New Eden is harsh, that's why. It's a universe unlike no other.

This is not Planetside, Battlefield or MAG.

Nor is it a space point-and-click game.

I think the keyword is "LOGISTICS" .... they are not really medics. Repairing suits and reviving clones is just SOME of their skills.

Why is this a core assumption of balance? Let's look at other popular titles -

Planteside 2 - Medic has exclusive access to the best ARs
Battlefield - Medics oscillate from HMGs to ARs between games
MAG - Medic tool was mandatory for all competent fits

vs

TF2 - Medics can do nothing but heal (very tactical healing system in exchange)

So what does DUST gain by making logistics suits unattractive to slayers? What might it be losing?

I'll let you in on a little secret: Every damn suit in this game is a slayer because it's a ****ing FPS! Logis just happen to be able to slay and carry more equipment while doing it.

As mentioned above, these skill changes are largely to discourage assault-focused players from using the Logistics suit as their frontline choice.

I'll let you in on a little secret: Every damn suit in this game is a slayer because it's a ****ing FPS! Logis just happen to be able to slay and carry more equipment while doing it.

What else do they do? Are they able to engage 100% of their time doing those activities? Are those activities fun? Skillful? Useful? Trying to get a slightly deeper discussion than labels going.

What else do they do? Are they able to engage 100% of their time doing those activities? Are those activities fun? Skillful? Useful? Trying to get a slightly deeper discussion than labels going.

But CCP is actively trying to change this.


The question is: Is this a good design goal? Why or why not?

It's not that they shouldn't or are strictly prohibited from killing reds it's the fact that they shouldn't be the best choice for such a role. Otherwise what's the point of even having an Assault suit?

I could just compound your question by asking "What is the point of two separate suits in the first place?"

I am musing if having one class be "designated backpack" is really a fun design choice. Couldn't all classes simply have 2 or more equipment slots?

And 1 reply/2 minutes was a truly awful nerf

But CCP is actively trying to change this.


The question is: Is this a good design goal? Why or why not?

Slay without having any real downsides compared to the actual slayer suit*

So what would be the point of being assault if Logi does the same only having more equipment slots...
That makes 0 sense.

Because variaty?
Look, Logi suits can still fight, but they shouldn't be as effective as the slayer suit.
It might not be fun to you being the guy with all the equipment, but some people enjoy being the guy that keeps everyone alive, ammoed up, healthy, and ready to steamroll the enemy.
If you don't enjoy that, go assault.
If you want equipment and are willing to give up a bit of power then go Logi.

WTF do you want logis to do? Follow heavies around all battle with a repair tool out? Be a pack mule for the squad? Try to revive you when we're all surrounded by reds? Jesus, it's a FPS where we all run around with guns, there's no Geneva Convention. If someone shoots at me, I'm going to shoot back and pick up any dead blueberries on the way. Sidearm, no sidearm, less speed, more speed. A suit is just a suit, it's the player that uses the suit that defines it. If my squad is stocked up, nobody is bleeding out, or nobody needs reps, I'm going to bust a cap in someone's ass because what the hell else are you supposed to do in a game where you hold guns in a first person view?

It's not that they shouldn't or are strictly prohibited from killing reds it's the fact that they shouldn't be the best choice for such a role. Otherwise what's the point of even having an Assault suit?

Edit: Also they'll still be able to slay just fine, they just won't be doing it with 680 shield HP...

I have a feeling you went logi because you know there is no point in being assault...

I am NOT saying you shouldn't be able to engage someone in combat.
I'm saying you SHOULD NOT BE AS EFFECTIVE AS THE GUY WITH THE SUIT DESIGNED TO DO JUST THAT!
Simple!
You give up some of the power to be extremely versatile!

Give me a reason to go assault.

I have a feeling you went logi because you know there is no point in being assault...

I am NOT saying you shouldn't be able to engage someone in combat.
I'm saying you SHOULD NOT BE AS EFFECTIVE AS THE GUY WITH THE SUIT DESIGNED TO DO JUST THAT!
Simple!
You give up some of the power to be extremely versatile!

Give me a reason to go assault.

I have a feeling you went logi because you know there is no point in being assault...

I am NOT saying you shouldn't be able to engage someone in combat.
I'm saying you SHOULD NOT BE AS EFFECTIVE AS THE GUY WITH THE SUIT DESIGNED TO DO JUST THAT!
Simple!
You give up some of the power to be extremely versatile!

Give me a reason to go assault.

Yeah, what is wrong with the Assault suit anyway ? I use it all the time and is fine... You can even be an Assault Medic if you want too, just equip an Injector.

I went logi because I was bored with assault, and I usually gravitate towards healing/support classes. Oh, and this was back in Chromosome when there was only one logi suit, the exact same one that I'm using now that didn't change much outside of a shield nerf and a hacking bonus...

I didn't pay much attention to logi suits in chromosome, I don't believe you had more module slots than assaults, did ya?

New Eden is harsh, that's why. It's a universe unlike no other.

Always did from each suit tier. The only difference between now and then is that they got rid of the Type 2, B-Series, and VK1 which were faster at the cost of equipment slots, nerfed the shields, added a minor speed buff, and put the hacking bonus on a per level basis instead of what suit tier.

Indeed, empty like no other.

WTF do you want logis to do? Follow heavies around all battle with a repair tool out? Be a pack mule for the squad? Try to revive you when we're all surrounded by reds? Jesus, it's a FPS where we all run around with guns, there's no Geneva Convention. If someone shoots at me, I'm going to shoot back and pick up any dead blueberries on the way. Sidearm, no sidearm, less speed, more speed. A suit is just a suit, it's the player that uses the suit that defines it. If my squad is stocked up, nobody is bleeding out, or nobody needs reps, I'm going to bust a cap in someone's ass because what the hell else are you supposed to do in a game where you hold guns in a first person view?

Cry cry cry, Logibros shouldn't be on the front lines being killing machines plain and simple. You guys cry about balence and things being OP. When there is a step in the right direction your panties get all bunched up. Think about this for a second where is the balance if a logi suit can kill better than an assault and tank better than a heavy with the added advantage of equipment slots? You guys just to need to get over your "god-suit" being nerfed a tad bit. Learn to work with your teammates. Its only going to get worse for you "one man army" types. Can't wait for the flaylock nerf and all the people crying about a little balance. I for one am glad they are choosing to nerf the logis and am excited about the equipment bonuses that are coming. Dust is constantly going to be changing, demanding new tatics. It's only the people that can't evolve and adapt to change that cry so much about every little change. If you don't like change in a FPS there is a game for you COD.

And until they take away your light weapon slot you'll still be able to do exactly that! You just won't be doing it with more tank than ANY other Med suit.

For fucks sake people you all act as if you've just been told they're removing your light weapon slot.

And until they take away your light weapon slot you'll still be able to do exactly that! You just won't be doing it with more tank than ANY other Med suit.

For fucks sake people you all act as if you've just been told they're removing your light weapon slot.

It would be a logical next move if people still use logis over assaults no?

I'm a Minmatar logi, I never had more tank than any other suit. Hell, I hybrid tank with ~450HP and fast regen. Everyone is so obsessed with buffer tanking that nobody knows what the hell a shield regulator does. Also, if you noticed in the dev blog, only the CaLogi and ALogi are being changed. The shield recharge delay came out of left field, but it's kind of meh since I know what a shield regulator does.

So if your chosen suit is already balanced and therefore not seeing any changes then why are you here bitching?

I think that the freedom to do as you wish with your dropsuit has been slightly robbed...

Because people think that none of the suits (excluding CaLogi) are balanced. Check my post history, I've been defending logibros since all this drama started. Last thing I wanted to do was log in one day to find out that all my fittings are invalid because I can only use sidearms because everyone thought yellow = OP and CCP decided to give the squeaky wheel the grease.

Why is this a core assumption of balance? Let's look at other popular titles -

Planteside 2 - Medic has exclusive access to the best ARs
Battlefield - Medics oscillate from HMGs to ARs between games
MAG - Medic tool was mandatory for all competent fits

vs

TF2 - Medics can do nothing but heal (very tactical healing system in exchange)

So what does DUST gain by making logistics suits unattractive to slayers? What might it be losing?

If you want this outcome then there shouldnt be classes.

to do what you want there should be a single frame and you skill into different types of slots and fill the frame with the slots you want - mix and match. Am ok with this but then we shoudlnt pretend there are classes in this game

But CCP is actively trying to change this.


The question is: Is this a good design goal? Why or why not?

Quite an assumption you make there. Or have you read the minds of all invested in this game?

I personally feel that with these changes Scout's are the only one's in dire need of attention. Other than that most frames/roles are pretty well balanced.

I highly doubt you will EVER see logis restricted to sidearms only. So uhh don't get your panties all wadded up just yet

The point of this thread flew over your head I'm afraid. The nerf was expected and ultimately unimportant to my core question "What is logistics supposed to do to be proactive?" Ammo, healing, even mines, are all on the reactive side. At least if they were also good combat suits they would have a role. Again, this change doesn't make them bad, the concern is it is just the beginning to make combat as painful as possible in these suits.

I kind of like the idea of the bonuses that they'll give to logis that will be for equipment. I'm wary of of my Cal logi getting a bonus to just drop uplinks because then it's like oh ok I guess I'm all about drop uplinks now. I didn't choose that AT ALL but no respecs so I guess that's my focus now, even though I had NO PART in it.

More distinction between assault and logi is good but they have to remember that in an FPS killing red dots is more important and game changing than supporting teammates with equipment. So if they make logis equally effective at support as assaults are at combat, then logis are second fiddles, good at a less vital role.

I've only been playing for about a month and I've been very positive in the forums but these guys need to get their **** together. Turning me into a bittervet already.

Your noobness shows if you truly believe logistics are a secondary role.

Find one corporation that doesn't consider logistics (true logis) as an absolutely essential role in a PC battle.

Aside from heavy weapons, every suit in the game can use any weapon or any module as long as you skill into it and have the CPU/PG to fit it all. We already have the freedom to do what we wish with our dropsuits. The problem is that you have people trying to tell you how you should play or cry nerf when they think something is OP without being specific. Remember all those nerf all the logi topics when all this started? My number one question I always asked was how are all logis OP? Half of them couldn't answer because it was all about painting things with a broad yellow brush.

Aside from heavy weapons, every suit in the game can use any weapon or any module as long as you skill into it and have the CPU/PG to fit it all. We already have the freedom to do what we wish with our dropsuits. The problem is that you have people trying to tell you how you should play or cry nerf when they think something is OP without being specific. Remember all those nerf all the logi topics when all this started? My number one question I always asked was how are all logis OP? Half of them couldn't answer because it was all about painting things with a broad yellow brush.

So out of the 16 guys on your team you want 8 of them to be logis? If less, it's secondary. Give me your answer please.

EDIT: Well ok there are heavies and scouts too, so 8 logis, 8 assaults is a fallacy, but my point is...don't you want there to be more combat guys on the field than support guys? Yes. That's because the combat role is primary. Guess what that makes support?

???

the suit decides what you can and cant do - try fitting stuff on a scout.

Your noobness shows if you truly believe logistics are a secondary role.

Find one corporation that doesn't consider logistics (true logis) as an absolutely essential role in a PC battle.

So out of the 16 guys on your team you want 8 of them to be logis? If less, it's secondary. Give me your answer please.

EDIT: Well ok there are heavies and scouts too, so 8 logis, 8 assaults is a fallacy, but my point is...don't you want there to be more combat guys on the field than support guys? Yes. That's because the combat role is primary. Guess what that makes support?

You'd be hard pressed to find even one pure support logi in PC by request, let alone in high demand.

Been throwing this idea around lately...
No damage mods on logis
Make equipment a requirement
Make equipment metal level = or > weapon meta level

This means no pro gun without pro equipment unless you completely sacrifice tank.
This makes logis high armored roles based on support just like the logi dropship, which has more life but less damage with turrets
(no damage mods or pro gun unless you sacrifice big tank)

Thoughts?

Well no **** there's going to be more combat focused roles on the field compared to support. But that does not in ANY way take away from the importance of support roles on the field. Generally your heavies and logistics are designated for point defense while a Hacking logi rolls with the mobile assault squad.

If you ever spend time in PC battles and debating the tactics therein you will quickly see their importance.

No such thing as pure support.
Got an assault rifle?
You can be an assault, even if all you equipment is for support.

No such thing as pure support.
Got an assault rifle?
You can be an assault, even if all you equipment is for support.

You'd be hard pressed to find even one pure support logi in PC by request, let alone in high demand.

I'd have to disagree, I have a couple logistics in corp that on multiple occasions have proven so effective in PC battles that we've been offered millions to trade them to other corps within the alliance. They are requested by name when battles come up, simply because they are dedicated SOLELY to support.

Why is this a core assumption of balance? Let's look at other popular titles -

Planteside 2 - Medic has exclusive access to the best ARs
Battlefield - Medics oscillate from HMGs to ARs between games
MAG - Medic tool was mandatory for all competent fits

vs

TF2 - Medics can do nothing but heal (very tactical healing system in exchange)

So what does DUST gain by making logistics suits unattractive to slayers? What might it be losing?

But CCP is actively trying to change this.


The question is: Is this a good design goal? Why or why not?

You'd be hard pressed to find even one pure support logi in PC by request, let alone in high demand.

Why is this a core assumption of balance? Let's look at other popular titles -

Planteside 2 - Medic has exclusive access to the best ARs
Battlefield - Medics oscillate from HMGs to ARs between games
MAG - Medic tool was mandatory for all competent fits

vs

TF2 - Medics can do nothing but heal (very tactical healing system in exchange)

So what does DUST gain by making logistics suits unattractive to slayers? What might it be losing?

bf3 is a kids game...they gave the medic the best guns so people would want to play medic..that did not work...now every one plays the med class just to run around with an m16 or an aek....im not sure about ps2....now in mag you needed the med tool but it took up a lot of space...so alot of times you could not use the gun you wanted or you could not equip the amount of armor you wanted...i think dust should be the same way...a medics job is to repair and rearm his comrades.. taking down the enemy comes second..

bf3 is a kids game...they gave the medic the best guns so people would want to play medic..that did not work...now every one plays the med class just to run around with an m16 or an aek....im not sure about ps2....now in mag you needed the med tool but it took up a lot of space...so alot of times you could not use the gun you wanted or you could not equip the amount of armor you wanted...i think dust should be the same way...a medics job is to repair and rearm his comrades.. taking down the enemy comes second..

I'm not saying they shouldn't be slayers.
I'm saying they shouldn't be as effective at it as the class desgined to be a slayer, while still retaining the verastility that having 4 equipment slots brings >_>

I'm not saying they shouldn't be slayers.
I'm saying they shouldn't be as effective at it as the class desgined to be a slayer, while still retaining the verastility that having 4 equipment slots brings >_>

I don't have any interest in EVE, lore or anything even vaguely related to it fyi.

All assault suits should get a 3% per level ALL weapon type dmg bonus as its universal bonus across the races then racial bonuses can be either bonuses to primary tank (based on the slot variety) or the racial frames can vary based on a +1 module that can be either an extra equipment, nade or perhaps even weapon slot.

Point is there needs to be better incentives in the assault suits then trying to nerf out the logi suits. The high number of modules are needed because as people have pointed out LOGISTICS suits have other functions besides being equipment whores.

Those slots allow for cpu/pg adjustments if needed as well as using other modules such as codebreakers and passive scan mods. The biotic mods allows for great deal of flexibility that gets the logistics class around the field to setup any equpment they are carrying or harass behind enemy lines.

Point is logistics suits are supposed to be the most varaible class, this has been the design intention since the beginning as evidence from the early dev vlogs.

But the most important thing is assault suits are a joke and they are the class that need better bonuses and thought. A reload bonus is arguably the most useless bonus on that class given that no amount of reload speed can shorten the animation down faster then what it takes to switch to a sidearm.

I just saying ... A "medic" will be an Assault with an injector or a Repair tool. Logistics are more a "Doctor" than a medic, or even a "mechanic" ... considering that clones are not really alive in the 1st place.

You are a ******* idiot and I'm tired hearing your bullshit.

Even after the nerf you want more. **** you.

Shut up

Any self respecting logi already does this and runs support in their own way. For example, I use my speed and hacking bonus to run distraction while laying out uplinks, repair hives, and mines in strategic positions depending on the map while abusing the active scanner. I usually don't get any more than 10~15 kills and net 1200~1800 WP through simple field control. If there are more armor tankers or heavies, I might focus on repair tools and an injector while staying with my squad to keep them in the fight while laying covering fire. There's no wrong way to play logistics, but I think it's wrong that people think they should tell others how they should play. We already had this kind of elitism in EVE at one point, and hope it's something that doesn't translate to Dust.