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medomai grey
WarRavens League of Infamy
172
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Posted - 2013.09.25 07:05:00 -
[61] - Quote
I'm baffled as to why this idea isn't more popular with the Dust community.
Too busy trying to buff their gear and nerf everyone else's gear? |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
6174
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 09:05:00 -
[62] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:I'm baffled as to why this idea isn't more popular with the Dust community.
Too busy trying to buff their gear and nerf everyone else's gear? People aren't comfortable with big game changes generally unless its a fix, they're used to the status quo. Many the same people who don't like the idea of tiercide would be against adding tiers if Dust was tiercided from the beginning. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1341
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 09:06:00 -
[63] - Quote
I posted this somewhere else, but I'd like to point out here too that the Active Scanner Operation skill and what it unlocks highlights exactly what I imagine tiercide to make all items become.
Here is what I'll be referring to below: http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Active_Scanner
Now, as you can see, at level I, we unlock scanners that aren't so different from the scanners we unlock later at level III and level V. The only thing that is getting progressively better is the scan precision, something which is in itself a specialisation, because very rarely will there be people running around with profiles under 15dB. That is, in 95% of games, a basic Active Scanner can do exactly what the Duvolle Focused Active Scanner does, with 3 seconds less of a scan duration. Are those 3 seconds worth all those skill points? For someone who wishes to specialise in EWAR, yes. To all others, NO. That is the essence of tiercide; you'll only keep upgrading a skill if you want specialisation, not better equipment in general. |
Spycrab Potato
Hold-Your-Fire
495
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 14:09:00 -
[64] - Quote
All hail tiercide! |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6283
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 19:30:00 -
[65] - Quote
More thoughts welcomed |
Dusters Blog
Galactic News Network
410
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 11:51:00 -
[66] - Quote
it should be a surprise to no one how well subtle differences to gear works in gta online. it promotes competition when veteran players cant survive a hail of bullets that would kill a new player. it also lets skill be the determining factor in victory and only a crazy person wouldnt support that. |
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 13:41:00 -
[67] - Quote
The situation, tiericide and Dust.
In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god.
In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6458
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 14:09:00 -
[68] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:The situation, tiericide and Dust.In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god. In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away. Skill bonuses, and new specializations (with bonuses). Most shooters manage to give players an addicting sense of progression without the things being unlocked being obviously superior. EVE does better since tiers have been removed from what I understand. |
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 15:00:00 -
[69] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:The situation, tiericide and Dust.In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god. In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away. Skill bonuses, and new specializations (with bonuses). Most shooters manage to give players an addicting sense of progression without the things being unlocked being obviously superior. EVE does better since tiers have been removed from what I understand. I am a generous person but can verify that you have your facts backwards. Tiers have not been removed and are likely to be increased rather than downgraded.
I have no reference for tier additions in Eve but believe it was during one of their fanfest video presentations that they asked for ideas about which ship class should get a new Tier 3 ship. If you are interested in trying Eve to find out more about new eden please take the opportunity to take advantage of a 21 day free trial of Eve: 21 Day Free Trial (standard is 14 days).
Tier 3 Minmatar Battle Cruiser In addition to T1, T2, T3 ships there are both T1 and T2 modules to fit to ships and there are also Faction modules with higher meta levels than the Tier 2 modules. Often the faction modules have lower skill requirements than the T2 modules. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6459
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 15:27:00 -
[70] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:The situation, tiericide and Dust.In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god. In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away. Skill bonuses, and new specializations (with bonuses). Most shooters manage to give players an addicting sense of progression without the things being unlocked being obviously superior. EVE does better since tiers have been removed from what I understand. I am a generous person but can verify that you have your facts backwards. Tiers have not been removed and are likely to be increased rather than downgraded. I have no reference for tier additions in Eve but believe it was during one of their fanfest video presentations that they asked for ideas about which ship class should get a new Tier 3 ship. If you are interested in trying Eve to find out more about new eden please take the opportunity to take advantage of a 21 day free trial of Eve: 21 Day Free Trial (standard is 14 days). Tier 3 Minmatar Battle CruiserIn addition to T1, T2, T3 ships there are both T1 and T2 modules to fit to ships and there are also Faction modules with higher meta levels than the Tier 2 modules. Often the faction modules have lower skill requirements than the T2 modules. Eve ships uses Tech, not tiers. Techs are basically levels of specializations. Tech 1 is like basic medium frame, Tech 2 is like logi, tech 3 is like a super-customizable suit where even the PG/CPU can be changed, at least that was what I was lead to believe. I think the use of the word tier is a mistake on the wiki, or the page is a relic from the past before EVE had tiercide (origin of the term). Actually it could just be that tiercide is not complete in EVE, I searched "EVE Online tiercide" asking about when it will be complete https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=239100 , this could explain the page you linked with the tiers.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/74234 Here is an EVE devblog on tiercide. |
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Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 15:51:00 -
[71] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:The situation, tiericide and Dust.In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god. In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away. Skill bonuses, and new specializations (with bonuses). Most shooters manage to give players an addicting sense of progression without the things being unlocked being obviously superior. EVE does better since tiers have been removed from what I understand. I am a generous person but can verify that you have your facts backwards. Tiers have not been removed and are likely to be increased rather than downgraded. I have no reference for tier additions in Eve but believe it was during one of their fanfest video presentations that they asked for ideas about which ship class should get a new Tier 3 ship. If you are interested in trying Eve to find out more about new eden please take the opportunity to take advantage of a 21 day free trial of Eve: 21 Day Free Trial (standard is 14 days). Tier 3 Minmatar Battle CruiserIn addition to T1, T2, T3 ships there are both T1 and T2 modules to fit to ships and there are also Faction modules with higher meta levels than the Tier 2 modules. Often the faction modules have lower skill requirements than the T2 modules. Eve ships uses Tech, not tiers. Techs are basically levels of specializations. Tech 1 is like basic medium frame, Tech 2 is like logi, tech 3 is like a super-customizable suit where even the PG/CPU can be changed, at least that was what I was lead to believe. I think the use of the word tier is a mistake on the wiki, or the page is a relic from the past before EVE had tiercide (origin of the term). Actually it could just be that tiercide is not complete in EVE, I searched "EVE Online tiercide" asking about when it will be complete https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=239100 , this could explain the page you linked with the tiers. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/74234 Here is an EVE devblog on tiercide. "The Tornado is a Tier 3 Battlecruiser that sacrifices durability for the ability to fit large (Battleship-grade) weapons." --quoted from my previous eve wiki quote, and still listed in their descriptions.
They effectively just changed skill requirements which happens all the time and is not to be confused with removing tiers.
As it currently stands only Gallente industrials have seen this happen I am sure more will be announced but this is not the same as what dust has, read a few descriptions, proto is not tier 2. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6460
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 16:14:00 -
[72] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:The situation, tiericide and Dust.In the very far past people used to think throwing babies into fires was a good idea too, maybe there will be a return of that past popular way to get more out of your god. In the present we have Dust, suits and vehicles both need tiers. Without a physical representation (even in digital) of all the work a person has done to get X amount of SP there is no feeling of achievement. This thought keeps me playing (for 2 years now) almost every day. Its the motivation for many mercs and should not be thrown away. Skill bonuses, and new specializations (with bonuses). Most shooters manage to give players an addicting sense of progression without the things being unlocked being obviously superior. EVE does better since tiers have been removed from what I understand. I am a generous person but can verify that you have your facts backwards. Tiers have not been removed and are likely to be increased rather than downgraded. I have no reference for tier additions in Eve but believe it was during one of their fanfest video presentations that they asked for ideas about which ship class should get a new Tier 3 ship. If you are interested in trying Eve to find out more about new eden please take the opportunity to take advantage of a 21 day free trial of Eve: 21 Day Free Trial (standard is 14 days). Tier 3 Minmatar Battle CruiserIn addition to T1, T2, T3 ships there are both T1 and T2 modules to fit to ships and there are also Faction modules with higher meta levels than the Tier 2 modules. Often the faction modules have lower skill requirements than the T2 modules. Eve ships uses Tech, not tiers. Techs are basically levels of specializations. Tech 1 is like basic medium frame, Tech 2 is like logi, tech 3 is like a super-customizable suit where even the PG/CPU can be changed, at least that was what I was lead to believe. I think the use of the word tier is a mistake on the wiki, or the page is a relic from the past before EVE had tiercide (origin of the term). Actually it could just be that tiercide is not complete in EVE, I searched "EVE Online tiercide" asking about when it will be complete https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=239100 , this could explain the page you linked with the tiers. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/74234 Here is an EVE devblog on tiercide. "The Tornado is a Tier 3 Battlecruiser that sacrifices durability for the ability to fit large (Battleship-grade) weapons." --quoted from my previous eve wiki quote, and still listed in their descriptions. They effectively just changed skill requirements which happens all the time and is not to be confused with removing tiers. Yes, I read it. I was saying the page is either a relic from before tiercide, or more likely its something they haven't gotten around to tierciding yet since tiercide seems to be incomplete and ongoing process in EVE.
Also, if it sacrifices something to gain some other advantage, then its more like a specialization than a Dust-style tier; tiers are pure upgrades in Dust, they don't sacrifice anything. Much like that ship, for a suit to be better at something, it must always sacrifice something else.
"That is why we want to remove ship tiers altogether, then refocus our balancing philosophy to be based on role. That means finding common themes, or lines that fit ships with the same purpose, then adjusting slot layout, HP and fittings within each class to support this goal." http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/9129
Good idea in EVE, and god idea for Dust. |
TechMechMeds
Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc.
301
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 16:29:00 -
[73] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Arc-08 wrote:Dude havent you heard of matchmaking. It will come out soon. It will put mercs within a range of sp together. Kind of like academy but for people of all sp amounts. That way people that have proto get put with other proto and not mlt That in no way explains why ADV and PRO need to exist in the first place. Good matchmaking or not, tiercided dropsuits would still make them more balanced. If you're expecting matchmaking changes to be some sort of miracle that makes every battle pretty fair, then you have your expectations too high. Nullarbor already made it clear that matchmaking will NOT be based on SP, and even if it somehow was, as game population drops, its inevitable that in some situations newer and older players will have to be in the same battles to fully populate them. EVE got it right, specializations instead of tiers is the answer.
Its basically impossible and would stop players from playing with each other, plus matchmaking is for scrubs. |
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
365
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 16:49:00 -
[74] - Quote
You miss the point, there have to be benefits for investing SP in something or it breaks the current system. The current system says if you have X skill to lv5 you can use the best gear. That gives reason to get X skill to lv5 rather than leaving it on lv1 or 3 where your advanced gear starts. If you remove the option and spec each suit to something different then you need more more more different things to make specialized and currently the suits are specialized with good, better and best as options for fitting. You want to remove good, better and best and make it the same for all lvs.
Try this...see if it fits
|
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6460
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 17:06:00 -
[75] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:You miss the point, there have to be benefits for investing SP in something or it breaks the current system. The current system says if you have X skill to lv5 you can use the best gear. That gives reason to get X skill to lv5 rather than leaving it on lv1 or 3 where your advanced gear starts. If you remove the option and spec each suit to something different then you need more more more different things to make specialized and currently the suits are specialized with good, better and best as options for fitting. You want to remove good, better and best and make it the same for all lvs. Try this...see if it fits I already said on the OP that there should be more specialization roles to unlock to get people to level up skills. Also the skill bonuses for the specialized suits are more than enough incentive (for me at least) to max them our. Ideally even the basic frame skills should have a bonus that will later stack with the specialization bonuses. |
Vell0cet
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
413
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 19:59:00 -
[76] - Quote
I think the OP is confused with what tiericide in EVE means. In EVE there were multiple ships in each racial class that were "tiered." You could fly the first Battleship of your race at racial battleship 1, the next at a higher level and the last at level 5 (maybe it was 4). Anyways, these were all very different ships that filled different roles, and having them tiered didn't make sense. Tiericide was making all T1 battleships of the same race have roughly equal stats. You absolutely do have better versions of the same ship in EVE and there are no plans for that to go away. For example, you have the standard Omen cruiser, a "navy" version of it which is significantly better, and the T2 Heavy Assault Cruiser version called the Zealot which will kick the crap out of a T1 Omen, it's also like 100x more expensive. You also have T3 cruisers, and the Amarr leigion can be configured similarly to an Omen. It will also kick the **** out of it.
Tiericide in DUST would be more like making sure the assault and logistics versions of a suit were roughly competitive with each other stats-wise, or Sentinals and Commandos having similar overall power (even though they have different roles, one is not meant to be the better version of the other). There is no intention to make T2 or T3 ships on par with T1 ships in EVE.
I can wear proto Amarr assault, but I run STD suits with better mods and advanced weapons 7 times out of 10. The risk vs. ISK is the most compelling feature of DUST. It's fun and interesting to make choices like "should I go advanced to get revenge on that proto pubstomper? Is it worth the risk to me of loosing it?" No other FPS games have you make decisions like that, it's part of what makes DUST the most interesting FPS ever made (not saying it doesn't have plenty of problems). |
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
366
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 21:56:00 -
[77] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:I think the OP is confused with what tiericide in EVE means. In EVE there were multiple ships in each racial class that were "tiered." You could fly the first Battleship of your race at racial battleship 1, the next at a higher level and the last at level 5 (maybe it was 4). Anyways, these were all very different ships that filled different roles, and having them tiered didn't make sense. Tiericide was making all T1 battleships of the same race have roughly equal stats. You absolutely do have better versions of the same ship in EVE and there are no plans for that to go away. For example, you have the standard Omen cruiser, a "navy" version of it which is significantly better, and the T2 Heavy Assault Cruiser version called the Zealot which will kick the crap out of a T1 Omen, it's also like 100x more expensive. You also have T3 cruisers, and the Amarr leigion can be configured similarly to an Omen. It will also kick the **** out of it.
Tiericide in DUST would be more like making sure the assault and logistics versions of a suit were roughly competitive with each other stats-wise, or Sentinals and Commandos having similar overall power (even though they have different roles, one is not meant to be the better version of the other). There is no intention to make T2 or T3 ships on par with T1 ships in EVE.
I can wear proto Amarr assault, but I run STD suits with better mods and advanced weapons 7 times out of 10. The risk vs. ISK is the most compelling feature of DUST. It's fun and interesting to make choices like "should I go advanced to get revenge on that proto pubstomper? Is it worth the risk to me of loosing it?" No other FPS games have you make decisions like that, it's part of what makes DUST the most interesting FPS ever made (not saying it doesn't have plenty of problems). You sir have fit it all into a nutshell. I agree that it is somewhat more compelling than fighting for KDR in COD or BF. You are spot on with the ships in Eve as well. If I want to go mission with some friends and bring a T1 Logi Osprey along to keep everyone good on their shields it would suffice for doing LV4 missions, on the other hand if I were to go run with a TVP Incursion fleet I would need to have a T2 Logi Basilisk (200mil just for the ship vs 19mil fitted for the Osprey) fit with a faction fit to be invited into the Incursion Fleet because it needs to be more effective. There is a definite reason for the Tiericide in Eve but at this point in time Mr. Wolf seems like he is just asking to remove the stepping stones along the path to Proto rather than having to go through with the process of skilling and killing. |
Meeko Fent
DUST University Ivy League
1086
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 21:59:00 -
[78] - Quote
Weapons should also be cided.
But, otherwise, DO IT ******* NOW!!!!!!!!!! |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6624
|
Posted - 2013.10.19 20:27:00 -
[79] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Weapons should also be cided.
But, otherwise, DO IT ******* NOW!!!!!!!!!! I still find lower tier weapons and equipment useful for conserving PG/CPU |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1507
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 01:13:00 -
[80] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:I think the OP is confused with what tiericide in EVE means. In EVE there were multiple ships in each racial class that were "tiered." You could fly the first Battleship of your race at racial battleship 1, the next at a higher level and the last at level 5 (maybe it was 4). Anyways, these were all very different ships that filled different roles, and having them tiered didn't make sense. Tiericide was making all T1 battleships of the same race have roughly equal stats. You absolutely do have better versions of the same ship in EVE and there are no plans for that to go away. For example, you have the standard Omen cruiser, a "navy" version of it which is significantly better, and the T2 Heavy Assault Cruiser version called the Zealot which will kick the crap out of a T1 Omen, it's also like 100x more expensive. You also have T3 cruisers, and the Amarr leigion can be configured similarly to an Omen. It will also kick the **** out of it.
Tiericide in DUST would be more like making sure the assault and logistics versions of a suit were roughly competitive with each other stats-wise, or Sentinals and Commandos having similar overall power (even though they have different roles, one is not meant to be the better version of the other). There is no intention to make T2 or T3 ships on par with T1 ships in EVE.
I can wear proto Amarr assault, but I run STD suits with better mods and advanced weapons 7 times out of 10. The risk vs. ISK is the most compelling feature of DUST. It's fun and interesting to make choices like "should I go advanced to get revenge on that proto pubstomper? Is it worth the risk to me of loosing it?" No other FPS games have you make decisions like that, it's part of what makes DUST the most interesting FPS ever made (not saying it doesn't have plenty of problems).
Confused as most of us are about EVE, I think that for all intents and purposes, we aren't looking for a solution similar to EVE. We're looking for something to resolve issues in DUST. The only thing that's similar is the name we have taken: tiercide.
Risk vs. ISK is not going away. In fact, many are supporting a more partial tiercide, which won't affect all items.
I on the other hand support a tiercide where variants are introduced to replace tiers. Look at the active scanners, for example. There are no massive overall bonuses as you unlock the new scanners. Instead, the top tier scanners have specialised purposes that only a few people will pay the extra money to use because it fits into that unique playstyle.
Currently, dropsuits and most weapons don't support this. Higher tier unlocks don't have weaknesses; they become better overall and suddenly someone's performance becomes better overall because of this. I want to see, as you upgrade AR Operation, more variants. How about an AR which doesn't make you show up on the minimap? How about an AR which shoots silently but does make you show on the minimap? What about a variant with no clip but half the maximum ammo capacity?
Why can't we have those instead of a GEK?
And to reiterate, risk vs. ISK stays. Variants of the basic AR will be much more expensive (low demand as they're specialised), but overall will remain on par with the basic AR. Notice how I highlight overall. An AR which doesn't make you appear on the minimap will be extremely effective if used by a scout who can't be scanned, but if that scout is noticed the AR loses it's advantage. Strengths and weaknesses.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6707
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 21:17:00 -
[81] - Quote
I hope it happens when all suits get added. |
Samuel Zelik
D.A.R.K Academy D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
64
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 21:26:00 -
[82] - Quote
Unrelated to this post but I had a question for Kage. You had an idea about a new type of big Shield Installation with multiple hacking points or something similar (I was having trouble understanding it the way it was worded). I'm having trouble finding the thread; could you post a link to it? I'd like to reference the idea in a post I want to make. Thanks. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6707
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 21:31:00 -
[83] - Quote
Samuel Zelik wrote:Unrelated to this post but I had a question for Kage. You had an idea about a new type of big Shield Installation with multiple hacking points or something similar (I was having trouble understanding it the way it was worded). I'm having trouble finding the thread; could you post a link to it? I'd like to reference the idea in a post I want to make. Thanks. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114132 this? or https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=97218 this?
These are my only installation ideas I can think of. |
Ulysses Knapse
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
507
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 01:21:00 -
[84] - Quote
What about Tech II?
I want Tech II...
I need Tech II. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6852
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 01:19:00 -
[85] - Quote
Updated the the OP a bit. Basic frame skills should have a bonus that also applies to the specializations in that frame size. Would give reason to put SP in basic frames.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
522
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 02:53:00 -
[86] - Quote
CCP seriously just needs to do this.
New players wouldn't have as much of gap between vets but vets still would have enough of an advantage to make them feel like their time spent playing was worthwhile.
It would make balancing scouts easier for CCP. As someone else pointed out, scout eHP progression is much lower than than the other suits since we (are supposed to) rely more on biotics and we have less slots. However, weapon damage progression is is more balanced around the medium's increasing health. |
Defy Gravity
Unreal-MoFos
126
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 03:09:00 -
[87] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Read the whole thing before posting something Tiercide: the removal of tiers. There should only be 2 dropsuit tiers, MLT for testing things out without needing skills, and STD for when you have the skills to use the dropsuit. There are many threads on the subject, this and this, but I thought I should make one specifically about how it should be handled. gbghg's thread covered why it needs to happen, and this thread is mostly about how to implement it, but basically here is why it needs to happen in case you don't want to read a bunch of paragraphs: Tiers create imbalance in PVP, and there are no options besides PVP for new players to engage in until they can compete. This means players with less SP have an unreasonably massive disadvantage, and no other option besides getting stomped by vets for months to catch up. Some people might say something stupid like "New Eden isn't fair, HTFU", but this hurts player retention, and ultimately hurts the game's longevity; even EVE got rid of the tiers on the ships, and chose to go with just specializations.
Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked.
Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players using the same suit type, so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun.
[What should be tiercided & what should not]:Dropsuits and ONLY dropsuits should be tiercided. Weapons, equipment, and modules should remain tiered; this is because low tier weapons, equipment, and modules still have a purpose as low PG/CPU costing alternatives which can be useful in making a fitting. Low tier dropsuits however have no such advantage when creating a fit. [MLT basic frame dropsuits and their skills]:Militia tier needs to exist as a way to test things out without SP investment. Make militia gear equivalent to the current ADV basic frame dropsuits. They should retain the same ISK cost as MLT suits. [STD basic frame droptuits]: Standard basic frames should be the equivalent of the current PRO basic frames. Should cost the same as the current STD suits. The operation skills for basic frames need to give some kind of bonus to justify having 5 levels since specializations are unlocked at level 3. This bonus should also apply to all dropsuit specialization in that racial frame size. [Specializations]: Some of you may be thinking "without tiers, why would I spend SP on dropsuits?", the answer is to unlock specializations, and skill bonuses. Specializations should be a bit more expensive than the basic frame counterparts, but not by much since they aren't meant to be better, just more specialized at one particular area. Tiercided specialized suits (like assault or logistics) should be equivalent to the current PRO specialized suits. [Monetization]: Specialized suits with no skill requirements could still be sold. Having more specializations (at least 3 per frame size) would lead to a lot of dropsuits CCP could have for sell.
Certain AUR suits could have skill-bonuses of that specialization built in and maxed out to incentivize spending AUR. Don't want to max out Amarr assault skill, but want to be better with lasers? buy some AUR Amarr assaults.
This is basically how I would want tierside to be handled. Only dropsuits should be effected, MLT will basically be ADV, STD should be PRO level, no more ADV and PRO dropsuits. Basic frame skills should give some kind of bonus, and there should be more specializations. No.
GÇ£War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.GÇ¥
GÇò George Orwell
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6853
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Posted - 2013.11.01 03:16:00 -
[88] - Quote
Defy Gravity wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Read the whole thing before posting something Tiercide: the removal of tiers. There should only be 2 dropsuit tiers, MLT for testing things out without needing skills, and STD for when you have the skills to use the dropsuit. There are many threads on the subject, this and this, but I thought I should make one specifically about how it should be handled. gbghg's thread covered why it needs to happen, and this thread is mostly about how to implement it, but basically here is why it needs to happen in case you don't want to read a bunch of paragraphs: Tiers create imbalance in PVP, and there are no options besides PVP for new players to engage in until they can compete. This means players with less SP have an unreasonably massive disadvantage, and no other option besides getting stomped by vets for months to catch up. Some people might say something stupid like "New Eden isn't fair, HTFU", but this hurts player retention, and ultimately hurts the game's longevity; even EVE got rid of the tiers on the ships, and chose to go with just specializations.
Tiers also lead to many items becoming obsolete once a higher tier version is unlocked.
Removing tiers would make the game much more fun since there will no longer be such a massive difference in HP between players using the same suit type, so basically everyone will have a chance to be effective, and do well without having to worry about massive advantages and disadvantages ruining their fun.
[What should be tiercided & what should not]:Dropsuits and ONLY dropsuits should be tiercided. Weapons, equipment, and modules should remain tiered; this is because low tier weapons, equipment, and modules still have a purpose as low PG/CPU costing alternatives which can be useful in making a fitting. Low tier dropsuits however have no such advantage when creating a fit. [MLT basic frame dropsuits and their skills]:Militia tier needs to exist as a way to test things out without SP investment. Make militia gear equivalent to the current ADV basic frame dropsuits. They should retain the same ISK cost as MLT suits. [STD basic frame droptuits]: Standard basic frames should be the equivalent of the current PRO basic frames. Should cost the same as the current STD suits. The operation skills for basic frames need to give some kind of bonus to justify having 5 levels since specializations are unlocked at level 3. This bonus should also apply to all dropsuit specialization in that racial frame size. [Specializations]: Some of you may be thinking "without tiers, why would I spend SP on dropsuits?", the answer is to unlock specializations, and skill bonuses. Specializations should be a bit more expensive than the basic frame counterparts, but not by much since they aren't meant to be better, just more specialized at one particular area. Tiercided specialized suits (like assault or logistics) should be equivalent to the current PRO specialized suits. [Monetization]: Specialized suits with no skill requirements could still be sold. Having more specializations (at least 3 per frame size) would lead to a lot of dropsuits CCP could have for sell.
Certain AUR suits could have skill-bonuses of that specialization built in and maxed out to incentivize spending AUR. Don't want to max out Amarr assault skill, but want to be better with lasers? buy some AUR Amarr assaults.
This is basically how I would want tierside to be handled. Only dropsuits should be effected, MLT will basically be ADV, STD should be PRO level, no more ADV and PRO dropsuits. Basic frame skills should give some kind of bonus, and there should be more specializations. YES. Fixed
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
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Void Echo
Blades of Dust
2024
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Posted - 2013.11.01 03:24:00 -
[89] - Quote
your incorrect on one thing in eve there are tier but they go by a different name.
Tech-1, Tech-2, Tech-3 and, and within those tech levels, there are countless sublevels like the ones your explaining, but those also have sublevels, and the reason this is that way is because there is soo much complex stuff in eve online that to generalize them into 3 different categories would be disastrous.
having Tech levels instead of tier levels would benefit dust more like it has done with eve. but only when this game has at least 10% of the content CCP promised us, so far we barely have 5%
Closed Beta Vet
Level 2 Forum Warrior
"In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6853
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Posted - 2013.11.01 03:26:00 -
[90] - Quote
Void Echo wrote:your incorrect on one thing in eve there are tier but they go by a different name.
Tech-1, Tech-2, Tech-3 and, and within those tech levels, there are countless sublevels like the ones your explaining, but those also have sublevels, and the reason this is that way is because there is soo much complex stuff in eve online that to generalize them into 3 different categories would be disastrous.
having Tech levels instead of tier levels would benefit dust more like it has done with eve. but only when this game has at least 10% of the content CCP promised us, so far we barely have 5% Tech levels are more like specializations than tiers from what I understand.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
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