DUST Search - [Request] Tiercide & specifics on how to implement it

Cross Atu wrote:

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

Read the whole thing before posting something

Did that, and just so we're clear I do understand that you are talking about dropsuits not about everything. Now on to the meat of the subject.

Quote:

Tiercide: the removal of tiers. There should only be 2 dropsuit tiers, MLT for testing things out without needing skills, and STD for when you have the skills to use the dropsuit.

There are many threads on the subject, this and this, but I thought I should make one specifically about how it should be handled. gbghg's thread covered why it needs to happen, and this thread is mostly about how to implement it, but basically here is why it needs to happen in case you don't want to read a bunch of paragraphs:

Tiers create imbalance in PVP, and there are no options besides PVP for new players to engage in until they can compete. This means players with less SP have an unreasonably massive disadvantage, and no other option besides getting stomped by vets for months to catch up. Some people might say something stupid like "New Eden isn't fair, HTFU", but this hurts player retention, and ultimately hurts the game's longevity; even EVE got rid of the tiers on the ships, and chose to go with just specializations.

Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked.

Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players, so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun.

Tiercide as a general concept is cool to me, unfortunately most iterations of it are far less desirable than the general concept. I have not checked out the two linked threads yet, that's my next stop, but at this point I am not persuaded that this change is required or beneficial. For example some of the listed motives are, simply put, directly in conflict with my own testing. I have a zero SP character who runs starter fits, I test on this character regularly (usually at least one day a week) and have not encountered "an unreasonably massive disadvantage". Lets be clear here, I am a support logi, in part because my gun game is not the strongest out there, so I'm playing on a character with zero sp, in starter fits, in a role I'm mediocre at and tending to earn 500-1500 WP per game even in matches with organized corp squads running full proto.

Now I am not saying that gear and SP have no impact, but it is certainly not an impact that I feel can accurately be described as "massive". Furthermore the most painful burden placed on my zero SP character when contrasted with several of my other characters? It's not HP, or even eHP, it is mobility. That's right the speed with which I can sprint, run, drive, etc. has a drastically larger and more meaningful impact on game play than relative HP does. I understand why the free starter LAV was removed but it was also one of the harshest and most cutting nerfs to new players ability to compete that has happened since live launch. Stripping new players of that mobility creates a slower and more frustrating form of game play and even if they are buying basic LAVs to compensate those death buggies still explode if you sneeze on them wrong thus costing the new player time and ISK neither of which they can as readily afford.
Advanced players who have more SP can sprint longer, recover faster, and sprint faster than the standard players, they can also field better vehicles, possess better uplinks, and have enhanced hacking rates. There superior speed gives them superior adaptability and that has a much more significant effect on new players than does the relative HP of dropsuits.

Re: Your #2, I've had proto since the start of the live game due to open beta play and I do not run it most of the time, more than 80% of my pub matches (which are the majority of my game play) use fits that are a mix of Militia and Standard suits and mods. Even if money were no object and I could run proto all match every match I still wouldn't because using lower meta gear is better training to make my player skills more effective for those important moments where I do run proto. Simply put I'm an object lesson in how this point doesn't hold true, just because some players might "go proto or go home" doesn't mean everyone does it, I certainly don't.

Re: #3, see the first part of my post, the problem isn't HP, or eHP it is speed. Flattening TTK (time to kill) game wide would reduce diversity and would not address the core shortfall confronting low SP characters/new players.

Now I'm going to go give those links a look.

Cheers,
Cross


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hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.09.16 23:25:00 - [1] - Quote I agree tho ccp has to fix the problem they are having with putting the bonuses on the suits but once they do yes this needs to be the direction they head. how I want to see it done is like 3-5 basic suits with bonuses to different roles/weapons, and then the specialized suits(ie pilot, scout, assault, logi, sentinal, commando) would be better bonuses and slight better base stat versions of the basics with the incentive to level being the bonuses they get.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.09.16 23:41:00 - [2] - Quote zibathy numbertwo wrote: Let me quickly sum up what I said above: Your ideal game is BF3 or CoD where everyone has the same health and there is as little progression as possible because that's "fair". far from it this is emphasizing roles over work to the point where combat is basically a low health shooter a la cod of battle field. not to mention you aren't removing progressing as the suits would have to be leveled for full effectiveness and if this is done right you will also have to level to gain access to suits with different role bonuses. and this is a shooter first and foremost, no it is not nor should it be cod or BF, but it is a shooter and the focus should not be leveling to make suits useless but leveling to make them more capable. This is actually the beauty of new Eden over say WOW instead of climbing a continuous progression ladder that makes every thing you strived for useless it instead makes what you worked for more powerful and more versatile.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.09.16 23:55:00 - [3] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Read the whole thing before posting something Did that, and just so we're clear I do understand that you are talking about dropsuits not about everything. Now on to the meat of the subject. Quote: Tiercide: the removal of tiers. There should only be 2 dropsuit tiers, MLT for testing things out without needing skills, and STD for when you have the skills to use the dropsuit. There are many threads on the subject, this and this, but I thought I should make one specifically about how it should be handled. gbghg's thread covered why it needs to happen, and this thread is mostly about how to implement it, but basically here is why it needs to happen in case you don't want to read a bunch of paragraphs: Tiers create imbalance in PVP, and there are no options besides PVP for new players to engage in until they can compete. This means players with less SP have an unreasonably massive disadvantage, and no other option besides getting stomped by vets for months to catch up. Some people might say something stupid like "New Eden isn't fair, HTFU", but this hurts player retention, and ultimately hurts the game's longevity; even EVE got rid of the tiers on the ships, and chose to go with just specializations. Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked. Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players, so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun. Tiercide as a general concept is cool to me, unfortunately most iterations of it are far less desirable than the general concept. I have not checked out the two linked threads yet, that's my next stop, but at this point I am not persuaded that this change is required or beneficial. For example some of the listed motives are, simply put, directly in conflict with my own testing. I have a zero SP character who runs starter fits, I test on this character regularly (usually at least one day a week) and have not encountered "an unreasonably massive disadvantage". Lets be clear here, I am a support logi, in part because my gun game is not the strongest out there, so I'm playing on a character with zero sp, in starter fits, in a role I'm mediocre at and tending to earn 500-1500 WP per game even in matches with organized corp squads running full proto. Now I am not saying that gear and SP have no impact, but it is certainly not an impact that I feel can accurately be described as "massive". Furthermore the most painful burden placed on my zero SP character when contrasted with several of my other characters? It's not HP, or even eHP, it is *mobility. That's right the speed with which I can sprint, run, drive, etc. has a drastically larger and more meaningful impact on game play than relative HP does. I understand why the free starter LAV was removed but it was also one of the harshest and most cutting nerfs to new players ability to compete that has happened since live launch. Stripping new players of that mobility creates a slower and more frustrating form of game play and even if they are buying basic LAVs to compensate those death buggies still explode if you sneeze on them wrong thus costing the new player time and ISK neither of which they can as readily afford. Advanced players who have more SP can sprint longer, recover faster, and sprint faster than the standard players, they can also field better vehicles, possess better uplinks, and have enhanced hacking rates. There superior speed gives them superior adaptability and that has a much more significant effect on new players than does the relative HP of dropsuits. Re: Your #2, I've had proto since the start of the live game due to open beta play and I do not run it most of the time, more than 80% of my pub matches (which are the majority of my game play) use fits that are a mix of Militia and Standard suits and mods. Even if money were no object and I could run proto all match every match I still wouldn't because using lower meta gear is better training to make my player skills more effective for those important moments where I do run proto. Simply put I'm an object lesson in how this point doesn't hold true, just because some players might "go proto or go home" doesn't mean everyone does it, I certainly don't. Re: #3, see the first part of my post, the problem isn't HP, or eHP it is speed. Flattening TTK (time to kill) game wide would reduce diversity and would not* address the core shortfall confronting low SP characters/new players. Now I'm going to go give those links a look. Cheers, Cross you bring up a valid point that proto is not that big an advantage but if you flatten ttk and add a variety of suit with different bonuses you actually create a more diverse battlefield as bonuses play a bigger role then stacking tanks and damage mods to try and compete with proto or to outright stomp in proto.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.09.17 00:12:00 - [4] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Sigh, old post https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75214 hhhmmmm I like although I would give the light frames a bonus to weapon damage at a loss in mag capacity, instead of the range bonus, thats more fitting for a hit and run suit and would allow the suits to be extremely fragile as they should be. think burst damage/rouge/'assassin style play, good for strategic single target take down at any range. Also great at being the fox in the hen house.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 119	Posted - 2013.09.17 01:51:00 - [5] - Quote Just wow ... iron wolf that is one of the best thought out posts I've seen to date....... yea that implimented as is would be freaking perfect. Though I'd like to add two things 1) after all the work you sugested is done added and ballanced, add more basic suits with different roles. 2)make a heavy only module (or make it a base heavy abilty) that allows them to sprint as fast or faster then a scout over very long distances but only in a straight line and when they stop sprinting they have a cool down in their sprint that would eqivilent to the time it would take fOr their stamina to fully regen normally. This would allow the heavy to bring its guns to bear in a big fight but would leave it vunerable in the same way it is now, guys out running and out rangeing them and their inability to retreat.