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Deluxe Edition
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Posted - 2013.07.08 03:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
lol at your data to prove OPness taken from random pub matches. How about taking data from competitive enviroments such as planetary conquest where most teams are running almost a full squad of Duel Wield Core Flaylock pistols every match which are able to 3 shot all infantry (even the dreaded caladari logi with it's 700 shields.).
The gun is a boob tube, the average player might struggle with the weapon because they aim for the chest or are unable to lead shots, however give the gun to an above average player and they will become godlike. |
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Posted - 2013.07.08 03:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:DRDEEZENUTSZ TWOpointo wrote:The assault rifle is over powered when they fight weapons that are out of there niche. I will concur with that but, then the next logical thing we have to look at is if the niches too small. Currently Distance or redline sniping is able to adequately perform in their niche without too much interference, Vehicles are able to perform there niche with some interference from AV nates, and so can installations. Meaning only the sniper rifle is the only traditional weapon that can even hold/maintain there niche role for real war points, other niche roles are vastly impotent. Also the forge gunning numbers I got was due to utilizing it as a sniper. So this game breaks down into just a 5 play styles that can produce/generate stable SP Assault Rifles Vehicle/installation usage (not dropships) Anti Vehicle (collection of AV, Forge, Swarm, since Vehicle kills gives you big points) Sniping Medic Everything else is very hard to keep their niche without falling into the AR world.
The other niche is the grenade launcher which was formerly filled by the mass driver, however the flaylock pistol is more accurate and does more damage while costing half the CPU and a grand total of 1-2 PG. The Flaylock pistol is completely superior to it's mass driver brother. I would also like to point out that the Flaylock Pistol currently dominates the AR until you hit the range where the flaylocks missle blows up in the air which is around 60m. |
Deluxe Edition
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Posted - 2013.07.08 03:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Deluxe Edition wrote:lol at your data to prove OPness taken from random pub matches. How about taking data from competitive enviroments such as planetary conquest where most teams are running almost a full squad of Duel Wield Core Flaylock pistols every match which are able to 3 shot all infantry (even the dreaded caladari logi with it's 700 shields.).
The gun is a boob tube, the average player might struggle with the weapon because they aim for the chest or are unable to lead shots, however give the gun to an above average player and they will become godlike. People keep saying this. I've posted consistently that as soon as someone posts data from PC, that shows this, I will concede that the FP is a problem for PC. Having said that, the vast majority of players play in random pubs. This means that PC games aren't that important for overall balance, because most players don't experience this game mode. I've said in many posts that the Flaylock has a high skill ceiling, which means precisely what you say here " however give the gun to an above average player and they will become godlike". Unlike the AR which is easymode right from the start.
You cannot balance weapons at the lowest denominator of players. doing so invites disaster such as the flaylock. Most PC corps have a policy against publicly posting our PC matches for 2 reasons: 1) the might give away team tactics, strategic placement of uplinks and positions. 2) We do not wish to cause harm to our opponents reputation. |
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Posted - 2013.07.08 03:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:
There's a little more you can get from this. First off, ARs kill 10 times as often as the very similar Scrambler rifle. Yeah, that's a big red flag.
Second, again, if a given weapon's "niche" is the entire game, then there's a problem and it's OP. The AR fits the bill perfectly here.
PC matches are equally not a good area to balance around because most players don't experience this.
Assault rifles have been in the game since it's inception, and with the permenent nature of skill point allocation it's not suprising that the majority of beta vets chose to spec into the known entity. This means that the vast majority of scrambler rifle users are either newer player to the game, or alts with less SP the a vets main. Both would be accurates reasons for the SR recieving less kills than the AR. Furthermore AR also has 2 varients of Officer weapons, the Balac (Which is an absolute beast), and the Krins (Which is more accurate and has a larger clip than the duvolle). Loosing access to these weapons is another reason why top end players with a focus on end game content (planetary conquest) would opt to go with the AR over the SR, whereas the SR does not have any officer varients. |
Deluxe Edition
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Posted - 2013.07.08 03:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:
Yes, these are all considerations. Which is why I don't claim that the AR is OP because of a small difference in kills. It's a huge difference in kills. Also, the shotgun, and MD have been in as long as I've been playing, yet their use is miniscule. yes, they are more of a niche weapon, as has been pointed out, but AR kills are literally 100 times more than shotgun kills in pub matches. That is not a balanced AR.
Shotguns have a hit detection issue. Many direct shots often go unregistered with the gun, and for a shotgun it doesn't have a very large spread. This makes it an incredibly hard weapon to use in post 1.2 gameplay where strafe speeds make scouts look like a dragon ball Z episode and heavies look like an NFL wide receiver running suicides.
The mass driver came into uprising heavily nerfed, and has sense been buffed. It's use increased for a while until it was discovered that the Flaylock was a superior weapon with more than half of the CPU/PG cost.
The Flaylock is a better weapon at CQC than the shotgun currently, and as a grenade launcher style weapon it easily beats out the MD especially when being duel weilded. |
Deluxe Edition
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Posted - 2013.07.08 04:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Yes the assault rifle is defo the best LW to use.. hands down. It will stay that way until the Scrambler Rifle, Combat Rifle, Rail Rifle, and Laser rifle are all balanced and have all of the variants (officer included) CCP intends to add.
ARs are preferred simply because they are the most complete (and well balanced) automatic firing weapon (most people's preferred playstyle).
Those 5 weapons, will, and should represent probably 70% of the kills in most matches when they are balanced. As they are the infantry vs infantry weapons you should expect to see in the battle field normally.
So yes... ARs are better than LRs and ScRs, I'll agree with that sentiment no problem. That's an issue with lack of weapon content more than anything.
However... it still doesn't address the fact that core flaylocks are too powerful. The metrics may not be showing it yet in pub matches, but thats due to the slow nature of the skill point system in this game. Regardless, they are far too powerful for what they do.. they completely invalidate both shotguns and mass drivers, and need to be changed.
And its always the same story... std flaylocks suck, adv flaylocks arent too shabby, and core flaylocks are lol. You've seen the posts, same as me. There is only one factor that really changes with those.. blast radius. Its need to be normalized, for the sake of balance. Maybe so. All I'm saying is that this is not borne out by evidence in pub matches, where nearly all players reside, yet. Again, I don't want to play Flaylock 514 any more than AR 514, but right now, it's all AR all the time. Imagine you are me for a second, and that CCP come to the forums and say "We have a super secret lab of monkeys that are trained to be perfect FPS users. They represent the very best in FPS ownage and only play for keeps. These monkeys have shown that weapon X is way too powerful (or not shown that weapon Y is way too powerful) So we're going to nerf/buff accordingly" The forums would explode. Players would rightly point out that this lab filled with Master FPS players doesn't represent the "live" game, and that balancing should occur with regards to the "live" game. That's basically my point regarding PC vs pubs. I can understand, and even empathize with you, if Flaylocks truly are such a problem there, but that isn't the game that the vast majority of players are actually playing - yet, and maybe never.
The big issue is the SP cost of investing in a weapon that starts off extremely weak not because of huge damage differences but because of splash damage increase among weapons. At the level 1 flaylock the splash damage is 1.0m, and because of the skill bonus by the time you reash core flaylocks the weapon has a spash radius of 2.5m a highly noticeable difference. So basically at low level the weapon feels considerable weaker and harder to use compared to what it does at lvl 5.
That's a lot of SP to put into a weapon that start off feeling extremely hard to use. |
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