It's more than a slight difference by the numbers:



Caldari/Gallente Ehp comes out to 330, and Amarr Ehp is 360 base.

So the Amarr get 30 more hp, THIRTY.

For this 30 hp, their speed is 4% slower than Caldari/Gallente, AND they have 1 less module slot.

So, a new basic armor plate would give you more hp at less of a speed hit. Actually, there is no existing armor plate that gives you so little hp for a speed hit of 4% (and that's before the armor rebalance). Even if you argue that they have better fitting than the other assault suits, that advantage is largely negated by missing a slot.

Basically, I think the pros & cons need a little more looking at. Why exactly is the Amarr 4% slower with one less module slot? Because 30 HP seems pretty silly as a reason.

Keep in mind the amarr assault sprints for 5 seconds longer than any other assault.
Also the skill bonus to amarr weaponry from the assault bonus cannot be overlooked, it basically make the standard laser rifle=proto but with easier fitting and less feedback damage. It also enables 4 consecutive charge shots out of the scrambler rifle before overheat.
Also it has respectable cpu/pg output compared to othe races, and when you look at it in relation to the lower number of module slots, it means amarr can easily fit the highest level of everything on their suit.
Of course, because this is my suit of choice, I won't stop you from asking for a buff -.o

I would hope that they would've taken this into account with the armor rebalance in 1.4, since it's an infantry-focused update.

To take into account the whole picture the Amarr gets:
- More CPU/PG than other suits
- More hp than other suits
- Longer sprint duration

At the expense of:
- Movement speed
- Module count

One aspect I'd like to point out though is that the Amarr speed penalty doesn't affect stacking penalties for movement penalties. That means an Amarr Assault gets -9% movement speed for being Amarr and having a (1.4) complex plate. A comparable Gallente suit would get about 100 more hp and less movement penalty from two complex plates because the stacking penalties affect the penalty of the second plate while the inherent movement penalty of the Amarr suit doesn't.

The Amarr Assault in particular needs a considerable buff to it's inherent hp bonus. The speed penalty should be kept as it supports the Amarr playstyle.

The sprint bonus is nice I guess, but movement is ultimately more important for assaults.

Interesting perspective. Amarr suits are puzzling in that they seem to have no real focus. I love Amarrian starships but when DUST came out of beta I made my dust bunny specialize in Gallente suits to start with so that I could feel like an Amarr should with big armor and damage upgrades to burn the unbelievers.

From reading between the lines, I suspect the racial trend will be:

Caldari: skirmishers + long-range weapons
Minmatar: skirmishers + short-range weapons
Amarr: bricks + long-range weapons
Gallente: bricks + short-range weapons

Obviously there's nuances I'm not expanding on here, and it's a bit hand-wavey, but the gist is there.

The amarr should really have more hp to begin with.

Something like:
250/250 for standard suits (625 ehp at level 5 shield and armor)
300/300 for commando (750 ehp)
400/400 for heavy (1000 ehp)

right now it's about
210/210 (450 ehp)
250/250 (625 ehp)
400/400 (1000 ehp)

Regular Amarr Assault is 180/180 (without passives)
or
120/180 for Logistics right now.

It's more than a slight difference by the numbers:



Caldari/Gallente Ehp comes out to 330, and Amarr Ehp is 360 base.

So the Amarr get 30 more hp, THIRTY.

For this 30 hp, their speed is 4% slower than Caldari/Gallente, AND they have 1 less module slot.

So, a new basic armor plate would give you more hp at less of a speed hit. Actually, there is no existing armor plate that gives you so little hp for a speed hit of 4% (and that's before the armor rebalance). Even if you argue that they have better fitting than the other assault suits, that advantage is largely negated by missing a slot.

Basically, I think the pros & cons need a little more looking at. Why exactly is the Amarr 4% slower with one less module slot? Because 30 HP seems pretty silly as a reason.

that hitpoint advantige means they can tank one more ar round than every one else

I'd be curious to see what the Dev rationale for the difference is.

I'm fairly certain this is a "small fish"-problem to the devs. There definitely are bigger problems in Dust right now and the devs are right to spend most of their work on those issues.

However I still feel that this is a problem that can be fixed comparatively easy. Just bump the Amarr suit's hp advantage up from 30 hp to like 60 hp and you can be sure that the suit will still be underpowered, but less dramatically so. Small change, only winners.

True. Each Dropsuit should have about the same HP and total slots with only a difference in their distribution and secondary attributes. Like EVE.

From reading between the lines, I suspect the racial trend will be:

Caldari: skirmishers + long-range weapons
Minmatar: skirmishers + short-range weapons + speed whoring
Amarr: bricks + Decent Short and long range options + more brickishness added for fun
Gallente: bricks + short-range and violently powerful weapons

Obviously there's nuances I'm not expanding on here, and it's a bit hand-wavey, but the gist is there.

Definitely agree that changes to armor modules should have come with a change to dropsuit base attributes. It is not just the Amarr either in case anyone thinks I'm bias, I'd like to point towards that "If 1 shield HP = 2 armor HP" thread stating that Gallente suits should have higher base armor.

Well 1shield = 1.3 armor. Therefore basestats Gallente should be 120/275 and Amarr 140/325.

210(1.3)= 275
180(1.3) + 90= 325
180/1.3= 140

All numbers are rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5.

This coupled with passive armor repairs, or a buff to armor repair modules would probably be the last steps into achieving balance.

Interesting, so you'd extend those same numbers to the Commando, Logi, Heavy, etc.?

Probably want to rethink the slower + more armor thing for the Amarr Scout as well.

Minmatar Assaults clock in at 5.3 move 7.4 sprint
Gallente Scouts clock in at 5.5 move 7.6 sprint

That doesn't leave much space for a scout that's noticeably faster than an assault but slower than the Gallente (as they've been doing it).

This could possibly make a 1.5 update... or a hotfix.

Keep in mind the amarr assault sprints for 5 seconds longer than any other assault.
Also the skill bonus to amarr weaponry from the assault bonus cannot be overlooked, it basically make the standard laser rifle=proto but with easier fitting and less feedback damage. It also enables 4 consecutive charge shots out of the scrambler rifle before overheat.
Also it has respectable cpu/pg output compared to othe races, and when you look at it in relation to the lower number of module slots, it means amarr can easily fit the highest level of everything on their suit.
Of course, because this is my suit of choice, I won't stop you from asking for a buff -.o

Worth mentioning... amidst the storm of one billion 1.4 posts.

Would you expect the quickest snail to be faster than a standard swallow?

But you're right, no one is forced to stick with Amarr suits just because they're Amarr. That means the Amarr Scout needs to be genuinely better at something than the Slave Assault is to have a niche to exist in.

By the way, I have concluded that the Amarr Std Logistics suit is rather worthless due to a lack of fitting resources. In comparison to the Amarr Assault the logistics suit gets 1 PG and 20 CPU to fill an extra equipment slot and a low slot. Any other race's Logistics suit is way more useful.
To anyone thinking up an answer to this issue: Don't reply with the idea of using a PG-mod on the low slot. That would take up at least 14 CPU just by itself.

Whilst the 30hp extra may not be worth the speed loss I don't think it needs an extra slot because it has an absurd amount of cpu/pg in comparison to the other suits. This basically equates to the other suits needing to run a fitting mod to keep up with it bringing them down to 6 total slots like the Amarr suit.

1 complex extender
2 complex damage or 2 more extenders
2 enhanced plates
1 complex repper
duvolle
six kin
core locus
k-2

Now im more than positive than no amount of core skills or cpu/pg reduction skills will allow you to fit that onto another assault without a fitting mod, hell I think you would probably need a cpu and pg upgrade cause that basically maxes my 453 cpu and 92 pg and the other medium suits cant touch that.

You absolute heretic. Armour tank the Amarr suit like it was meant to be tanked.

Above I was specifically talking about the standard level Amarr Logi. Do you think it fares well compared to other Logi suits too? I've noticed that the advanced and prototype variants seem to have enough of really quite everything.

Regarding the Amarr Assault:
I've recently gained level 3 in Amarr Assault and noticed a very steep increase in performance in relation to using the advanced basic suit. That weapon bonus is extremely potent with a Scrambler Rifle. Completely changes the game in relation to e.g. the Caldari +2% bonus to shield extenders. I'm not missing those ~60 hp and 0.2 speed my Amarr fit lacks on a comparable advanced Caldari or Gallente suit right now.

This may change when people realize that an Amarr merc not shooting at you in the first 500 ms of a fight does not imply friendliness.

Devs recently announced some adjustments to how armor plates will function, this includes adjusting speed penalties and HP awarded.

The concern here is that there's an existing armor "paradigm" that seems to assign the hp totals to suits.

The general theme for suits across races is something like:

Amarr: most HP, slowest, has fewer slots.
Caldari/Gallente: Middle HP, Caldari are weighted towards shields, Gallente are weighted towards armor... both are faster than Amarr
Minmatar: Least HP, fastest, not necessarily the most slots though

So, you pay twice for a hp boost: you move slower (as if you were armored) and you have fewer slots (as if you have a pre-existing armor plate added that takes up space). However, if the standard armor plates are capable of giving more hp, with less penalty... does both missing a slot and having less speed make sense for what are not very large hp bonuses?

Probably would if the suit wasn't so flexible in its tanking options, hell running 3 extenders, 2 regulators and a complex rep nets you 600+ ehp with 443 shields starting recharge after three seconds, a fun fit I use often and very much in line with the Amarr ideals.

seems to me everyone in this thread is ignoring the higher cpu and pg and disreguaring the higher hitpoint amount as pointless... then remove the high cpu and pg from the amarr and add another low slot fixed...

Coplex armour plates on a gallente suit armed with an Imperial Scrambler Rifle backed up by a good logi = death machine.

Unfortunately the Amarr don't armour tank.

1st off:assault suits have 7 slots , EVEN MINMATAR.Amarr has 6
2nd: You are missing the point on how beautiful Amarr tech actually is:

-You look badass
-You have MORE HP (with passives, up to 450)
-You have SCOUT LEVEL stamina (no need for cardiac regulators like other suits)
-You have LOGI level CPU/PG. So even with 1 less slot you will never have to equip some cpu enhancer or Pg e. like other sad assaults might have to.
-20 Shield regen per sec is good (up to 25 with assault bonus)
-The 5% heat builup reduction for laser/scrambler weaponry is a big load of **** unless you are using laser weaponry.Then you DO have a great advantage there.


This is stuff other asaults DONT have. heh.....Amarr is IMO the best of assault suits,if you are using laser weaponry that is.....

The amarr assault DOES NOT need a buff. a 0.01 sprint speed and a 0.02 movement speed is all i take.
If not, dont touch it.

This makes me chuckle. My shield tanking amarr suits are usually much more hearty on the field.

I do run a fit with a complex plate and a complex repper with damage mods from time to time. The decent pool of ehp plus an extra boost to my scramblers already devastating charge shot is effective if you can keep them at range.

I hope CCP keeps working on armor tanking so I'll be able bale to not feel like I'm gimping myself by leaving the extenders at home.

@Zeylon Rho

The speed loss is only -0.03.

>..>

Looking Badass = no combat advantage <= It does for me XD

Need for stamina is relative - how much time do assaults spend running to and fro? The penalty is against move speed, move speed more directly translates to your ability to strafe and not die than sprint "time" (still slower sprinting as well).

AT biotics Lv 5 the speed difference is undetectable compared to other suits,and i can still run from an objective to the other without having to rest.So stamina = Less time in the open = Less damage.

Your CPU/PG are in fact, lower than a Logi's (for awhile it was higher than the Amarr Logi for some reason though). Interestingly, Amarr assault has the highest CPU/PG, followed by... Minmatar (lowest health), then Caldari/Gallente. So, you get the impression that the CPU/PG probably aren't directly related to HP or Speed.

The CPU IS Lower, i think the PG is still higher than the logi.This is because Assault amarrs are designed to carry LAser weaponry,that are indeed very expensive PG wise.

I wouldn't complain about their shield regen in particular, though it's not the highest either.
JAck of all trades bro.IT aint the worst either

The laser bonus is extremely situational as a bonus. It means the Amarr is sort of pigeon-holed into using a Laser Rifle or Scrambler to make use of their suit bonus, and these are weapon restrictions that other suits don't have. A caldari shield bonus is useful any time you use shields (often for most you'd think), whereas a laser-based restriction leaves you with a more narrow set of options as far as making the most of your suit.
We agree that the bonus is what really holds this suit back. BUT at the same time i apreciate it,i know how good amarr assault are and with another bonus, (Say 2% reload on light weapons for example) it would be the FOTM for sure.

In fact, in seems like the devs were basically saying "use a laser", as that also accounts for the PG/CPU difference. A scrambler rifle is the most PG-heavy weapon in the entire game. A STD-level Scrambler requires 11 PG, weight that against an AR. At PRO, the Imp Scrambler is 20 PG, that's higher than a PRO Forge gun (which is the next highest). To make the most use of your Amarr suit you need to use weapons with high fitting reqs that will tax your higher-than-average fittings.

They are designed for this weapons yup. as an amarr soldier i appreciate my suit lets me make the most of amarr weapons. AKA Laser/Scrambler rifles. If people want to use The flavor of the month weapon then go use another suit.

The lack of a slot may be intended to prevent the Amarr Ass. from abusing their high fitting overly much.
Indeed,but its still good since the amarr assault gains a lot of benefits from passive skills,plus if i can equip complex stuff in at least 5 of those 6 slots im happy.

Still, the HP trend is clear across the suits:

More HP = slower, Less HP = faster // At level 5 , the amarr suit has 450HP WIthout any modules.You are not THAT slow that cant survive with 800+ EHEM at proto level. I run an Amarr assault ADV and have 700 EHEP >..>

More specifically, that 30 HP is worth -4% movement/sprint. <==solved with Biotics Lv5, Passive +5%

You can explain the fitting and slot without looking at that. The one-slot for PG/CPU, stamina, but +laser specialty only is a more wonky comparison to draw. TRUE that.

This comparison in HP difference carries over to the Logi frames as well, even though the slot/fitting discussion becomes irrelevant. At least Amarr logis have 2 great bonuses, useful in many situations.

So, to re-focus topic, let's say this is about the hp difference and speed difference alone. The hp difference & speed hit are true across all the medium frames (and the scout technically). If armor has been adjusted to have less of a speed hit for more hp, shouldn't the fact the Amarr gets 30 hp for a 4% speed hit be looked at?
4% Speed is to gain a Lot of little advantages. If you compare -4% speed to 30HP, it does seem bad.But its 4% speed for:+30HP,200 stamina(highest of all assaults),a LOT of CPU/Pg,amarr weapon bonus,20 HP shield regen(minnies would love this). SO i think he 4% speed loss is legit. YOu make it sound like Amarr suit is just a Caldari/Gallante with 30 more HP and -4% speed....

This is bearing in mind that the other suit differences can be explained in other ways, and that movement speed is the key factor in strafing and most combat (and can't be compensated for with modules)
Yes it can. 1 Complex Kin cat and you amar will sprint at 8 with 200 staminal.LOL.
And the best thing is, you DO have the CPU and PG to equip this easily....

@Zeylon Rho

The speed loss is only -0.03.

>..>


AT biotics Lv 5 the speed difference is undetectable compared to other suits,and i can still run from an objective to the other without having to rest.So stamina = Less time in the open = Less damage.

More specifically, that 30 HP is worth -4% movement/sprint. <==solved with Biotics Lv5, Passive +5%

Still, the HP trend is clear across the suits:

More HP = slower, Less HP = faster // At level 5 , the amarr suit has 450HP WIthout any modules.You are not THAT slow that cant survive with 850+ EHP at proto level. I run an Amarr assault ADV and have 700 EHP >..>

So, to re-focus topic, let's say this is about the hp difference and speed difference alone. The hp difference & speed hit are true across all the medium frames (and the scout technically). If armor has been adjusted to have less of a speed hit for more hp, shouldn't the fact the Amarr gets 30 hp for a 4% speed hit be looked at?
4% Speed is to gain a Lot of little advantages. If you compare -4% speed to 30HP, it does seem bad.But its 4% speed for:+30HP,200 stamina(highest of all assaults),a LOT of CPU/Pg,amarr weapon bonus,20 HP shield regen(minnies would love this). SO i think he 4% speed loss is legit. YOu make it sound like Amarr suit is just a Caldari/Gallante with 30 more HP and -4% speed....

This is bearing in mind that the other suit differences can be explained in other ways, and that movement speed is the key factor in strafing and most combat (and can't be compensated for with modules)
Yes it can. 1 Complex Kin cat and you amar will sprint at 8 with 200 staminal.LOL.
And the best thing is, you DO have the CPU and PG to equip this easily....

Stuff

Today I was chatting with a corp mate and found out his proto assault suit had 700EHP. This irked me because my hybrid-tanked proto Amarr assault fit only has 600EHP and one of the advantages of running an Amarr suit is that its suppose to have more EHP than other suits in its frame size.

Today I was chatting with a corp mate and found out his proto assault suit had 700EHP. This irked me because my hybrid-tanked proto Amarr assault fit only has 600EHP and one of the advantages of running an Amarr suit is that its suppose to have more EHP than other suits in its frame size.

Are you only running 1 plate? 2 has been best in my experience with 1 complex rep. I don't think any other assault can carry proto light/sidearm/nades whilst having over 800ehp (I don't think anyway, they would run out of pg) which is how my fits look, may even be able to fit a proto hive on there now that I realised you get 5% cpu usage reduction on nanocircuitry.

The nanocircuitry bonus is possible a bug left over from chromosome, as they don't seem to be much for having skills explicitly assigned to equipment right now (not a good thing in my opinion).

A better question is if you can run a Proto Scrambler specifically, and have higher ehp than the other assaults. The Amarr PG and bonus seems to be about supporting the laser after all, and if you have to run Duvolles to eek out better fitting (which a Gallente would already have a bonus with), then the fact you can run nice weapons is less relevant.

To the extent that the Amarr can get higher HP now with armor plates, so can the other assaults. You can have a Gallente run Proto weapons and get over 800 ehp as well. The point of this post is addressing the base EHP difference specifically, with respect to the speed differences between suits.

I don't necessarily think the hp of the Amarr should be buffed and everything else left the same.

It's more about the concept of them adjusting what the relative value of armor is vs. shields and the speed penalties that are implied there. The Amarr is just the poster child for the issue since they were more specifically flagged as "slower and more hp".

The devs increased the relative amount of hp on armor plates while decreasing speed penalties. For balance issues, this makes me question where the Amarr is at with a 4% speed penalty and 30 more hp (compare to any armor plate), but the relative hp of commandos, Gallente suits, etc. is also worth looking at. It's perhaps even more relevant with respect to the TTK discussions and AA.

A Gallente assault suit's hp is the same as a Caldari, but flipped. One is armor tanked, and one shield tanked. The shield hp are relatively more valuable, as they restore themselves and are harder to get (shield extenders grant less than armor plates). Both suits are the same speed, though even with Ferroscale plates the Gallente would have more hp relatively speaking.

So, it's not just an Amarr suit issue, but it's perhaps more of a concern with the Amarr because they're pushed as "beefier" and in-context your 30hp of beefiness (marginal) is being paid for by a speed penalty that is overly punitive (4%) compared to most armor plates.

I'd keep the speeds the same and just adjust the hp of the suits. It might help TTK issues to some degree (ok, probably not).

We should get a rebalancing of Armour vs Shields. Amarr Armour Tank.

We should get a rebalancing of Armour vs Shields. Amarr Armour Tank.

We should get a rebalancing of Armour vs Shields. Amarr Armour Tank.

that hitpoint advantige means they can tank one more ar round than every one else

Amarr Logi here. My suit is fine. Don't buff it. I would go so far as to say its the most balanced suit in the game.
Now that I think about it, its also likely the most versatile suit as well. It is great for AV(probably the best swarm launcher suit), and being an Assault Logi that actually isn't better at being an Assault than Assaults, and being just a Logi.

Whilst the 30hp extra may not be worth the speed loss I don't think it needs an extra slot because it has an absurd amount of cpu/pg in comparison to the other suits. This basically equates to the other suits needing to run a fitting mod to keep up with it bringing them down to 6 total slots like the Amarr suit.

1 complex extender
2 complex damage or 2 more extenders
2 enhanced plates
1 complex repper
duvolle
six kin
core locus
k-2

Now im more than positive than no amount of core skills or cpu/pg reduction skills will allow you to fit that onto another assault without a fitting mod, hell I think you would probably need a cpu and pg upgrade cause that basically maxes my 453 cpu and 92 pg and the other medium suits cant touch that.

LEAVE THIS THREAD DIE.

For gods sake the Amarr Dropsuits are FINE.Actually they are the best...

If you buff them,they become OP.

NO

/End thread

Proved you wrong earlier, you have no grasp of what the stats even mean.

/hopefully-end-of-your-unhelpful-comments

I actually thought that Amar had that slight bonus because they aren't supposed to be like amar heavies and be tanks, they are supposed to equip damage mods, and be a true damage based assault, instead of armor/shield based.

You can't look at the stats in a vacuum either, it would be a bit off to only adjust the Amarr suit. Ballpark though, I was thinking something along the lines of 30-40 more base hp on the Amarr, and keep the speed penalty as-is. Probably something like 15-20 more to the gallente.

This would make for a difference of about 60hp with the caldari, but around 40hp-ish difference with the Gallente for the same speed hit (4%) as is current. That would still be less than the hp of a basic armor plate (85) with twice the speed hit (2%).

I've been trying to avoid concrete specifics on numbers because I kinda assumed they'd be redoing ALL the hp after they got around to the armor rebalance, and I was surprised that this wasn't the case. Some amount of the advantage of movement seems to have been lost with the AA being where it is too though.

Edit: As an aside about Minmatar specifically, I am somewhat iffy about how well they fill their role as the "versatile" race. The speed and lower hp is fine, but I would've expected their suits to have some marginal scanning/profile type bonuses and/or an extra slot (but not fitting) to reflect their supposed greater versatility. Instead, they're just a fast suit with somewhat higher fitting than Caldari/Gallente.

For some reason, I imagined that these several pages would be after a bit more than 30-40 more hp. That seems like a "safe" increase, though hardly momentous. 15-20 more for Gallente too, huh?

I could see improvements to scan/precision/profile for Minmatar suits... kinda like their ships I guess.

Sweeping changes must be avoided. Once CCP gets the impression that something needs to be done they'll first turn the Amarr suits into the feature of the month and just weeks later hit it with the nerf-bat until it is useless. The bigger the buff, the larger the following nerf. See small missiles or TAC ARs for reference.

Regarding heavy suits I guess we haven't seen the other racial heavy suits yet, so we can't compare the Amarr ones with anything in their class.

If they're rebalancing armor/shields as they seem to have been (compensating hp for the fact you can't regen armor super-fast), it does seem fair to have "slight" suit adjustments. The small tweak to Gallente/Amarr suits is probably fine (not sure if I'd go much higher than 40hp adjusting things).

Whomp.

Devs recently announced some adjustments to how armor plates will function, this includes adjusting speed penalties and HP awarded.

The concern here is that there's an existing armor "paradigm" that seems to assign the hp totals to suits.

The general theme for suits across races is something like:

Amarr: most HP, slowest, has fewer slots.
Caldari/Gallente: Middle HP, Caldari are weighted towards shields, Gallente are weighted towards armor... both are faster than Amarr
Minmatar: Least HP, fastest, not necessarily the most slots though

So, you pay twice for a hp boost: you move slower (as if you were armored) and you have fewer slots (as if you have a pre-existing armor plate added that takes up space). However, if the standard armor plates are capable of giving more hp, with less penalty... does both missing a slot and having less speed make sense for what are not very large hp bonuses?

Amarr have their lazoors and still over and above that the have thermal resistance which more than makes up for any speed loss.

If you actually expect them to fix this

Scouts have been on the receiving end of this for just as long.

We have less eHP (standard suit for minnie has 100 shields 70 armor BASE), less slots (5 at proto compared to 8 or 9 on assaults) and Gimped CPU/PG. All for what? Slightly higher movement speed and sprint speed (12% increase roughly?) and profile dampening (OUR ONLY SAVING GRACE)

They just don't know how to balance a specialized suit. They don't want it to be OP (like the cal Logi used to be) so they are erring on the UP side. Which just gets old after it not being fixed after 5 patches and beta.

I think this sort of change is within the scope of the sort of things they could hotfix.

Weekly bump because this is important.
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I just wanted to throw in my support.

For being the best armor buffer tanks in eve, this is pretty wrong. either give amarr back their missing slot, or seriously boost the innate ehp advantage. It is ridiculous that we give up an entire slot for 30 HP.

I can see sacrificing speed for stamina, but an entire slot for 30 hp?