Shield delay is easy to make negligable (3-2)

you can flux shields (3-3)

A lot more weapons are anti-armor (4-3)

shield reps cost no fitting (5-3)

Native shield rep speed is > most armor rep speed (6-3)

Don't misunderstand, I'm happy with better Armor plates, but...

... I thought Plates give you more HP because they slow you down also.

A STD Plate gives you more HP than a PRO Extender. (Armor-Shield 1-0)

Armor needs a Repper (1-1)

Reppers work constantly while Shield is delayed (2-1)

Armor slows you down (2-2)

Shield extenders penalties... WHY EXACTLY?

Although im happy for armor, can't wait to see the changes on the field... Shield regen is the only thing caldarI has and shouldn't be touched ....

If you can't kill a Caldari player before their shields start to regen (especially if fluxed, or depleted by a Scram) you're bad and shouldn't play shooters...

Would be a complete mistake to give shields a penalty CCP...

The answer there would be to tweak all of the racial bonuses. Make shield regen penalty -10% per level for caldari assaults. All racial bonuses seem to basically save/give about .75 to 1 whole extra slots worth of bonus if you use them correctly on a proto suit.

I appreciate the buffs; I do. I don't mean to sound ungrateful.

But it's a buff to the numbers of a fundamentally imbalanced number set.

Shield extenders, leaving the regeneration bonuses aside for now, follow a progression that heavily incentivises using higher grade extenders.

Basic: 22hp for 18cpu/3pg
Enhanced: 33hp for 36/6
Complex: 66hp for 54/11

shield graph (note the big kick at complex)

So, the grid benefits hover around 6HP per point of powergrid, or about 1.2hp per point of CPU required.

Plates, on the other hand, are seriously out of whack and will strongly discourage higher-level plates.

Basic: 65 85 for 10/1
Enhanced: 87 110 for 20/6
Complex: 115 135 for 30/12

armor graph

So the benefits are 85hp per grid at basic down to 11.25hp per unit of PG at complex, or 8.5hp down to 4.5hp per unit of CPU.

(you could also view it by how much CPU and PG used to achieve 1HP; either way)

The numbers clearly show that basic plates are way too much bang for the buck, which papers over any deeper problems with armour tanking by the expedient "here, have an OP module instead".

What's worse is that this module is easily available to shield suits as well, which defeats the purpose of the buff anyway, since it's trivially easy to scrounge up 10cpu+1pg for a massive boost in EHP.

And to cap it off, the speed penalty increases as you choose larger plates, which further exacerbates the problems inherent in actually going all in with armour tanking.

My solution is to rework the base numbers of armour plates, with the guideline being to provide 18hp for every point of PG required, and about 5hp per point of CPU, but to increase the bonus as the modules increase to incentivise using heavier plates.

Something like this:

Sponk's proposed armor graph

Basic: 85 for 10/1 50 for 10/3/-2%
Enhanced: 110 for 20/6 95 for 20/6/-3%
Complex: 135 for 30/12 180 for 40/11/-5%

And armour tankers have to stuff all of their tank mods into low slots so they have to sacrifice buffer for regen or vice versa.

Right now I'm worried about my energy weapons. Hopefully CCP will be keeping a close watch to see if the increase in 150 hp plates on the field start making them ineffective.

I had a feeling one of your kind would show up.
They specifically said that they would only do that nerf (and it's not a huge nerf anyway, though it depends on the numbers) IF the armour buffs weren't sufficient.
And I have a feeling they will be.

Noticed a few people ask this. This is not intended, we will check on it :-)

Wolfman, a quick note here on Ferroscale Plates. Now that movement penalties on armor plates have been reduced, while both plates have been given more hp, the benefit of ferroscale plates is greatly diminished. Which of the following do you think is the best choice?

Basic Armor Plates
93.5 hp, 2% movement penalty
10 CPU, 1 PG

Complex Ferroscale Plates
82.5 hp, 0% movement penalty
39 CPU, 14 PG

I'll take more hp and waaaaaaaaaaay less fitting cost and happily eat the 2% movement penalty. Don't get me wrong, I think the new numbers for Armor Plates are a big step in the right direction, but if Ferroscale Plates are changed to your proposed numbers no one will ever use them. Ever.

Ever.




Seriously. :) So maybe give them more hp?

Thanks for your time and keep it rolling!

This is just wrong on many things.

-First off there is 6v6 weapons for shields and armor after you remove what kills both (REs) and what has not been added yet. Check out the weapon ranges dev blog and count them yourself. Remember to remove things like swarms as they cannot target dsuits and this is not a vehicle debate.
-Armor has rep tool AND triage hives... shields have nothing.
-With the changes proposed armor penalty will be easily negated with 1, SERIOUSLY 1, KinCat. The movement penalty is minimal now.
-Shields do have a low mod but no equipment (armor gets 2) plus there is only 1 kind of extender that is worth anything, armor gets 9...all being useful.
-Shields are resource intensive as well but do get CPU/PG enhancers so advantage shields, we'll see how the penalty plays out.
-Explosives are supposed to be 120% to armor 80% to shields, check out the weapon ranges Dev Blog, the fact that it is not is a known bug.
-Lasers are 120% Shields 80% armor, there are more Lasers than Explosive weapons after removing REs and swarms (seriously check out the Dev Blog)
-Armor gets more HP at all levels (even standard vs Pro shield)
-Shields don't have that buffer in front like armor does, plus 0 Armor does not mean death if shields are recharging.

This is a pendulum shift not balance. I'm glad for a change but it all will just be fixed again in 3-6 months once shields start falling away. Shields will be the minority soon, which is fine, Armor fought that fight for ages.

Can we please fix hit detection before we buff strafe speed?

This is wrong, logi have built in reppers, they work all the time......

this will not end well.

It's very disapointing to see no mention of a cpu/pg reduction for ferroscale plates. I see no reason why it shouldn't be the same as the regular plates. The high cpu/pg is a big barrier for scouts who have such limited cpu/pg already. This is a big problem since scouts stand to gain the most from ferroscale plates

why not? caldari have only 130 or less armor (unless armor plates are put on). i think all suit should get 1.00 to armor repair besides logi's until ccp is able to put their logi bonus they want on them. what really stinks is snipers are screwed if they not using the charge.

Strafe speed is getting increased to 90% of run speed. Tell me how's that not a buff?

-XOXO

Oh sh*t CCp i just LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE you <3

I'm an Amarr Logi turned on the Armor tanking (much than shield i mean).

-After the Amarr Logi suit Buff i was like POOOOOW but now i'm ...PIDIPOOOOOW !!!!!
(Tiny tina's quote anyway xD)



CCP you made logic finally !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Armor is made for TANKING.
Shields are made for MOVEMENT and tactical advantage NOT Tanking you finally noticed it !!!!!

Armor player is made for defense purpose (Slower)
And Shield utits are Monsters when attacking a point because they are pretty speed and can break up a line of front really speedy (Exemple taking the inside point fast.)

Simply Love it.

BL4CKST4R according to your numbers here and the fact that a militia AR does 467 dps with no mods, without proficiency and without head-shots. 110% to shield and 95% efficacy to armor. because with the bonus 1.1x every shot is actually worth 37.4 hp, we can deduce the following regarding these suits tank ability:

*note: this assumes that you are standing still and that the assailant is not missing any shots. milita Ar has 48 rounds in the clip.


CPU- 344/394
PG- 72/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 392
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.72
Sprint- 6.94
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 945 | ISK: 91,800 | AUR: 0

553/[37.4*1.1] = 12.50 (approx 13 shots) shots to remove
553/[467*1.1] = 1.07 seconds to remove

392/[37.4*.95] = 11.03 (round up) shots to deplete armor
392/[467 *.95] = 0.88 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots required to kill = 24 rounds.
Total time to kill = 1.95 or approximately 2 seconds.

this opponent needs 24 rounds and 2 seconds of direct fire not missing a shot to take out this suit. with good timing and movement variations, including but not limited to using cover this suits survivability is extremely high.




CPU- 267/394
PG- 62/79
Shield- 368
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 993 | ISK: 83,355 | AUR: 0

368/[37.4*1.1] = 8.94 (round up) shots to remove
368/[467*1.1] = .716 seconds to remove

625/[37.4*.95] = 17.59 (round up) shots to deplete armor
625/[467 *.95] = 1.4 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots required to kill = 27 rounds.
Total time to kill = 2.11 or approximately 2 seconds.

the difference between this one and prior is that it requires 3 more shots to kill under the aforementioed conditions. but this is negligible don't count on those 3 shots making that big a difference.

CPU- 261/394
PG- 55/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 150
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 5
Sprint- 7.35
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 703 | ISK: 80,385 | AUR: 0

]553/[37.4*1.1] = 12.50 (approx 13 shots) shots to remove
553/[467*1.1] = 1.07 seconds to remove

150/[37.4*.95] = 4.22 (round up) shots to deplete armor
150/[467 *.95] = .338 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots required to kill = 17 rounds.
Total time to kill = 1.4




CPU- 105/394
PG- 29/79
Shield- 150
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 775 | ISK: 70,530 | AUR: 0

150/[37.4*1.1] = 3.64 (round up) shots to remove
150/[467*1.1] = .291 seconds to remove

625/[37.4*.95] = 17.59 (round up) shots to deplete armor
625/[467 *.95] = 1.4 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots to kill = 21
total time to kill = 1.7

as you can see your movement speed is proportionally decreased by the slight increase in durability you get. compared to shield tanking, you lose .36 meters per second in movement speed, to gain the ability to tank 3 more shots, or consequently survive. 2seconds longer on average.

of course these numbers only represent your ability to survive direct fire from a single milita AR without damage mods, headshots, or proficiency on the bonus 10% buff given all weapons after the first week of uprising was factored in.

these results would compare diferenctly if i were to use a HMG or scrambelr as a constant. however, as AR fire is the most common arms fire you will encounter this is a good measure of your suits durability.

At 7-9 armor repairers become completely optional, and 7-9 is high enough to be useful but low enough to not reach the same repair rates as a Caldari suit and thus a repair tool is still needed to repair at the same speed or faster. In order to repair at the same speed as a Caldari suit within a timeframe of 60 seconds we would need a repair of 23-29 HP/s.

So IMHO it should go:

A/L = Assault/Logistics

Caldari A/L - 1/3
Minmatar A/L - 3/5
Gallente A/L - 9/11
Amarr A/L - 8/10