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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Enkidu Camuel
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
115
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Posted - 2013.08.16 00:57:00 -
[211] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:Better armor -> more armor tanked suits -> more explosives -> mass driver nerf in 1.6 -> AR is once again the best possible weapon in all situations
True, but it's obvious that everyone here is ignoring the Minmatar Combat Rifle which is soon to be released (I hope in 1.4) the Combat Rifle is the Minmatar version of the Scrambler Rifle , but instead of cutting shields like butter it will destroy armors with its armor damage bonus... so imagine this: Prototype Combat Rifle + maxed proficiency + one or two damage mods.
So what explosives you need when you will be able to shred a heavy or any armor suit in seconds from a safe distance with faster DPS? oh also you will be able to deal decent damage to shields with high prof and damage mods. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
209
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Posted - 2013.08.16 09:34:00 -
[212] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:
-Shield repair is 2-3 times larger than armor repair. -There are 12 weapons to kill armor, only 9 to kill shields. From that 12 you will find the most powerful weapons in the game, this includes the forge gun, locus grenades, the mass driver, and the HMG. -Armor has a rep tool, shields have a rep vehicle. -Armor makes you slower (already mentioned) but there is a bucket load of disadvantages that come from being slower. -Shield tanking has modules on high and low -Shield tanking does not have to compromise their tank to use CPU/PG modules, while armor tanking is extremely resource intensive, talk about the 1-2 hit combo. -Shield tanking there a 30% damage reduction against explosives. -Armor tanking gets a 10-20% damage reduction against some rifles. -Armor gets higher HP. -When shields drop you don't die, when armor drops you die.
Let's sum it up: Shields- 9 Armor- 5
This is just wrong on many things.
-First off there is 6v6 weapons for shields and armor after you remove what kills both (REs) and what has not been added yet. Check out the weapon ranges dev blog and count them yourself. Remember to remove things like swarms as they cannot target dsuits and this is not a vehicle debate. -Armor has rep tool AND triage hives... shields have nothing. -With the changes proposed armor penalty will be easily negated with 1, SERIOUSLY 1, KinCat. The movement penalty is minimal now. -Shields do have a low mod but no equipment (armor gets 2) plus there is only 1 kind of extender that is worth anything, armor gets 9...all being useful. -Shields are resource intensive as well but do get CPU/PG enhancers so advantage shields, we'll see how the penalty plays out. -Explosives are supposed to be 120% to armor 80% to shields, check out the weapon ranges Dev Blog, the fact that it is not is a known bug. -Lasers are 120% Shields 80% armor, there are more Lasers than Explosive weapons after removing REs and swarms (seriously check out the Dev Blog) -Armor gets more HP at all levels (even standard vs Pro shield) -Shields don't have that buffer in front like armor does, plus 0 Armor does not mean death if shields are recharging.
This is a pendulum shift not balance. I'm glad for a change but it all will just be fixed again in 3-6 months once shields start falling away. Shields will be the minority soon, which is fine, Armor fought that fight for ages. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1081
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Posted - 2013.08.16 12:42:00 -
[213] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:
-Shield repair is 2-3 times larger than armor repair. -There are 12 weapons to kill armor, only 9 to kill shields. From that 12 you will find the most powerful weapons in the game, this includes the forge gun, locus grenades, the mass driver, and the HMG. -Armor has a rep tool, shields have a rep vehicle. -Armor makes you slower (already mentioned) but there is a bucket load of disadvantages that come from being slower. -Shield tanking has modules on high and low -Shield tanking does not have to compromise their tank to use CPU/PG modules, while armor tanking is extremely resource intensive, talk about the 1-2 hit combo. -Shield tanking there a 30% damage reduction against explosives. -Armor tanking gets a 10-20% damage reduction against some rifles. -Armor gets higher HP. -When shields drop you don't die, when armor drops you die.
Let's sum it up: Shields- 9 Armor- 5
This is just wrong on many things. -First off there is 6v6 weapons for shields and armor after you remove what kills both (REs) and what has not been added yet. Check out the weapon ranges dev blog and count them yourself. Remember to remove things like swarms as they cannot target dsuits and this is not a vehicle debate. -Armor has rep tool AND triage hives... shields have nothing. -With the changes proposed armor penalty will be easily negated with 1, SERIOUSLY 1, KinCat. The movement penalty is minimal now. -Shields do have a low mod but no equipment (armor gets 2) plus there is only 1 kind of extender that is worth anything, armor gets 9...all being useful. -Shields are resource intensive as well but do get CPU/PG enhancers so advantage shields, we'll see how the penalty plays out. -Explosives are supposed to be 120% to armor 80% to shields, check out the weapon ranges Dev Blog, the fact that it is not is a known bug. -Lasers are 120% Shields 80% armor, there are more Lasers than Explosive weapons after removing REs and swarms (seriously check out the Dev Blog) -Armor gets more HP at all levels (even standard vs Pro shield) -Shields don't have that buffer in front like armor does, plus 0 Armor does not mean death if shields are recharging. This is a pendulum shift not balance. I'm glad for a change but it all will just be fixed again in 3-6 months once shields start falling away. Shields will be the minority soon, which is fine, Armor fought that fight for ages.
- I removed REs and Swarms... If I added REs and Swarms it would be 14, but REs kill everything and Swarms don't kill infantry therefore 12, if you count it is 11 but I added locus grenades. - Once the vehicles are fixed you get the shield transporter, which can be used on yourself if you do it right. - Kinetic Catalyzer only affects sprint speed, the movement penalty is not minimal, it is less penalizing but not minimal. - Well until this bug is fixed, which CCP says it doesn't exist because last time I checked they said explosives are working as intended, it is an advantage to shields. - Laser weapons do not do burst damage, in fact there are no anti shield weapons that do burst damage. Except the Rail gun installation. - If you were to take the resistances of shield, and the resistances of armor and convert them into a numerical HP value you would see that shields have a lot more HP than what you can see. - Most armor tankers have a very low shield buffer to begin with, and when the shield delay bug is fixed 0 armor will mean death.
Shields will not be the minority when all of the weapons roll out. If anything armor is still going to be weak against shields until we get racial bonuses for them. I have been building shield and armor suits with a fitting tool and shields suits still get more EHP than armor suits when using the same amount of modules, although the HP difference is a lot smaller around 30-60 HP (keep in mind that shields are still more resistant to damage to they still get more HP than what we can see) per role variant, and a speed difference of 2.5-7% between shield suits and armor suits. |
Interplanetary Insanitarium
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
136
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Posted - 2013.08.16 18:26:00 -
[214] - Quote
So, I didn't feel like reading all of the posts, but I searched for "heavy turning speed" and was led to this thread.
My question is: Does the movement penalty from the armor plates count towards turning speed?
I'm asking because it's a little frustrating not being able to track opponents in CQC even without armor plates when that's really all I'm good for unless I decide to forge "snipe".
And I don't mind not being able to out run opponents, but last night I'd run into people using shotguns and they'd just run right past me only to turn around and kill me before I could turn around. |
zzZaXxx
The Exemplars Top Men.
184
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 18:26:00 -
[215] - Quote
Quick question for the Wolfman:
Will Kinetic Catalyzers increase strafe speed due to the fact that strafe speed will be 90% of sprint speed? |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy
577
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 18:30:00 -
[216] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote: Will Kinetic Catalyzers increase strafe speed due to the fact that strafe speed will be 90% of sprint speed?
CCP Wolfman wrote: ... 90% of the max run (not sprint) speed of the dropsuit you are using.
Run Speed =/= Sprint Speed, ergo KinCats will not affect strafe speed. |
Interplanetary Insanitarium
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
136
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 18:34:00 -
[217] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:zzZaXxx wrote: Will Kinetic Catalyzers increase strafe speed due to the fact that strafe speed will be 90% of sprint speed?
Run Speed =/= Sprint Speed
Lol, if that weren't the case all the dedicated heavies would either quit or ask for respec to become medium suits. |
zzZaXxx
The Exemplars Top Men.
184
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 19:15:00 -
[218] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:zzZaXxx wrote: Will Kinetic Catalyzers increase strafe speed due to the fact that strafe speed will be 90% of sprint speed?
CCP Wolfman wrote: ... 90% of the max run (not sprint) speed of the dropsuit you are using.
Run Speed =/= Sprint Speed, ergo KinCats will not affect strafe speed.
So run speed means movement speed? |
Interplanetary Insanitarium
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
137
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 19:17:00 -
[219] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:Shotty GoBang wrote:zzZaXxx wrote: Will Kinetic Catalyzers increase strafe speed due to the fact that strafe speed will be 90% of sprint speed?
CCP Wolfman wrote: ... 90% of the max run (not sprint) speed of the dropsuit you are using.
Run Speed =/= Sprint Speed, ergo KinCats will not affect strafe speed. So run speed means movement speed?
Yeah, it's not like anyone but Heavies are taking a stroll around the battlefield. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy
577
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 19:50:00 -
[220] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:Shotty GoBang wrote:zzZaXxx wrote: Will Kinetic Catalyzers increase strafe speed due to the fact that strafe speed will be 90% of sprint speed?
CCP Wolfman wrote: ... 90% of the max run (not sprint) speed of the dropsuit you are using.
Run Speed =/= Sprint Speed, ergo KinCats will not affect strafe speed. So run speed means movement speed?
Methinks "movement speed" in this context is overly broad, as there are different degrees of movement speed.
A DS3 user (like me) either sprints when he clicks sprint or "moves" at a speed determined by degree of analog stick displacement. Wolfman's run speed -- I'm assuming -- is reached when the analog stick is maxed out but sprint has not been engaged.
No idea how this translates to KB/M, as keyboard keys generally aren't pressure sensitive. Do KB/M users always move at run speed unless sprinting? |
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1493
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 20:19:00 -
[221] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Let me go over a few things first.
I am an armor tanker, and as much as this makes me squeal with joy, I have to warn you guys about some things that you might have overlooked.
First of all, I think that the double buff is not a good idea. All the plates really needed were a decrease in the speed penalty. With the extra armor on top of that, it might turn disastrous. This is because with the lower speed penalty, it means that using complex plates is now a viable option (before, the speed penalty was too great for the complex plates to actually be worthwhile).
Second, Ferroscale plates might be better, but the cpu/pg cost still makes them worthless compared to the new basic plates. For instance, why would you use a 35hp ferroscale when you can equip an 80hp basic plate that uses up barely any pg/cpu, at the cost of only a 2% movement penalty. Just a thought.
Third, with this update, shields will not need any added penalties. In fact, I suggest you guys increase the enhanced shield extender to 44 to make it more in line with the new reactive plates values as currently only complex extenders are the way to go. ________________________
On a positive note, this is a great update for sentinels and armor tankers! The biggest issue with armor, like I mentioned before, is that the more armor you had, the faster you were killed. This was because the movement speed penalty was too much, especially for heavies. The faster you can move in this game, the more bullets you can dodge...so slow moving targets could be taken down easily.
With this update, a heavy can have 1100 armor, with another 500 shield on top for a total EHP of 1600! Gallente logi's can have 950 armor
I'm definitely excited. And the best part is that everyone will skill into armor now so that my mass driver can chew through even more players! (On the other hand, the mass driver might become less effective against good armor tankers)
Mostly yes but with a quick example of no.
When looking at these changes with the explosive profile change included it does seem unlikely that shields will need a drawback but only time will tell, good move there on CCPs part testing before adding that mechanic.
In general I agree with your assessments above I-Shayz-I but your first point I have to dissent on. I've long held that a mild increase to the TTK (if focused on via fits) would be a positive step in game and that raw HP needs to be the core advantage of armor but that the speed penalty would have to be scaled back before even that buffer increase was going to prove useful.
Personally I'd have raised the buffer more and lowered the speed reduction less but I think this way works too. All in all these seem like positive changes even with the double buff. Ideally armor and shields should both be meaningful enough that players start to take note of the damage profiles on weapons and include that in their tactical play and team work. A higher potential TTK is also valuable in specializing fits, because it heightens the desirability of damage mods as well as the validity of heavy and hybrid tanking. It's hard to be sure only looking at numbers but as far as untested assessments go I think this one is a good starting place for the change.
0.02 ISK Cross |
jace silencerww
D3M3NT3D M1NDZ
5
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Posted - 2013.08.16 21:00:00 -
[222] - Quote
well this stinks for snipers. 1600 heavies lol even on a caldari logi with 5 complex damage mods (roughly 20-30%, 30% in this case) and maxed sniper rifle proficincy(15%) with a headshot (175%) with a Thale TAR-07 (355.3damage) = max damage (994.84) on these new heavies means two headshots to kill or a headshot and 2 body hits to kill. lol then a sniper range is on avg 350-450m. snipers are screwed lol ok 2-3 shots on a heavies are ok but now 2-3 shot a logis is just Funny. snipers need more range if we have to 2-3 shot 2-4 people but it will be 4-5 shot with the other proto sniper rfles not including the charge but the charge is a stupid sniper rifle why ccp has it is beyond me. it is the odd & only sniper rifle that charges if there were others then fine but why has it to begin with. |
General Erick
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
61
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 21:28:00 -
[223] - Quote
Can I hug you? |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1875
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 00:20:00 -
[224] - Quote
So, are they changing MLT armor plates as well? I forgot to ask him that. |
Interplanetary Insanitarium
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
146
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 00:30:00 -
[225] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:So, are they changing MLT armor plates as well? I forgot to ask him that.
I think yes?
Unless they're keeping the MLT plates whatever they are now and bumping up the basic to 85, then 110 and 135(?) for enhanced and complex respectively.
But yeah right now the basic lates are the same as MLT just with decreased pg/cpu requirements.... sooooo it could go either way... like a bisexual. |
Interplanetary Insanitarium
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
146
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 00:31:00 -
[226] - Quote
General Erick wrote:Can I hug you?
As long as you don't get a chub. |
medomai grey
WarRavens League of Infamy
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 04:24:00 -
[227] - Quote
In regards to:
Faster Strafing Speeds - The controller using player base enjoys not being able to track opponents simply moving side to side? Dust is full of masochist apparently.
Buffing Infantry Armor Tanking - Awesome. But the Gallente will still complain. Why you ask? Because they're Gallente and they don't know how to use their own gear.
Adding Penalties to Shield Extenders - Makes no sense unless shield extenders were getting buffed to give around the same HP as armor plates or ferroscale plates were removed from the game. The ferroscale plates are like the current shield extenders; they both give a modest boost in HP with no penalties. Just adding a penalty to shield extenders and doing nothing else would make shield tanking inferior to armor tanking; not balanced.
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Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
457
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 05:22:00 -
[228] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Adding Penalties to Shield Extenders - Makes no sense unless shield extenders were getting buffed to give around the same HP as armor plates or ferroscale plates were removed from the game. The ferroscale plates are like the current shield extenders; they both give a modest boost in HP with no penalties. Just adding a penalty to shield extenders and doing nothing else would make shield tanking inferior to armor tanking; not balanced.
Where does that leave armor tankers who have all the penalties? No inert armor repair like shield regen, heavy speed penalties, and the farther up the mod tier tree you go the higher the speed penalty to armor gain ratio. Shields never had a penalty, EVER. Theres obsolutely no negatives for stacking 4 complex shield extenders.
How is ferroscale even closely compareable to shields? When they add in 5 armor repair with every ferroscale plate, THEN you can start comparing them to shield's default 20 hp shield regen. Ferroscale arent meant for armor tankers, but for those who want a little extra armor buffer without any speed penalties, scouts and shield tankers like them. Did I mention the fitting requirement for those mods?
Both needed their pros and cons, armor didnt have enough pros to warrant their cons hence the buff in 1.4 My guess as to why they're considering adding a penalty to shield ext is that they thought of two possible solutions to fix the shield and armor imbalance, 1) Buff armor OR 2) Add penalty to stacking shields They felt the former was the better solution and if need be, the latter will be included which I dont think would be necessary with these new numbers.
Stacking complex shields is a no brainer. Stacking armors takes careful consideration. Thats where the differences start. |
zzZaXxx
The Exemplars Top Men.
185
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 06:17:00 -
[229] - Quote
There's no variation for KBM. It's just stop go. Not sure about he smoothing. Well see about that aiming soon. Life might be getting harder for KBM folks. |
vato LOKO1991
LATINOS KILLERS CORP Amenaza Inminente
0
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Posted - 2013.08.17 10:19:00 -
[230] - Quote
The most benefit is gonna go to the heavy amar obvious reasons and since you reduce a couple of the abilities on the caldari suit i dont see how making a amar stronger is fair if you got complains about the caldari been too strong you will see even more complains when people realize how much stronger the amar ia gonna becomr
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INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC
TYRANNY of EVIL MEN
21
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Posted - 2013.08.17 16:50:00 -
[231] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Pandora Mars wrote:Don't misunderstand, I'm happy with better Armor plates, but...
... I thought Plates give you more HP because they slow you down also.
A STD Plate gives you more HP than a PRO Extender. (Armor-Shield 1-0)
Armor needs a Repper (1-1)
Reppers work constantly while Shield is delayed (2-1)
Armor slows you down (2-2)
Shield extenders penalties... WHY EXACTLY? Because there's absolutely no disadvantage to using them. You can stack 4 of them together and you don't get penalized. However, armor plating requires you to sacrifice movement speed. Honestly, I still think it would be better to have the plates affect acceleration, so you just take a little longer to reach full movement speed, but this is nice too. Does a single tier 1 grenade called a flux wiping all my shields count as a disadvantage? How about RECHARGE DELAY would that be a disadvantage? How about less hp per module, would that be considered a disadvantage? The reason these people do not get the way these things balance is because this isn't about shields vs armor its baddys and fail hards vs decent fps players and its never going to change. |
Patrick57
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
46
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Posted - 2013.08.17 17:29:00 -
[232] - Quote
Pandora Mars wrote:Don't misunderstand, I'm happy with better Armor plates, but...
... I thought Plates give you more HP because they slow you down also.
A STD Plate gives you more HP than a PRO Extender. (Armor-Shield 1-0)
Armor needs a Repper (1-1)
Reppers work constantly while Shield is delayed (2-1)
Armor slows you down (2-2)
Shield extenders penalties... WHY EXACTLY? Armor reppers probably work constantly because they take up a mod slot. However, shield reppers come on all suits and do not take up a mod slot. So 1-2. |
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC
TYRANNY of EVIL MEN
21
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Posted - 2013.08.17 20:38:00 -
[233] - Quote
Patrick57 wrote:Pandora Mars wrote:Don't misunderstand, I'm happy with better Armor plates, but...
... I thought Plates give you more HP because they slow you down also.
A STD Plate gives you more HP than a PRO Extender. (Armor-Shield 1-0)
Armor needs a Repper (1-1)
Reppers work constantly while Shield is delayed (2-1)
Armor slows you down (2-2)
Shield extenders penalties... WHY EXACTLY? Armor reppers probably work constantly because they take up a mod slot. However, shield reppers come on all suits and do not take up a mod slot. So 1-2. This is wrong, logi have built in reppers, they work all the time...... |
gargantuise aaron
Sanguine Knights
67
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Posted - 2013.08.17 20:52:00 -
[234] - Quote
Penalize extenders? Nerf flux grenade |
wripple
WarRavens League of Infamy
13
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Posted - 2013.08.18 20:34:00 -
[235] - Quote
Can we please fix hit detection before we buff strafe speed? |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1116
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Posted - 2013.08.18 23:23:00 -
[236] - Quote
wripple wrote:Can we please fix hit detection before we buff strafe speed?
Strafe is being nerfed please read... Also hit detection and aiming all of that is being "fixed" in 1.4 |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1116
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 23:25:00 -
[237] - Quote
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote:Patrick57 wrote:Pandora Mars wrote:Don't misunderstand, I'm happy with better Armor plates, but...
... I thought Plates give you more HP because they slow you down also.
A STD Plate gives you more HP than a PRO Extender. (Armor-Shield 1-0)
Armor needs a Repper (1-1)
Reppers work constantly while Shield is delayed (2-1)
Armor slows you down (2-2)
Shield extenders penalties... WHY EXACTLY? Armor reppers probably work constantly because they take up a mod slot. However, shield reppers come on all suits and do not take up a mod slot. So 1-2. This is wrong, logi have built in reppers, they work all the time......
And Logi suits are the only good*** armor tankers because of this, all suits should get a passive armor repair except the Caldari. |
Deluxe Edition
TeamPlayers EoN.
715
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 00:46:00 -
[238] - Quote
this will not end well. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1119
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 00:48:00 -
[239] - Quote
Deluxe Edition wrote:this will not end well.
It might and it might not, it depends if CCP does any dropsuit changes also. And if they do any changes to dual tanking. |
General Erick
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
61
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Posted - 2013.08.19 02:35:00 -
[240] - Quote
Interplanetary Insanitarium wrote:General Erick wrote:Can I hug you? As long as you don't get a chub. Too late |
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