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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1207
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Posted - 2013.08.19 22:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
zibathy numbertwo wrote:-Post snipped because it was too long. Click here to access.-
1. And yet scientific research successfully applied to animals are then used to form drugs for humans.
2. Ranking up still occurs. You simply become more versatile IN ONE ROLE on the battlefield, than going from adv -> pro which suddenly makes you better at EVERYTHING. And suits will look different. Many more small variants to paint jobs and styles than we have now, which will appease your aesthetic side.
3. OP states that STD gear after tiercide will be equivalent to PRO basic frames now. So you will have plenty of slots to personalise. Even if you have 4 slots, you don't necessarily have to use them. Instead, more CPU/PG can go into your choice of grenade, or equipment. That feels like personalisation increases MORE to me.
4. No, people won't eventually move up to PRO. They will already be there from the beginning. How will it be a 'sea of lava or 'deepest pit of hell'? It will be as if everyone is using the same type of gear, on the surface. Underneath, you don't know how your neighbour has fitted his suit because there's so much potential for VERSATILITY and PERSONALISATION.
5. Monetization is definitely an issue that must be addressed. No one said tiercide was perfect, but I don't see you offering an alternative.
6. You say EVE logic can't apply to DUST, and go and say "this game isn't meant to be fair" when the motto in EVE/New Eden is "HTFU" followed by "get betta scrub".
Even with tiercide, it won't be fair. How will you know the exact fit of every single person on the battlefield? Each person has an advantage if they play to their role. If you try outrun a scout with a suit that has upgraded sprint speed with your scout suit that has upgraded shield regen, for example, it won't be fair. But you can survive longer than the scout in combat. We're creating strengths and weaknesses instead of tier progression where all strengths get stronger and there are less weaknesses.
7. And in PC matches? All we see are FOTM fits or full prototype. Competitively, everything under ADV and even including ADV gear is obsolete.
8. Tiercide ALLOWS for hundreds of variants. The current system will explode if we try implement all those as it would be incredibly difficult to balance every variant over std-adv-pro tiers.
9. "the only health difference is between mlt-std". Oh, so not mlt-adv? Not mlt-pro? Not std-pro?
10. We aren't giving up artificial skill, we're capitalising on it. Passive bonuses become the progression that tiers are now.
You may say you will never play again. You may say droves of players will leave if this game turns into CoD. But you have no evidence.
We have no evidence tiercide will work. We admit it's not a perfect system. But it's hella a lot better than the current system.
Now, if you wish to argue the current system is perfect, go do it in General Discussion and watch the rest of the community laugh at you.
Or, propose an alternative yourself which you think is better than tiercide. I wish you the best of luck. If your idea is good I will support it. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1207
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 22:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote: Tiercide as a general concept is cool to me, unfortunately most iterations of it are far less desirable than the general concept. I have not checked out the two linked threads yet, that's my next stop, but at this point I am not persuaded that this change is required or beneficial. For example some of the listed motives are, simply put, directly in conflict with my own testing. I have a zero SP character who runs starter fits, I test on this character regularly (usually at least one day a week) and have not encountered "an unreasonably massive disadvantage". Lets be clear here, I am a support logi, in part because my gun game is not the strongest out there, so I'm playing on a character with zero sp, in starter fits, in a role I'm mediocre at and tending to earn 500-1500 WP per game even in matches with organized corp squads running full proto.
Now I am not saying that gear and SP have no impact, but it is certainly not an impact that I feel can accurately be described as "massive". Furthermore the most painful burden placed on my zero SP character when contrasted with several of my other characters? It's not HP, or even eHP, it is mobility. That's right the speed with which I can sprint, run, drive, etc. has a drastically larger and more meaningful impact on game play than relative HP does. I understand why the free starter LAV was removed but it was also one of the harshest and most cutting nerfs to new players ability to compete that has happened since live launch. Stripping new players of that mobility creates a slower and more frustrating form of game play and even if they are buying basic LAVs to compensate those death buggies still explode if you sneeze on them wrong thus costing the new player time and ISK neither of which they can as readily afford. Advanced players who have more SP can sprint longer, recover faster, and sprint faster than the standard players, they can also field better vehicles, possess better uplinks, and have enhanced hacking rates. There superior speed gives them superior adaptability and that has a much more significant effect on new players than does the relative HP of dropsuits.
Re: Your #2, I've had proto since the start of the live game due to open beta play and I do not run it most of the time, more than 80% of my pub matches (which are the majority of my game play) use fits that are a mix of Militia and Standard suits and mods. Even if money were no object and I could run proto all match every match I still wouldn't because using lower meta gear is better training to make my player skills more effective for those important moments where I do run proto. Simply put I'm an object lesson in how this point doesn't hold true, just because some players might "go proto or go home" doesn't mean everyone does it, I certainly don't.
Re: #3, see the first part of my post, the problem isn't HP, or eHP it is speed. Flattening TTK (time to kill) game wide would reduce diversity and would not address the core shortfall confronting low SP characters/new players.
Now I'm going to go give those links a look.
Cheers, Cross
I do very well on my militia character too. Thing is, can the rest of the population say the same? Can all the new players, who are struggling to understand the skill system, boast of the extensive knowledge about game mechanics/maps that we have?
My gun game is ****. I can barely keep my KDR above 1 on this guy. My KDR is below 1 on my militia character. But still I can get successful games on it. But our anecdotal evidence is not strong enough to simply prove tiercide is heading the wrong direction.
Your hypothesis is interesting. In relation to this hypothesis of "mobility > eHP", I believe tiercide delivers a system which doesn't necessarily flatten TTK. The HP gap closes, but that means there will be more focus on roles. A scout suit variant which delivers extra shield regen will be used for what I like to call 'butterfly combat', flitting around and being a nuisance to hit without going down. A scout with a movement speed bonus can catch people with charged nova knives. 2 examples of hundreds that are possible with variants, and both do not point towards a flattening of kill time.
In fact, both examples highlight the importance of mobility. Unless the implementation of variants is botched, diversity will be increased.
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
1215
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Posted - 2013.08.21 09:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
excillon wrote:I for one would like to see us simply be able to upgrade our existing suits, adding slots, etc. I've been using my Raven so long, I can't imagine not using it.
I think it would be great for the marketplace if you could sell those suits. For instance, you buy a BPO Dragonfly assault. You level it up, add things to it, and sell it. The catch should be that the buyer must be a certain level to use it. Maybe not as high a level as you are to create it, but have the buyers level affect what he can do with it. Same with weapons. Even add a customization app, for colors, renaming, etc.
As for tiercide, I'm kind of in between. I see both sides, and I wish there was some happy medium there. But there's not, at least not that I can see.
Currently the community are focused around the debate between having a respec system and not. I believe tiercide is the happy medium between those two extremes.
I really like that idea of having the ability to sell your own pre-made fits, though. Have a little skill book icon next to a fit that gets a green tick if you have all the prerequisites. This would be even more effective WITH tiercide, since more variants mean many more unique applications of fits. Fit creators could even add descriptions, and recommended additional skills / other possible modifications. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1309
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Posted - 2013.09.16 22:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
Although the tiercide to only dropsuits seems to be the preferred option, there is a flaw that I see there. That is, why would anyone use basic modules if their dropsuit has the capacity to fit complex? So essentially as people skill into complex modules (which require much less SP than what prototype dropsuits do currently), basic and advanced modules will be left on the shelves to collect dust. They're being tiercided without even removing them from the game and simply become redundant. Why not implement tiercide for modules also? Have only complex shield extenders, but a variant can be the shield energizers we have now. Then we can also have a variant which gives less shield HP but a resistance to a certain damage type; we can make a variant for each damage type. That's already half a dozen other variants or so to the current shield extender.
Now, make the skill Shield Extension unlock the complex shield extenders at level 1, shield energizers at level 3, and all those damage resistance variants at level 5. That's what I envision tiercide to be: as you unlock you get MORE SPECIALISED variants instead of a higher tier which is simply better overall. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1341
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Posted - 2013.09.25 09:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
I posted this somewhere else, but I'd like to point out here too that the Active Scanner Operation skill and what it unlocks highlights exactly what I imagine tiercide to make all items become.
Here is what I'll be referring to below: http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Active_Scanner
Now, as you can see, at level I, we unlock scanners that aren't so different from the scanners we unlock later at level III and level V. The only thing that is getting progressively better is the scan precision, something which is in itself a specialisation, because very rarely will there be people running around with profiles under 15dB. That is, in 95% of games, a basic Active Scanner can do exactly what the Duvolle Focused Active Scanner does, with 3 seconds less of a scan duration. Are those 3 seconds worth all those skill points? For someone who wishes to specialise in EWAR, yes. To all others, NO. That is the essence of tiercide; you'll only keep upgrading a skill if you want specialisation, not better equipment in general. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1507
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Posted - 2013.10.20 01:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:I think the OP is confused with what tiericide in EVE means. In EVE there were multiple ships in each racial class that were "tiered." You could fly the first Battleship of your race at racial battleship 1, the next at a higher level and the last at level 5 (maybe it was 4). Anyways, these were all very different ships that filled different roles, and having them tiered didn't make sense. Tiericide was making all T1 battleships of the same race have roughly equal stats. You absolutely do have better versions of the same ship in EVE and there are no plans for that to go away. For example, you have the standard Omen cruiser, a "navy" version of it which is significantly better, and the T2 Heavy Assault Cruiser version called the Zealot which will kick the crap out of a T1 Omen, it's also like 100x more expensive. You also have T3 cruisers, and the Amarr leigion can be configured similarly to an Omen. It will also kick the **** out of it.
Tiericide in DUST would be more like making sure the assault and logistics versions of a suit were roughly competitive with each other stats-wise, or Sentinals and Commandos having similar overall power (even though they have different roles, one is not meant to be the better version of the other). There is no intention to make T2 or T3 ships on par with T1 ships in EVE.
I can wear proto Amarr assault, but I run STD suits with better mods and advanced weapons 7 times out of 10. The risk vs. ISK is the most compelling feature of DUST. It's fun and interesting to make choices like "should I go advanced to get revenge on that proto pubstomper? Is it worth the risk to me of loosing it?" No other FPS games have you make decisions like that, it's part of what makes DUST the most interesting FPS ever made (not saying it doesn't have plenty of problems).
Confused as most of us are about EVE, I think that for all intents and purposes, we aren't looking for a solution similar to EVE. We're looking for something to resolve issues in DUST. The only thing that's similar is the name we have taken: tiercide.
Risk vs. ISK is not going away. In fact, many are supporting a more partial tiercide, which won't affect all items.
I on the other hand support a tiercide where variants are introduced to replace tiers. Look at the active scanners, for example. There are no massive overall bonuses as you unlock the new scanners. Instead, the top tier scanners have specialised purposes that only a few people will pay the extra money to use because it fits into that unique playstyle.
Currently, dropsuits and most weapons don't support this. Higher tier unlocks don't have weaknesses; they become better overall and suddenly someone's performance becomes better overall because of this. I want to see, as you upgrade AR Operation, more variants. How about an AR which doesn't make you show up on the minimap? How about an AR which shoots silently but does make you show on the minimap? What about a variant with no clip but half the maximum ammo capacity?
Why can't we have those instead of a GEK?
And to reiterate, risk vs. ISK stays. Variants of the basic AR will be much more expensive (low demand as they're specialised), but overall will remain on par with the basic AR. Notice how I highlight overall. An AR which doesn't make you appear on the minimap will be extremely effective if used by a scout who can't be scanned, but if that scout is noticed the AR loses it's advantage. Strengths and weaknesses.
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1712
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Posted - 2013.11.01 22:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Expanding on specialisation:
This is a key component of tiercide. Tiers are replaced by variants. Progression is horizontal, not vertical. What do I mean by that?
People get items which are new, yes, but not any better. Specialisations have strengths over the basic frame, but also a weakness. Obviously, some people will want to use this despite the weaknesses based on their play style.
Currently, we don't have variants in dropsuits besides racial and frame. If we removed tiers (how Kagehoshi has explained), this frees up the ability for developers to create new variants and easily introduce that new content we all crave because simply put,
It's easier to balance for one tier than three.
That's right, only one tier needs to be balanced around for tiers. The mlt tier after tiercide should only consist of the base content and no variants, which you unlock as you specialise.
Now, if CCP were to introduce the Caldari Heavy/Sentinel/Commando, they need to balance against the 9 other dropsuits of the current Amarr heavies. Now, if they want to introduce Minmatar and Gallente equivalents, that's another 18 dropsuits, having to be balanced against the other 18.
NOT ONLY THAT. These suits then need to be balanced against every other dropsuit in the game, consisting of 48 light/medium frames. And that's not including all the racial light variants. If we include Amarr and Caldari scouts, that's another 12 dropsuits.
So if CCP wants to introduce a new dropsuit, they need to keep it balanced against a grand total of 87 dropsuits, assuming they're taking into account all racial variants.
Enter tiercide.
Cutting down tiers from 3 to 1 since we aren't including the MLT tier, there only needs to be consideration of 29 dropsuits when introducing a new one. A vast improvement, making it easier to get those racial variants out, and introduce specialisations. (Pilot suits, black ops scouts, combat logistics, high regeneration low buffer assaults, commanders/crusaders,Titan heavies, etc)
So the question I pose to the community is: keep tiers and force CCP to balance against ridiculous numbers of suits, or get rid of tiers and get the rest of the base content, plus variants/specialisations?
Hell, tiers could come back once the core content is in. Just look at vehicles, this is exactly what they're doing right now. Removing variants which are essentially tiers, because the LogiDS is better than the basic dropship in every way. But they will be reintroduced.
> "I will show you fear in a handful of dust."
T.S. Eliot, The Wasteland
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
2094
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Posted - 2013.11.21 13:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I hope it happens when all suits get added.
In all honesty, tiercide needs to come before me suits are added. I was thinking about the possibility of splitting each frame (light, medium, heavy) into each of the specialisations we have now.
So in addition to the Sentinel and Commando for heavies, there will be a Scout and Logistics and Assault heavy.
In addition to logistics and assault, there will be commando, scout and sentinel medium frame variants.
In addition to light frame scouts , there will be sentinel scouts, commando scouts (like the black eagle suits), assault and logistics scouts.
Essentially we have all specialisations across frames which vary in terms of eHP, passive bonuses and skills. Then differentiated racially as well.
This diversity, though, especially once pilot suits come in, will be mind blowing. But the balancing task will be overwhelming with tiers. The game will progress so much faster if we drop tiers now and focus on specialisations.
Previously I did say tiers could come back once the base content is all introduces and balanced, but if we implement a system like what I suggest above we wouldn't even want tiers.
"When nothing is going your way, go out of your way to do nothing."
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