I won't both putting the math here but you can do it in your head. adding 1/2 the value of these as a hot fix, will just barely help make armor tanking a viable option. right now its abit ridiculous

the reactive plates especially need a major buff, those things are almost pointless. but they are still a good idea.
reactive plates should be giving you at least 30-45 armor and heal at a rate of 2 hp per second, with the 1% movement speed penalty.

I won't both putting the math here but you can do it in your head. adding 1/2 the value of these as a hot fix, will just barely help make armor tanking a viable option. right now its abit ridiculous

the reactive plates especially need a major buff, those things are almost pointless. but they are still a good idea.
reactive plates should be giving you at least 30-45 armor and heal at a rate of 2 hp per second, with the 1% movement speed penalty.

what would happen if armor plates where moved to be H modules?

\o/ more wild numbers and changes. Anything close to doubling numbers would bring the letters O and P together!

Example from above...

enhanced armour plat + complex rep = 174hp + 10ar/s -5% speeeed

Dat there be crazy talk! your effectivly strapping a scout to your chest

Why not?

I am not aware that it takes a great deal of damage to kill a scout.

\o/ more wild numbers and changes. Anything close to doubling numbers would bring the letters O and P together!

Example from above...

enhanced armour plat + complex rep = 174hp + 10ar/s -5% speeeed

Dat there be crazy talk! your effectivly strapping a scout to your chest

what would happen if armor plates where moved to be H modules?

you for get 1 thing. everything does close to double damage to armor. even doubling the numbers on all armor modules wouldn't make it balanced.

Because this is really double the damage- http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/64862/1/damageprofiles.jpg

The whole shiled versus armor debate is very difficult. I understand how some people see it as unbalanced but I can also see how it is close to balance.

1 Flux kills shields but extenders have no speed penalty.
Shields have do not regen while under fire and armor does.
Shields have a short delay before they bounce back armor does not (Because you are dead).
Armor can be repped by multiple Logis while shields can only be transferred by a LLAV.
Armor can be repped by Nanohives but shields regen faster than armor reps. Usually.
Armor tankers can fit damage mods and a tank while shields only have open low slots.
Armor tankers are slower but can rely on logi and hives to augment their survivability but shields have to go it alone.

I see both sides of the argument. I am a armor man, I like to run active armor tanks. I can be fully repped in about 10 seconds with an advanced suit with three complex reps. I have low armor HP but it bounces back quickly. I like the reactive plates because I can take a little more damage and still be repped in a short time. There are ups and downs but to me the pros and cons are similar enough to be close to balance. I would like to see some more HP or rep/s on the reactive plates but I am fairly happy with how they are now.

Because this is really double the damage- http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/64862/1/damageprofiles.jpg

I won't bother putting the math here but you can do it in your head. adding 1/2 the value of these as a hot fix, will just barely help make armor tanking a viable option. right now its abit ridiculous

the reactive plates especially need a major buff, those things are almost pointless. but they are still a good idea.
reactive plates should be giving you at least 60 armor and heal at a rate of 4 hp per second, with the 1% movement speed penalty.

EDIT:

all armor values should be doubled. all armor plates, repair modules, reactive plates (except the penalty), ferroscale, all these should have their values and bonuses doubled.

chromebreaker, you have responed to several of my threads, and i find you to be a very reasonable and inquisitive individual. however, in this case i must disagree. behold:

sheild enegizer's 60% sheild recharge rate, 6% penalty to max shield. no skill requirement...lol



besides with all the weapons that are designed to do 50% more damage to armor, armor tanking must have a purpose. people get mad at flaylocks (which need a slight increase in blast radius, but a longer reload speed because people spam them to easily), MD, HMGs (although utter garbage still do more to armor than sheidls) SMGs, grenades,...etc, etc

these weapons are doing their job well. the problem lies in the fact that for the cost the armor tanking doesn't compensate for the additional damage that is being taken, and for a movement penalty like that its rediculous

LOL, you serious dude ? You want your basic reactive plate to give 60 armor AND 4 hp rep/ sec
Reactive plates were never meant to be good at both role. They're clearly intended to be a small HP buff and small repair buff. For those who lack low slots. Not be uber powerfull two-in-one miracle product from your usual tv shopping show.

Doubling armor modules wont do anything except switch the balance fully. There are a lot more subtle changes to be made :

- Not having plate penalty reducing base movement.
- Switching some modules from low to high (ferroscale or reactive, PG extension, regs)

Now, regarding the regen debate, armor is NOT supposed to be able to reach the same regen shield has. But on the other hand, you're supposed to get more HP for the same investment. so, having 10 or more HP\s armor repairers is just not realistic.

A "new" high slot armor module would be good. Possibly a passive hardener/damage resist plate (infantry version of energized plating I guess).

There's already a low-slot shield module, and they're adding another (power diagnostic - gives shield %, shield recharge, and powergrid). So, perhaps they should probably add two high slot armor modules...

The new plates just helps anyone that isnt a pure armor tank,quite sadden by armor update

Everyone here is still missing the point and it's just sad.

Increasing the statistics of the new plates will only FURTHER BENEFIT SHIELD TANKERS while slightly benefitting armor tanking.

Some L-slod modules need to be transfered to H-slots in order to actually balance things to prevent anyone from taking advantage of everything, but that's never going to happen.

Shield and Armor tanking will NEVER be balanced, and not only because "CCP loves shields". Just deal with it. Me and my 550 e-hp are, so should you.

I better have 5 high slots.

Here a more comprehensive post that the earlier ones I've made on my alt Colonel Killar
Armor Reps and the reps on Reactives are fine but the problem is how slow armor is and how little armor HP is given.
It's not that I want my armor to regen in ten seconds It should take a few minutes but I should be harder to kill compared to a shield tanker one on one but if his buddy comes afterwards then I'll be screwed but if he and his friend take turs their superior regen will allow them to continue coming back at full health

But for in-game values
Don't mess with any regen values

Plate Type-----------------------------------HP-------------------------------------Movement Penalty

Basic Armor Plates 100 3%

Enhanced Armor Plates 150 5%

Complex Armor Plates 200 7%

Basic Ferroscale Plates 40 N/A

Enhanced Ferroscale Plates 80 N/A

Complex Ferroscale Plates 120 N/A

Basic Reactive Plates 50 2%

Enhanced Reactive Plates 90 4%

Complex Reactive Plates 140 6%

^^this is a brilliant idea. in fact i applaud it. reparing armor by percentage is a great idea. and those values for the reactive plates gives them a purpose as right now they are inferior tech, but if this^^ were implimented things could improve. with careful monitering this could temporarily fix the shield tanking problem.


againt yes shield tankers can tank harder using these, but the complex damage mods combined with this^^ and scrambler rifle tech can imporve over all galente performance

I won't bother putting the math here but you can do it in your head. adding 1/2 the value of these as a hot fix, will just barely help make armor tanking a viable option. right now its abit ridiculous

the reactive plates especially need a major buff, those things are almost pointless. but they are still a good idea.
reactive plates should be giving you at least 60 armor and heal at a rate of 4 hp per second, with the 1% movement speed penalty.

EDIT:

all armor values should be doubled. all armor plates, repair modules, reactive plates (except the penalty), ferroscale, all these should have their values and bonuses doubled.

To be honest, I think they should keep reactive plates as they are and make them a high-slot module, since armor tankers still don't have a high slot armor module.

Just a thought.

EDIT: Since I completely neglected to read your edit:

I disagree with doubling any of the plates, but rather scale them with their movement penalty, this is hardly an original idea, but it goes like this.

Basic armor plates- 68 armor, 3% penalty
Enhanced armor plates- 87 armor, 5% penalty

But after you change it to scale with the movement penalty

Basic armor plates- 68 armor, 3% penalty
Enhanced armor plates- 108 armor, 5% penalty
Complex armor plates- 216 armor, 10% penalty

I am going off of complete memory, and I can't remember the current complex armor plate amount, but you get the idea, the 3% to 5% penalty increase is a 1.6 multiplier, so you multiply the 68 armor bonus by 1.6 and get the above amount, then the 5% to 10% increase is a 2 multiplier, so you do just that.

And I think the ferroscale plates are fine as is.

The worst thing about the new plates is their drain on CPU & PG is way more than it should be. I understand that armor is supposed to be harder to get through at the expense of speed, though I don't see that much of a difference. The new plates with the ridiculous consumption of PG makes anything but regular plates not worth running. The only use I see for them is to put the Ferroscale on a Gallente scout so your speedie, survivable, and a surprise to the people trying to kill you.

It is frustrating that these plates (long awaited by me at least) are a huge let down, because at proto level the CPU and PG consumption used by the plates make them bad alternatives at best un-useable most of the time.

What if a AR Shield and armor tank then, Is the 1 question I have

well they sacrifice damage mods, for the sake of tanking. caldari can do it, minmintar can do it, galente can do it... but caldari do it better.

the core issue is the base stats of the galente verses the base stats of the caldari. the galente suits can't tank as hard because they dnt have enough CPU/PG, slots and base armor to compensate for the disparity. moreover, their base movement speed should be higher than a caldari's by 33% so that after armor tanking starts their speed reduction isn't to the point of becoming a heavy.*



*this is a discusion about medium frames only however. as the heavy suit has a variety of tasks it is desinged to perform but still plays a support role it needs to be treated differently as well. i discuss this in the thread entitled "heavies should have resistance to small armrs fire by 30%"

\o/ more wild numbers and changes. Anything close to doubling numbers would bring the letters O and P together!

Example from above...

enhanced armour plat + complex rep = 174hp + 10ar/s -5% speeeed

Dat there be crazy talk! your effectivly strapping a scout to your chest

you for get 1 thing. everything does close to double damage to armor. even doubling the numbers on all armor modules wouldn't make it balanced.

if you have 2 complex armor repairs thats only 20 hp per second. a caldari milita suit gets 20 shield back by default. the shiled enegizer's make it so that shields come at impossible speeds. and seriously, doudes running around with 500+ shields that regenarate almost insantly and that are resistant to almost everything can't be good. especially since they can also armor tank because armor is a low slot acomplishment.


everyone screams "OMG...THROW FLUX NADES DATZ WAT DEY DER 4...HERPIDDY DERP DERP". seriously, flux grenades are not that effective because its hit or miss, and these guys have no speed penalty they are moving rediculously fast thanks to the movement speed increase that CCP ninja'd into the game. worse yet we have the fact that even from full depletion shields recover extremely fast.

scrambler rifles do wonders on shields but the semiauto one is hit or miss because people move so fast with their shields, the only real way to combate shields is to use an assault scrambler rifle, because the regular AR outguns the semi-auto everytime (which makes sense, the problem lies in that scramblers are the only practical way to combat the shield tanking)


even if the values of all armor mods were doubled armor repairs slower and takes 50% more damage to everything. in fact these values should be doubled.


reactive plates the basic give you 15 armor and repair your armor at 1 hp per second. thats pathetic. i round from an HMG (one bullet) does more than that.

reactive plates in order to be worth anything need to be at least quadrupled otherwise there is no point to having them in the game. (60 armor and 4hp per second) keeping the 1% movement penalty the same.

complex armor plates when 2 doubled would give you 230 additional armor. but think all the explosives and plasma weaponry does extra damage to armor, so it would on begin to help break even.

the solution to the armor verse shield problem lies in give great values to armor modules. (the reactive plates have to be quadrupled or quintipled to even be consideed useful)

60 armor and 4hp a second, with a 1% movement penalty at basic? Im an armor tanker and even I think that is op as fk.

60 armor and 4hp a second, with a 1% movement penalty at basic? Im an armor tanker and even I think that is op as fk.

it's only 2hp/s not 4 hp

Was messing around with fits the other day and I discovered either a glitch or a perk to ferroscale plates. Using my minmitar logi fit and my dragonfly scout fit I noticed something strange. I put a basic armor plate on both dropsuits, giving me a 3% movement penalty. I then began stacking ferroscale plates, both basic and enhanced. The results were the same, each time I added a ferroscale plate, a little of my movement penalty was diminished. Eventually I was down to a 2% movement penalty, and had an extra 130 armor. Anyone else notice this?

The only thing thats going to help armor is if CCP gets their head out of their ass and fixes dropsuit skill bonuses.

I won't bother putting the math here but you can do it in your head. adding 1/2 the value of these as a hot fix, will just barely help make armor tanking a viable option. right now its abit ridiculous

the reactive plates especially need a major buff, those things are almost pointless. but they are still a good idea.
reactive plates should be giving you at least 60 armor and heal at a rate of 4 hp per second, with the 1% movement speed penalty.

EDIT:

all armor values should be doubled. all armor plates, repair modules, reactive plates (except the penalty), ferroscale, all these should have their values and bonuses doubled.

+1

Im a heavy and ignore all the armor plates.

+1

Im a heavy and ignore all the armor plates.

LOL, you serious dude ? You want your basic reactive plate to give 60 armor AND 4 hp rep/ sec
Reactive plates were never meant to be good at both role. They're clearly intended to be a small HP buff and small repair buff. For those who lack low slots. Not be uber powerfull two-in-one miracle product from your usual tv shopping show.

Doubling armor modules wont do anything except switch the balance fully. There are a lot more subtle changes to be made :

- Not having plate penalty reducing base movement.
- Switching some modules from low to high (ferroscale or reactive, PG extension, regs)

Now, regarding the regen debate, armor is NOT supposed to be able to reach the same regen shield has. But on the other hand, you're supposed to get more HP for the same investment. so, having 10 or more HP\s armor repairers is just not realistic.

Why?

Because you realize while your fighting other suits your ability to move in and out of cover quickly is probably one of your most important skills, If you load up on plates that means your going to get to cover that % slower, and because your FOV is less then your heavy suit hitbox IE your heavy suit is firing from beside a wall then takes fire and moves its body fully behind said wall you will be taking that % more dmg before your Hitbox is fully behind cover, that % of hit based fire is MORE then the amount of tank you are going to get out of the Plates!

that is the problem, if you move 10% slower and you need to move your body behind a wall OB is going to take you 10% more time to get there, and seeing as how the plates are not absorbing 10% more damage for the Heavy suit you end up handicapping yourself!!

MATH people MATH!

BTW this should be its own thread as to WHY doing armor plates in any major capacity as a heavy is Worthless!

Its far less noticeable with the faster suits because the enemy weapon ROF is the constant! see?

Silly OP, these armour plates are designed for shield tankers, didn't you not know that?

If they made them any use for Armour Tankers that would not be fair, now would it.

Because you realize while your fighting other suits your ability to move in and out of cover quickly is probably one of your most important skills, If you load up on plates that means your going to get to cover that % slower, and because your FOV is less then your heavy suit hitbox IE your heavy suit is firing from beside a wall then takes fire and moves its body fully behind said wall you will be taking that % more dmg before your Hitbox is fully behind cover, that % of hit based fire is MORE then the amount of tank you are going to get out of the Plates!

that is the problem, if you move 10% slower and you need to move your body behind a wall OB is going to take you 10% more time to get there, and seeing as how the plates are not absorbing 10% more damage for the Heavy suit you end up handicapping yourself!!

MATH people MATH!

BTW this should be its own thread as to WHY doing armor plates in any major capacity as a heavy is Worthless!

Its far less noticeable with the faster suits because the enemy weapon ROF is the constant! see?

Because you realize while your fighting other suits your ability to move in and out of cover quickly is probably one of your most important skills, If you load up on plates that means your going to get to cover that % slower, and because your FOV is less then your heavy suit hitbox IE your heavy suit is firing from beside a wall then takes fire and moves its body fully behind said wall you will be taking that % more dmg before your Hitbox is fully behind cover, that % of hit based fire is MORE then the amount of tank you are going to get out of the Plates!

that is the problem, if you move 10% slower and you need to move your body behind a wall OB is going to take you 10% more time to get there, and seeing as how the plates are not absorbing 10% more damage for the Heavy suit you end up handicapping yourself!!

MATH people MATH!

BTW this should be its own thread as to WHY doing armor plates in any major capacity as a heavy is Worthless!

Its far less noticeable with the faster suits because the enemy weapon ROF is the constant! see?

basic, this is another good reason. you can start the post ill respond to it.

another is simply the fact that i doesnt increase your life expectance by any significant length of time. if i had 2 complex armor plates, thats 230 hp... a militia AR does a dps of 425 so i survive .5 of a second longer than if i didnt have it.
but my actual life expectancy decreases because realistically:
1. when enemies see a heavy they all concentrate fire on him.
2. your surviva time underfire do to your inate low monbility eans you only take 1-2 more shots from an AR.

it has its damage reduced to 385

as to your second point get a logi ?

How about high slot armor hardeners?

Too many armor tankers just want a straight buff but I think with some tweaks balance is closer than it appears.

These reactive plates NEED a buff, but people are saying quadruple AND give 10 hp/s, this is is just plain insanity.

Moving mods will help: Shield Regs should be a high, PG/CPU should be both (to me).

Shields NEED a penalty, they really do. This is a subject of its own.

Reppers need a buff but not crazy: 2,4,8 maybe 3,6,10.

Plates need a buff too but taking it slow, maybe 130 for a complex (dbl that of a complex shield).

Not even mentioning armor and repair from outside one self.

\o/ more wild numbers and changes. Anything close to doubling numbers would bring the letters O and P together!

Example from above...

enhanced armour plat + complex rep = 174hp + 10ar/s -5% speeeed

Dat there be crazy talk! your effectivly strapping a scout to your chest

How about high slot armor hardeners?

Excuse me I'm trying to commute. I don't appreciate almost wetting myself thanks!

Edit: On topic! The numbers need a little adjustment for sure, but the ONLY way to fix armour is to put reactive and ferroscale in the highs to stop shield tankers using them. Problem solved. The numbers should be high enough so it's an attractive alternative to just throwing on some complex shields.

Having different plates in different slots is inconsistent and feels wrong. Anyway shield tankers should be able to use armor modules just as armor tankers can use shield modules.

How? We have the same equivalent for shields with the regulators and rechargers in lows. Move plates or reppers to highs and it's fixed.

In a recent dev blog the damage bonuses against armor and shield were shown. (I think the dev blog was released around July 8 roughly give or take 7 days.)

All explosives were shown to do 120% damage to armor and projectile weapons did roughly 110% damage to armor etc. Nothing did more than 120% damage to armor. ARs did roughly 90% damage to armor if I remember correctly.

The basic reactive plates need there repping speed increased by 1 hp/sec

The advanced reactive plates need there repping speed increased by 2 hp/sec

The proto version needs the repping speed increased by 1 hp/sec

I don't seem to have problems with the other plates states. However the ferroscale and reactive plates should also be available in the high slots as well as low slots.

if its quadrupled it would become 4hp/sec but even that is not alot.

How do you not see a problem? Currently all armour modules are in the low slots, and both reactive and ferroscale plates are outmatched easily by basic armour plates or complex reppers. Complex ferroscale sound nice but their PG/CPU usage is way too high to make them an option over two sets of basic plates.

The new modules should be put into high slots and tweaked a little, so they're actually a viable solution.

You may also find this interesting.

If I remember correctly the complex ferroscale plates take less CPU but a bit more PG than a complex shield extender and give a bit less armor. To me they seem balanced. Except that you cant have ferroscale plates taking way more CPU and PG and giving way more armor compared to complex shield extenders currently.(that's my only problem).

The plates are better if combined with normal armor plates or reactive plates. Though others might think otherwise.

[quote=RINON1
How? We have the same equivalent for shields with the regulators and rechargers in lows. Move plates or reppers to highs and it's fixed.

The actual benefit of ferroscale plates is that they cost less to use (CPU/PG wise) and give you roughly the same amount of HP compared to shield extenders while not slowing you down. Thus as a result usually you will not need CPU and PG enhancer modules. That's if you use basic modules with basic suits and adv modules with adv suits etc and assuming you have level 5 passive skills that boost CPU and PG along with the weapons you equip with level 5 skills reducing there CPU/PG cost. This may have been CCPs line of thinking.

Basic armor plates may slow you down slightly, however I do think the speed penalty does escalate too fast as the modules go from basic to proto.

Why Increase reps? I'm just interested why you would say that.

Let's face it ccp can't fix **** and dust is going to be caned might as well play good games like battlefield.

shields have a slight delay before reping, but once they do, they recover at enormus rates 20+ hp/s.

if i have 400 shields and they are depleted after my 3-4 second own time, and my hp heals at 20 per second in 24 seconds my shields are full

if i have 400 armor and i am at 0 armor (and still alive), with two 4 complex armor repairers i heal at 20 hp/s, so i get to 400 in 20 seconds.


may look balanced but there are several things to keep in mind:

1. 20 hp/s for sheilds is a basic level and can be increased, (with shield enegizers you can heal shield at almost 50 hp/s)
2. this is assuming i have complex level amor repairers. even with proficiency it doesn't equal the sheids superiority in this matter
3. when shields are gone you have armor, when armor is gone your dead.
4. due to high dps of most guns under direct fire this will not impact longevity.

Okay then leave...

this is my point^^. than in the most extreme case (using a proto amarr heavy, or proto galente) you can baerly break even with shields on a militia suit.


basically if it takes max skills for armor reping to get even with militia level base shield repairing (when unaltered) then there is a serious problem.

no its damage is still 425 because of the bonus 10% give all weapons.

Your maths are a little wonky which is why it looks balanced. Please tell me how you can fit 4 complex reppers and have 400hp? I have all armour skills to 5 and I use two basic plates. I get 405 armour with skills included. 4 complex reppers would give you 20hp/s repair rate (plus the 25% from the skill required to use them) BUT your HP would be terribad. Shields CAN do this though, and have more than 400hp WITH 20hp/s regen.