	Posted - 2014.01.03 04:59:00 - [124] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Everyone AGREES there needs to be role specific bonuses on suits... not blanket "tank" based bonuses... a Tank, DPS, Healer, Scout class system... the MMO thing or EVE thing or? the Elephant in the room no dev wants to talk about. But I don't agree we need to get rid of the different Tier's in those classes, that have not even been defined yet. Or that DUST is even close to the max capabilities of what Tiers could be, for example Tech II?. Regardless of how easy or accessible you make the "Aiming" or the "Equipment and Weapons" or having a module that makes you "See all the enemies" it will not make a new FPS player or new to a CCP game player be good at it or stand a chance magically. The ONLY way we could or CAN, is to allow players to learn how to play a FPS shooter game with EVE like Elements and there is going to have to be a teaching process. Not hold their hands with Magentic bullets and tracking, Big boy suits in a couple weeks because that will suddenly make them better?(it never did for me learning) a module to show the where the fight is but don't explain how to use it? We need Emphasis on Classes, Heavy specializations in Races and then into Tier's (and then different technology levels... )and Heavy tutorials on those classes. We need a CCP game in all it's glory. not a Dumbed down CCP game. The key factor in everything is the Learning curve in EVE and avoiding that transition here while offering the massive depth capabilities. And for that we need very good explanations for new players coming into DUST, on HOW TO PLAY IT... not give them a bunch of stuff without explanation or even having time learning how to use it. We need to focus around the learning curve of the NPE and the advancement in DUST around that. At no point ever should someone a month out be coming up against You, Or a lot from the absolute slayer groups like Nyain, Imps, A.E., O.H.. etc.. Those corporation markers may bring some animosity from some Mercenaries, but regardless of how you scale the suits so a new player has more tools to face these people they will get destroyed. You take an all star group of top 10 dust'ers from the forum lists. then take a top 10 FPS list from the world with no DUST exp. and put them all in battle academy in all the same situation right now. The Experience and time playing this game will trump any self thoughts of greatness every time. and that is the fact here we have to face, and start tailoring around that not dumbing a CCP game down because its a F2p game and it should be "easy" That is why this is sad. Part of EVE though and part of what they've been redoing over the past few expansions as part of "Tiericide" is eliminating the tier system in ships(suits) in order to replace the tiers with a set of ships that have defined roles and are ALL useful, no matter what. Right now, once you get Proto gear, the only reason to use any suit below it is to save money, and the Frame suits cost MORE than the Specialist suits, meaning that a new player has a painful grind awaiting them at the start just to be useful to a Corp or even just to be able to have fun. The concept here is that you would have Militia suits that requires no skills but has lower capability and is used for the free Starter fits to let new players get into the game. Then you have Frame suits that require a skill and give you a pair of more general bonuses that allow the suit to grow with you as you progress. Finally, the Specialist suit is the pinnacle of suits, and gives you more bonuses, but with 2 of the 4 being semi-general and controlled by the Frame skill to reward people who get that skill to 5. This way dedication is rewarded at all levels, and you don't end up with the negative "power creep" that we have right now. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 659	Posted - 2014.01.03 05:23:00 - [125] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Bethhy wrote: Everyone AGREES there needs to be role specific bonuses on suits... not blanket "tank" based bonuses... a Tank, DPS, Healer, Scout class system... the MMO thing or EVE thing or? the Elephant in the room no dev wants to talk about. But I don't agree we need to get rid of the different Tier's in those classes, that have not even been defined yet. Or that DUST is even close to the max capabilities of what Tiers could be, for example Tech II?. Regardless of how easy or accessible you make the "Aiming" or the "Equipment and Weapons" or having a module that makes you "See all the enemies" it will not make a new FPS player or new to a CCP game player be good at it or stand a chance magically. The ONLY way we could or CAN, is to allow players to learn how to play a FPS shooter game with EVE like Elements and there is going to have to be a teaching process. Not hold their hands with Magentic bullets and tracking, Big boy suits in a couple weeks because that will suddenly make them better?(it never did for me learning) a module to show the where the fight is but don't explain how to use it? We need Emphasis on Classes, Heavy specializations in Races and then into Tier's (and then different technology levels... )and Heavy tutorials on those classes. We need a CCP game in all it's glory. not a Dumbed down CCP game. The key factor in everything is the Learning curve in EVE and avoiding that transition here while offering the massive depth capabilities. And for that we need very good explanations for new players coming into DUST, on HOW TO PLAY IT... not give them a bunch of stuff without explanation or even having time learning how to use it. We need to focus around the learning curve of the NPE and the advancement in DUST around that. At no point ever should someone a month out be coming up against You, Or a lot from the absolute slayer groups like Nyain, Imps, A.E., O.H.. etc.. Those corporation markers may bring some animosity from some Mercenaries, but regardless of how you scale the suits so a new player has more tools to face these people they will get destroyed. You take an all star group of top 10 dust'ers from the forum lists. then take a top 10 FPS list from the world with no DUST exp. and put them all in battle academy in all the same situation right now. The Experience and time playing this game will trump any self thoughts of greatness every time. and that is the fact here we have to face, and start tailoring around that not dumbing a CCP game down because its a F2p game and it should be "easy" That is why this is sad. Part of EVE though and part of what they've been redoing over the past few expansions as part of "Tiericide" is eliminating the tier system in ships(suits) in order to replace the tiers with a set of ships that have defined roles and are ALL useful, no matter what. Right now, once you get Proto gear, the only reason to use any suit below it is to save money, and the Frame suits cost MORE than the Specialist suits, meaning that a new player has a painful grind awaiting them at the start just to be useful to a Corp or even just to be able to have fun. The concept here is that you would have Militia suits that requires no skills but has lower capability and is used for the free Starter fits to let new players get into the game. Then you have Frame suits that require a skill and give you a pair of more general bonuses that allow the suit to grow with you as you progress. Finally, the Specialist suit is the pinnacle of suits, and gives you more bonuses, but with 2 of the 4 being semi-general and controlled by the Frame skill to reward people who get that skill to 5. This way dedication is rewarded at all levels, and you don't end up with the negative "power creep" that we have right now. They have dumbed down EVE a lot.. but it doesn't feel that way still for a new player coming in. There is just so much to EVE, so many things that p[layers barely touch, Moon Mining, Reactions, PI, FW, 0.0, Manufacturing, R&D, Research, BPC, Market Tycoon. and they are continuing to add a lot to it... Including player exploration and universe expansion. they can afford to make the ships more accessible as they try and populate 0.0. All we do is try to dumb DUST down and make it "easier" instead of explaining it and giving better customization, Specialization, roles and guides. You don't get it. Putting a few month old player in a fancier suit and making the strongest suits in the game scale closely to those isn't going to change anything for the few month old player. They will still get destroyed. Putting them against a veteran will always be a problem in a CCP game. worse so when we take individual aiming skill out of it. DUST's depth is in the future of EVE not public matches where 2 year old DUST mercenaries fight 1.5 month old DUST mercenaries... it has to depend on more then just the 4 races(that have been here for 11 years) and a couple options as your suit grows with you. It needs hundreds of options in each of those races as you scale in the tiers(Hence the diversity? ("MobIus is known for this suit with this weapon combo with this kind of tank and equipment etc... and there is only 20 others like you.), When 0.0 Sovereignty and Planet control is fought with suit's having 10x(Dream) the potential the current proto does. Making fights intense on level's not seen in FPS's.
Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4346	Posted - 2014.01.03 05:57:00 - [126] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Bethhy wrote: Everyone AGREES there needs to be role specific bonuses on suits... not blanket "tank" based bonuses... a Tank, DPS, Healer, Scout class system... the MMO thing or EVE thing or? the Elephant in the room no dev wants to talk about. But I don't agree we need to get rid of the different Tier's in those classes, that have not even been defined yet. Or that DUST is even close to the max capabilities of what Tiers could be, for example Tech II?. Regardless of how easy or accessible you make the "Aiming" or the "Equipment and Weapons" or having a module that makes you "See all the enemies" it will not make a new FPS player or new to a CCP game player be good at it or stand a chance magically. The ONLY way we could or CAN, is to allow players to learn how to play a FPS shooter game with EVE like Elements and there is going to have to be a teaching process. Not hold their hands with Magentic bullets and tracking, Big boy suits in a couple weeks because that will suddenly make them better?(it never did for me learning) a module to show the where the fight is but don't explain how to use it? We need Emphasis on Classes, Heavy specializations in Races and then into Tier's (and then different technology levels... )and Heavy tutorials on those classes. We need a CCP game in all it's glory. not a Dumbed down CCP game. The key factor in everything is the Learning curve in EVE and avoiding that transition here while offering the massive depth capabilities. And for that we need very good explanations for new players coming into DUST, on HOW TO PLAY IT... not give them a bunch of stuff without explanation or even having time learning how to use it. We need to focus around the learning curve of the NPE and the advancement in DUST around that. At no point ever should someone a month out be coming up against You, Or a lot from the absolute slayer groups like Nyain, Imps, A.E., O.H.. etc.. Those corporation markers may bring some animosity from some Mercenaries, but regardless of how you scale the suits so a new player has more tools to face these people they will get destroyed. You take an all star group of top 10 dust'ers from the forum lists. then take a top 10 FPS list from the world with no DUST exp. and put them all in battle academy in all the same situation right now. The Experience and time playing this game will trump any self thoughts of greatness every time. and that is the fact here we have to face, and start tailoring around that not dumbing a CCP game down because its a F2p game and it should be "easy" That is why this is sad. Part of EVE though and part of what they've been redoing over the past few expansions as part of "Tiericide" is eliminating the tier system in ships(suits) in order to replace the tiers with a set of ships that have defined roles and are ALL useful, no matter what. Right now, once you get Proto gear, the only reason to use any suit below it is to save money, and the Frame suits cost MORE than the Specialist suits, meaning that a new player has a painful grind awaiting them at the start just to be useful to a Corp or even just to be able to have fun. The concept here is that you would have Militia suits that requires no skills but has lower capability and is used for the free Starter fits to let new players get into the game. Then you have Frame suits that require a skill and give you a pair of more general bonuses that allow the suit to grow with you as you progress. Finally, the Specialist suit is the pinnacle of suits, and gives you more bonuses, but with 2 of the 4 being semi-general and controlled by the Frame skill to reward people who get that skill to 5. This way dedication is rewarded at all levels, and you don't end up with the negative "power creep" that we have right now. They have dumbed down EVE a lot.. but it doesn't feel that way still for a new player coming in. There is just so much to EVE, so many things that p[layers barely touch, Moon Mining, Reactions, PI, FW, 0.0, Manufacturing, R&D, Research, BPC, Market Tycoon. and they are continuing to add a lot to it... Including player exploration and universe expansion. they can afford to make the ships more accessible as they try and populate 0.0. All we do is try to dumb DUST down and make it "easier" instead of explaining it and giving better customization, Specialization, roles and guides. You don't get it. Putting a few month old player in a fancier suit and making the strongest suits in the game scale closely to those isn't going to change anything for the few month old player. They will still get destroyed. Putting them against a veteran will always be a problem in a CCP game. worse so when we take individual aiming skill out of it. DUST's depth is in the future of EVE not public matches where 2 year old DUST mercenaries fight 1.5 month old DUST mercenaries... it has to depend on more then just the 4 races(that have been here for 11 years) and a couple options as your suit grows with you. It needs hundreds of options in each of those races as you scale in the tiers(Hence the diversity? ("MobIus is known for this suit with this weapon combo with this kind of tank and equipment etc... and there is only 20 others like you.), When 0.0 Sovereignty and Planet control is fought with suit's having 10x(Dream) the potential the current proto does. Making fights intense on level's not seen in FPS's. And how does the current meaningless power creep brought on by tiers of suits contribute to any of this? I hope you aren't one of those people who wants to expand the tier system to vehicles as well. I mean, haven't you considered why we don't have tiers for vehicles? Why we only have specializations for them that are designed for a specific task? Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 790	Posted - 2014.01.12 00:08:00 - [127] - Quote -snip-
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1175	Posted - 2014.01.12 00:16:00 - [128] - Quote Bump Tarn chose peace. Tallen chose war. Where is my Gallente sidearm? SoonGäó514
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 7999	Posted - 2014.01.12 09:11:00 - [129] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: Bump Thanks Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8009	Posted - 2014.01.13 06:50:00 - [130] - Quote More thoughts welcomed Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

Denn Maell PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives 59	Posted - 2014.01.13 07:24:00 - [131] - Quote On the whole I agree with everything you have said. At this point trying to balance differences in scale and differences in kind is tricky to do, and frankly probably impossible given the lack of released content. How are we supposed to know that this or that really is OP when we don't know how it will stack up when the game content is 100%? I've always felt tho, that including weapons and modules in the teiricide would give the devs a better chance to tweak weapons. There are too many weapons at our disposal that are considered "not worth using unless your stacking damage mods". But I do admit that I sometimes think I may be wrong in that regard. Simplifying the tiers of the suits would be wonderful as we might see more special role suits, with prototypes fulfilling the roles of ultra specialized suits. The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field: One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8250	Posted - 2014.01.21 18:13:00 - [132] - Quote Do it! Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10448	Posted - 2014.04.19 06:35:00 - [133] - Quote I want this still Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+


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