damage, not radius.

Applying damage requires skill, applying damage through a radius does not. There is a difference between getting a bullseye with a dart and getting a bullseye with a shotgun.

However in Dust the two are equivalent.....

Damage and splash are not the same. Sorry if im not clear on your meaning. Max damage from explosives is fine though (except flaylock of course, always the rulebreaker) in fact max damage may need to be INcreased to justify a splash nerf, but i think damage needs to drop off, FAST. And so put skill back up where it belongs, no?

Try the plasma cannon. That weapon is hard enough already. If you remove the splash that will be just one more reason to never use it. I think you are wrong that it doesn't take skill for splash.... in fact it takes a lot of skill to throw a grenade exactly where you want it or put your mass driver shots where you want them.

I think it makes more sense to keep splash high and perhaps reducing direct damage slightly resulting in a more even distribution of damage across the blast radius, What you're advocating is turning explosives into Assault Rifles with a different skin. Weapons should have variety, and AOEs are designed to punish people from clumping together. ARs should still have the advantage if you're a skilled player. Tactics are supposed to play a huge role in the game, it's not just pure twitch like HALO.

Madness. Why not just remove sights alltogether and call in airstrikes? This is not what an fps is about

Spawn, bang, bounce.

These high splash radii, cannot breed the longevity CCP crave. Its just annoying for longer term players, perhaps because splash puts more down to chance...

Reign it in ccp? Im fed up with bouncing around on a sea of random boom.

Damage and splash are not the same. Sorry if im not clear on your meaning. Max damage from explosives is fine though (except flaylock of course, always the rulebreaker) in fact max damage may need to be INcreased to justify a splash nerf, but i think damage needs to drop off, FAST. And so put skill back up where it belongs, no?

No. Diluted madness. Why not just remove sights alltogether and call in airstrikes? This is not what an fps is about. Explosives should be explosives: Very damaging at close range

'just like an assault rifle' ?
Perspective
2m splash is way more than 2000 x bigger than an assault rifle bullet.

BEHOLD! "That one guy with the duvolleGäó", live and in natural habitat!

I am sorry that you got killed by a flaylock today instead of an AR.

H T F U

Explosives are fine.

Try the plasma cannon. That weapon is hard enough already. If you remove the splash that will be just one more reason to never use it. I think you are wrong that it doesn't take skill for splash.... in fact it takes a lot of skill to throw a grenade exactly where you want it or put your mass driver shots where you want them.

It takes skill to target with any weapon, but it takes much less skill to use splash damage. I just skilled into the mass driver for that very reason. Now I can almost blind fire and do damage if not get kills. At the very least I get a lot of assists because I have already weakened them with all the splash from just spamming the area. Does it take a little time to get used to how it fires - yes. Does that equal skill - no. Flaylock is even worse.

QFT

Also, the explosive weapons actually take more skill to use than the AR. In fact the AR is clearly the easiest light weapon to get kills with in the game. Hitscan weapons do not take much skill.

...Now I can almost blind fire and do damage if not get kills. At the very least I get a lot of assists because I have already weakened them with all the splash from just spamming the area...

Flaylock is even worse.

This is exactly how an area denial weapon is supposed to function. You're supposed to do light-to-moderate damage across an area. People can easily avoid it by moving out of the area. It's called a tactic--have one teammate soften up an area and then have your marksmen shoot them up when they leave cover. It prevents people from clustering together and forces teams to separate and spread out. It's more fun to play games where there's more thinking/planning/teamwork to it than just strafing, and bunny-hopping around with AR's.

Argument invalidated. Flaylocks are hard as f-¦ck to use effectively.
Oh, and yeah, the rest of your arguments is basically "I can get kills with this weapon" and "its not an AR nerf it!"

Does no one remember when the MD got its splash nerfed? There was chaos in the streets. Doomsayers screeching that the only weapon viable was the AR now.

Nerfing splash on all weapons would be the end of the world according to those doomsayers.

Remember when the laser took a huge damage nerf and got an iron sight with crazy lens flare where you couldn't see where you're shooting? Remember when the HMG got a severe damage/range nerf to the point where you could kill a heavy with an SMG?

Spraying and praying with a hitscan weapon is far easier than any of the explosive weapons.

Argument invalidated. Flaylocks are hard as f-¦ck to use effectively.

Oh, and yeah, the rest of your arguments is basically "I can get kills with this weapon" and "its not an AR nerf it!"

oh my god, no, you blueberry, stop asking to nerf things. ask for a buff on its counter or its equivilant weapon in the same class.

I love how when something that isn't an AR gets consistent kills they're OP or don't require skill.

CCP, please Nerf all assault rifles until these guys are happy. Then buff the flaylocks even more likewise. Obviously those should be the primary weapons in the game and nothing else should have any advantage over them.

I love how when anyone brings up flaylocks or mass drivers then the trolls immediately chime with their anti AR spill.

CCP, please Nerf all assault rifles until these guys are happy. Then buff the flaylocks even more likewise. Obviously those should be the primary weapons in the game and nothing else should have any advantage over them.

EDIT: Better yet, remove the ARs completely. Apparently the so called "AR rambos" have no place in the Eve/Dust universe. Their play style seems to be offensive and somehow low class compared to the elegant tactics of rocket pistols and grenade launchers.

Applying damage requires skill, applying damage through a radius does not. There is a difference between getting a bullseye with a dart and getting a bullseye with a shotgun.

Fine, give shields a big buff against splash damage.

But ARs are fine now. And flaylocks too, no need to buff or nerf them.

Are you some kind of master ruseman?

so because it isn't your favorite playstyle you want it nerfed? typical AR scrub thinking. go away or get good. none of the good players seem to complain about splash radius.

I love how when anyone brings up flaylocks or mass drivers then the trolls immediately chime with their anti AR spill.

CCP, please Nerf all assault rifles until these guys are happy. Then buff the flaylocks even more likewise. Obviously those should be the primary weapons in the game and nothing else should have any advantage over them.

EDIT: Better yet, remove the ARs completely. Apparently the so called "AR rambos" have no place in the Eve/Dust universe. Their play style seems to be offensive and somehow low class compared to the elegant tactics of rocket pistols and grenade launchers.

No

Weapons with puny weak explosives just feel like useless toys, and making a whole category of weapons feel extremely gamey and weak makes for a bad shooter.

Explosives are dangerous, they should hurt, and they should kill you. I don't give a crap about all of these people's "skillz" arguments. Modern and certainly futuristic weaponry isn't meant to be a show of skill, it is meant to do it's job efficiently. Skill has no merit in a weapons balance argument to begin with. Compare the numbers and the weapons applications and tactics, not your epeen to some other faceless avatar's epeen.

Ha, or 'No'

'Yes' explosive hurt - so do bullets -your argument is null. Above 'Shooter', this thing is a 'game', and it is the type of game which rewards you by feeling like there is some degree of control over your destiny - i.e. skill

"Skill has no merit in a weapons balance argument to begin with." ?
LOL! - You dont even want to be required to face the right direction to get your kill !

Have fun believing you skill matters when you get barraged by explosives.

CCP ^ ( I think he may have forgotten to add "or run over by an LAV" ) please fix this before it just becomes a pasttime of the skill- and care-less?

Translation: Complaining

If you want to complain about something that is statistically, or technically broken, you might be bringing something to the table, If you don't want to deal with these factors then why are you playing such a game?

There are games that will constrict and limit the actions of everyone so they can play by a small set of parameters and freely compare skill/epeen.

At this point I'd like to give a friendly high five to all of the flaylock, MD, contact grenade wielding pyros out there. I'm not forgetting you mad bomber remote explosive guys either, and last but not least all of the murder taxi drivers out there!

Thank you, for extracting the tears and whines of those that just can't deal with it, for making children and man boys around the world throw temper tantrums at their televisions for not having the game go their way.

Thank you! Keep up the chaos of battle! Make fragile egos cry! Get blown to pieces against more organized forces!

Salute!

Applying damage requires skill, applying damage through a radius does not. There is a difference between getting a bullseye with a dart and getting a bullseye with a shotgun.

Have to say that using a mass driver at range takes a fair bit of skill as you have to range and evelate your weapon to start to get hits where as you just point and shoot with an AR. Short range MD's are easier to use but your not really doing much damage at all to shield tankers who is almost everyone at the moment. You have to use a flux, MD or grenade MD to get one on one kills with caldari's for example.

MD's are situational also so you have to think tactically regarding cover and high ground but that puts you at risk from snipers etc. So I would say that the MD is definitely a different play stile than using AR's. I would suggest you try using them to see how on some maps against spread out opponents how hard it is to use effectively.

They are also much much weaker than the were in last build imo.

Ah, some sense. Perhaps cutting splash on all weapons is an overreaction. Grenade splash makes large parts of the map unspawnable, flaylock damage and reload speed are possibly affecting my judgement. I would be very happy if grens and flaylocks were reeled in to allow other playstyles to flourish.

Everyone before him said pretty much the same thing, but since he is in your corp he has sense?

Splash is fine on all weapons. MD is probably the most balanced and "skilled" weapon in the game now. I wreck at mid range, if I use cover to my advantage. Long range takes some serious skill. And anything with more splash than an EXO (which is all proto and assualt varients,) will usually kill the user before the target in CQC.

The flay needs a RoF decrease to cut down on its "LOL1200DPS" effect.

Contact grenades are BS, and the proto grenades are a bit heavy on splash, but CCP has ignored that for a while now.

Allow a scrub to clean up your scrambled mind a little

Though you are so wrong in so many ways, there isn't really the time, example is the best enlightenment, so:

1) I don't use an AR

ok, so now you are on the backfoot, how about another example:

2) imagine splash damage taken to the extreme, then everytime we press fire, everybody dies. Understand?

This, my brother is why people feel that a large splash=no skill
You see now?

Oh my god it's attack of the blueberries who want everything nerfed. Would you prefer that I have to hit you in the face with a mass driver to hurt you? If you cant dodge a slow grenade that you literally see coming at you, then you dont know what cover is and im not sure why you play this game.

Let me tell you how to not get killed by a mass driver, you shield tanked ******: get in hard cover and dont stop moving in a circle like im shooting an AR at you. Also, it's six shots, at roughly 1 shot per second and you cant dodge a single shot? Your controller is obviously defective.

I play with some of the best people in the game and they have never complained about the mass driver because theyre good. If you want CCP to cater to the lowest common denominator, please say that right here:


"I _______, am an awful player and my controller is broken; please nerf splash damage to 1m on everything except my core locus grenades because I use those."

Spawn, bang, bounce.

These high splash radii, cannot breed the longevity CCP crave. Its just annoying for longer term players, perhaps because splash puts more down to chance...

Reign it in ccp? Im fed up with bouncing around on a sea of random boom.

Get in hard cover? Haha! You mean a logi lav? Anyway, You muppet, read the thread, grenades and flaylocks are the main problem, general consensus

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678

buster that doesnt mean **** and you know it

You muppet, read your own title and OP of your own self serving thread, and tell me why anyone looking to do anything other than to troll it would apply the dignity of thoughtfully trying to speak to you in the first place, oh ye of grand judgement, and decider of skill.

Some other guy said it best, "stupid thread is stupid"

Argument invalidated. Flaylocks are hard as f-¦ck to use effectively.

Oh, and yeah, the rest of your arguments is basically "I can get kills with this weapon" and "its not an AR nerf it!"

No they didnt all say that but someone had to take the cheap shot re corp and u stepped up.

Anyway who do you think u are, mr 'Splash is fine on all weapons'
If you say splash is fine it must be, oh, wait, you say it is too much on a grenade, like i was saying.. ok.

I also get lots of kills with scrambler rifle. I also get kills with SMG (which is easier and more effective than the AR in close quarters because you can easily hip fire spray and kill. Are those a problem too? Am I unskilled and low level because my ammo doesn't explode on impact?

First line of defense on every thread where the flaylock is under fire is to immediately throw out the "flaylocks take skill, ARs don't" card. If duvolles and TARs are the issue why don't we just take them out of the game? I'm certainly fine with that. Or AR users could just give back the same "learn some tactics and HTFU" rebuttal.

I also get lots of kills with scrambler rifle. I also get kills with SMG (which is easier and more effective than the AR in close quarters because you can easily hip fire spray and kill. Are those a problem too? Am I unskilled and low level because my ammo doesn't explode on impact?

First line of defense on every thread where the flaylock is under fire is to immediately throw out the "flaylocks take skill, ARs don't" card. If duvolles and TARs are the issue why don't we just take them out of the game? I'm certainly fine with that. Or AR users could just give back the same "learn some tactics and HTFU" rebuttal.

Applying damage requires skill, applying damage through a radius does not. There is a difference between getting a bullseye with a dart and getting a bullseye with a shotgun.

Been here since closed beta. I've seen some really OP things. (Dumbfire swarms, indestructible heavies, ect.)

Also played several PC matches a day for over a month. I was one of the only people using a mass driver in PC at the time. Been using a MD since early chromosome, this is the most balanced it has ever been.

I visit these forums near daily. I know who is bad, decent, and good for the most part, and the general concensus from decent-good players is that the MD is one of the most balanced weapons in the game.

Go play PC. Then laugh at the contact grenades and flaylocks as they destroy you. Splash isn't the issues. Its good players abusing broken mechanics.

(^^ Don't take the above as a dig at you. I've never seen you play. I'm just speaking for what I've seen from the more established members of the community.)

Maybe I could add my opinion on "what skill is" or agree with everyone who thinks the same as me like you have. This just sounds like a bunch of backpeddaling and rewording on your part just to have an argument over a rant thread.

I quoted your OP. All there is to this thread is right there.

Maybe I could add my opinion on "what skill is" or agree with everyone who thinks the same as me like you have. This just sounds like a bunch of backpeddaling and rewording on your part just to have an argument over a rant thread.

I quoted your OP. All there is to this thread is right there.

Oh man, I feel like this has been the only topic of discussion on the forums since 1.2 dropped. I guess I'll continue to partake, but I'll try a little harder this time, because I think mostly people are talking past each other and not explaining their side of the argument thoroughly enough.

To whoever asked, the AR always comes up in these threads because there has been a recent rash of AR elitism since the splash damage fix. I'm not accusing OP of committing this, but I have seen AR users claiming their gun takes the most skill to use and 'gun game' (a phrase that keeps cropping up in these discussions), while talking down on the Mass Driver and other explosives, calling them skill-less noob tubes.

I want to spell out for these people the type of skill it takes to effectively use the Mass Driver. I think that it's a weapon that you can learn the basic uses of in a day or two, but to perform the more complicated maneuvers require months and months of practice. I've used it now for over 5 months, and I certainly would not call myself a master.

Here are a few situations you run into using the Mass Driver, and the skill to be successful at them. When I use the term 'hit' I refer to a splash hit, because as anyone who uses the Mass Driver will testify, direct hits happen rarely and cannot be counted on consistently. That said:

Hitting an enemy that is stationary or moving 5-20 meters away, you are on either level ground or you have the high ground:
Takes relatively little skill, players who just picked up the MD should have no trouble.

Hitting an enemy that is stationary at 30+ meters away:
Takes a moderate amount of skill/practice, will take new users multiple shots to correctly calibrate the distance

Hitting an enemy that is moving at 30+ meters away:
Take a large amount of skill to do, even the experienced tend to misjudge

Hitting an enemy that is moving at 30+ meters away, repeatedly, enough times to kill them from full health to zero:
Nearly impossible. I am always extremely proud of myself when I can pull this off.

Notice that I didn't mention situations where the target is above you. I didn't mention it because it's mostly a wash, and the MD user will be forced to either disengage completely or look for another avenue of attack.

Sorry this was a little long winded. TL;DR: Think what it actually takes to use a Mass Driver before calling it a 'noob tube'.

Uh, last I checked we have airships and Orbital Bombardments. What game are you playing?

Look, people who are excellent FPS marksmen, and do well with the twitch gameplay should absolutely have a big advantage (and they do), but there should be viable roles for everyone. For example, the MD should excel in area denial and be capable of shelling out low-to-moderate damage over an area, and be totally screwed in a head on 1v1 against someone with skill using an assault/scrambler rifle. That's balanced--the people with skill still have the advantage, and people who are less skilled can still have a role in a squad where they're exerting pressure on an area in the battlefield. Dust needs MORE tactical gameplay, weapons need ROLES beyond just shooting people in the face. Dust is MORE than just an FPS.

I agree exactly with what you are saying. Low to moderate damage is exactly what the splash weapons should deal, but some of them (core flaylock) are doing more than that and can go 1v1 with even a heavy with an HMG.

Spawn, bang, bounce.

These high splash radii, cannot breed the longevity CCP crave. Its just annoying for longer term players, perhaps because splash puts more down to chance...

Reign it in ccp? Im fed up with bouncing around on a sea of random boom.

Spawn, bang, bounce.

These high splash radii, cannot breed the longevity CCP crave. Its just annoying for longer term players, perhaps because splash puts more down to chance...

Reign it in ccp? Im fed up with bouncing around on a sea of random boom.

Spawn, bang, bounce.

These high splash radii, cannot breed the longevity CCP crave. Its just annoying for longer term players, perhaps because splash puts more down to chance...

Reign it in ccp? Im fed up with bouncing around on a sea of random boom.

I want CCP to balance the game so that it's fair and fun only for me. I want everyone to use a specific and predictable game mechanic instead of a wide variety of fun to use weapons because I would rather blame the game than point out my own room for improvement as a player.

I hope that like minded people join me in this salty tear lubed circle jerk and the developers bend over backwards as if I'm entitled to it.

Run with a squad who uses uplinks (and by "uses" I mean "places in tactically viable locations").

The OP basically says "I don't want anything except my preferred type of weapon in the game", decreasing diversity and player choice cannot breed the longevity CCP craves.

Translation:

Cosgar, again, stock reply and poor attempt to be funny. Translation of your post in the same spirit? Ahem, ok: i have severe confidence issues and need to play a first person shooter because it gives me a sense of power in a world that doesnt seem to appreciate me. I regurgitate others posts out of context because i have no imagination and lack the ability to be original. If i regurgitate others posts inappropriately, i do so in the hope that my friends in dust will like them and make me feel better about myself. Failing that, at least i labelled someone a sissy, and that makes me feel hard

Applying damage requires skill, applying damage through a radius does not. There is a difference between getting a bullseye with a dart and getting a bullseye with a shotgun.

Translation:

Ok, So,

Thankfully the flaylock took it hard (now only hardcore users exploit this niche weapon.)

Massdrivers of course are OP (don't bother guys - half of the players using one is all the evidence CCP need).

Damage done by these should drop off much more rapidly with distance IMO. Especially if a shield is still active.
Does anyone know the existing formula for splash damage drop-off? Is it REALLY just a direct damage/splash (2 step thing?)