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Void Echo
Blades of Dust
2024
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Posted - 2013.11.01 03:48:00 -
[91] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Void Echo wrote:your incorrect on one thing in eve there are tier but they go by a different name.
Tech-1, Tech-2, Tech-3 and, and within those tech levels, there are countless sublevels like the ones your explaining, but those also have sublevels, and the reason this is that way is because there is soo much complex stuff in eve online that to generalize them into 3 different categories would be disastrous.
having Tech levels instead of tier levels would benefit dust more like it has done with eve. but only when this game has at least 10% of the content CCP promised us, so far we barely have 5% Tech levels are more like specializations than tiers from what I understand.
yet you have level 1, level 2, level 3 and so on... the higher the level you get, the more customization your allowed..
Closed Beta Vet
Level 2 Forum Warrior
"In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6861
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Posted - 2013.11.01 22:30:00 -
[92] - Quote
Still want
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
1712
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Posted - 2013.11.01 22:54:00 -
[93] - Quote
Expanding on specialisation:
This is a key component of tiercide. Tiers are replaced by variants. Progression is horizontal, not vertical. What do I mean by that?
People get items which are new, yes, but not any better. Specialisations have strengths over the basic frame, but also a weakness. Obviously, some people will want to use this despite the weaknesses based on their play style.
Currently, we don't have variants in dropsuits besides racial and frame. If we removed tiers (how Kagehoshi has explained), this frees up the ability for developers to create new variants and easily introduce that new content we all crave because simply put,
It's easier to balance for one tier than three.
That's right, only one tier needs to be balanced around for tiers. The mlt tier after tiercide should only consist of the base content and no variants, which you unlock as you specialise.
Now, if CCP were to introduce the Caldari Heavy/Sentinel/Commando, they need to balance against the 9 other dropsuits of the current Amarr heavies. Now, if they want to introduce Minmatar and Gallente equivalents, that's another 18 dropsuits, having to be balanced against the other 18.
NOT ONLY THAT. These suits then need to be balanced against every other dropsuit in the game, consisting of 48 light/medium frames. And that's not including all the racial light variants. If we include Amarr and Caldari scouts, that's another 12 dropsuits.
So if CCP wants to introduce a new dropsuit, they need to keep it balanced against a grand total of 87 dropsuits, assuming they're taking into account all racial variants.
Enter tiercide.
Cutting down tiers from 3 to 1 since we aren't including the MLT tier, there only needs to be consideration of 29 dropsuits when introducing a new one. A vast improvement, making it easier to get those racial variants out, and introduce specialisations. (Pilot suits, black ops scouts, combat logistics, high regeneration low buffer assaults, commanders/crusaders,Titan heavies, etc)
So the question I pose to the community is: keep tiers and force CCP to balance against ridiculous numbers of suits, or get rid of tiers and get the rest of the base content, plus variants/specialisations?
Hell, tiers could come back once the core content is in. Just look at vehicles, this is exactly what they're doing right now. Removing variants which are essentially tiers, because the LogiDS is better than the basic dropship in every way. But they will be reintroduced.
> "I will show you fear in a handful of dust."
T.S. Eliot, The Wasteland
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7133
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Posted - 2013.11.20 22:24:00 -
[94] - Quote
Still want to see happen
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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medomai grey
WarRavens
League of Infamy
357
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Posted - 2013.11.20 22:35:00 -
[95] - Quote
I do too.
I wonder if implementing this would allow for different models for tech II suits? I've seen some pretty awesome concept art of suits that never made it into the game.
Blatant Dust_514 recruiting in the silliest of places. :P
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X7 lion
Swamp Marines
Kleenex Inc.
57
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Posted - 2013.11.21 01:55:00 -
[96] - Quote
Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. |
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4677
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Posted - 2013.11.21 02:02:00 -
[97] - Quote
X7 lion wrote:Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair.
You STFU.
This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community.
If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
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Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3842
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Posted - 2013.11.21 02:05:00 -
[98] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:X7 lion wrote:Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now.
I'd be next in line.
Take your own advice, *******.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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zibathy numbertwo
Nox Aeterna Security
267
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Posted - 2013.11.21 02:48:00 -
[99] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:X7 lion wrote:Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now.
No, YOU shut the **** up. Stop trying to destroy the only FPS I enjoy. If I could I would send the OP straight to hell in a handbasket. This is by far the worst suggestion I have ever seen. It fucks over game design AND content - it REMOVES it. The OP sounds like your typical commie/socialist crying out for "fairness" and less choice. Suck my FREE, LIBERTY LOVING, GALLENTEAN ****.
Long Live Freedom; Long Live the Federation.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7154
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Posted - 2013.11.21 03:16:00 -
[100] - Quote
zibathy numbertwo wrote:Cat Merc wrote:X7 lion wrote:Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. No, YOU shut the **** up. Stop trying to destroy the only FPS I enjoy. If I could I would send the OP straight to hell in a handbasket. This is by far the worst suggestion I have ever seen. It fucks over game design AND content - it REMOVES it. The OP sounds like your typical commie/socialist crying out for "fairness" and less choice. Suck my FREE, LIBERTY LOVING, GALLENTEAN ****.
Yup, only a communist would want a video GAME to be fair, LOL. Seriously, I'm wondering if you're a troll or something, or if you're just stupid. The whole point of games is that they are supposed to be mostly fair contests; games are suppose to be fun, and its not fun if the odds are so stacked in favor of one player such that the other has little to no chance of victory. I can't believe I actually have to explain why fairness in a game is good. Your design argument is BS, you clearly don't have the slightest idea of the basics of games in general; giant gaps between players like this is just bad design.
Your idea of content is having a bunch of suits that do the exact same thing, but some are just clearly inferior with no benefit? and you actually think its a good idea? Tiers are not content, they're the exact same things that get progressively better. Your content argument is BS.
You seriously came here and spouted this "liberty" and "freedom" BS in a topic about video game balance? How useful is that "liberty" and "freedom" when the game's populations shrivels up and dies because new players quit as soon as they get out of Instant Battle Academy getting getting stomped on by vets in prototype suits. We already have more experience, knowledge, SP, and better weapons then them anyway even without the suit disparity.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3844
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Posted - 2013.11.21 03:26:00 -
[101] - Quote
zibathy numbertwo wrote:Cat Merc wrote:X7 lion wrote:Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. No, YOU shut the **** up. Stop trying to destroy the only FPS I enjoy. If I could I would send the OP straight to hell in a handbasket. This is by far the worst suggestion I have ever seen. It fucks over game design AND content - it REMOVES it. The OP sounds like your typical commie/socialist crying out for "fairness" and less choice. Suck my FREE, LIBERTY LOVING, GALLENTEAN ****.
What it does is remove power-creep, something that actually detracts from the fun of the game.
Consider how CCP Reykjavik has already done this same thing with EVE, and have been greeted with nothing but praise for doing so. Do you think that's because we're all morons or something?
I mean, this is clearly a troll post, so I'm just feeding the trolls like a noob, but whatever.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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X7 lion
Swamp Marines
Kleenex Inc.
58
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Posted - 2013.11.21 06:03:00 -
[102] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:X7 lion wrote:Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now.
go screw your self, eon is what is wrong with this game, putting a ******* choak hold on pc. |
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4682
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Posted - 2013.11.21 06:44:00 -
[103] - Quote
X7 lion wrote:Cat Merc wrote:X7 lion wrote:Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. go screw your self, eon is what is wrong with this game, putting a ******* choak hold on pc.
Sadly that is your best response?
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
5299
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Posted - 2013.11.21 07:04:00 -
[104] - Quote
X7 lion wrote:Cat Merc wrote:X7 lion wrote:Go back the the public discussion leave this thread for people who are better at not trying to break the game beyond repair. You STFU. This man has contributed more than you will ever will to the community. If I could I would put my boot up your ass right about now. go screw your self, eon is what is wrong with this game, putting a ******* choak hold on pc.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
Perhaps you should look at the PC map?
Level 5 Forum Warrior
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
574
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Posted - 2013.11.21 07:18:00 -
[105] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Nope
Vehicles would be ****** yet again
We dont even have adv let alone proto mods or hulls yet your all screaming for tiercide because once again infantry have basically everything so your proto suits would be fine but we as vehicle would prob end up with madrugars and gunlogis as our proto vehicles which already get ****** by proto AV
Let alone the removal of basic/adv stuff so less to use
The only way i would ever support tiercide is when everything is out and released and has been balanced and if that takes 2yrs then so be it but doing it right now would screw over vehicle users and that is a fact
Has CCP confirmed that there will be advanced and proto tanks? No. Only specialized vehicles.
KDR > ALL
ME > KDR
ME > ALL
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
1726
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Posted - 2013.11.21 12:31:00 -
[106] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Nope
Vehicles would be ****** yet again
We dont even have adv let alone proto mods or hulls yet your all screaming for tiercide because once again infantry have basically everything so your proto suits would be fine but we as vehicle would prob end up with madrugars and gunlogis as our proto vehicles which already get ****** by proto AV
Let alone the removal of basic/adv stuff so less to use
The only way i would ever support tiercide is when everything is out and released and has been balanced and if that takes 2yrs then so be it but doing it right now would screw over vehicle users and that is a fact Has CCP confirmed that there will be advanced and proto tanks? No. Only specialized vehicles.
Yet we have proto mods and turrets in 1.7 which we cannot fit all proto onto the basic tanks which are classed by meta level where 1-3 is basic, 4-6 is advanced, 7-9 as proto and anything higher is generally faction and officer which vehicles do not have access to
So yes we need adv/proto vehicles so we can fit on our adv/proto mods espc for PC where currently its proto suit with proto AV weapon with proto mods vs a proto turret and basic mods and hull |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3845
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Posted - 2013.11.21 12:59:00 -
[107] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Spectral Clone wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Nope
Vehicles would be ****** yet again
We dont even have adv let alone proto mods or hulls yet your all screaming for tiercide because once again infantry have basically everything so your proto suits would be fine but we as vehicle would prob end up with madrugars and gunlogis as our proto vehicles which already get ****** by proto AV
Let alone the removal of basic/adv stuff so less to use
The only way i would ever support tiercide is when everything is out and released and has been balanced and if that takes 2yrs then so be it but doing it right now would screw over vehicle users and that is a fact Has CCP confirmed that there will be advanced and proto tanks? No. Only specialized vehicles. Yet we have proto mods and turrets in 1.7 which we cannot fit all proto onto the basic tanks which are classed by meta level where 1-3 is basic, 4-6 is advanced, 7-9 as proto and anything higher is generally faction and officer which vehicles do not have access to So yes we need adv/proto vehicles so we can fit on our adv/proto mods espc for PC where currently its proto suit with proto AV weapon with proto mods vs a proto turret and basic mods and hull
The higher meta levels are there for modules and not the assets that use them for a reason. Having different meta levels and thus different fitting requirements is an essential part of the fitting system, as it allows a player to further customize their suit or vehicle.
The issue is that these meta levels were applied to suits, which just results in power creep. The LAST thing this game needs is yet more power creep in the form of tiers for vehicles. As many of us have been saying for months, the suit tiers need to go.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
2094
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Posted - 2013.11.21 13:08:00 -
[108] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I hope it happens when all suits get added.
In all honesty, tiercide needs to come before me suits are added. I was thinking about the possibility of splitting each frame (light, medium, heavy) into each of the specialisations we have now.
So in addition to the Sentinel and Commando for heavies, there will be a Scout and Logistics and Assault heavy.
In addition to logistics and assault, there will be commando, scout and sentinel medium frame variants.
In addition to light frame scouts , there will be sentinel scouts, commando scouts (like the black eagle suits), assault and logistics scouts.
Essentially we have all specialisations across frames which vary in terms of eHP, passive bonuses and skills. Then differentiated racially as well.
This diversity, though, especially once pilot suits come in, will be mind blowing. But the balancing task will be overwhelming with tiers. The game will progress so much faster if we drop tiers now and focus on specialisations.
Previously I did say tiers could come back once the base content is all introduces and balanced, but if we implement a system like what I suggest above we wouldn't even want tiers.
"When nothing is going your way, go out of your way to do nothing."
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7322
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Posted - 2013.12.07 05:20:00 -
[109] - Quote
I want
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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The-Errorist
Closed For Business
For All Mankind
400
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:57:00 -
[110] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I want
But, does does CCP want this? |
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Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
815
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:58:00 -
[111] - Quote
Rather than removing tiers, why not add more aspects to the different tiers instead of just Improvement?
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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The-Errorist
Closed For Business
For All Mankind
401
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:12:00 -
[112] - Quote
You mean having sidegrades instead of upgrades, yes, that's what KAGEHOSHI is already suggesting in this thread. |
Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
817
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:23:00 -
[113] - Quote
The-Errorist wrote:You mean having sidegrades instead of upgrades, yes, that's what KAGEHOSHI is already suggesting in this thread.
Actually, what I'm suggesting is more like "diagonal-grades".
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
342
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Posted - 2013.12.20 08:39:00 -
[114] - Quote
I like OPs idea. Makes specializing so much better.
Suppose we also do it like Eve does, and have a general Logistics suit skill? Meaning that if you unlock the logistics suit skill, and take minmatar suits to 5, you can use minmatar logi suits. and if you then take caldari suits to 5, you can use caldari logi as well. |
Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
831
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Posted - 2013.12.20 08:40:00 -
[115] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:I like OPs idea. Makes specializing so much better.
Suppose we also do it like Eve does, and have a general Logistics suit skill? Meaning that if you unlock the logistics suit skill, and take minmatar suits to 5, you can use minmatar logi suits. and if you then take caldari suits to 5, you can use caldari logi as well.
Me gusta! EVE does many things right. The skill system is one of them.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7719
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Posted - 2014.01.02 15:07:00 -
[116] - Quote
Revolutionary bump!
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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The-Errorist
444
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Posted - 2014.01.03 01:06:00 -
[117] - Quote
Standard bump |
Adelia Lafayette
DUST University
Ivy League
516
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Posted - 2014.01.03 01:42:00 -
[118] - Quote
yes please. I've been agreeing to tiercide for a while now. I want more variety not tiers.
Assault dropship gets blown up....
(Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ "Kitten this I'm out"...
..."I'm back"
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
653
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Posted - 2014.01.03 02:07:00 -
[119] - Quote
Yes now that we have CoD and BF like TTK, and Aim Assist with Bullet homming and magnetic tracking of moving targets Proof... Why have any other scaling or diversity in the game at all? Why is there EVEN a DUST in the first place?
You should be at end game in 1-2 weeks max and then put dust on a shelf to only touch a few times a year...   
What sad days these are. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7741
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Posted - 2014.01.03 02:31:00 -
[120] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Yes now that we have CoD and BF like TTK, and Aim Assist with Bullet homming and magnetic tracking of moving targets Proof... Why have any other scaling or diversity in the game at all? Why is there EVEN a DUST in the first place? You should be at end game in 1-2 weeks max and then put dust on a shelf to only touch a few times a year... What sad days these are.
Aim assist and TTK is irrelevant to this topic; leave that crap outside.
With everyone having suits equivalent to ADV or PRO, TTK would actually increase because of how much HP can be stacked. You should be supporting this if you want higher TTK.
So you're against this because it makes Dust less special in your opinion? even though its an unbalanced system that hurts the game's longevity? That's just dumb.
Tiers are a poor way of adding diversity, especially since higher tier suits fill the same roles as their lower tier counterparts, but are just better with no downsides. True diversity comes from the specializations, not the tiers.
You're just a jive turkey who doesn't want to lose his ability to protostomp newbs fresh out of the academy with a squad of corpmates.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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