DUST Search - Logistics shouldn't be allowed to be slayers?

Cat Merc wrote:

Cosgar wrote:

WTF do you want logis to do? Follow heavies around all battle with a repair tool out? Be a pack mule for the squad? Try to revive you when we're all surrounded by reds? Jesus, it's a FPS where we all run around with guns, there's no Geneva Convention. If someone shoots at me, I'm going to shoot back and pick up any dead blueberries on the way. Sidearm, no sidearm, less speed, more speed. A suit is just a suit, it's the player that uses the suit that defines it. If my squad is stocked up, nobody is bleeding out, or nobody needs reps, I'm going to bust a cap in someone's ass because what the hell else are you supposed to do in a game where you hold guns in a first person view?

I have a feeling you went logi because you know there is no point in being assault...

I am NOT saying you shouldn't be able to engage someone in combat.
I'm saying you SHOULD NOT BE AS EFFECTIVE AS THE GUY WITH THE SUIT DESIGNED TO DO JUST THAT!
Simple!
You give up some of the power to be extremely versatile!

Give me a reason to go assault.

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Noc Tempre Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2174	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:50:00 - [1] - Quote Why is this a core assumption of balance? Let's look at other popular titles - Planteside 2 - Medic has exclusive access to the best ARs Battlefield - Medics oscillate from HMGs to ARs between games MAG - Medic tool was mandatory for all competent fits vs TF2 - Medics can do nothing but heal (very tactical healing system in exchange) So what does DUST gain by making logistics suits unattractive to slayers? What might it be losing?

ChribbaX Otherworld Enterprises Dust Control Otherworld Empire Productions 687	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:51:00 - [2] - Quote New Eden is harsh, that's why. It's a universe unlike no other.

Dale Templar Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 293	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:51:00 - [3] - Quote This is not Planetside, Battlefield or MAG.
Noc Tempre Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2174	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:53:00 - [4] - Quote ChribbaX wrote: New Eden is harsh, that's why. It's a universe unlike no other. Thank you for blindly defending CCP with no thought processes engaged. Your comment is appreciated.
Gauder Berwyck Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 264	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:54:00 - [5] - Quote Dale Templar wrote: This is not Planetside, Battlefield or MAG. Nor is it a space point-and-click game.
Panther Alpha DarkWingsss 619	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:54:00 - [6] - Quote I think the keyword is "LOGISTICS" .... they are not really medics. Repairing suits and reviving clones is just SOME of their skills.
Dale Templar Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 293	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:56:00 - [7] - Quote Gauder Berwyck wrote: Dale Templar wrote: This is not Planetside, Battlefield or MAG. Nor is it a space point-and-click game. I don't have any interest in EVE, lore or anything even vaguely related to it fyi.
J-Lewis Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 217	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:56:00 - [8] - Quote If anything, they should be closer to TF2 medics. DUST could really benefit from a more tactical healing system. E.g. Spider tanking for infantry.
Cosgar ParagonX 2851	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:57:00 - [9] - Quote I'll let you in on a little secret: Every damn suit in this game is a slayer because it's a ing FPS! Logis just happen to be able to slay and carry more equipment while doing it.
Noc Tempre Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2174	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:58:00 - [10] - Quote Panther Alpha wrote: I think the keyword is "LOGISTICS" .... they are not really medics. Repairing suits and reviving clones is just SOME of their skills. What else do they do? Are they able to engage 100% of their time doing those activities? Are those activities fun? Skillful? Useful? Trying to get a slightly deeper discussion than labels going.

Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 3295	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:58:00 - [11] - Quote I'm not saying they shouldn't be slayers. I'm saying they shouldn't be as effective at it as the class desgined to be a slayer, while still retaining the verastility that having 4 equipment slots brings >_>
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood 890	Posted - 2013.07.19 08:58:00 - [12] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Why is this a core assumption of balance? Let's look at other popular titles - Planteside 2 - Medic has exclusive access to the best ARs Battlefield - Medics oscillate from HMGs to ARs between games MAG - Medic tool was mandatory for all competent fits vs TF2 - Medics can do nothing but heal (very tactical healing system in exchange) So what does DUST gain by making logistics suits unattractive to slayers? What might it be losing? Who said anything about medic? Its a logistic suit... huge variation. I fit mine with explosives, MDs and a huge tank... I fit mine with drop uplinks, speed mods and pistols I fit mine as a supply depo... AND yes i fit my as a repping machine... Dust is not the same, class is not the same
Noc Tempre Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2176	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:00:00 - [13] - Quote Cosgar wrote: I'll let you in on a little secret: Every damn suit in this game is a slayer because it's a ing FPS! Logis just happen to be able to slay and carry more equipment while doing it. But CCP is actively trying to change this. Quote: As mentioned above, these skill changes are largely to discourage assault-focused players from using the Logistics suit as their frontline choice. The question is: Is this a good design goal? Why or why not?
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 3295	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:01:00 - [14] - Quote Cosgar wrote: I'll let you in on a little secret: Every damn suit in this game is a slayer because it's a ing FPS! Logis just happen to be able to slay and carry more equipment while doing it. Slay without having any real downsides compared to the actual slayer suit*
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 782	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:02:00 - [15] - Quote Apparently all we should be doing is reviving and repairing armor. We try something different and get nerfed as a result. Seriously, I wasted 3/4 of my low slots so I could run hives, uplinks and other team-focused equipment items (remotes on objectives anyone? Proxys to take out annoying LAV's?) yet just because I kill rather than revive, I get punished.
Dale Templar Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 294	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:02:00 - [16] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Panther Alpha wrote: I think the keyword is "LOGISTICS" .... they are not really medics. Repairing suits and reviving clones is just SOME of their skills. What else do they do? Are they able to engage 100% of their time doing those activities? Are those activities fun? Skillful? Useful? Trying to get a slightly deeper discussion than labels going. Yes, Logistics should be able to engage when necessary, it would be insane to say otherwise BUT their main focus should be support roles, Ammo, Healing (This is a BIG one), Uplinks and taking a backseat from the combat to keep the rest of the squad alive. The Caldari Logistics is STILL combat viable, it's not really that big a nerf, the people who are complaining are the people who ran Logistics as straight assault fits. Revival isn't necessary when you're being kept alive in the first place, so a rep tool is the MAIN thing a Logistics shout run, Nanohives coming in at close second. Most Assaults run Uplinks but Logistics should be dictating where the battle happens, pushing the spawn points forward as the Assaults push the enemy back, dictating how the battle goes. The job of a Logistics is not to be a slayer, more of a tactician. Picking and choosing who to keep alive, keeping the vehicles running, even running remote explosives to set traps when defending a point. Keeping the Assaults well stocked with ammo, while ASSISTING in the Assault. If you're sacrificing equipment for your weapon or tank, you're not doing your job as a Logistics, the team comes first.
Another Heavy SOB TRUE TEA BAGGERS EoN. 411	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:03:00 - [17] - Quote It's not that they shouldn't or are strictly prohibited from killing reds it's the fact that they shouldn't be the best choice for such a role. Otherwise what's the point of even having an Assault suit?
Panther Alpha DarkWingsss 619	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:03:00 - [18] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Panther Alpha wrote: I think the keyword is "LOGISTICS" .... they are not really medics. Repairing suits and reviving clones is just SOME of their skills. What else do they do? Are they able to engage 100% of their time doing those activities? Are those activities fun? Skillful? Useful? Trying to get a slightly deeper discussion than labels going. I just saying ... A "medic" will be an Assault with an injector or a Repair tool. Logistics are more a "Doctor" than a medic, or even a "*mechanic*" ... considering that clones are not really alive in the 1st place.
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 3295	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:05:00 - [19] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Cosgar wrote: I'll let you in on a little secret: Every damn suit in this game is a slayer because it's a ing FPS! Logis just happen to be able to slay and carry more equipment while doing it. But CCP is actively trying to change this. Quote: As mentioned above, these skill changes are largely to discourage assault-focused players from using the Logistics suit as their frontline choice. The question is: Is this a good design goal? Why or why not? So what would be the point of being assault if Logi does the same only having more equipment slots... That makes 0 sense.
Noc Tempre Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2176	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:07:00 - [20] - Quote Another Heavy SOB wrote: It's not that they shouldn't or are strictly prohibited from killing reds it's the fact that they shouldn't be the best choice for such a role. Otherwise what's the point of even having an Assault suit? I could just compound your question by asking "What is the point of two separate suits in the first place?" I am musing if having one class be "designated backpack" is really a fun design choice. Couldn't all classes simply have 2 or more equipment slots? And 1 reply/2 minutes was a truly awful nerf

Rupture Reaperson Kinsho Swords Caldari State 249	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:08:00 - [21] - Quote Its kinda simple, im ok with the logis getting less performance on the frontline combat AS LONG the assualt variant gets a resemblance of logistical barebones value, in onther words, when they add at least another equiment slot to the damn things, just running around with a needle OR ammo, pushed the Slayer/Logi mentallity, as well as module layout and the huge chunk of PG/CPU gain that logisuits get.
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 3297	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:09:00 - [22] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Another Heavy SOB wrote: It's not that they shouldn't or are strictly prohibited from killing reds it's the fact that they shouldn't be the best choice for such a role. Otherwise what's the point of even having an Assault suit? I could just compound your question by asking "What is the point of two separate suits in the first place?" I am musing if having one class be "designated backpack" is really a fun design choice. Couldn't all classes simply have 2 or more equipment slots? And 1 reply/2 minutes was a truly awful nerf Because variaty? Look, Logi suits can still fight, but they shouldn't be as effective as the slayer suit. It might not be fun to you being the guy with all the equipment, but some people enjoy being the guy that keeps everyone alive, ammoed up, healthy, and ready to steamroll the enemy. If you don't enjoy that, go assault. If you want equipment and are willing to give up a bit of power then go Logi.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 667	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:10:00 - [23] - Quote I totally support tactical logi builds. My only problem was that the logistics suit was a better assault suit than the assault. I don't care how people fit their suits and all fits should be allowed if one can squeeze past the resources. I have an AV logi that I use more as an explosives expert than a healer. The suit is flexible and should stay that way but it should not be better at assault roles than the actual assault suit.
Cosgar ParagonX 2852	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:10:00 - [24] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Cosgar wrote: I'll let you in on a little secret: Every damn suit in this game is a slayer because it's a ing FPS! Logis just happen to be able to slay and carry more equipment while doing it. But CCP is actively trying to change this. Quote: As mentioned above, these skill changes are largely to discourage assault-focused players from using the Logistics suit as their frontline choice. The question is: Is this a good design goal? Why or why not? Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: I'll let you in on a little secret: Every damn suit in this game is a slayer because it's a ing FPS! Logis just happen to be able to slay and carry more equipment while doing it. Slay without having any real downsides compared to the actual slayer suit* WTF do you want logis to do? Follow heavies around all battle with a repair tool out? Be a pack mule for the squad? Try to revive you when we're all surrounded by reds? Jesus, it's a FPS where we all run around with guns, there's no Geneva Convention. If someone shoots at me, I'm going to shoot back and pick up any dead blueberries on the way. Sidearm, no sidearm, less speed, more speed. A suit is just a suit, it's the player that uses the suit that defines it. If my squad is stocked up, nobody is bleeding out, or nobody needs reps, I'm going to bust a cap in someone's ass because what the hell else are you supposed to do in a game where you hold guns in a first person view?
Noc Tempre Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2176	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:10:00 - [25] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Cosgar wrote: I'll let you in on a little secret: Every damn suit in this game is a slayer because it's a ing FPS! Logis just happen to be able to slay and carry more equipment while doing it. But CCP is actively trying to change this. Quote: As mentioned above, these skill changes are largely to discourage assault-focused players from using the Logistics suit as their frontline choice. The question is: Is this a good design goal? Why or why not? So what would be the point of being assault if Logi does the same only having more equipment slots... That makes 0 sense. Is there enough gameplay in having an "equipment mule" to make the logistics a single focus suit? There is no reason for example the assaults couldn't absorb the still-birth commando trick of two light weapons and be different that way instead.
Duck Drahko DUST University Ivy League 33	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:12:00 - [26] - Quote Exactly, Medic = Assault. Logistics is more like Field Ops (if you played Enemy Territory). They also kill (sometimes a lot since... they don't run out of ammo), but are mainly support and will lose most one on ones against a Medic. If you make Logistics better Rambo Medics than Assault, then the Assault class has no more reason to exist. I really don't understand all this "you don't want us to kill?!" outrage though. Did somebody take away your gun? Didn't think so. Not being the best at something != not being able to do something.
Panther Alpha DarkWingsss 619	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:13:00 - [27] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Another Heavy SOB wrote: It's not that they shouldn't or are strictly prohibited from killing reds it's the fact that they shouldn't be the best choice for such a role. Otherwise what's the point of even having an Assault suit? I could just compound your question by asking "What is the point of two separate suits in the first place?" I am musing if having one class be "designated backpack" is really a fun design choice. Couldn't all classes simply have 2 or more equipment slots? And 1 reply/2 minutes was a truly awful nerf Because variaty? Look, Logi suits can still fight, but they shouldn't be as effective as the slayer suit. It might not be fun to you being the guy with all the equipment, but some people enjoy being the guy that keeps everyone alive, ammoed up, healthy, and ready to steamroll the enemy. If you don't enjoy that, go assault. If you want equipment and are willing to give up a bit of power then go Logi. Yeah, what is wrong with the Assault suit anyway ? I use it all the time and is fine... You can even be an Assault Medic if you want too, just equip an Injector.
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 3297	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:13:00 - [28] - Quote Cosgar wrote: WTF do you want logis to do? Follow heavies around all battle with a repair tool out? Be a pack mule for the squad? Try to revive you when we're all surrounded by reds? Jesus, it's a FPS where we all run around with guns, there's no Geneva Convention. If someone shoots at me, I'm going to shoot back and pick up any dead blueberries on the way. Sidearm, no sidearm, less speed, more speed. A suit is just a suit, it's the player that uses the suit that defines it. If my squad is stocked up, nobody is bleeding out, or nobody needs reps, I'm going to bust a cap in someone's ass because what the hell else are you supposed to do in a game where you hold guns in a first person view? I have a feeling you went logi because you know there is no point in being assault... I am NOT saying you shouldn't be able to engage someone in combat. I'm saying you SHOULD NOT BE AS EFFECTIVE AS THE GUY WITH THE SUIT DESIGNED TO DO JUST THAT! Simple! You give up some of the power to be extremely versatile! Give me a reason to go assault.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 782	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:15:00 - [29] - Quote Another Heavy SOB wrote: It's not that they shouldn't or are strictly prohibited from killing reds it's the fact that they shouldn't be the best choice for such a role. Otherwise what's the point of even having an Assault suit? Edit: Also they'll still be able to slay just fine, they just won't be doing it with 680 shield HP... What makes the calogi (in it's current non-gimped form) the best choice over a regular assault?
Noc Tempre Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2176	Posted - 2013.07.19 09:16:00 - [30] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: WTF do you want logis to do? Follow heavies around all battle with a repair tool out? Be a pack mule for the squad? Try to revive you when we're all surrounded by reds? Jesus, it's a FPS where we all run around with guns, there's no Geneva Convention. If someone shoots at me, I'm going to shoot back and pick up any dead blueberries on the way. Sidearm, no sidearm, less speed, more speed. A suit is just a suit, it's the player that uses the suit that defines it. If my squad is stocked up, nobody is bleeding out, or nobody needs reps, I'm going to bust a cap in someone's ass because what the hell else are you supposed to do in a game where you hold guns in a first person view? I have a feeling you went logi because you know there is no point in being assault... I am NOT saying you shouldn't be able to engage someone in combat. I'm saying you SHOULD NOT BE AS EFFECTIVE AS THE GUY WITH THE SUIT DESIGNED TO DO JUST THAT! Simple! You give up some of the power to be extremely versatile! Give me a reason to go assault. I still feel there is no reason to go assault. Mediocre bonuses don't really make up for loss of slots, equipment, etc. I should probably clarify I don't think this nerf is a big deal, I am more interested in the assumptions that underline it and the direction they intend to take this game.



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