DUST Search - [Request] Tiercide & specifics on how to implement it

Quote:

Tiercide: the removal of tiers. There should only be 2 dropsuit tiers, MLT for testing things out without needing skills, and STD for when you have the skills to use the dropsuit.

There are many threads on the subject, this and this, but I thought I should make one specifically about how it should be handled. gbghg's thread covered why it needs to happen, and this thread is mostly about how to implement it, but basically here is why it needs to happen in case you don't want to read a bunch of paragraphs:

Tiers create imbalance in PVP, and there are no options besides PVP for new players to engage in until they can compete. This means players with less SP have an unreasonably massive disadvantage, and no other option besides getting stomped by vets for months to catch up. Some people might say something stupid like "New Eden isn't fair, HTFU", but this hurts player retention, and ultimately hurts the game's longevity; even EVE got rid of the tiers on the ships, and chose to go with just specializations.

Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked.

Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players, so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun.


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Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1532	Posted - 2013.08.19 16:23:00 - [1] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Read the whole thing before posting something Did that, and just so we're clear I do understand that you are talking about dropsuits not about everything. Now on to the meat of the subject. Quote: Tiercide: the removal of tiers. There should only be 2 dropsuit tiers, MLT for testing things out without needing skills, and STD for when you have the skills to use the dropsuit. There are many threads on the subject, this and this, but I thought I should make one specifically about how it should be handled. gbghg's thread covered why it needs to happen, and this thread is mostly about how to implement it, but basically here is why it needs to happen in case you don't want to read a bunch of paragraphs: Tiers create imbalance in PVP, and there are no options besides PVP for new players to engage in until they can compete. This means players with less SP have an unreasonably massive disadvantage, and no other option besides getting stomped by vets for months to catch up. Some people might say something stupid like "New Eden isn't fair, HTFU", but this hurts player retention, and ultimately hurts the game's longevity; even EVE got rid of the tiers on the ships, and chose to go with just specializations. Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked. Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players, so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun. Tiercide as a general concept is cool to me, unfortunately most iterations of it are far less desirable than the general concept. I have not checked out the two linked threads yet, that's my next stop, but at this point I am not persuaded that this change is required or beneficial. For example some of the listed motives are, simply put, directly in conflict with my own testing. I have a zero SP character who runs starter fits, I test on this character regularly (usually at least one day a week) and have not encountered "an unreasonably massive disadvantage". Lets be clear here, I am a support logi, in part because my gun game is not the strongest out there, so I'm playing on a character with zero sp, in starter fits, in a role I'm mediocre at and tending to earn 500-1500 WP per game even in matches with organized corp squads running full proto. Now I am not saying that gear and SP have no impact, but it is certainly not an impact that I feel can accurately be described as "massive". Furthermore the most painful burden placed on my zero SP character when contrasted with several of my other characters? It's not HP, or even eHP, it is *mobility. That's right the speed with which I can sprint, run, drive, etc. has a drastically larger and more meaningful impact on game play than relative HP does. I understand why the free starter LAV was removed but it was also one of the harshest and most cutting nerfs to new players ability to compete that has happened since live launch. Stripping new players of that mobility creates a slower and more frustrating form of game play and even if they are buying basic LAVs to compensate those death buggies still explode if you sneeze on them wrong thus costing the new player time and ISK neither of which they can as readily afford. Advanced players who have more SP can sprint longer, recover faster, and sprint faster than the standard players, they can also field better vehicles, possess better uplinks, and have enhanced hacking rates. There superior speed gives them superior adaptability and that has a much more significant effect on new players than does the relative HP of dropsuits. Re: Your #2, I've had proto since the start of the live game due to open beta play and I do not run it most of the time, more than 80% of my pub matches (which are the majority of my game play) use fits that are a mix of Militia and Standard suits and mods. Even if money were no object and I could run proto all match every match I still wouldn't because using lower meta gear is better training to make my player skills more effective for those important moments where I do run proto. Simply put I'm an object lesson in how this point doesn't hold true, just because some players might "go proto or go home" doesn't mean everyone does it, I certainly don't. Re: #3, see the first part of my post, the problem isn't HP, or eHP it is speed. Flattening TTK (time to kill) game wide would reduce diversity and would not* address the core shortfall confronting low SP characters/new players. Now I'm going to go give those links a look. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1536	Posted - 2013.08.19 18:20:00 - [2] - Quote I'm not sure how much time I've already spent reading your posts and ideas Iron Wolf Saber but thanks to that link (how did I not see this thread until now?) it's about to be a lot more. ~ Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1536	Posted - 2013.08.19 18:58:00 - [3] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Sigh, old post https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75214 A very quick and succinct response to the linked thread. Step 1 I was honestly somewhat hesitant about this, but when considered as part of the other steps listed I can confidently stand behind it. Step 2 Love it, the effects are good on both mechanical and abstract levels, honestly this is something I've been craving in Dust. I'll have to chew on the specific values to form an impression there, but the 'Overall Theme' aspect is great. Step 3 Phase 1 Yes, this would be a great addition to the quality of gameplay in Dust. Phase 2 Light looks good Medium, General frames look good. Logi frame, removal of the Light weapon is to me 180 degrees the wrong direction to take unless we're talking about making Dust Logi fill the same role as EVE Logi where they can actually out rep several streams of incoming damage at once. The major drawback of the sidearm regardless of type is shorter range and the most effective method for a Logi to be supporting a squad in most situation is to run something with extended range so that the Logi can put fire down to suppress or soften hostile targets while the squad moves in/sets up. Tac Rifles, Laser Rifles and Mass Drivers are all quite common for Logi running squad support and there is nothing comparable within the sidearm offerings even thought we have pseudo parallels such as the Flaylock and Scrambler Pistol. Assault frame, looks solid, may require some other slight buff to 'gank' as a method of maintaining its role status in the face of Logi keeping their light weapon slot (which really needs to happen). Large, General Agreed. Sentinel, sounds good and I think most of the Heavies I squad with would be quite pleased. Commando, looks good, maintains its flavor without becoming out of line. Permutations based on the 'Alternatives' section could provide enhanced diversity while still increasing specialization, and generally speaking more useful diversity is better than less so with that in the mix my objections above are at least mitigated, and possibly resolved depending on the specific method and time frame of the changes (i.e. the current Logi support role needs to remain viable with use of weapons such as the MD, LR, TAR etc for close squad work not be mechanically excised from the game until some unnamed future time). Step 4 Looks solid, no objections, may even help aid new players in acclimating to the game. I also like the concept of link slots. All in all I'd give the thread a +1 if it weren't time locked due to age. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1538	Posted - 2013.08.19 20:57:00 - [4] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: @Cross Overall the idea is old and quite dated now and in retrospect some aspects of the idea where bad such as the specifics in weapons and slot layouts. As for the things following the link if i could update it if it weren't locked that what it would boil down too. I may make a version 2.0 to include vehicles. I'm looking forward to version 2.0 if that gets rolled out. Sweeping changes are a tough nut to crack when it comes to balance but focusing on providing flexible roles and specializations is a great step in the right direction over trying to either prefab boxes into which people must put themselves for their role or flattening the overall game diversity to promote "fairness" I like the matrix of aspects you've put together in the prior post, old or not, and am much more optimistic about the concept of tiericide within Dust sooner rather than later based on the concepts you've raised. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1648	Posted - 2013.08.27 07:49:00 - [5] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: I do very well on my militia character too. Thing is, can the rest of the population say the same? Can all the new players, who are struggling to understand the skill system, boast of the extensive knowledge about game mechanics/maps that we have? My KDR (which is honestly a bad stat, but I'll leave that rant alone) on my militia character is better than on my main actually. Partly because of the bug which failed to record skirmish stats for so long, and partly because my main is a Logi and I run support which means dining a fair bit without getting kills. Quote: My gun game is **. I can barely keep my KDR above 1 on this guy. My KDR is below 1 on my militia character. But still I can get successful games on it. But our anecdotal evidence is not strong enough to simply prove tiercide is heading the wrong direction. There pretty nearly isn't any other kind when it comes to this, which is why such changes raise flags for me. So much of what is being talked about is conjecture, theory, or subjective. None of which should be a foundation for balance/rebalance. Any new change to the mechanics of the game should bear the burden of proof, it should need to show why it is a clearly superior change and if it fails then (at least that aversion) should not move forward. Quote: Your hypothesis is interesting. In relation to this hypothesis of "mobility > eHP", I believe tiercide delivers a system which doesn't necessarily flatten TTK. The HP gap closes, but that means there will be more focus on roles. A scout suit variant which delivers extra shield regen will be used for what I like to call 'butterfly combat', flitting around and being a nuisance to hit without going down. A scout with a movement speed bonus can catch people with charged nova knives. 2 examples of hundreds that are possible with variants, and both do not point towards a flattening of kill time. In fact, both examples highlight the importance of mobility. Unless the implementation of variants is botched, diversity will be increased. HP, or even eHP isn't the proper place to focus for an active look at tiericide. Tiericide is about role quality not about stat normalization. While I fully agree that that NPE is vital the future of the game, and have posted more than once seeking improvements to that end, removing the edge that progression grants isn't going to improve the game. Even in a game where there are no character skills and no gear upgrades the vets still have a massive advantage because they know the maps, know the engine, know the UI, etc. and that's all without touching on the concept of gun game directly. Now all of that being said, Iron Wolf Saber presents a very viable first push towards a tiericide effort, and I give my reactions to it within post #22 of this thread. I am in no way opposed to tiericde, in fact I support it, but the method must be carefully considered and things which lean towards or border on stat flattening are generally not a good way to go, at least not as a vanguard effort/proposed solution in their own right. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: It's late here and I don't know what 'tone' my above post has put across, so in case it didn't come through I wanted to say this directly; Thank you** for the constructive and clear post, I appreciate the quality of your response and the tone of its presentation.