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True Adamance
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1910
   |
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:05:00 -
[61] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Unfortunately the Amarr don't armour tank.
This makes me chuckle. My shield tanking amarr suits are usually much more hearty on the field. I do run a fit with a complex plate and a complex repper with damage mods from time to time. The decent pool of ehp plus an extra boost to my scramblers already devastating charge shot is effective if you can keep them at range. I hope CCP keeps working on armor tanking so I'll be able bale to not feel like I'm gimping myself by leaving the extenders at home.
Did I seriously ******* write that.
50 days and nights of penance for me I guess. |
KING CHECKMATE
TEAM SATISFACTION
969
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:21:00 -
[62] - Quote
@Zeylon Rho
The speed loss is only -0.03.
>..>
Looking Badass = no combat advantage <= It does for me XD
Need for stamina is relative - how much time do assaults spend running to and fro? The penalty is against move speed, move speed more directly translates to your ability to strafe and not die than sprint "time" (still slower sprinting as well).
AT biotics Lv 5 the speed difference is undetectable compared to other suits,and i can still run from an objective to the other without having to rest.So stamina = Less time in the open = Less damage.
Your CPU/PG are in fact, lower than a Logi's (for awhile it was higher than the Amarr Logi for some reason though). Interestingly, Amarr assault has the highest CPU/PG, followed by... Minmatar (lowest health), then Caldari/Gallente. So, you get the impression that the CPU/PG probably aren't directly related to HP or Speed.
The CPU IS Lower, i think the PG is still higher than the logi.This is because Assault amarrs are designed to carry LAser weaponry,that are indeed very expensive PG wise.
I wouldn't complain about their shield regen in particular, though it's not the highest either.
JAck of all trades bro.IT aint the worst either
The laser bonus is extremely situational as a bonus. It means the Amarr is sort of pigeon-holed into using a Laser Rifle or Scrambler to make use of their suit bonus, and these are weapon restrictions that other suits don't have. A caldari shield bonus is useful any time you use shields (often for most you'd think), whereas a laser-based restriction leaves you with a more narrow set of options as far as making the most of your suit.
We agree that the bonus is what really holds this suit back. BUT at the same time i apreciate it,i know how good amarr assault are and with another bonus, (Say 2% reload on light weapons for example) it would be the FOTM for sure.
In fact, in seems like the devs were basically saying "use a laser", as that also accounts for the PG/CPU difference. A scrambler rifle is the most PG-heavy weapon in the entire game. A STD-level Scrambler requires 11 PG, weight that against an AR. At PRO, the Imp Scrambler is 20 PG, that's higher than a PRO Forge gun (which is the next highest). To make the most use of your Amarr suit you need to use weapons with high fitting reqs that will tax your higher-than-average fittings.
They are designed for this weapons yup. as an amarr soldier i appreciate my suit lets me make the most of amarr weapons. AKA Laser/Scrambler rifles. If people want to use The flavor of the month weapon then go use another suit.
The lack of a slot may be intended to prevent the Amarr Ass. from abusing their high fitting overly much.
Indeed,but its still good since the amarr assault gains a lot of benefits from passive skills,plus if i can equip complex stuff in at least 5 of those 6 slots im happy.
Still, the HP trend is clear across the suits:
More HP = slower, Less HP = faster // At level 5 , the amarr suit has 450HP WIthout any modules.You are not THAT slow that cant survive with 850+ EHP at proto level. I run an Amarr assault ADV and have 700 EHP >..>
More specifically, that 30 HP is worth -4% movement/sprint. <==solved with Biotics Lv5, Passive +5%
You can explain the fitting and slot without looking at that. The one-slot for PG/CPU, stamina, but +laser specialty only is a more wonky comparison to draw. TRUE that.
This comparison in HP difference carries over to the Logi frames as well, even though the slot/fitting discussion becomes irrelevant. At least Amarr logis have 2 great bonuses, useful in many situations.
So, to re-focus topic, let's say this is about the hp difference and speed difference alone. The hp difference & speed hit are true across all the medium frames (and the scout technically). If armor has been adjusted to have less of a speed hit for more hp, shouldn't the fact the Amarr gets 30 hp for a 4% speed hit be looked at?
4% Speed is to gain a Lot of little advantages. If you compare -4% speed to 30HP, it does seem bad.But its 4% speed for:+30HP,200 stamina(highest of all assaults),a LOT of CPU/Pg,amarr weapon bonus,20 HP shield regen(minnies would love this). SO i think he 4% speed loss is legit. YOu make it sound like Amarr suit is just a Caldari/Gallante with 30 more HP and -4% speed....
This is bearing in mind that the other suit differences can be explained in other ways, and that movement speed is the key factor in strafing and most combat (and can't be compensated for with modules)
Yes it can. 1 Complex Kin cat and you amar will sprint at 8 with 200 staminal.LOL.
And the best thing is, you DO have the CPU and PG to equip this easily.... |
True Adamance
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1910
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:23:00 -
[63] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:@Zeylon Rho
The speed loss is only -0.03.
>..>
Looking Badass = no combat advantage <= It does for me XD
Need for stamina is relative - how much time do assaults spend running to and fro? The penalty is against move speed, move speed more directly translates to your ability to strafe and not die than sprint "time" (still slower sprinting as well).
AT biotics Lv 5 the speed difference is undetectable compared to other suits,and i can still run from an objective to the other without having to rest.So stamina = Less time in the open = Less damage.
Your CPU/PG are in fact, lower than a Logi's (for awhile it was higher than the Amarr Logi for some reason though). Interestingly, Amarr assault has the highest CPU/PG, followed by... Minmatar (lowest health), then Caldari/Gallente. So, you get the impression that the CPU/PG probably aren't directly related to HP or Speed.
The CPU IS Lower, i think the PG is still higher than the logi.This is because Assault amarrs are designed to carry LAser weaponry,that are indeed very expensive PG wise.
I wouldn't complain about their shield regen in particular, though it's not the highest either.
JAck of all trades bro.IT aint the worst either
The laser bonus is extremely situational as a bonus. It means the Amarr is sort of pigeon-holed into using a Laser Rifle or Scrambler to make use of their suit bonus, and these are weapon restrictions that other suits don't have. A caldari shield bonus is useful any time you use shields (often for most you'd think), whereas a laser-based restriction leaves you with a more narrow set of options as far as making the most of your suit.
We agree that the bonus is what really holds this suit back. BUT at the same time i apreciate it,i know how good amarr assault are and with another bonus, (Say 2% reload on light weapons for example) it would be the FOTM for sure.
In fact, in seems like the devs were basically saying "use a laser", as that also accounts for the PG/CPU difference. A scrambler rifle is the most PG-heavy weapon in the entire game. A STD-level Scrambler requires 11 PG, weight that against an AR. At PRO, the Imp Scrambler is 20 PG, that's higher than a PRO Forge gun (which is the next highest). To make the most use of your Amarr suit you need to use weapons with high fitting reqs that will tax your higher-than-average fittings.
They are designed for this weapons yup. as an amarr soldier i appreciate my suit lets me make the most of amarr weapons. AKA Laser/Scrambler rifles. If people want to use The flavor of the month weapon then go use another suit.
The lack of a slot may be intended to prevent the Amarr Ass. from abusing their high fitting overly much.
Indeed,but its still good since the amarr assault gains a lot of benefits from passive skills,plus if i can equip complex stuff in at least 5 of those 6 slots im happy.
Still, the HP trend is clear across the suits:
More HP = slower, Less HP = faster // At level 5 , the amarr suit has 450HP WIthout any modules.You are not THAT slow that cant survive with 800+ EHEM at proto level. I run an Amarr assault ADV and have 700 EHEP >..>
More specifically, that 30 HP is worth -4% movement/sprint. <==solved with Biotics Lv5, Passive +5%
You can explain the fitting and slot without looking at that. The one-slot for PG/CPU, stamina, but +laser specialty only is a more wonky comparison to draw. TRUE that.
This comparison in HP difference carries over to the Logi frames as well, even though the slot/fitting discussion becomes irrelevant. At least Amarr logis have 2 great bonuses, useful in many situations.
So, to re-focus topic, let's say this is about the hp difference and speed difference alone. The hp difference & speed hit are true across all the medium frames (and the scout technically). If armor has been adjusted to have less of a speed hit for more hp, shouldn't the fact the Amarr gets 30 hp for a 4% speed hit be looked at?
4% Speed is to gain a Lot of little advantages. If you compare -4% speed to 30HP, it does seem bad.But its 4% speed for:+30HP,200 stamina(highest of all assaults),a LOT of CPU/Pg,amarr weapon bonus,20 HP shield regen(minnies would love this). SO i think he 4% speed loss is legit. YOu make it sound like Amarr suit is just a Caldari/Gallante with 30 more HP and -4% speed....
This is bearing in mind that the other suit differences can be explained in other ways, and that movement speed is the key factor in strafing and most combat (and can't be compensated for with modules)
Yes it can. 1 Complex Kin cat and you amar will sprint at 8 with 200 staminal.LOL.
And the best thing is, you DO have the CPU and PG to equip this easily....
Admittedly though the Amarr are traditionally a slow moving, heavily armoured, long range race. Jack of All Trades is a Minmatar thing. |
KING CHECKMATE
TEAM SATISFACTION
969
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 23:30:00 -
[64] - Quote
@ True Adamance:
What i meant is that our assault suit does a little of everything. XD|
Has good Armor,but not the best
Has good Shield , but not the best
Slow speed
Shield regen of 20, but caldari has more.
Best CPU/PG of all assaults
a Generic bonus, plus an amarr specialized bonus... |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
306
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 01:37:00 -
[65] - Quote
fyi I trained biotics upgrades V yesterday and it makes a noticable difference in speed.
Then again, that difference is even more stark when using other suits :( |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2323
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 01:38:00 -
[66] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:@Zeylon Rho
The speed loss is only -0.03.
>..>
AT biotics Lv 5 the speed difference is undetectable compared to other suits,and i can still run from an objective to the other without having to rest.So stamina = Less time in the open = Less damage.
More specifically, that 30 HP is worth -4% movement/sprint. <==solved with Biotics Lv5, Passive +5%
The speed loss is .2 (.3 sprint) from the Caldari/Gallente, and larger from the Minmatar. You're a decimal place off there. 4% of 5(C/G move) is .2, and 4% of 7 (C/G spring) is .28.
Biotics won't give you a movement speed bonus, and at the point at which we're saying "I have level 5 biotics", the other suits can get that same bonus which means you're only closing a sprint speed gap with people that haven't leveled the skill. They'll still move faster than you. Also, -4% of a base speed then adding 5% bonus to the base isn't the same thing as cancelling the difference. 4.8, 5, and 5.3 are the starting speeds, right? or 6.7, 7, 7.4 sprint. 7.035, 7.35, and 7.77 are the results of adding 5% to the base sprint speeds. Faster base means you're getting (marginally) better boosts out of Biotics with the faster suits.
KING CHECKMATE wrote:
The CPU IS Lower, i think the PG is still higher than the logi.This is because Assault amarrs are designed to carry LAser weaponry,that are indeed very expensive PG wise.
We agree that the bonus is what really holds this suit back. BUT at the same time i apreciate it,i know how good amarr assault are and with another bonus, (Say 2% reload on light weapons for example) it would be the FOTM for sure.
They are designed for this weapons yup. as an amarr soldier i appreciate my suit lets me make the most of amarr weapons. AKA Laser/Scrambler rifles. If people want to use The flavor of the month weapon then go use another suit.
We agree there I guess, and that's fine - if somewhat narrow for the Amarr. I think it goes to the fact that the PG/CPU, slot, and laser bonus are all related, and probably have nothing to do with the armor/hp/speed.
KING CHECKMATE wrote:
Still, the HP trend is clear across the suits:
More HP = slower, Less HP = faster // At level 5 , the amarr suit has 450HP WIthout any modules.You are not THAT slow that cant survive with 850+ EHP at proto level. I run an Amarr assault ADV and have 700 EHP >..>
And a Caldari/Gallente would have 413HP without any modules (assuming we're comparing maxed passives. It's a 30 hp base bonus, and there's no getting around that. With passives you get another 7 hp. You're not THAT slow, but you're slower than the other suits, which is what we're comparing. The issue is specifically, is 30 hp worth a 4% speed hit, because the new armor plate stats suggest they do not believe this to be the case. The case was slightly different prior since a MLT or STD plate had a larger speed hit for much less hp than they do now.
I'm proposing they look at the hp difference more-so than changing the speed penalty, slots, or anything else. This wouldn't necessarily be "just the Amarr Assault", but looking at the speed vs. armor across the suits.
KING CHECKMATE wrote:
So, to re-focus topic, let's say this is about the hp difference and speed difference alone. The hp difference & speed hit are true across all the medium frames (and the scout technically). If armor has been adjusted to have less of a speed hit for more hp, shouldn't the fact the Amarr gets 30 hp for a 4% speed hit be looked at?
4% Speed is to gain a Lot of little advantages. If you compare -4% speed to 30HP, it does seem bad.But its 4% speed for:+30HP,200 stamina(highest of all assaults),a LOT of CPU/Pg,amarr weapon bonus,20 HP shield regen(minnies would love this). SO i think he 4% speed loss is legit. YOu make it sound like Amarr suit is just a Caldari/Gallante with 30 more HP and -4% speed....
This is bearing in mind that the other suit differences can be explained in other ways, and that movement speed is the key factor in strafing and most combat (and can't be compensated for with modules)
Yes it can. 1 Complex Kin cat and you amar will sprint at 8 with 200 staminal.LOL.
And the best thing is, you DO have the CPU and PG to equip this easily....
A complex kinetic cat will only impact your sprint speed. Kinetic catalyzers don't boost your movement speed in the slightest, only your sprint. A lot of the other stuff isn't quite the advantage you make it out to be. 20 hp shield regen is the same as the Gallente, and 5hp/s less than the Caldari. The "advantage" over Minmatar is only 2hp/s (they have 18), and they have passive 1hp/s armor regen anyhow. With respect to Stamina, the fastest suit (Minmatar) can't sprint as long, but that difference tumbles out to less than 5m distance total if the Amarr and Minmatar assault both start sprinting with base stats.
Regardless, I think the issue is more about hp difference vs. speed penalty, and needs to be balanced on that - not the stamina/fitting/etc. |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1480
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 05:04:00 -
[67] - Quote
As far as the bonuses go for the assault suits, the best comparison would be with the gallente assault.
The G. Assault has a fitting bonus to hybrid weaponry letting a suit bring either higher level gear or mods than other suits, provided they bring the AR. this translates into a boost to either the DPS or the EHP, possibly a little of both but only if they bring the only hybrid weapon made for actual combat (snipers don't count).
The Amarr suit lets you pick from two different weapons right now and gives you an almost unbelievable boost in damage output. The extra 25% I can get out of the LR is where I get most of my LR kills as the beam at that point is almost insta kill.
The bonus also lets me fire charge shots on my scrambler without ever overheating. ever. I'm also able to just plain fire more often with it upping my DPS by 25% at least because I'm able to shoot 25% more.
The Amarr skills are arguably better than the Gallente.
It's hard to compare the Amarr skills with the Minmatar as the bonus is for all sidearms, and that's useful but mainly if you are looking to back up a swarm or a sniper or whatever. It seems like they are meant to fill other roles to me.
Compared to the Caldari who get a bonus of an extra 16.5 hp per complex shield extender. at proto level you are getting an extra 80 HP if you stack a full complement of extenders in your high slots.
To me, since I love the scrambler rifle and the LR, the loss of a theoretical 80 HP at prototype is well worth it for the mind boggling increase in DPS. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2325
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Posted - 2013.09.11 07:15:00 -
[68] - Quote
I thought the old Caldari bonus to reload made more sense in that it was weapon-related, and I sort of expect assault bonuses to be about attack.
Supposedly they're reworking suit bonuses in general (since they lacked the coding to make the equipment bonuses on logistics what they wanted originally), but I wouldn't change the laser bonus necessarily. I just wish there was more variety within the scope of the weapons. By that, I mean it'd be nice if there were variants of Laser Rifle and burst/breach or what-not for the scrambler as well. It might also be nice to have a laser SMG, since they're apparently making a hybrid SMG as well (Magsec).
It's also debatable if all assault suits should have a recharge bonus to shields. It's arguably better for shield tankers than, say, a Gallente suit.
At any rate, the laser bonus is nice, it just seems like it'll end up impacting fewer weapons than any "hybrid" bonus would in the long-term. I think the Caldari shield bonus might be a short-term bit until they finish suit re-working. |
Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
149
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 05:18:00 -
[69] - Quote
They do need more hp for the speed hit now, at least, that's what they seem to be saying with the adjust plate stats. I'd keep the laser bonus, but I don't know about the shield bonus.
It seems like there could be another assault bonus that might make more sense. Kinda like, a shield bonus makes more sense for a explicitly shield tanking suits. There's no reason there couldn't be a general "racial" bonus for medium suits (unlocked by the medium frame skills) that is inherited by both logis and assaults, and then two separate bonuses for each suit specialty that are also tailored to the race. |
medomai grey
WarRavens
League of Infamy
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 06:21:00 -
[70] - Quote
Today I was chatting with a corp mate and found out his proto assault suit had 700EHP. This irked me because my hybrid-tanked proto Amarr assault fit only has 600EHP and one of the advantages of running an Amarr suit is that its suppose to have more EHP than other suits in its frame size. |
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Talos Alomar
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1498
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Posted - 2013.09.15 13:56:00 -
[71] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Today I was chatting with a corp mate and found out his proto assault suit had 700EHP. This irked me because my hybrid-tanked proto Amarr assault fit only has 600EHP and one of the advantages of running an Amarr suit is that its suppose to have more EHP than other suits in its frame size.
My protosuit hits around 850 EHP... |
DildoMcnutz
Science For Death
The Shadow Eclipse
188
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 17:24:00 -
[72] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Today I was chatting with a corp mate and found out his proto assault suit had 700EHP. This irked me because my hybrid-tanked proto Amarr assault fit only has 600EHP and one of the advantages of running an Amarr suit is that its suppose to have more EHP than other suits in its frame size.
Are you only running 1 plate? 2 has been best in my experience with 1 complex rep. I don't think any other assault can carry proto light/sidearm/nades whilst having over 800ehp (I don't think anyway, they would run out of pg) which is how my fits look, may even be able to fit a proto hive on there now that I realised you get 5% cpu usage reduction on nanocircuitry. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2378
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Posted - 2013.09.19 10:59:00 -
[73] - Quote
DildoMcnutz wrote:medomai grey wrote:Today I was chatting with a corp mate and found out his proto assault suit had 700EHP. This irked me because my hybrid-tanked proto Amarr assault fit only has 600EHP and one of the advantages of running an Amarr suit is that its suppose to have more EHP than other suits in its frame size. Are you only running 1 plate? 2 has been best in my experience with 1 complex rep. I don't think any other assault can carry proto light/sidearm/nades whilst having over 800ehp (I don't think anyway, they would run out of pg) which is how my fits look, may even be able to fit a proto hive on there now that I realised you get 5% cpu usage reduction on nanocircuitry.
The nanocircuitry bonus is possible a bug left over from chromosome, as they don't seem to be much for having skills explicitly assigned to equipment right now (not a good thing in my opinion).
A better question is if you can run a Proto Scrambler specifically, and have higher ehp than the other assaults. The Amarr PG and bonus seems to be about supporting the laser after all, and if you have to run Duvolles to eek out better fitting (which a Gallente would already have a bonus with), then the fact you can run nice weapons is less relevant.
To the extent that the Amarr can get higher HP now with armor plates, so can the other assaults. You can have a Gallente run Proto weapons and get over 800 ehp as well. The point of this post is addressing the base EHP difference specifically, with respect to the speed differences between suits. |
DildoMcnutz
Science For Death
The Shadow Eclipse
194
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 12:01:00 -
[74] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:DildoMcnutz wrote:medomai grey wrote:Today I was chatting with a corp mate and found out his proto assault suit had 700EHP. This irked me because my hybrid-tanked proto Amarr assault fit only has 600EHP and one of the advantages of running an Amarr suit is that its suppose to have more EHP than other suits in its frame size. Are you only running 1 plate? 2 has been best in my experience with 1 complex rep. I don't think any other assault can carry proto light/sidearm/nades whilst having over 800ehp (I don't think anyway, they would run out of pg) which is how my fits look, may even be able to fit a proto hive on there now that I realised you get 5% cpu usage reduction on nanocircuitry. The nanocircuitry bonus is possible a bug left over from chromosome, as they don't seem to be much for having skills explicitly assigned to equipment right now (not a good thing in my opinion). A better question is if you can run a Proto Scrambler specifically, and have higher ehp than the other assaults. The Amarr PG and bonus seems to be about supporting the laser after all, and if you have to run Duvolles to eek out better fitting (which a Gallente would already have a bonus with), then the fact you can run nice weapons is less relevant. To the extent that the Amarr can get higher HP now with armor plates, so can the other assaults. You can have a Gallente run Proto weapons and get over 800 ehp as well. The point of this post is addressing the base EHP difference specifically, with respect to the speed differences between suits.
You are referring to the Imperial? Yes I can make a fit that is over 800ehp with the imperial with my six kin and core locus, its not my main fitting as I think 2 dmgs mods make the imperial shine, running a duvolle just leaves me with a tonne of pg left over which I could use to get a proto hive rather than an adv or even pull out plates and run kin cats for the lols I guess. To get back on topic I would say that with max skills the suit shouldn't have base hp above 250/250, a total increase of 50hp from what it is now, I think anymore would be unfair or at least unnecessary IMO.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2378
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Posted - 2013.09.19 12:27:00 -
[75] - Quote
I don't necessarily think the hp of the Amarr should be buffed and everything else left the same.
It's more about the concept of them adjusting what the relative value of armor is vs. shields and the speed penalties that are implied there. The Amarr is just the poster child for the issue since they were more specifically flagged as "slower and more hp".
The devs increased the relative amount of hp on armor plates while decreasing speed penalties. For balance issues, this makes me question where the Amarr is at with a 4% speed penalty and 30 more hp (compare to any armor plate), but the relative hp of commandos, Gallente suits, etc. is also worth looking at. It's perhaps even more relevant with respect to the TTK discussions and AA.
A Gallente assault suit's hp is the same as a Caldari, but flipped. One is armor tanked, and one shield tanked. The shield hp are relatively more valuable, as they restore themselves and are harder to get (shield extenders grant less than armor plates). Both suits are the same speed, though even with Ferroscale plates the Gallente would have more hp relatively speaking.
So, it's not just an Amarr suit issue, but it's perhaps more of a concern with the Amarr because they're pushed as "beefier" and in-context your 30hp of beefiness (marginal) is being paid for by a speed penalty that is overly punitive (4%) compared to most armor plates.
I'd keep the speeds the same and just adjust the hp of the suits. It might help TTK issues to some degree (ok, probably not).
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True Adamance
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2118
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 12:39:00 -
[76] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:I don't necessarily think the hp of the Amarr should be buffed and everything else left the same.
It's more about the concept of them adjusting what the relative value of armor is vs. shields and the speed penalties that are implied there. The Amarr is just the poster child for the issue since they were more specifically flagged as "slower and more hp".
The devs increased the relative amount of hp on armor plates while decreasing speed penalties. For balance issues, this makes me question where the Amarr is at with a 4% speed penalty and 30 more hp (compare to any armor plate), but the relative hp of commandos, Gallente suits, etc. is also worth looking at. It's perhaps even more relevant with respect to the TTK discussions and AA.
A Gallente assault suit's hp is the same as a Caldari, but flipped. One is armor tanked, and one shield tanked. The shield hp are relatively more valuable, as they restore themselves and are harder to get (shield extenders grant less than armor plates). Both suits are the same speed, though even with Ferroscale plates the Gallente would have more hp relatively speaking.
So, it's not just an Amarr suit issue, but it's perhaps more of a concern with the Amarr because they're pushed as "beefier" and in-context your 30hp of beefiness (marginal) is being paid for by a speed penalty that is overly punitive (4%) compared to most armor plates.
I'd keep the speeds the same and just adjust the hp of the suits. It might help TTK issues to some degree (ok, probably not).
We should get a rebalancing of Armour vs Shields. Amarr Armour Tank. |
DildoMcnutz
Science For Death
The Shadow Eclipse
194
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 12:42:00 -
[77] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:I don't necessarily think the hp of the Amarr should be buffed and everything else left the same.
It's more about the concept of them adjusting what the relative value of armor is vs. shields and the speed penalties that are implied there. The Amarr is just the poster child for the issue since they were more specifically flagged as "slower and more hp".
The devs increased the relative amount of hp on armor plates while decreasing speed penalties. For balance issues, this makes me question where the Amarr is at with a 4% speed penalty and 30 more hp (compare to any armor plate), but the relative hp of commandos, Gallente suits, etc. is also worth looking at. It's perhaps even more relevant with respect to the TTK discussions and AA.
A Gallente assault suit's hp is the same as a Caldari, but flipped. One is armor tanked, and one shield tanked. The shield hp are relatively more valuable, as they restore themselves and are harder to get (shield extenders grant less than armor plates). Both suits are the same speed, though even with Ferroscale plates the Gallente would have more hp relatively speaking.
So, it's not just an Amarr suit issue, but it's perhaps more of a concern with the Amarr because they're pushed as "beefier" and in-context your 30hp of beefiness (marginal) is being paid for by a speed penalty that is overly punitive (4%) compared to most armor plates.
I'd keep the speeds the same and just adjust the hp of the suits. It might help TTK issues to some degree (ok, probably not).
We should get a rebalancing of Armour vs Shields. Amarr Armour Tank.
CCP stated that the Amarr infantry don't follow the same conventions as the ships in eve iirc, I think they want them to be the hybrid tanks. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2378
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Posted - 2013.09.19 12:46:00 -
[78] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:I don't necessarily think the hp of the Amarr should be buffed and everything else left the same.
It's more about the concept of them adjusting what the relative value of armor is vs. shields and the speed penalties that are implied there. The Amarr is just the poster child for the issue since they were more specifically flagged as "slower and more hp".
The devs increased the relative amount of hp on armor plates while decreasing speed penalties. For balance issues, this makes me question where the Amarr is at with a 4% speed penalty and 30 more hp (compare to any armor plate), but the relative hp of commandos, Gallente suits, etc. is also worth looking at. It's perhaps even more relevant with respect to the TTK discussions and AA.
A Gallente assault suit's hp is the same as a Caldari, but flipped. One is armor tanked, and one shield tanked. The shield hp are relatively more valuable, as they restore themselves and are harder to get (shield extenders grant less than armor plates). Both suits are the same speed, though even with Ferroscale plates the Gallente would have more hp relatively speaking.
So, it's not just an Amarr suit issue, but it's perhaps more of a concern with the Amarr because they're pushed as "beefier" and in-context your 30hp of beefiness (marginal) is being paid for by a speed penalty that is overly punitive (4%) compared to most armor plates.
I'd keep the speeds the same and just adjust the hp of the suits. It might help TTK issues to some degree (ok, probably not).
We should get a rebalancing of Armour vs Shields. Amarr Armour Tank.
Right. They need to look at all the hp values again, vs. the speed hits they're giving them , etc. I think they can do that without drastically changing the other suit stats.
The speed stat specifically gets a bit iffy since with the current set of speed penalties, a theoretical Amarr scout would be as fast as a Minmatar assault, and I think they should consider where they want those speed tiers going forward - as any hp bonus they gave the Amarr Scout would be unlikely to match a Minmatar assault in hp, slots, etc.
That's not there yet though, and adjusting hp would be enough for balancing in the short term.
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Talos Alomar
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Posted - 2013.09.19 15:15:00 -
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True Adamance wrote:
We should get a rebalancing of Armour vs Shields. Amarr Armour Tank.
You can call the Amarr an armor tanking suit right now.
On an advanced suit try running complex plate and a complex repper with dual damage mods.
It's the only suit with the PG do that AND bring a SCR and a scanner.
The decent shield that the amarr have naturally is enough to protect your armor while it gets repped so you'll be back in action faster than a gallente armor tank and you'll be tossing out OHK's like you won't believe.
Oddly enough; hybrid tank = best armor tank. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.09.20 08:04:00 -
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I'd be fine with making Amarr more "armor-focused", or what have you. There's no focus to the tanking at the moment beyond slots for the most part, which means ALL assaults/logis hybrid tank pretty well. The would be shield-tankers have better base-stats for that with respect to recharge rates, etc, but everyone can slap on plates/reppers and achieve the same effect more or less.
This means the "shield-tankers" have naturally better shield tanking ability, but everyone armor tanks about the same, since there's no advantage beyond slot capacity there.
That's slightly different than the subject of the OP, but giving consideration to how some suits might be able to favor armor tanking (if that's their intent) might be wise - as stats are already shuffled up for shield compatibility before you even begin to skill into it. |
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Jack McReady
DUST University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2013.09.20 08:37:00 -
[81] - Quote
padraic darby wrote:that hitpoint advantige means they can tank one more ar round than every one else
the hitpoint advantage is only on unfitted suits? do you run unfitted suits into combat? there is no hitpoint advantage when other suits can fit one more plate or extender  in fact, all other suits get more EHP.
Fizzer94 wrote:Amarr Logi here. My suit is fine. Don't buff it. I would go so far as to say its the most balanced suit in the game.
Now that I think about it, its also likely the most versatile suit as well. It is great for AV(probably the best swarm launcher suit), and being an Assault Logi that actually isn't better at being an Assault than Assaults, and being just a Logi.
it is also slow as a turtle. fully fitted you rival heavies in being slow but you arent actually as tough as one and you usually wont waste a slot on a speed mod because you would get less HP than assaults (which you dont want actually)
DildoMcnutz wrote:Whilst the 30hp extra may not be worth the speed loss I don't think it needs an extra slot because it has an absurd amount of cpu/pg in comparison to the other suits. This basically equates to the other suits needing to run a fitting mod to keep up with it bringing them down to 6 total slots like the Amarr suit.
1 complex extender
2 complex damage or 2 more extenders
2 enhanced plates
1 complex repper
duvolle
six kin
core locus
k-2
Now im more than positive than no amount of core skills or cpu/pg reduction skills will allow you to fit that onto another assault without a fitting mod, hell I think you would probably need a cpu and pg upgrade cause that basically maxes my 453 cpu and 92 pg and the other medium suits cant touch that.
fit complex plate instead and exchange the second one into a stamina mod and enjoy 44s sprint time and endless bunny hopping in combat  |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.09.24 22:02:00 -
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Wharrgarbl |
low genius
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Renegade Alliance
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Posted - 2013.09.25 00:08:00 -
[83] - Quote
i'd take either a low or a high in trade for that 30 hp |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.09.26 02:12:00 -
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It's probably more realistic to just adjust the hp of the suits and leave speed, etc. the same. |
KING CHECKMATE
TEAM SATISFACTION
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Posted - 2013.09.26 02:19:00 -
[85] - Quote
LEAVE THIS THREAD DIE.
For gods sake the Amarr Dropsuits are FINE.Actually they are the best...
If you buff them,they become OP.
NO
/End thread |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.09.26 03:04:00 -
[86] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:LEAVE THIS THREAD DIE.
For gods sake the Amarr Dropsuits are FINE.Actually they are the best...
If you buff them,they become OP.
NO
/End thread
Proved you wrong earlier, you have no grasp of what the stats even mean.
/hopefully-end-of-your-unhelpful-comments |
Talos Alomar
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Posted - 2013.09.26 05:11:00 -
[87] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:KING CHECKMATE wrote:LEAVE THIS THREAD DIE.
For gods sake the Amarr Dropsuits are FINE.Actually they are the best...
If you buff them,they become OP.
NO
/End thread Proved you wrong earlier, you have no grasp of what the stats even mean. /hopefully-end-of-your-unhelpful-comments
While I wouldn't say no to a buff of my favorite suit, the assloads of extra cpu and PG really make a difference. So while there are fewer slots to play with you can actually do more with those slots. I'd say that after considerable testing I'm happy with the trade off of losing a mod slot for the extra cpu/pg.
And looking at the trade off of having a small buff in hp for a slower move speed I'm rather happy with that as well.
comparing the slowest suit with the fastest suit you'll notice the Amarr suit has a 10% slower speed than the Minmatar suit. The Amarr suit has 20% more health though - and the amarr suit is 4% slower with 9% more total health.
Then you look at the type of health that the amarr suit has. It has both good shields and armor. This means it has no natural weaknesses, like the caldari v.s. emp or the gallente v.s lasers or the minnies v.s a strong breeze.
Having a good hybrid tank means that not only do you naturally have a higher EHP, you will regain HP to be able to get back into the brawl much faster between fights due to the fact you have two suit systems working at the same time as your suit will be recharging and your armor mods will be constantly plugging away.
Everything said and done I'm happy with my suit.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.09.26 11:12:00 -
[88] - Quote
I think my desire for altering anything to do with the slot has waned, as the PG/CPU difference seems tooled to compensate for that somewhat (that, and carrying lasers).
The suit is built to carry the hardest-to-fit weapon available in the game, and you're encouraged to do so by the bonuses you're given that are specific to it and the laser rifle. They're aware the the fitting can be used for "non-laser" purposes, so they dock you a slot.
The trade-off is slightly different for a logistics, because instead of laser bonuses they get a sidearm. Their fitting is also not "as-good", but they play with a different set of trade-off in light of being "the assault logi".
The heavy has no basis for comparison slot or cpu-wise racially.
The hp difference is more a matter of armor/shielding rebalance, which impacts all suits. I think the stat changes to armor plates imply they looked at the armor values relative to shields and realized that armor-tanking wasn't quite as valuable in practice compared to movement.
I think the plate changes were positive for the most part, though somewhat overshadowed in light of the AA/hit-detection changes. Tons of people are rocking armor plates now, though I think dual-tanking is more of a rule for most suits as opposed to either/or (it's hardly an Amarr-specific practice).
As an aside, the reactive plate (and ferroscale to a lesser extent) stats are still horrible and ultimately undesirable next to actual plates. This is true even on Amarr suits that have a shortage of slots on the lower end (zero at MLT, 1 at STD).
So, completely aside from fitting, laser bonuses, and slots - I feel suit hp need another look as suit base-stats are also a reflection of how armor/shield balance works in the game. The Amarr is a meaningful example, since their speed hit is at least nominally explained by their being a "heavier" suit, and in light of the plate changes, the 4% speed hit is large for a 30hp difference. That's not to say I want to speed hit removed, just that the hp of ALL the suits may need to be adjusted with the different armor/shield paradigm in place.
For example, the Caldari and Gallente have identical Ehp and speed despite one being an armor tanker. The shield hp on the Caldari suit at base is unequivocally "more valuable" or harder to come by than the armor hp on the Gallente - this is reflected directly in the hp values of the modules you can put on your suits. It's also seen in the fact the shield hp will restore itself, while the armor hp will not. It also holds true even comparing newer ferroscale plates (to account for the lack of speed difference).
So, is having the exact same hp on the two suits balanced? Given the differences between shield and armor, would it not make more sense to have more on the armor-tank suit, given the relative value of the hp? Even using the not-great ferroscale stats would give a slight hp edge to the Gallente (very slight).
The health difference comparison with the Minmatar isn't particularly great either, it's a 10% speed hit for 75hp. It sort of leaves the arena of direct comparison as a 10% hit is now the same as TWO complex plates and 270 hp as far as gear goes, but also you wouldn't expect a suit to either take the drawback of two complex mods or receive that much of a benefit.
I think 2x 85hp (the current state of a 4% hit) would be too much of a bonus. So would the hp of an enhanced or complex plate really (110 or 135 for 3%/5%).
You can't look at the stats in a vacuum either, it would be a bit off to only adjust the Amarr suit. Ballpark though, I was thinking something along the lines of 30-40 more base hp on the Amarr, and keep the speed penalty as-is. Probably something like 15-20 more to the gallente.
This would make for a difference of about 60hp with the caldari, but around 40hp-ish difference with the Gallente for the same speed hit (4%) as is current. That would still be less than the hp of a basic armor plate (85) with twice the speed hit (2%).
I've been trying to avoid concrete specifics on numbers because I kinda assumed they'd be redoing ALL the hp after they got around to the armor rebalance, and I was surprised that this wasn't the case. Some amount of the advantage of movement seems to have been lost with the AA being where it is too though. |
Arc-08
Horizons' Edge
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Posted - 2013.09.26 11:16:00 -
[89] - Quote
I actually thought that Amar had that slight bonus because they aren't supposed to be like amar heavies and be tanks, they are supposed to equip damage mods, and be a true damage based assault, instead of armor/shield based. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.09.26 11:35:00 -
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Arc-08 wrote:I actually thought that Amar had that slight bonus because they aren't supposed to be like amar heavies and be tanks, they are supposed to equip damage mods, and be a true damage based assault, instead of armor/shield based.
Well the "bonus" tends to largely evaporate if you're actually using scramblers, and you have less slots to work with as well. The damage mods themselves are very very similar in cost to shield extenders.
That may be a design flaw on CCP's end, or that might be versatility as they see it. Currently anyway, there's definitely no drawback to fitting either, as they're functionally swappable. This cuts both ways of course. Most assaults of any race will tell you dual-tanking is the way to go. Caldari Logis, Minmatar Assaults, etc. - most people with the SP will dual tank. Caldari Assaults have only had a shield bonus for the past month mind you, they used to have a weapon bonus as well.
The caveat is you normally get "enough" hp from basic (or enhanced) plates (85 hp, 2%), and blowing extra CPU/PG and speed for the complex plate isn't always done (135 hp, 5% penalty). |
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