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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1869
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Posted - 2013.08.16 05:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Devs recently announced some adjustments to how armor plates will function, this includes adjusting speed penalties and HP awarded.
The concern here is that there's an existing armor "paradigm" that seems to assign the hp totals to suits.
The general theme for suits across races is something like:
Amarr: most HP, slowest, has fewer slots. Caldari/Gallente: Middle HP, Caldari are weighted towards shields, Gallente are weighted towards armor... both are faster than Amarr Minmatar: Least HP, fastest, not necessarily the most slots though
So, you pay twice for a hp boost: you move slower (as if you were armored) and you have fewer slots (as if you have a pre-existing armor plate added that takes up space). However, if the standard armor plates are capable of giving more hp, with less penalty... does both missing a slot and having less speed make sense for what are not very large hp bonuses? |
Sardonk Eternia
Multnomah Interstellar Holdings Inc.
137
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Posted - 2013.08.18 08:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Interesting perspective. Amarr suits are puzzling in that they seem to have no real focus. I love Amarrian starships but when DUST came out of beta I made my dust bunny specialize in Gallente suits to start with so that I could feel like an Amarr should with big armor and damage upgrades to burn the unbelievers. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1895
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Posted - 2013.08.19 00:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's more than a slight difference by the numbers:
Caldari/Gallente Ehp comes out to 330, and Amarr Ehp is 360 base.
So the Amarr get 30 more hp, THIRTY.
For this 30 hp, their speed is 4% slower than Caldari/Gallente, AND they have 1 less module slot.
So, a new basic armor plate would give you more hp at less of a speed hit. Actually, there is no existing armor plate that gives you so little hp for a speed hit of 4% (and that before the armor rebalance). Even if you argue that they have better fitting than the other assault suits, that advantage is largely negated by missing a slot.
Basically, I think the pros & cons need a little more looking at. Why exactly is the Amarr 4% slower with one less module slot? Because 30 HP seems pretty silly as a reason. |
Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
141
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Posted - 2013.08.19 12:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'd favor some changes, though I'm arguably biased on this point. |
Nikea Nei
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
56
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Posted - 2013.08.19 14:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
While true, it's possible that changes to Amarr hp (if they decided to just bump it up) might be already in the works for the 1.4 changes. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
228
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Posted - 2013.08.19 14:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
If they're as well thought-through as the recent plate changes, I'll flip a table. |
Lillica Deathdealer
Mango and Friends
129
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Posted - 2013.08.19 14:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:It's more than a slight difference by the numbers:
Caldari/Gallente Ehp comes out to 330, and Amarr Ehp is 360 base.
So the Amarr get 30 more hp, THIRTY.
For this 30 hp, their speed is 4% slower than Caldari/Gallente, AND they have 1 less module slot.
So, a new basic armor plate would give you more hp at less of a speed hit. Actually, there is no existing armor plate that gives you so little hp for a speed hit of 4% (and that's before the armor rebalance). Even if you argue that they have better fitting than the other assault suits, that advantage is largely negated by missing a slot.
Basically, I think the pros & cons need a little more looking at. Why exactly is the Amarr 4% slower with one less module slot? Because 30 HP seems pretty silly as a reason. Keep in mind the amarr assault sprints for 5 seconds longer than any other assault. Also the skill bonus to amarr weaponry from the assault bonus cannot be overlooked, it basically make the standard laser rifle=proto but with easier fitting and less feedback damage. It also enables 4 consecutive charge shots out of the scrambler rifle before overheat. Of course, because this is my suit of choice, I won't stop you from asking for a buff -.o |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1922
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Posted - 2013.08.19 15:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lillica Deathdealer wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:It's more than a slight difference by the numbers:
Caldari/Gallente Ehp comes out to 330, and Amarr Ehp is 360 base.
So the Amarr get 30 more hp, THIRTY.
For this 30 hp, their speed is 4% slower than Caldari/Gallente, AND they have 1 less module slot.
So, a new basic armor plate would give you more hp at less of a speed hit. Actually, there is no existing armor plate that gives you so little hp for a speed hit of 4% (and that's before the armor rebalance). Even if you argue that they have better fitting than the other assault suits, that advantage is largely negated by missing a slot.
Basically, I think the pros & cons need a little more looking at. Why exactly is the Amarr 4% slower with one less module slot? Because 30 HP seems pretty silly as a reason. Keep in mind the amarr assault sprints for 5 seconds longer than any other assault. Also the skill bonus to amarr weaponry from the assault bonus cannot be overlooked, it basically make the standard laser rifle=proto but with easier fitting and less feedback damage. It also enables 4 consecutive charge shots out of the scrambler rifle before overheat. Also it has respectable cpu/pg output compared to othe races, and when you look at it in relation to the lower number of module slots, it means amarr can easily fit the highest level of everything on their suit. Of course, because this is my suit of choice, I won't stop you from asking for a buff -.o
I ignore the weapon bonus because the other Assaults all have bonuses too, and I don't think the passive bonuses are meant to compensate for suit differences. |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
408
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Posted - 2013.08.19 23:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
I agree with the nonsensical EHP. Though I am please with the Amarr logistics update - thank you CCP - there are other points to the amarr that should be addressed. Specifically the HP, speed and PG/CPU. After the great Vehicle Balancing of 2013 (1.5 or so) I hope this is addressed with the Great Suit Rebalancing (1.6 or so) so that we can lay some of these persistent issues to rest. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1939
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Posted - 2013.08.20 05:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
I would hope that they would've taken this into account with the armor rebalance in 1.4, since it's an infantry-focused update. |
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Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
141
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Posted - 2013.08.20 11:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:I would hope that they would've taken this into account with the armor rebalance in 1.4, since it's an infantry-focused update.
"Hope", eh? |
Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
203
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Posted - 2013.08.20 16:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
To take into account the whole picture the Amarr gets: - More CPU/PG than other suits - More hp than other suits - Longer sprint duration
At the expense of: - Movement speed - Module count
One aspect I'd like to point out though is that the Amarr speed penalty doesn't affect stacking penalties for movement penalties. That means an Amarr Assault gets -9% movement speed for being Amarr and having a (1.4) complex plate. A comparable Gallente suit would get about 100 more hp and less movement penalty from two complex plates because the stacking penalties affect the penalty of the second plate while the inherent movement penalty of the Amarr suit doesn't.
The Amarr Assault in particular needs a considerable buff to it's inherent hp bonus. The speed penalty should be kept as it supports the Amarr playstyle. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1950
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Posted - 2013.08.20 16:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:To take into account the whole picture the Amarr gets: - More CPU/PG than other suits - More hp than other suits - Longer sprint duration
At the expense of: - Movement speed - Module count
One aspect I'd like to point out though is that the Amarr speed penalty doesn't affect stacking penalties for movement penalties. That means an Amarr Assault gets -9% movement speed for being Amarr and having a (1.4) complex plate. A comparable Gallente suit would get about 100 more hp and less movement penalty from two complex plates because the stacking penalties affect the penalty of the second plate while the inherent movement penalty of the Amarr suit doesn't.
The Amarr Assault in particular needs a considerable buff to it's inherent hp bonus. The speed penalty should be kept as it supports the Amarr playstyle.
There's several ways of fixing it, though a hp buff is probably the least complicated. I wouldn't want all the suits to be the same, but they're not particularly well differentiated now. I feel the relative hp bonus vs. the speed hit is too steep. The sprint bonus is nice I guess, but movement is ultimately more important for assaults. |
Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
203
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Posted - 2013.08.20 16:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:The sprint bonus is nice I guess, but movement is ultimately more important for assaults. Not if you're Amarr. How are you going to land those Scrambler Pistol headshots when you're strafing around like a slave?
Let them dance. Let your faith and an inch of alloy be your armor and just wait for your Scrambler Rifle to fully charge. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1951
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Posted - 2013.08.20 16:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
I don't think 30hp is quite an inch of alloy. Being able to move a bit faster/closer is VERY useful in lining up shots, especially with the range being what it is (TAR outranges Scrambler still) - and the pistol has the worst range of the sidearms unless you count the Nova.
Amarr "move" speed is about to get even slower mind you, since they're changing strafing again. |
Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
203
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Posted - 2013.08.20 16:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
As I said, I don't think the 30 hp are enough for the movement penalty, but I do think that Amarr suits should stay the slowest of the bunch. They should however get enough of a health boost to justify the penalty. Right now it doesn't really work out since the CPU/PG bonus the Amarr suits get is completely eaten up by the fact that the Amarr weapons are rather non-competitive at a basic level and without damage mods. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
232
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Posted - 2013.08.21 02:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sardonk Eternia wrote:Interesting perspective. Amarr suits are puzzling in that they seem to have no real focus. I love Amarrian starships but when DUST came out of beta I made my dust bunny specialize in Gallente suits to start with so that I could feel like an Amarr should with big armor and damage upgrades to burn the unbelievers.
From reading between the lines, I suspect the racial trend will be:
Caldari: skirmishers + long-range weapons Minmatar: skirmishers + short-range weapons Amarr: bricks + long-range weapons Gallente: bricks + short-range weapons
Obviously there's nuances I'm not expanding on here, and it's a bit hand-wavey, but the gist is there. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1964
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 06:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Sardonk Eternia wrote:Interesting perspective. Amarr suits are puzzling in that they seem to have no real focus. I love Amarrian starships but when DUST came out of beta I made my dust bunny specialize in Gallente suits to start with so that I could feel like an Amarr should with big armor and damage upgrades to burn the unbelievers. From reading between the lines, I suspect the racial trend will be: Caldari: skirmishers + long-range weapons Minmatar: skirmishers + short-range weapons Amarr: bricks + long-range weapons Gallente: bricks + short-range weapons Obviously there's nuances I'm not expanding on here, and it's a bit hand-wavey, but the gist is there.
Part of what irks me about the somewhat crap range on the Scrambler Rifle vs. the TAR, or the Scrambler Pistol vs. the Flaylock/SMG I guess.
Neither the Amarr or the Gallente or brick-ish now, and both the other races can throw on plates just as easily as them.
Slightly separate issue, but the same current trend extended to scouts (Amarr scout = slow, fewer slots, 30 more hp?) would be laughably bad. |
Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
142
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 08:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
The Amarr scout may not pop up until after they'd "given scouts some love" anyway. |
I-Shayz-I
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
672
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 11:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
The amarr should really have more hp to begin with.
Something like: 210/210 for standard suits (525 ehp at level 5 shield and armor) 300/300 for commando (750 ehp) 405/405 for heavy (1025 ehp)
right now it's about 180/180 (450 ehp) 250/250 (625 ehp) 405/405 (1025 ehp) |
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2009
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Posted - 2013.08.22 11:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:The amarr should really have more hp to begin with.
Something like: 250/250 for standard suits (625 ehp at level 5 shield and armor) 300/300 for commando (750 ehp) 400/400 for heavy (1000 ehp)
right now it's about 210/210 (450 ehp) 250/250 (625 ehp) 400/400 (1000 ehp)
Regular Amarr Assault is 180/180 (without passives) or 120/180 for Logistics right now.
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I-Shayz-I
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
672
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 11:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:The amarr should really have more hp to begin with.
Something like: 250/250 for standard suits (625 ehp at level 5 shield and armor) 300/300 for commando (750 ehp) 400/400 for heavy (1000 ehp)
right now it's about 210/210 (450 ehp) 250/250 (625 ehp) 400/400 (1000 ehp) Regular Amarr Assault is 180/180 (without passives) or 120/180 for Logistics right now.
Damn you, I wasn't finished editing the post for the 50th time yet XD
I was messing around with the numbers, and couldn't find a set that I liked and accidentally kept putting the wrong ones where they should go. It's good now though.
Plus, my internet keeps acting up so it wouldn't post the new edits. |
padraic darby
planetary tactical enforcement DARKSTAR ARMY
33
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Posted - 2013.08.22 11:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:It's more than a slight difference by the numbers:
Caldari/Gallente Ehp comes out to 330, and Amarr Ehp is 360 base.
So the Amarr get 30 more hp, THIRTY.
For this 30 hp, their speed is 4% slower than Caldari/Gallente, AND they have 1 less module slot.
So, a new basic armor plate would give you more hp at less of a speed hit. Actually, there is no existing armor plate that gives you so little hp for a speed hit of 4% (and that's before the armor rebalance). Even if you argue that they have better fitting than the other assault suits, that advantage is largely negated by missing a slot.
Basically, I think the pros & cons need a little more looking at. Why exactly is the Amarr 4% slower with one less module slot? Because 30 HP seems pretty silly as a reason.
that hitpoint advantige means they can tank one more ar round than every one else |
Kira Lannister
Ancient Exiles
1073
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 20:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
You heretics shall not speak ill of our holy armor. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2119
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 09:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
padraic darby wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:It's more than a slight difference by the numbers:
Caldari/Gallente Ehp comes out to 330, and Amarr Ehp is 360 base.
So the Amarr get 30 more hp, THIRTY.
For this 30 hp, their speed is 4% slower than Caldari/Gallente, AND they have 1 less module slot.
So, a new basic armor plate would give you more hp at less of a speed hit. Actually, there is no existing armor plate that gives you so little hp for a speed hit of 4% (and that's before the armor rebalance). Even if you argue that they have better fitting than the other assault suits, that advantage is largely negated by missing a slot.
Basically, I think the pros & cons need a little more looking at. Why exactly is the Amarr 4% slower with one less module slot? Because 30 HP seems pretty silly as a reason. that hitpoint advantige means they can tank one more ar round than every one else
I guess they could nerf every weapon in the game to keep the advantage as-is, but taking a look at the suit stats seems like the smarter route to me.
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Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
147
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Posted - 2013.08.27 11:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
I'd be curious to see what the Dev rationale for the difference is. If 30 HP of armor is worth a 4% speed hit and a module slot, that's quite a hit.
Maybe the problem is that you can still function with that sort of handicap, and so it doesn't show up in the numbers so much. Being at a disadvantage doesn't necessarily mean being curb-stomped, but a statistical difference shouldn't have to be on the level of the TAR to warrant attention. |
Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
229
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Posted - 2013.08.27 16:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:I'd be curious to see what the Dev rationale for the difference is. I'm fairly certain this is a "small fish"-problem to the devs. There definitely are bigger problems in Dust right now and the devs are right to spend most of their work on those issues.
However I still feel that this is a problem that can be fixed comparatively easy. Just bump the Amarr suit's hp advantage up from 30 hp to like 60 hp and you can be sure that the suit will still be underpowered, but less dramatically so. Small change, only winners. |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1448
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Posted - 2013.08.27 19:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:I'd be curious to see what the Dev rationale for the difference is. I'm fairly certain this is a "small fish"-problem to the devs. There definitely are bigger problems in Dust right now and the devs are right to spend most of their work on those issues. However I still feel that this is a problem that can be fixed comparatively easy. Just bump the Amarr suit's hp advantage up from 30 hp to like 60 hp and you can be sure that the suit will still be underpowered, but less dramatically so. Small change, only winners.
I like the idea of small changes until things are balanced. drastic changes aren't cool, but this should be small enough to turn the tide while not breaking the game. |
Cyrille Fodeux
DUST University Ivy League
68
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Posted - 2013.08.27 20:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
True. Each Dropsuit should have about the same HP and total slots with only a difference in their distribution and secondary attributes. Like EVE. |
Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1337
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 20:28:00 -
[30] - Quote
Definitely agree that changes to armor modules should have come with a change to dropsuit base attributes. It is not just the Amarr either in case anyone thinks I'm bias, I'd like to point towards that "If 1 shield HP = 2 armor HP" thread stating that Gallente suits should have higher base armor. |
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